Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

24567…57

Comments

  • #52
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    bk wrote: »
    Well I gave Leap a thorough testing in Dublin City over the past two hours and so far it only gets a barely passing market. Lots of trouble with it.

    The system is still in testing, and from what I have seen there is certainly a difference in behavior of those cards sent out versus the ones which have been sold in shops when they clearly should not have been.
    Then yesterday I went into Londis next store to the Costa Coffee and Starbucks by College Green. They had never heard of the Leap card, but I told them it was just like the LUAS card and could they try. They obliged and to every ones surprise it worked fine and they could activate it and top it up.

    Why would they? The card has not been released yet and as such the full details have not been distributed to retailers. There was a pilot with a shop in Malahide and a couple of others at the end of last week being test shops to top up the leap card, but there has been no official launch to retailers.
    However they made a mistake. While I asked for €10 top up, they charged it like it was a new card (but I didn't get a new card), with €5 deposit, so I only ended up with €5 credit. So far I'd spent €15 on this and ended up with only €5 credit.

    It's not surprising they made a mistake, seeing as the card is not released yet and the documentation and instructions for anything have not been sent to the vast majority of readers. It's unfair to judge them like it's a full launch when the NTA have been very clear it is still in a test phase.
    Interestingly the very nice guys in Londis were very interested in this new card and we spent a few minutes chatting about it. At first they assumed you would get a cheaper fare for using multiple trips. When I told them it doesn't work like that, you pay for each trip separately, they were very disappointed and said "what is the point so?"

    Wait until you see the final fare structure, it has not been decided yet, as stated in the letter from Transport for Ireland. There are many new features to come to the card that will not be there at launch day, but once again I repeat this is a test phase, so stop judging it like a finished product, because it is something is is not.
    At Connolly I tried the Leap card in the IR ticket machines, but they didn't recognise it. I can confirm the same at Tara and Pearse station ticket machines. So it seems the IR machines aren't compatible with Leap yet. This is a very big pity for people who normally use DART, Rail to travel. They have to go to Luas machines or DB shops to top up. Hopefully this is just a temporary issue.

    I am told there is more to this than meets the eye, and there is no reason why LEAP cards cannot work on IR ticket machines, this is an issue between the NTA and IR rather than a technical issue I am led to believe. No idea what it is. I assume the IR smart card will be discontinued soon or will they both run in tandem?

    However I was able to tag on to the DART at Connolly no problem and Tag Off at Pearse no problem, so it seems the gates have no problem reading and using the Leap cards.
    Good news, I was able to use the Leap card on LUAS and DART without taking the card out of the wallet. Even with the Dublin Bikes card in the same wallet. Didn't try it on the bus in my wallet, don't want to give the drivers a heart attack until they are use to it.

    I still would use it away from any other smart cards though, I have an Oyster in my wallet and it plays merry hell if I try to use it over a reader with my now redundant IR smart card.
    So after my adventures, not including the unnecessary journeys, I'm down nearly €10 due to badly trained store and bus staff.

    So basically, pretty much what you'd expect from a test phase no? This is the whole reason they wanted to limit this to 500 people rather than making a free for all, so people could identify what problems there were, point them out, feed them back to the NTA and get them resolved with the relevant companies, departments, technologies before the live release.

    You really need to start treating this as a beta or a test product, and expect to find bugs, because that is exactly what the whole exercise is for. If you don't like the fact there are problems and want things to be perfect straight away, then testing things obviously isn't for you.

    In any case, us fully prepared, handpicked testers got 20 euro credit pre-loaded onto the card, so the loss of cash is not an issue to any of us, and if you do complain about being overcharged I doubt the NTA will refund you as they will simply tell you that you knew it was a test, you knew it shouldn't be available to the public but you got one anyway = your own risk.

    I doubt the NTA will listen to you anyway. I know at least one person who's bought in shop Leap Card who has been disabled since thy bought it. Can't say I have any sympathy to be honest.


  • #53
    AngryLips
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,761 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    bk wrote: »
    Oh, not at all, I'm very excited about this.

    That is why I'm giving my feedback, to help it be the best it can be.

    I guess it's impossible to say if your experience will be typical for the new user until the card is actually launched. Although I expect that whoever is project managing this will be able to accept or discount your experience straight off based on your detailed account.


  • #54
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    devnull, I think that your criticism of me is more then a little unfair.

    Of course I know that it is still testing and I'm treating it exactly like a test and I'm testing it in exactly the way I've tested all my own IT projects over the years.

