Gardai carrying Guns

Harry Bosch. · 08-07-2012 5:15pm

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I think some people presume that all Gardai would like to be armed, I have carried both the .38 and UZI in the past and its some responsibility to take on and I was never really at ease with it. I think that the current system of having RSU is excellent. What we need is more of these units. They are very well trained in what they do. The issue is that they may not always be available when needed especially for members in rural areas but its great progress thanks to the inspectorate Kathleen O Toole. I dont believe that every Garda wants to be armed or should be armed. Tazors maybe.

Excellent post Pappa Charlie. I think thats a question that people think they know the answer to, i think that should it go to a vote amongst members that it would be defeated. I like you agree with the RSU system, more units need to be introduced, then if a member wants the extra responsibility then the option of these units exists. Maybe if members in each district new these units were patroling and only minutes away they might not want to be armed themselves.

Markcheese · 08-07-2012 5:24pm

Just because a Garda is armed, it won't stop him/her being shot... Most of the time the Garda has no reason to think that the person they're stopping/checkpointing ect is armed ....and if the Garda is thinking that way their sanity won't last long.....

Mike87 · 08-07-2012 5:28pm

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I think given your previous comment you dont deserve a reply!

You know what. I give up. I really couldnt be bothered arguing about this anymore. Im leaving.

I came into this thread supporting 100% that we arm all AGS with pistols, but just not right now because there is more pressing issues such as cars/uniforms etc... I get the head ate of me over that idea.

I ask some simple questions about just how dangerous been a garda actually is. They get ignored. Then the two Garda that do finally answer me say "do a google search" and "you dont deserve a reply".

I used to support arming all AGS- but now I dont. Now Im going to go out of my way to protest it. Given their inabilitiy to answer some simple questions I now seriously doubt their competency in firearm handling.

Goodluck with your firearm acquirement goals in 2012....

Pappa Charlie · 08-07-2012 5:40pm

Mike87 wrote: »

You know what. I give up. I really couldnt be bothered arguing about this anymore. Im leaving.

I came into this thread supporting 100% that we arm all AGS with pistols, but just not right now because there is more pressing issues such as cars/uniforms etc... I get the head ate of me over that idea.

I ask some simple questions about just how dangerous been a garda actually is. They get ignored. Then the two Garda that do finally answer me say "do a google search" and "you dont deserve a reply".

I used to support arming all AGS- but now I dont. Given their inabilitiy to answer some simple questions I now seriously doubt their competency in firearm handling.

Goodluck with your firearm acquirement goals in 2012....

Hopefully we'll get some gun powder for those pistols!

Eru · 08-07-2012 6:01pm

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I disagree with you on that one, I have always found that when abroad in countries with armed police that they are less approchable to the public and have noted the lack of interaction with the public.

Too be fair we tend to look at the US, Mexico, Brazil, etc and other supposed violent places when we speak about armed police but we never consider the Australian police, Japanese or Italians for example.

Japan has one of the lowest gun crimes in the world and while the Japanes and Australian police are very approachable the Italian Carabinieri are well known and liked by both locals and tourists in Italy despite being well armed military police

Harry Bosch. wrote: »

i think that should it go to a vote amongst members that it would be defeated.

It was voted on via the GRA about 2 years ago and I think was passed by 60% in favour (of admittedly low responses so a pinch of salt)

Potential-Monke · 08-07-2012 6:24pm

Mike87 wrote: »

Another question I asked which also fell onto deaf ears was:

For any AGS reading this, what part of a Garda's weekly job does he feel incompetent/unsafe carrying out due to not having a firearm (and please dont tell us about how LE is run in other countries- we want to hear about Ireland).

One Garda cannot answer that question, it depends on the Garda and their previous experiences/interactions with different groups. Many will say going into a halting site where a domestic is taking place, others will say responding to a call where J. Bloggs is yet again coked off his head swinging a samurai sword/hatchet around an estate, or responding to a report of a shooting at a house where there is a drug war going on (very little of what happens in different situations is reported in the media, only serving members in the area are fully aware).

Then you have those members who work near the borders, where there is a high probability of people who genuinely hate you because of your job, being armed.

I'm not for every member being armed yet, but we certainly need an increase of RSU or ERU units, the facts at present would shock general Joe Public. I also believe that there should be at least 1 member in every car trained in and carrying a tazer. More effective and less lethal than the ASP and OC.

There are strict procedures and training in place for the current equipment (so much, that if taken wrongly could deter a new member from using them in the first place), this wouldn't change with the introduction of tazers, and reading the policies and procedures for the ERU on the use of tazers it is even stricter.

