M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Mc Love · 11-07-2017 11:49am

JCX BXC wrote: »

Go as far as Cahir? Jesus no.

No - what Marno said above is what I meant.

Truckermal · 11-07-2017 1:52pm

Mc Love wrote: »

No - what Marno said above is what I meant.

That diversion route Will be a disaster with trucks and slow moving vehicles so definitely go M8.

boardsuser1 · 11-07-2017 3:27pm

We have 2 former transport ministers in Varadkar and Donohoe who previously shot down the M20 for different reasons, now that they have reached the highest positions of power in the country and it doesn't affect their constituencies i can't for the life of me see this getting off the ground as long as those 2 are pulling the purse strings.

Copper_pipe · 11-07-2017 8:52pm

That Diversion via Doneraile is already in place. Just passed it there

pigtown · 11-07-2017 10:11pm

Chambers of commerce report on the economic impact of the road has been presented to the government. It claims that up to 5,400 jobs could be created and 118 accidents per year prevented should it go ahead.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/cork-limerick-motorway-could-create-5-400-jobs-report-says-1.3151238?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/259284/report-shows-potential-game-changing-impact-of-limerick-cork-motorway.html#.WWTslfPO0bg.twitter

marno21 · 11-07-2017 10:24pm

pigtown wrote: »

Chambers of commerce report on the economic impact of the road has been presented to the government. It claims that up to 5,400 jobs could be created and 118 accidents per year prevented should it go ahead.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/cork-limerick-motorway-could-create-5-400-jobs-report-says-1.3151238?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/259284/report-shows-potential-game-changing-impact-of-limerick-cork-motorway.html#.WWTslfPO0bg.twitter

Whatever about the jobs part - the second part of that makes it a no brainer.

Leo has mentioned this more times in a positive light in the last few weeks than Enda ever did - which is a start.

Limerick74 · 11-07-2017 11:40pm

marno21 wrote: »

Whatever about the jobs part - the second part of that makes it a no brainer.

Leo has mentioned this more times in a positive light in the last few weeks than Enda ever did - which is a start.

Link to Executive Summary Report https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/m20-executive-summary-june-2017.pdf

marno21 · 11-07-2017 11:54pm

Limerick74 wrote: »

Link to Executive Summary Report https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/m20-executive-summary-june-2017.pdf

Cheers for that, didn't think it would've made the RTE website. Good to see.

Re the report: the very definition of a "no brainer". We don't seem to do no brainers in Ireland though do we

neddynasty · 12-07-2017 9:33am

marno21 wrote: »

Whatever about the jobs part - the second part of that makes it a no brainer.

Leo has mentioned this more times in a positive light in the last few weeks than Enda ever did - which is a start.

I've heard the M20 mentioned in the media more times in the last 4 weeks than in the previous 4 years. I think momentum around the M20 is starting to build and the road won't be ignored for much longer.

boardsuser1 · 12-07-2017 9:48am

My never ending quest to get an answer from one of these 2 goes on :pac::pac::pac:

https://twitter.com/CorkTruckDriver/status/885044823119601664

Mc Love · 12-07-2017 9:51am

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

My never ending quest to get an answer from one of these 2 goes on :pac::pac::pac:

https://twitter.com/CorkTruckDriver/status/885044823119601664

I was having a frank discussion on Facebook - most of the posters were from Buttevant/attend the fair and got the usual arguments that its the oldest horse fair etc, its only one day. Oh and supposedly it isnt organised, people just turn up. I really dont know why they cant move it to a field close by, like they do with fairs/shows, like the charleville/cappamore/ploughing championships/

boardsuser1 · 12-07-2017 9:55am

Mc Love wrote: »

I was having a frank discussion on Facebook - most of the posters were from Buttevant/attend the fair and got the usual arguments that its the oldest horse fair etc, its only one day. Oh and supposedly it isnt organised, people just turn up. I really dont know why they cant move it to a field close by, like they do with fairs/shows, like the charleville/cappamore/ploughing championships/

Personally as someone on that road regularly i hate this bloody fair.

Oldest or not, no one is trying to stop the fair from happening, just as you say, move it into a bloody field :mad:

One day or not, those roads for the diversion are just as bad if not worse than Buttevant pre refurbushment.

But sure we are talking common sense here, not very common it seems with the organisers :rolleyes:

Mc Love · 12-07-2017 10:36am

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

Personally as someone on that road regularly i hate this bloody fair.