    This is why, on top of the €10 in lost deposit and bus ticket, I also made about €10 of unnecessary journeys, on Luas, Bus and Dart, just to try it out and test it.

    As expected I found a number of bugs, I've documented and reported those bugs to the NTA and hopefully they will be able to use my experience to iron out those bugs.

    I don't expect a refund for doing this. I did this to help try it out and make it the most successful project it can be.

    Surely it is better to find out these problems early, by a few of us who managed to buy a card before it was officially launched and who are enthusiastic about the project, then by thousands of people when it is launched?

    Some of the issues I found might not have been discovered by the 500 testers as their test isn't "real world". They didn't get their card the way most people will (direct from the NTA pre activated, versus in a shop like most people) and they might never top theirs up.

    I will be very mad if the NTA deactivate my card. While I don't mind losing €20 in the testing, I've now topped it up with another €30. If they deactivate it without a refund, that would not be on at all.


  • #55
    Stevek101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭Stevek101


    bk wrote: »
    So in summary, lots of bugs in the system:

    1) Store staff are inadequately trained in the card.
    2) Luas machines should be able to activate and top up even inactivated cards.
    3) Bus Drivers are inadequately trained in the card (e.g. charged twice).
    4) The three times I used it on the bus, it took longer then to pay by cash. This card might actually increase bus dwell times rather hen reduce it.
    5) The beep at the end of the transaction on the bus needs to be much louder.
    6) The Irish Rail ticket machines don't recognise the card and you can't top it up on them.

    1) Store staff haven't been trained as the card hasn't been officially launched yet.

    2) LUAS machines do not have that functionality as part of the trial.

    3) Drivers have all received leaflets and training. However, I have experienced some drivers who have never used the card before and that takes a little longer, which I think is pretty understandable.

    You also can get the driver to annul a fare once you are in the same fare stage and it is under two minutes. That would rectify your charging twice problem.

    4) Not much to say here, again it is in the trial phase.

    5) Transaction information appears on the ticket machine, beep is fairly irrelevant.

    6)Irish Rail machines are not part of the trial.


  • #56
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Thanks for the feedback Steve
    Stevek101 wrote: »
    You also can get the driver to annul a fare once you are in the same fare stage and it is under two minutes. That would rectify your charging twice problem.

    Good to know, but I wouldn't have noticed had it not for him printing the receipt and me knowing how much I had already spent.

    Only one transaction was actually on the receipt, I just knew that my balance was twice less what it should have been.

    I don't think anyone else would notice this in normal circumstances.
    Stevek101 wrote: »
    5) Transaction information appears on the ticket machine, beep is fairly irrelevant.

    In the three times I've used it, it really isn't obvious when the transaction is finished and you can move the card off. And it should be pointed out that I was looking very closely at the machine, while trying not to slow the driver and other people down.

    The display is small, set back at an angle and hard to read.

    Each time it took a nod from the driver before I moved off.

    Also I'm not sure, but I don't think the ticket machine screen shows you the final balance on the card, once the transaction has been completed.

    Perhaps it is much more obvious in a controlled test environment. But in the "real world" of trying not delay the driver and other passengers, rain, shopping, etc. it is much less obvious.

    I know this won't be changed now due to expense, but if we are going to stick to this fare system on buses, then it would have been better if the ticket machines had larger, at least three line, displays.

    Put your card on the reader, first line displays your current balance.
    Driver deducts fare second line shows fare cost, three line shows new balance e.g.:

    Current Balance : €30.00
    Fare : € 1.65
    New Balance : €28.35

    Of course this all becomes irrelevant if DB move to a flat fare.


  • #57
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    BTW does anyone know, can you pay for two €1.65 fares using Leap. i.e. for you and your partner?


  • #58
    Stevek101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭Stevek101


    Place your card on the target and look at the screen on the machine it'll show your current balance or SV (Stored Value), then simple request your fare. The fare then appears on screen with the location of final stage that fare will carry you too. You can be sure then correct fare has been deducted, if there are any issues with the fare you can get the driver to annul it.

    The last five transactions regardless of what operator they were on (DB, Luas or IÉ) will appear on the Card Status receipt. You can request this off a DB driver if you wish.

    If the transaction did not appear you were not charged twice. Also if there was a second transaction charged you would of received a ticket with "ITS PURSE USED" instead of "Adult Single". Which answers your question. You can purchase a ticket for a Child or Adult using your card and they will get a paper ticket.


  • #59
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Stevek101 wrote: »
    Place your card on the target and look at the screen on the machine it'll show your current balance or SV (Stored Value), then simple request your fare. The fare then appears on screen with the location of final stage that fare will carry you too. You can be sure then correct fare has been deducted, if there are any issues with the fare you can get the driver to annul it.