Chiparus · 08-07-2012 7:19pm

Most guards who are shot are hit by bullets from their own weapons.

deadwood · 08-07-2012 7:54pm

Chiparus wrote: »

Most guards who are shot are hit by bullets from their own weapons.

That's an intereting statistic. Have you any links to back this up?

Harry Bosch. · 08-07-2012 8:08pm

It was voted on via the GRA about 2 years ago and I think was passed by 60% in favour (of admittedly low responses so a pinch of salt)[/QUOTE]

I honestly thought that members would have voted no, very interesting, thanks.

charlemont · 08-07-2012 8:10pm

One big problem I can see from arming uniformed Gardaí would be this, Say for example a bloke robs a shop with a loaded handgun but he only wants the money has no particular plans to injure someone, Then he comes out running and sees a uniformed cop so if he knows all cops have guns, What's he going to do ? He will more than likely shoot to kill, Putting the cops life at risk.

Whereas currently he may just point the weapon in the hope the cop fears for his life and backs off.

The issues and punishments around crime need to be solved before all cops are armed, And it needs to be done soon, The country is gone crazy.

Harry Bosch. · 08-07-2012 8:55pm

charlemont wrote: »

One big problem I can see from arming uniformed Gardaí would be this, Say for example a bloke robs a shop with a loaded handgun but he only wants the money has no particular plans to injure someone, Then he comes out running and sees a uniformed cop so if he knows all cops have guns, What's he going to do ? He will more than likely shoot to kill, Putting the cops life at risk.

Whereas currently he may just point the weapon in the hope the cop fears for his life and backs off.

The issues and punishments around crime need to be solved before all cops are armed, And it needs to be done soon, The country is gone crazy.

He has a loaded handgun, he" only wants the money", "No particular plans to injure someone", points the handgun but may or maynot use it?? but the Cop has to back down!! Where is the deterant in your logic? You think an armed member confronting this poor pennyless thug and possibly shooting him is wrong?? Is this comedy night lads?

charlemont · 08-07-2012 9:07pm

Harry Bosch. wrote: »

He has a loaded handgun, he" only wants the money", "No particular plans to injure someone", points the handgun but may or maynot use it?? but the Cop has to back down!! Where is the deterant in your logic? You think an armed member confronting this poor pennyless thug and possibly shooting him is wrong?? Is this comedy night lads?

I could have came up with a heap of different scenarios but they will all boil down to the same thing, Having guns won't make you safer, It will just make you a target.

I see what you mean about a deterant, And no I never said it would be wrong to shoot the poor penniless thug..

troposphere · 08-07-2012 10:40pm

How does having a gun make you a target?

charlemont · 08-07-2012 10:57pm

troposphere wrote: »

How does having a gun make you a target?

If its a fight or flight situation and both parties have guns, Well its more likely to become a fight situation then.

I'v nothing against any well trained Guard having guns, But I would have a problem with some Keystone Cop wannabee having a gun on him/her and overreacting to a situation.

troposphere · 09-07-2012 4:22am

charlemont wrote: »

If its a fight or flight situation and both parties have guns, Well its more likely to become a fight situation then.

I'v nothing against any well trained Guard having guns, But I would have a problem with some Keystone Cop wannabee having a gun on him/her and overreacting to a situation.

Why should it not become a fight situation? Use a gun to commit a crime and you should be prepared to deal with the consequences. You seem to want to protect the perpetrator.

Zambia · 09-07-2012 5:39am

charlemont wrote: »

[
I'v nothing against any well trained Guard having guns, But I would have a problem with some Keystone Cop wannabee having a gun on him/her and overreacting to a situation.

so is that a vote for arming all members as all Garda are trained in the same place?

IRLConor · 09-07-2012 9:22am

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I have carried both the .38 and UZI in the past and its some responsibility to take on and I was never really at ease with it.

Out of curiosity, in your personal experience, would there have been anything which could have made you feel more at ease with carrying firearms on duty? More training (whether in accuracy/familiarisation or tactics or something else)? A better expectation of support from the organisation in the event you were involved in a shooting? A wider range of options, e.g. baton + spray + tazer + pistol?

For context, I shoot very regularly but I'm not a member of either the Gardai or the Defence Forces. Firearms are a part of my life, so I'm very much at ease with them though a large part of that is because I'll never have to point mine at anyone.

