School Books rip offs

bajer101 · 25-07-2015 12:08am #1

I ordered this book for my daughter today, I am looking forward to discovering what amazing new discovery in Maths that Folens have discovered that will justify them charging €16.40 for this book. Surely they can't be just rehashing existing knowledge and basically just copying and pasting that stuff and charging people this extortionate sum? This is crazy.
Educate Together schools are definitely a step in the right direction. But we have hopefully moved on. The next battle has to be about this nonsense of €16 maths books.

4zn76tysfajdxp · 25-07-2015 12:13am

2+2=5 now, apparently.

One eyed Jack · 25-07-2015 12:15am

bajer101 wrote: »

I ordered this book for my daughter today, I am looking forward to discovering what amazing new discovery in Maths that Folens have discovered that will justify them charging €16.40 for this book. Surely they can't be just rehashing existing knowledge and basically just copying and pasting that stuff and charging people this extortionate sum? This is crazy.
Educate Together schools are definitely a step in the right direction. But we have hopefully moved on. The next battle has to be about this nonsense of €16 maths books.

What's the problem again?

€16 is not extortionate for a school book. They're usually reasonably priced, and if you're complaining about the cost of school books at primary level, wait till your daughter is in college and you'll find out all about the extortionate cost of books.

juneg · 25-07-2015 12:16am

There's a lot of colour in the maths books compared to other subjects and they are among the biggest in size with more pages. Paper quality is usually good

I think it just comes down to cost of production for a big book to be honest

Mardy Bum · 25-07-2015 12:17am

If you think education is expensive try ignorance.

Make sure your daughter gets value from it for the year. Help her with homework, encourage her. It will all pay off.

Duckworth_Luas · 25-07-2015 12:19am

My reaction was to produce my own maths books for my kids.

The sound of victory is my son reciting his durpteen times tables.

TallGlass · 25-07-2015 12:21am

bajer101 wrote: »

Surely they can't be just rehashing existing knowledge and basically just copying and pasting that stuff and charging people this extortionate sum?

It's the same knowledge, just adjusted to make it easier for people to learn I would imagine. Just think of it like an OS, its the same system at the core just new features etc.. V.1 V.2 V.3 etc..

The question I would be asking myself is the book any good with to begin with if its on like v.7 then it might be good.

I am studying CCNA, have access to all the CCNA v.1 stuff, but they changed to v.2 so depending on what's added in / taking out, its just easier to by the book and know whats in the v.2 and use the v.1 stuff to assist as the core concepts of a subject will never change.

Samaris · 25-07-2015 12:22am

Crikey, if E16 is bad, wait until they hit college.

Books can easily be E60-90. It's a total disgrace still. Biology by...argh, I'll edit it in when I find it. It's on about the 16th Ed. every few years, and it rarely changes more than the blasted chapter numbers.

Samaris · 25-07-2015 12:22am

Crikey, if E16 is bad, wait until they hit college.

Books can easily be E60-90. It's a total disgrace still. Biology by Campbell and Reece. It's on about the 16th Ed. every few years, and it rarely changes more than the blasted chapter numbers.

wendell borton · 25-07-2015 12:28am

Samaris wrote: »

Crikey, if E16 is bad, wait until they hit college.

Books can easily be E60-90. It's a total disgrace still. Biology by...argh, I'll edit it in when I find it. It's on about the 16th Ed. every few years, and it rarely changes more than the blasted chapter numbers.

It can be had on amazon for ~£25 used, there should be no need of getting the newest edition.

bajer101 · 25-07-2015 12:43am

Rosemary Salty Druggist wrote: »

2+2=5 now, apparently.

What point are you trying to make? My point is that €16 is a crazy amount of money to charge for basically copying and pasting the work of other people.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What's the problem again?

€16 is not extortionate for a school book. They're usually reasonably priced, and if you're complaining about the cost of school books at primary level, wait till your daughter is in college and you'll find out all about the extortionate cost of books.

What sort of argument is that? €16 is not expensive, because it will be more expensive later! Please address the point about the €16 book that this thread is about. If you have an issue about the costs of third level costs, start your own thread.

Mardy Bum wrote: »

If you think education is expensive try ignorance.

Make sure your daughter gets value from it for the year. Help her with homework, encourage her. It will all pay off.

Cool story bro, but what has that got to do with the point I am arguing about having to pay more than €15 for a basic maths book? There are no copyright or patent issues here. I just paid €15 to buy a book that cost **** all to produce and which had nothing new.

RayM · 25-07-2015 12:45am

I saved a fortune last year by buying slightly older versions of college books. One particular book was around €50 new. I found a perfect second-hand copy for €3.99 (including postage) on Play.com.

Nib · 25-07-2015 12:45am

Who gives a fuck?

Use Facebook for this trivial shit.