    I've noticed the initial Stored Value and I've noticed the 1.65 fare, but I don't think there is a final balance shown.

    In the case of the double charge, I didn't think or remember seeing the double charge on the screen, I would have noticed had it said 3.30.

    I think what happened is the driver charged 1.65 and then charged 1.65 a second time. There really wasn't any on screen indication of this double charge.

    What made me suspicious was that this time the machine printed a ticket receipt, while it hadn't on my previous bus trip with leap.
    The receipt said the amount debited was only 1.65, and my purse balance was now only 5 cent. I knew in this case that my balance should have been more, as I was only using the card for the second time and I knew exactly what it should be, but I'm certain I wouldn't be looking this closely normally and I don't think most people would notice.
    Stevek101 wrote: »
    The last five transactions regardless of what operator they were on (DB, Luas or IÉ) will appear on the Card Status receipt. You can request this off a DB driver if you wish.

    Great, but you would only request this if something went wrong and my point is I don't think most people would notice something went wrong. I certainly don't think we want people requesting the last five transactions every time they get on the bus.

    Perhaps a simple solution is any time this ticket is printed (due to a non standard fare) it automatically lists the last 5 transactions. This way it would be easy to notice a double charge like this.

    I have to say, it really wasn't obvious and it will make me very cautious about using the Leap card on buses in future.

    Can I assume if a paper receipt is printed, then it was some sort of non standard fare?
    Stevek101 wrote: »
    If the transaction did not appear you were not charged twice. Also if there was a second transaction charged you would of received a ticket with "ITS PURSE USED" instead of "Adult Single". Which answers your question. You can purchase a ticket for a Child or Adult using your card and they will get a paper ticket.

    I received a ticket that says both "Adult Single" at the top, but also says "ITS Purse Used" further down the ticket. I'll know in future, thanks.

    And thanks for the answer about being able to buy multiple tickets.


  • #60
    SandyfordGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭SandyfordGuy


    Had problems both tagging on and tagging off at Irish Rail stations today, got the "Try Again" message on both occasions but worked the second time.

    Not sure if it was down to machine or the card though as someone i nthe gate next to me had same problem with Irish Rail smartcard.

    PS: You can see itemized usage via a LUAS machine.


  • Advertisement
  • #61
    markpb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,342 ✭✭✭markpb


    The new cards are fractionally slower than existing DB and Luas cards. You need to hold them dead centre on the reader and for a slightly longer time for them to respond. If you get the Already Validated error, I think it means you removed it too early the first time.


  • #62
    SandyfordGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭SandyfordGuy


    Mine just said try again, both on the Suburban readers and the one at dart station, no other details.

    I did notice that when you use it on the validator on the bus though it takes a little longer to validate than the other cards.


  • #63
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Oh forgot to mention earlier, I got the normal smart card discount when using both the Luas and Dart :)

    Which is really what makes having this card worth it.


  • #64
    SandyfordGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭SandyfordGuy


    That's no surprise, thats exactly what the documentation said would happen.


  • #65
    robd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 951 ✭✭✭robd


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    There is a beep, a green light and the fare charged and the stage number and name are shown on the two line screen just above the smart card target. The beep isn't very loud

    Paying via the driver, there is not audible beep on the 3 bus journeys I have take so fare. I've pretty perfect hearing.

    The screen is too small and very dim. The details appear to be flashed up rather than displayed. Again I've near perfect eyesight.

    So from an accessibility perspective this system where you pay the driver is very very poor. As a fully sighted person with full hearing I can hear no beep and have difficulty reading the screen. Could just about see the 1.85 on it. What happens to a person who's hard of hearing and/or has sight problems (not legally bad enough to have free travel card).

    At the moment it is considerably slower than cash as there's an awkward pause before the driver realises it's a LEAP/Smart card and an awkward pause before I can work out fare has been deducted and I'm OK to go.


    Beep should be audible, screen should be readable.


  • #66
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    robd wrote: »
    At the moment it is considerably slower than cash as there's an awkward pause before the driver realises it's a LEAP/Smart card and an awkward pause before I can work out fare has been deducted and I'm OK to go.

    100% exactly my own experience.

    Leap in this form will definitely lead to increased dwell times.


  • Advertisement
  • #67
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    robd wrote: »
    Paying via the driver, there is not audible beep on the 3 bus journeys I have take so fare. I've pretty perfect hearing.

    The screen is too small and very dim. The details appear to be flashed up rather than displayed. Again I've near perfect eyesight.