Oldest or not, no one is trying to stop the fair from happening, just as you say, move it into a bloody field :mad:

One day or not, those roads for the diversion are just as bad if not worse than Buttevant pre refurbushment.

But sure we are talking common sense here, not very common it seems with the organisers :rolleyes:

Yeah i've had the pleasure of taking the detour last year both ways and it wasnt fun, never mind what it must be like for a haulier/bus driver, both of whom I was stuck behind. An artic and a bus trying to pass each other, took ten minutes, the road was that narrow!

boardsuser1 · 12-07-2017 3:31pm

Mc Love wrote: »

Yeah i've had the pleasure of taking the detour last year both ways and it wasnt fun, never mind what it must be like for a haulier/bus driver, both of whom I was stuck behind. An artic and a bus trying to pass each other, took ten minutes, the road was that narrow!

I've also been a bus driver prior to hauling on that diversion also, frustrating is an understatement.

A serious accident will happen there involving a truck and/or bus yet.

I'm avoiding it this time around but i usually cringe when i know i have to head down that way in my truck.

Worse though when you have 53 people sitting behind you.

Did you take the detour during the road works was it?

betistuc · 12-07-2017 3:44pm

" move it into a bloody field"

No bars or booze in a field

boardsuser1 · 12-07-2017 3:50pm

betistuc wrote: »

" move it into a bloody field"

No bars or booze in a field

Plenty of fields near the bars and booze.

Mc Love · 12-07-2017 5:24pm

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

Did you take the detour during the road works was it?

Nope during the horse fair, had to go to CUH for an appointment and taking the Mitchelstown route would have added on a fair bit.

betistuc wrote: »

" move it into a bloody field"

No bars or booze in a field

Dont think that matters, as there was a certain ethnic group down there in numbers this morning.

Some of the residents on the main street must hate it as some of the stalls etc are right on top of their doors/windows etc

boardsuser1 · 12-07-2017 5:35pm

Mc Love wrote: »

Nope during the horse fair, had to go to CUH for an appointment and taking the Mitchelstown route would have added on a fair bit.

Dont think that matters, as there was a certain ethnic group down there in numbers this morning.

Some of the residents on the main street must hate it as some of the stalls etc are right on top of their doors/windows etc

Probably part of their culture :rolleyes:

marno21 · 12-07-2017 6:07pm

The main issue to me isn't the horse fair, it's the fact that the N20 still runs through Buttevant and traffic between the 2nd and 3rd cities is obstructed.

There would be no issue with the fair if it was blocking the R526 through Buttevant

boardsuser1 · 12-07-2017 6:13pm

marno21 wrote: »

The main issue to me isn't the horse fair, it's the fact that the N20 still runs through Buttevant and traffic between the 2nd and 3rd cities is obstructed.

There would be no issue with the fair if it was blocking the R526 through Buttevant

How the county council/Gardai/RSA can even approve it is mind boggling.

Mc Love · 13-07-2017 8:52am

They probably do it out of public safety more than anything. Friend of mine drove through it after the fair last night and said it was a garbage truck exploded and the council just gave up. Couldnt even imagine what it is like for people that live there and dont like the event taking place

boardsuser1 · 13-07-2017 5:39pm

I ain't holding my breath here.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/500m-extra-per-year-boosts-cork-limerick-motorway-hopes-454682.html

marno21 · 14-07-2017 12:12am

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

I ain't holding my breath here.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/500m-extra-per-year-boosts-cork-limerick-motorway-hopes-454682.html

There is far too much momentum behind the M20 now, it'll likely be progressed with the Capital Plan review. It's the most discussed and pushed road scheme at the minute, and Varadkar isn't going to gain anything by advancing the N5 Ballaghaderreen-Strokestown or similar instead of it.

Hopefully full planning to resume in 2018 and ready to go for 2022.

betistuc · 14-07-2017 3:33pm

marno21 wrote: »

There is far too much momentum behind the M20 now, it'll likely be progressed with the Capital Plan review. It's the most discussed and pushed road scheme at the minute, and Varadkar isn't going to gain anything by advancing the N5 Ballaghaderreen-Strokestown or similar instead of it.

Hopefully full planning to resume in 2018 and ready to go for 2022.