Lau2976 · 25-07-2015 12:50am

Just pray she doesn't want to go to Art School! We had to get the usual expensive books and expensive art materials on top of that

25-07-2015 12:54am

Gerard Craughwell, the former TUI President, was on tv the other night (I assume you all watch Oireachtas Report on RTÉ tv at 3am). His whole speech was about the damage all these books are doing to kids' backs and he was passionately arguing for electronic books.

He is 100% correct, but I'm lost as to who pays for it when kids lose them and can't afford new ones, etc. Just glancing at many of these books, it doesn't take long to find factual inaccuracies in you have a good grasp of the subject. A lot of schoolbooks seem to be put together in a hurry without proofreading.

DeadHand · 25-07-2015 12:54am

Nib wrote: »

Who gives a fuck?

Use Facebook for this trivial shit.

Yeah, 'cos After Hours just isn't the place for trivial nonsense.

Now, excuse me while I have a read of the "Racist Aliens" thread.

retro:electro · 25-07-2015 12:54am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What's the problem again?

€16 is not extortionate for a school book. They're usually reasonably priced, and if you're complaining about the cost of school books at primary level, wait till your daughter is in college and you'll find out all about the extortionate cost of books.

I did four years in college and didn't buy one book. You get them all in the college library for free.

One eyed Jack · 25-07-2015 12:58am

bajer101 wrote: »

What point are you trying to make? My point is that €16 is a crazy amount of money to charge for basically copying and pasting the work of other people.

It's not just copying and pasting the work of other people though. Printing costs, distribution costs, staff costs to make sure the information is accurate and complies with the curriculum...

€16 is the price of two packs or smokes, or three pints, for a book that your daughter will get months of use out of. Is there a book scheme in your school you can avail of? That would make the cost of the books easier on you.

What sort of argument is that? €16 is not expensive, because it will be more expensive later! Please address the point about the €16 book that this thread is about. If you have an issue about the costs of third level costs, start your own thread.

Well it's all relative - you're cribbing about the cost of books now and I'm telling you €16 for a maths book is not by any standard extortionate. In fact there are moves on to cut down on the number of workbooks used by students at primary school level which are where the real profits are for publishers, go figure! Because you can't sell them on at all.

Cool story bro, but what has that got to do with the point I am arguing about having to pay more than €15 for a basic maths book? There are no copyright or patent issues here. I just paid €15 to buy a book that cost **** all to produce and which had nothing new.

Actually there are copyright issues. That's why teachers can't just go photocopying books willy nilly and handing them out to students. I don't think you're genuinely aware of how much a book costs to produce if you think it cost fcuk all to produce.

The math just doesn't add up.

PLL · 25-07-2015 1:02am

anna080 wrote: »

I did four years in college and didn't buy one book. You get them all in the college library for free.

+1

Why buy them when you can take them out of the library for a month?

One eyed Jack · 25-07-2015 1:05am

anna080 wrote: »

I did four years in college and didn't buy one book. You get them all in the college library for free.

I've no doubt obviously that’s what some people do, and even then it depends on the course you're doing, but it's far from the norm in fairness?

bajer101 · 25-07-2015 1:05am

Nib wrote: »

Who gives a fuck?

Use Facebook for this trivial shit.

I give a **** - that is why I created a thread to discuss the issues. A lot of other adults also care about this. I realise that it won't be an issue for you because it is a discussion about being the parent of a child and that usually involves finding a woman who will let you have sex with her. Good look with that. In the meantime, fúck off and let the grown ups talk.

SMJSF · 25-07-2015 1:14am

Mods -please move to parenting or education forum.

The_Valeyard · 25-07-2015 1:15am

bajer101 wrote: »

I give a **** - that is why I created a thread to discuss the issues. A lot of other adults also care about this. I realise that it won't be an issue for you because it is a discussion about being the parent of a child and that usually involves finding a woman who will let you have sex with her. Good look with that. In the meantime, fúck off and let the grown ups talk.

Well, I never!! I nearly dropped my monocle into my sherry.

Wouldn't this not be better discussed in the education forums, but in a more polite setting.

One eyed Jack · 25-07-2015 1:18am

bajer101 wrote: »

I give a **** - that is why I created a thread to discuss the issues. A lot of other adults also care about this. I realise that it won't be an issue for you because it is a discussion about being the parent of a child and that usually involves finding a woman who will let you have sex with her. Good look with that. In the meantime, fúck off and let the grown ups talk.

"Foul mouthed temperamental brats" forum...

Oh, they got rid of the thunder dome, didn't they :rolleyes:

Duckworth_Luas · 25-07-2015 1:27am

donegaLroad wrote: »

you might find this interesting

What about this then?

That's my subscription to Busy at Maths 3 out the window.

Pól and Síle better fcuk off with their subh

Anne and Barry, you Nazi cun....t...z

Ruu · 25-07-2015 1:28am

Folens and their schoolbook cartel! Unstoppable and above the law for decades.