Eru · 09-07-2012 1:01pm

charlemont wrote: »

One big problem I can see from arming uniformed Gardaí would be this, Say for example a bloke robs a shop with a loaded handgun but he only wants the money has no particular plans to injure someone, Then he comes out running and sees a uniformed cop so if he knows all cops have guns, What's he going to do ? He will more than likely shoot to kill, Putting the cops life at risk.

Whereas currently he may just point the weapon in the hope the cop fears for his life and backs off.

The issues and punishments around crime need to be solved before all cops are armed, And it needs to be done soon, The country is gone crazy.

Thats all well and good if cops have options. People seem to put Gardai in the same position as a random person, we cannot simple decide to ignore a crime. hes committing an armed robbery, we act. Its that simple.

And the issue about arming Gardai = armed criminals. Surely then we should hand back our batons and spray and start carrying feathers and the criminals will stop carrying batons, guns, knives, stanly blades, broken bottles, knuckle dusters, swords and baseball bats????

perhaps if we stop carrying handcuffs criminals will stop struggling and resisting arrest?

And then maybe we can become the Republic of Utopia

Rawhead · 09-07-2012 1:18pm

Eru wrote: »

Thats all well and good if cops have options. People seem to put Gardai in the same position as a random person, we cannot simple decide to ignore a crime. hes committing an armed robbery, we act. Its that simple.

And the issue about arming Gardai = armed criminals. Surely then we should hand back our batons and spray and start carrying feathers and the criminals will stop carrying batons, guns, knives, stanly blades, broken bottles, knuckle dusters, swords and baseball bats????

perhaps if we stop carrying handcuffs criminals will stop struggling and resisting arrest?

And then maybe we can become the Republic of Utopia

If someone points a loaded sawn-off at a Garda he/she has the same options as everyone else i.e. do what the person holding the gun wants.
You can tackle him and maybe win the Scott medal or you can tackle him and win it posthumously, either way the scrote will do no more than 10 years and your kids grow up without a father/mother.
No one expects a unarmed Garda to tackle an armed robber.
Don't start the giving it the hero talk about having to dive on a gun just because of the job, because at the end of the day that's all it is, a job.

Eru · 09-07-2012 3:07pm

Rawhead wrote: »

If someone points a loaded sawn-off at a Garda he/she has the same options as everyone else i.e. do what the person holding the gun wants.
You can tackle him and maybe win the Scott medal or you can tackle him and win it posthumously, either way the scrote will do no more than 10 years and your kids grow up without a father/mother.
No one expects a unarmed Garda to tackle an armed robber.
Don't start the giving it the hero talk about having to dive on a gun just because of the job, because at the end of the day that's all it is, a job.

Unarmed members tackle armed criminals all the time, maybe you wouldn't but many would and have.

As for giving it the hero, its pretty simple you as a Gardai do whatever it is you can to tackle criminals. If they are armed you may well not jump on them but you follow / radio in / etc and thats more than Joe Soap does.

I dont know if your a member or not but if you are I hope your never dispatched to a violent call with me

charlemont · 09-07-2012 3:27pm

troposphere wrote: »

Why should it not become a fight situation? Use a gun to commit a crime and you should be prepared to deal with the consequences. You seem to want to protect the perpetrator.

Your wrong, I'v got respect for people who put themselves in harm's way, Cops Firemen, Paramedics etc so I'm not saying I want to protect the perpetrator.

I'm only trying to make a point that if some nut case with a gun knows that the cop running after him has a gun well then its more likely he will attempt to shoot the cop rather then try to flee.

Rawhead · 09-07-2012 7:12pm

Eru wrote: »

Unarmed members tackle armed criminals all the time, maybe you wouldn't but many would and have.

As for giving it the hero, its pretty simple you as a Gardai do whatever it is you can to tackle criminals. If they are armed you may well not jump on them but you follow / radio in / etc and thats more than Joe Soap does.

I dont know if your a member or not but if you are I hope your never dispatched to a violent call with me

I'd wager that most calls end up violent when you respond

charlemont · 09-07-2012 10:22pm

Zambia wrote: »

so is that a vote for arming all members as all Garda are trained in the same place?

Well yes I know ye are trained in the same place but I'd presume different ranking cops have done different training with guns. I just don't think the average uniformed guard walking the street needs to be armed but maybe allow them to be armed in the very rural areas where the nearest armed cop could be 30/40 or more Km's away.

peter65 · 09-07-2012 10:27pm

Look lads, I've had both the privilege and misfortune of having to use a firearm in my job. This idea of a cop drawing his gun and over reacting just doesn't happen. It's drilled into everyone that you draw a gun and can't justify you lose your job or go to jail. Look at all the shooting incidents involving gardai/police in the last 20 years and compare that to how many incidents involved over use of a baton or boot?