You do mean we'll be driving on it by 2022...... don't you!!!!:o

boardsuser1 · 14-07-2017 3:50pm

betistuc wrote: »

You do mean we'll be driving on it by 2022...... don't you!!!!:o

Knowing Ireland it'll be 2032 :rolleyes:

touts · 14-07-2017 4:51pm

betistuc wrote: »

You do mean we'll be driving on it by 2022...... don't you!!!!:o

We're a few months away from an election. So the outgoing government publish an infrastructure plan that contains the M20.

After the next election it will turn out that the money won't be available because of economic downturn or overruns in a project in Dublin so the M20 will be mothballed

And then in a few years we'll be a few months away from an election. So the outgoing government publish an infrastructure plan that contains the M20.

After that election it will turn out that the money won't be available because of economic downturn or overruns in a project in Dublin so the M20 will be mothballed

And then in a few years........

We're trapped in a political version of the Twilight Zone.

boardsuser1 · 14-07-2017 5:52pm

touts wrote: »

We're a few months away from an election. So the outgoing government publish an infrastructure plan that contains the M20.

After the next election it will turn out that the money won't be available because of economic downturn or overruns in a project in Dublin so the M20 will be mothballed

And then in a few years we'll be a few months away from an election. So the outgoing government publish an infrastructure plan that contains the M20.

After that election it will turn out that the money won't be available because of economic downturn or overruns in a project in Dublin so the M20 will be mothballed

And then in a few years........

We're trapped in a political version of the Twilight Zone.

Do you think Leo will go to the country that quickly?

source · 14-07-2017 5:58pm

touts wrote: »

We're a few months away from an election. So the outgoing government publish an infrastructure plan that contains the M20.

After the next election it will turn out that the money won't be available because of economic downturn or overruns in a project in Dublin so the M20 will be mothballed

And then in a few years we'll be a few months away from an election. So the outgoing government publish an infrastructure plan that contains the M20.

After that election it will turn out that the money won't be available because of economic downturn or overruns in a project in Dublin so the M20 will be mothballed

And then in a few years........

We're trapped in a political version of the Twilight Zone.

But isn't the next scheduled general election in 2021? So that would be 48 months ... ah yeah, just around the corner so.

boardsuser1 · 14-07-2017 6:07pm

source wrote: »

But isn't the next scheduled general election in 2021? So that would be 48 months ... ah yeah, just around the corner so.

supply and confidence agreement is for 3 years.

source · 14-07-2017 6:38pm

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

supply and confidence agreement is for 3 years.

It might be, but everyone seems to be pretty happy overall with one or two exceptions. I can see this government going the full term.

I also don't think there's an appetite for an election only 3 years after the last one.

Edit: besides we're only one year since the agreement, which means there's still 2 to run in the agreement. Plenty of time for this to happen.

JupiterKid · 14-07-2017 7:06pm

Im pretty confident at this stage of the M20 being prioritised and progressing in the next couple of years. In terms of schemes not yet committed, outside of Dublin, it's easily the most pressing/urgent infrastructure scheme around and I think the current Govt understand that.

Water John · 14-07-2017 7:13pm

The point was made before that, in national strategy terms, the better value is to develop Cork-Lim and maybe to Gal as a counter balance to Dublin. This will ease the pressure and cost within Dublin.
A motorway link is essential and valuable.

marno21 · 15-07-2017 12:10am

Lads, a few years ago we were spending €500m a month at times on new roads.

Its clear Enda & Noonan had no interest whatseoever in road building. It was the quietest period for new roads building in decades.

Leo may have a different outlook on this. He has mentioned the M20 and Metro North (in the sense of building them as opposed to trotting out rubbish about excessive costs) more times in the last month than Enda did in a whole 6 years. Enda is the fella who said that Cork people should be glad they got a motorway to Dublin and not to get greedy.

The M20 is fast becoming a major political issue for the Munster area. When the M17/M18 opens it'll be clear as day as the big missing link in the national roads network, and its one of the most important links in the country. Its also highly important for the development of the area and the area will only stagnate without it.

road_high · 15-07-2017 12:43am

Meanwhile he nursed along the N5 from obscurity and probably the M17 also !

Water John · 15-07-2017 11:17am

Michael Noonan saw no reason to travel to Cork.

marno21 · 15-07-2017 4:03pm

road_high wrote: »

Meanwhile he nursed along the N5 from obscurity and probably the M17 also !