Peregrine · 25-07-2015 1:31am

Mod note:

If you have a problem with a post, report it.

This thread is far too derailed to be moved now but can we please get back on topic?

OP, if you start a thread in a more appropriate forum, I'll close this. To be honest, I wouldn't know which forum would be appropriate for this if you're looking to discuss all schoolbooks.

osarusan · 25-07-2015 1:33am

Buy books in university? Are you mad? I went to university and never bought a single book.

Failed every f**king subject.

xLisaBx · 25-07-2015 1:35am

You don't even need to wait for college for book prices to go up from 16 euro. Wait untill first year in secondary school, 16 euro may not even get a second hand maths book. And higher level students usually need 3 maths books for junior cert!
Now multiply that by 11/12 subjects...

osarusan · 25-07-2015 1:37am

But seriously, the books isn't just the actual maths in it - it has (the publisher believes) been designed so the material will be accessible to the students, help the teacher present the material, facilitate learning and so on. All this might need to be revised based on stuff like teacher feedback, or because of decisions made by the Dept of Education, or their own research on the best practices in teaching maths.

That is going to be how maths books differ from each other, as the maths itself isn't going to change.

Not to say it's worth the money, but it's more than just the maths itself in there.

Ranchu · 25-07-2015 1:43am

The best thing to do in this situation is to buy a ropey convertable and get mad in to the golf. I'd also suggest listening to Billy Joel and having a long hard look at Miriam.

aaabbbb · 25-07-2015 1:48am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What's the problem again?

€16 is not extortionate for a school book. They're usually reasonably priced, and if you're complaining about the cost of school books at primary level, wait till your daughter is in college and you'll find out all about the extortionate cost of books.

My first year calculus book cost €65 and that was only for one module :cool:
We needed it every week and with 400+ others needing it too there wasn't a hope of getting your hands on a library copy

Also had to get a €60 chemistry book just so we could use the code in it for online tutorials that comes with the book :rolleyes:

spurious · 25-07-2015 2:00am

Get the parents committee to fund raise and organise a book rental scheme. All of the VEC/ETB schools I ever worked in had them.

Realt Dearg Sec · 25-07-2015 2:01am

OP when you're buying books for yourself, how much do they cost?

Not a NSA agent · 25-07-2015 2:07am

16 isnt bad. In secondary school I remember a lot of the books costing closer to 30.

Tin Foil Hat · 25-07-2015 2:33am

The Dept. of Education should commission textbooks, to which they would then hold the copyright. These should then be tendered out to printers (not publishing houses) to be mass produced and distributed through schools at cost price or a small profit. It would be a massive saving for parents. As e-books take over they would become completely free. There might be a small few books where this might not be possible (Novels, poetry, etc still in copyright) but it would definitely take the sting out of September for parents.

bajer101 · 26-07-2015 2:28am

OP here. My point is why I had to pay €16 for a book that has no copyright or patent. The publishers of these books appear to have entered into a cartel. Our government gave the schools funds to introduce a book rental scheme, but this scheme has become irrelevant as most of the text books have changed and are now "workbooks" which are exempt from this scheme. €16 for a workbook that cannot be sold on and which contains no new knowledge.

The comments about how much I spend on my books are irrelevant and miss the point. I have spent anything from 50c to €100 on a book. So what? I am talking about a €16 3rd class math book that is overpriced.

The comments about the cost of college books are also irrelevant. Again, my point is about the cost of primary school books.

The example I gave was that I paid €16 for a third class math book. There is not patent or copyright issue with the information in these type of books. €16 is a ridiculous amount of money to charge for these books,

And what is worse is that the new breed of schoolbooks seem to workbooks. You cannot sell them on or pass them on to younger relatives.

I paid €16 for a math book for my 8 year old child. This book contains information that was copied and pasted from existing knowledge and I cannot even gift that book to someone else. That's the crux of my argument.

endacl · 26-07-2015 2:35am

What would be a fair price?

€16 is SFA.

And, just out of interest, how does one patent a book?

You may have misunderstood the meaning of copyright. If your wondering what that is, the info will be on the 2nd or 3rd page in.

This post: © endacl, 2015. All rights reserved.

bajer101 · 26-07-2015 2:46am

€16 is a crazy price for a book that is just copying and pasting other people's work. A fair price for this type of book would be €5. There is nothing original in a third class math book. What is particularly disgusting is that most Primary school book have moved toward this model of "workbooks" which have dodged the governments book rental scheme. €16 for a book that can not be passed on to a younger sibling and which dodges the rental scheme. €16 for a workbook with absolutely no original content.

bajer101 · 26-07-2015 3:07am

endacl wrote: »

What would be a fair price?

€16 is SFA.

And, just out of interest, how does one patent a book?