Pappa Charlie · 10-07-2012 12:21am

IRLConor wrote: »

Out of curiosity, in your personal experience, would there have been anything which could have made you feel more at ease with carrying firearms on duty? More training (whether in accuracy/familiarisation or tactics or something else)? A better expectation of support from the organisation in the event you were involved in a shooting? A wider range of options, e.g. baton + spray + tazer + pistol?

For context, I shoot very regularly but I'm not a member of either the Gardai or the Defence Forces. Firearms are a part of my life, so I'm very much at ease with them though a large part of that is because I'll never have to point mine at anyone.

to answer your question I dont think so, as another poster said you are well aware of the consequences of using it and I wouldnt have taken it on if I wasnt prepared to use it in the right circumstances and as per training. The novelty also wears off!

Manic Moran · 10-07-2012 7:25am

IRLConor wrote: »

For context, I shoot very regularly but I'm not a member of either the Gardai or the Defence Forces. Firearms are a part of my life, so I'm very much at ease with them though a large part of that is because I'll never have to point mine at anyone.

As someone who has pointed his firearm at people (And tried to shoot them... I missed) I haven't found it to be an issue. I am now at ease with firearms, and am confident that I know when not and when to use them. I wasn't always so at ease with them, though, it did take a bit of getting used to. However, after a year wearing a sidearm every day, I actually missed having it there when I finally took it off.

I think there are two requirements.
1) Be sufficiently trained that the firearm simply becomes another tool on the belt, which is used appropriately without having to think about it. If you have to either debate with yourself how to use the firearm, or even take the time to debate if you should use the firearm, you have been insufficiently trained.
2) Personal pet peeve:

It's drilled into everyone that you draw a gun and can't justify you lose your job or go to jail.

It's not quite what you said, but related: A 'fear of punishment' has led to casualties in the US military. Even in circumstances where, to the observer after the fact, it was pretty obvious that lethal force was appropriate, often times troops would be worried that some laywer reading the paperwork afterwords would come to their own conclusions about what they felt was reasonable, and they didn't want to go to jail. (There was little basis behind this belief, but the belief was there anyway).
If the Powers-that-are have done their job, they will have created a training program which meets requirement 1 above, and they are confident that the trainees are of such quality that they are now authorised to carry firearms. The corollary to that is that the Powers-that-are must make it clear to the personnel that the presumption of correctness then lies with those members of the force: That unless evidence is shown to the contrary of justification, their decision to use lethal force will be backed to the hilt by the Powers who conducted the training and certification to begin with. A life-or-death situation is not the moment for a member to be pondering the question of whether or not he can justify the action to others. All that matters is that he can justify it to himself so that he has the confidence to take the actions which can save his life or that of others: If he's been well trained, evidence to the contrary will not be forthcoming.

NTM

FGR · 10-07-2012 4:05pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

Even in circumstances where, to the observer after the fact, it was pretty obvious that lethal force was appropriate, often times troops would be worried that some laywer reading the paperwork afterwords would come to their own conclusions about what they felt was reasonable, and they didn't want to go to jail. (There was little basis behind this belief, but the belief was there anyway). NTM

Sad thing is that there are many Gardaí who feel this way about the pepper spray and baton. Nevermind a firearm..

K.Flyer · 15-07-2012 2:55pm

In light of the recent spate of armed robberies over the last couple of weeks, I wonder have many peoples opinions changed regarding fighting fire with fire. One thing for sure, since the cutting of Garda numbers and their overtime is it going to be open season for armed robberies like we have just seen.

Markcheese · 17-07-2012 7:20am

I'd rather it be a choice thing ... Ie. The garda has chosen to do fire-arm training and the force has decided this guy is suitable to carry fire arms as part of the job .... Leaving most Gardai not to have to worry about guns for 99.9 % of the job....

On a slightly related topic... Is there a gost estate somewhere in the middle of no-where( near templemore ???) that could be bought for buttons and converted to an urban firearms training ground ... Would have to be cheaper than building one .

:•)

redsurfer · 17-07-2012 10:46am

If you call 999 and look for help because it is an armed incident, we will respond. But who do you want to arrive to help you?
A: Gardai that arrive who are armed and able to deal with it ?
or
B: Gardai who will be unarmed and unable to defend themselves or protect you ?

We will do our job but allow us to defend ourselves and the public.

Gardai carrying Guns

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