Ringo will probably see the remaining N5 project through. Given the lack of pipeline national roads scheme it'll probably be done anyway, it's not like there's many other projects far ahead of it that can get the money instead.

Water John wrote: »

Michael Noonan saw no reason to travel to Cork.

Bit much for him to be so much anti-M20 and so pro-Limerick business when the Limerick Chamber are crying out for the M20.

Not sure how building a motorway to Galway is more advantageous for Limerick than building a motorway to Cork. If anything it brings Shannon Airport etc closer to Galway.

betistuc · 15-07-2017 8:09pm

"Leo may have a different outlook on this. He has mentioned the M20 and Metro North (in the sense of building them as opposed to trotting out rubbish about excessive costs) more times in the last month than Enda did in a whole 6 years"

Can I just quickly ask, what are these motorways to the North West and North that Leo was on about very recently? North one is A5 presumably!

Leonard Hofstadter · 15-07-2017 9:09pm

betistuc wrote: »

"Leo may have a different outlook on this. He has mentioned the M20 and Metro North (in the sense of building them as opposed to trotting out rubbish about excessive costs) more times in the last month than Enda did in a whole 6 years"

Can I just quickly ask, what are these motorways to the North West and North that Leo was on about very recently? North one is A5 presumably!

Yes, I'd love to know the same, I can only assume it's the A5 to Derry or something like that.

In all fairness, the North West does not have the population density to justify a motorway anywhere. Good quality single carriageway and/or 2+2 bypasses will be more than adequate, and of course should be done where necessary. If they upped the speed limit on the 2+2s to 110 then there would be even less of a disadvantage over not having a motorway - after all most dual carriageways in the UK are similar in standard to a 2+2 yet they are deemed suitable for 70 mph or 113 km/h so no reason why we couldn't allow 110 on our 2+2s.

The M20 is easily the biggest gap on our road network, it's beyond embarrassing that there is such a poor standard of road between our second and third biggest cities. I get the feeling from what Varadkar and the others in Government have been saying that this has built up enough momentum for something proper to be done about this in the next 2-3 years, but being realistic we're still not going to have a motorway between Cork and Limerick until 2025 at the earliest.

Water John · 15-07-2017 9:27pm

I think most would be happy to know it's coming and a definite timeline.

marno21 · 16-07-2017 12:31am

captainspeed wrote: »

Yes, I'd love to know the same, I can only assume it's the A5 to Derry or something like that.

In all fairness, the North West does not have the population density to justify a motorway anywhere. Good quality single carriageway and/or 2+2 bypasses will be more than adequate, and of course should be done where necessary. If they upped the speed limit on the 2+2s to 110 then there would be even less of a disadvantage over not having a motorway - after all most dual carriageways are similar in standard to a 2+2 yet they are deemed suitable for 70 mph or 113 km/h so no reason why we couldn't allow 110 on our 2+2s.

The M20 is easily the biggest gap on our road network, it's beyond embarrassing that there is such a poor standard of road between our second and third biggest cities. I get the feeling from what Varadkar and the others in Government have been saying that this has built up enough momentum for something proper to be done about this in the next 2-3 years, but being realistic we're still not going to have a motorway between Cork and Limerick until 2025 at the earliest.

The motorway to the north west is the A5 and the N14 dualling in Donegal. It's being done to 2+2 standard. Varadkar has reportedly committed £465m to it, not from the transport budget.

Donegal Storm · 16-07-2017 1:26am

captainspeed wrote: »

In all fairness, the North West does not have the population density to justify a motorway anywhere. Good quality single carriageway and/or 2+2 bypasses will be more than adequate, and of course should be done where necessary. If they upped the speed limit on the 2+2s to 110 then there would be even less of a disadvantage over not having a motorway - after all most dual carriageways in the UK are similar in standard to a 2+2 yet they are deemed suitable for 70 mph or 113 km/h so no reason why we couldn't allow 110 on our 2+2s.

Derry/Letterkenny/Strabane triangle has a population of ~150k, there's only handful of other locations in the country that compare yet transport links are absolutely pitiful and comparable to third world. Fully agreed that the M20 is a bigger priority but once it's finally built the NW will be the glaring gap in our modern transport network.

Kevwoody · 16-07-2017 10:58am

Donegal Storm wrote: »

Derry/Letterkenny/Strabane triangle has a population of ~150k, there's only handful of other locations in the country that compare yet transport links are absolutely pitiful and comparable to third world. Fully agreed that the M20 is a bigger priority but once it's finally built the NW will be the glaring gap in our modern transport network.