You may have misunderstood the meaning of copyright. If your wondering what that is, the info will be on the 2nd or 3rd page in.

This post: © endacl, 2015. All rights reserved.

How many children do you have attending school? I am going to take a wild stab in the dark here and say zero. I'll take another guess and say that you think that €15 is not extortionate because you had to pay €50+ for some of your college books and you think that I shouldn't be bitching about these €16 books. If I am correct in my assumptions, then your argument is whataboutery. When you have to pay the €16 for a disposable book, then talk to me.

I'm actually ok and can afford this. I just have one child and the I only had to spend €120 for her books and stuff (excluding the book rental scheme). But there are lots of parents with a few kids who will face bills that will hit the many hundreds for these overpriced books. I have a real problem with these "Workbooks". Workbooks that cannot be be re-used. I manged to get an A in Maths all the way through school with books that could be handed down. These Workbooks are just a scam.

One eyed Jack · 26-07-2015 3:38am

Ahh look, you didn't pay €16 for a workbook. You paid it for a maths book. Your suggestion that you should only have to pay €5 for the book suggests you understand very little about publishing, writing, editing and auditing educational books. The staff still need to be paid, as does the author of the book.

And before you make any more assumptions about anyone who disagrees with your claims of extortion, I do have a child in primary education, and I paid about the same as yourself for their books, workbooks, copies, supplies, etc. I consider what I'm getting for my money to be one of the best investments I will ever make in a child's life, and €16 for a math book is something I'll gladly pay.

Wanna know what pisses me off though?

I'll tell you anyway (since you don't particularly care what I think, the feelings at least mutual) -

Parents who receive a €100 back to school allowance and instead of spending it on the child's educational needs, they spend it on themselves and their children are coming back to school with no uniform, no shoes, no breakfast, no lunch, no copies, no books, no schoolbag, not so much as a fcuking pencil.

Your issues with paying €16 for a schoolbook are waaaay down on my list of priorities, from my perspective at least. You want to have an adult conversation about children's education, how about we start with children who have no books at all coming to school, and why is that, and why do we tolerate that sort of nonsense?

DEFTLEFTHAND · 26-07-2015 4:08am

It's a good racket to get into, I remember in my own sec school my french teacher ran it through her husbands newsagents. Serious money to be made on top of his trade and her teachers salary.

zeffabelli · 26-07-2015 7:02am

Back to school costs the guts of €500 for 2nd class.

Nuts.

sconhome · 26-07-2015 7:16am

Write answers in pencil, end of year rub them out and use as a workbook for next year.

juneg · 26-07-2015 8:31am

AKW wrote: »

Write answers in pencil, end of year rub them out and use as a workbook for next year.

please tell me you're joking? The next child would be humiliated by his peers

Mint Aero · 26-07-2015 9:23am

16 euro isnt extortionate?

spurious · 26-07-2015 9:33am

juneg wrote: »

please tell me you're joking? The next child would be humiliated by his peers

He'd know the answers in advance though.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 26-07-2015 9:49am

OP, I'm loathe to join in here as you don't seem to grasp some basics no matter how often you hear them.

School maths books do have a copyright. They have authors and publishers who have rights. They are most certainly not just cut and paste. Indeed that attitude is quite insulting to people who put so much into developing formats to facilitate our children's learning.
As for the nonsense that they contain nothing new: in that case neither do English, History, Geography.....

€16 for a new primary school 3rd class maths book is not extortionate and it gets higher each year by the way.

And before you come back with the "how would you know" line you have been using, I have educated my 4 children.
Buy second hand. Help start a book rental scheme in the school if it bothers you.

I don't get what educate together has to do with the price of school books any more than with the price of eggs.

If your child knows the contents of that maths book by this time next year then it is money well spent

obezyana · 26-07-2015 10:27am

August is almost here, it is the month of school books, school uniforms, stationary, fees etc im gonna broke for the next month. Do i mind.......NO its my kids education. Yes its a pain in the ass the changing/updating of workbooks but this is the way its done now and to be fair the standard in schools is well better than it has been.

I dont get no back to school payments or uniform grants im a single dad that just has to suck it up and pay from my own pocket. 16euro for a workbook would be the least of my worries. We must look at the bigger picture and that is the education of our kids.

Menas · 26-07-2015 1:00pm

When I went to primary and secondary school back in the 70s and 80s we mostly had second hand books. The secondary school had a scheme where they accepted old books as trade ins. It was much needed cash for them.
The school did not insist that you had the latest version of each book which kept this second hand market alive.

But there were always some parents who insisted that their kids had new books only. And they were not the 'posh' parents. I never really understood that.

Mardy Bum · 26-07-2015 2:13pm

Giving out about the cost of a book that will be used for a year that amounts to the same price as a main course in a restaurant or a few packets of biscuits is laughable.

School Books rip offs

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