Totally agree 100% with this. The road from the border at Aughnacloy the whole way to Letterkenny is an absolute disgrace. After the M20 it should be top priority.

marno21 · 20-07-2017 6:32pm

Lot of newspaper articles about the Indecon report by Limerick/Cork chambers in the last week, however there is one mistake being widely reported.

A lot of reports, including that by RTE, state that the M20 will reap €128m worth of economic benefits to the exchequer. This is wrong. The figure is actually €128m per annum.

An initial investment of €700m-1bn will result in that. That's an annual return on investment of between 12% and 16% per annum, in addition to the other facts such as reducing the number of accidents along the corridor by 118 per year, yes 118!

I'd love to see the figures on the Listowel bypass to say that it is deserving of funding vs this. Impressively depressing how this is a scheme not considered worthwhile.

boardsuser1 · 20-07-2017 6:37pm

marno21 wrote: »

Lot of newspaper articles about the Indecon report by Limerick/Cork chambers in the last week, however there is one mistake being widely reported.

A lot of reports, including that by RTE, state that the M20 will reap €128m worth of economic benefits to the exchequer. This is wrong. The figure is actually €128m per annum.

An initial investment of €700m-1bn will result in that. That's an annual return on investment of between 12% and 16% per annum, in addition to the other facts such as reducing the number of accidents along the corridor by 118 per year, yes 118!

I'd love to see the figures on the Listowel bypass to say that it is deserving of funding vs this. Impressively depressing how this is a scheme not considered worthwhile.

Now that is interesting.

It'd pay for itself in about 8 years.

marno21 · 20-07-2017 6:41pm

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

Now that is interesting.

It'd pay for itself in about 8 years.

Dunkettle Interchange would pay for itself within 2/3 years and it's being advanced at glacier rate.

Same with M28.

Low benefit political projects took centre stage under the Kenny government. Maybe there might be a change now.

Water John · 20-07-2017 6:43pm

Thanks Marno. Haven't seen their report but it possibly doesn't include the concept of the duo of cities linked by motorway, acting as a counterbalance to Dublin in national terms. This will ease infrastructure and costs in the Dublin area.

Ha, you could argue and you'd be right that, it's in Dublin's interest to have the motorway M20 completed.

marno21 · 20-07-2017 6:46pm

Water John wrote: »

Thanks Marno. Haven't seen their report but it possibly doesn't include the concept of the duo of cities linked by motorway, acting as a counterbalance to Dublin in national terms. This will ease infrastructure and costs in the Dublin area.

Ha, you could argue and you'd be right that, it's in Dublin's interest to have the motorway M20 completed.

Forgot to attach the report; some bedtime reading: https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/m20-executive-summary-june-2017.pdf

boardsuser1 · 20-07-2017 6:48pm

marno21 wrote: »

Dunkettle Interchange would pay for itself within 2/3 years and it's being advanced at glacier rate.

Same with M28.

Low benefit political projects took centre stage under the Kenny government. Maybe there might be a change now.

Kenny's "Cork got its motorway to Dublin" remark was the straw that broke the camels back with people in both Cork and Limerick.

I haven't looked at the plans as yet on the Dunkettle interchange.

I think the uproar in Rochestown is partially to blame for the delay there.

You'd think with the government banging on about emissions so much that this road being built would actually help reduce it all.

Water John · 20-07-2017 6:54pm

The outer North Link should also be completed as part of the puzzle.

marno21 · 20-07-2017 7:06pm

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

Kenny's "Cork got its motorway to Dublin" remark was the straw that broke the camels back with people in both Cork and Limerick.

I haven't looked at the plans as yet on the Dunkettle interchange.

I think the uproar in Rochestown is partially to blame for the delay there.

You'd think with the government banging on about emissions so much that this road being built would actually help reduce it all.

Galway has 3 motorways now. Cork has 1. Sense?

Shameful as well that there's no plans to advance the N25 between Carrigtwohill and Youghal at present. None whatsoever.

Water John wrote: »

The outer North Link should also be completed as part of the puzzle.

It'll have to be. The M20 can't finish at Blackpool given that most cars on the M20 will have no business in Blackpool (airport, West Cork, Cobh, Ringaskiddy, UCC/CIT, CUH etc)

M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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