    So from an accessibility perspective this system where you pay the driver is very very poor. As a fully sighted person with full hearing I can hear no beep and have difficulty reading the screen. Could just about see the 1.85 on it. What happens to a person who's hard of hearing and/or has sight problems (not legally bad enough to have free travel card).

    At the moment it is considerably slower than cash as there's an awkward pause before the driver realises it's a LEAP/Smart card and an awkward pause before I can work out fare has been deducted and I'm OK to go.


    Beep should be audible, screen should be readable.

    Good stuff Robd,you are very perceptive to point out the shortcomings of this from the accessibility perspective as that will get a few exec's sitting bolt upright in their leather backet recliners !

    I would suggest that you contact the accesibility officer within Dublin Bus with these points as they do have a bearing on the companys obligations under the Accessibility Act 2000 and the company's own customer charter guidelines.

    The "beep" you refer to is,I suspect,the standard Ticket Machine Keystroke beep and is not related to the Leap Card validation at all.

    Some Ticket Machines do not have the keystroke beep enabled at all so I can indeed see further totally avoidable delays due to this imposition of silence.

    The size of the customer facing display is also problematical,as it is at a fixed angle unsuitable for many customers different physical make up.

    There is a larger screen available but to retro-fit the entire fleet would be a substantial EXTRA expense which I cannot see being borne by Bus Atha Cliath unless it is directed to so do.

    The more comments which are appearing in relation to Leap's On-Bus arrangements the more my belief in the Flat-Fare element is reinforced,as if this level of negative feedback continues it will undermine the credibility of the entire programme.....Is the NTA/ITIB prepared to risk this entire project to in order to maintain a historical Status Quo ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #68
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Flukey wrote: »
    . So the argument for the flat fare gets some weight. Of course on the whole flat fare, is it fair to charge someone who goes two or three stops the same as someone who goes from one terminus to the other, but that is another debate. Let's keep this as much to the Leap card as possible.

    Yes it is a debate worth encouraging,Flukey.

    It's worth bearing in mind that an integral part of the National Transport Authority's remit as outlined here...

    http://www.nationaltransport.ie/functions.html

    ....is provide for
    increased recourse to cycling and walking as means of transport.

    So perhaps the introduction of a bus Flat-Fare which sees short-hoppers being directed towards cycling or walking may not be as strange as it might initially seem :eek:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #69
    Flukey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭Flukey


    Aleksmart, given your regular positive contributions and highlighting of the many flaws of Dublin Bus, (don't go getting a big head now) is there any chance of you ever getting your arse onto one of those leather reclining chairs? Probably not, as trying to get things done there and the implementation of obvious changes appears to be like piddling against a hurricane, and the people at the frontline can't enter or even have any influence on that ivory tower that is the management of Dublin Bus. So we are doomed to continue to put up with these issues.

    Anyway, getting back to Leap, I tried topping up at a Luas stop today and there was no problem. I had intended to top up by €5, but it only gave €10 as the lowest option so I went for that.

    Inspectors got on the Luas and I instinctively showed my annual pass. I did think then of checking with them about how they check the Leap card, purely as a matter of interest, but they got off before I had a chance to do so. Has anyone else had any interaction with inspectors on any of the various transport systems?

    I haven't yet ventured onto the DART or commuter trains, but I might take a trip on the DART before the trial ends. So far so good, apart from Dublin Bus. It would be so easy to resolve some of their issues.


  • #70
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    So perhaps the introduction of a bus Flat-Fare which sees short-hoppers being directed towards cycling or walking may not be as strange as it might initially seem :eek:

    It isn't strange at all, it is actually common public transport policy around the world to discourage people from taking short journeys that can be completed by foot.

    The reason being a person travelling a short distance might take up the space of people who are travelling a much further distance and therefore in much greater need of public transport, in particular at peak times.

    This is the reason why the cost of LUAS and DART are relatively high for short journeys and only very gradually increase over longer distances.

    This can also be seen in London underground, etc.

    In fact DB's city centre fare is an anomaly and very counter productive for DB. Imagine at peak times a couple of people boarding the 16 at Georges St, paying a 50c fare, filling the bus, so it can't pick up people along other busy stops on Westmoreland St and O'Connell St. Leaving behind people waiting to pay maybe a €2.30 fare. Only for the 50c people to get off at Parnell Square and the bus ending up running empty the rest of it's route!!

    It really makes no sense at all.

    What would make sense instead is a flat fare, with the ability to give a reduced flat fare at off peak times, to encourage more people to travel off peak and therefore better utilise the bus fleet that is running either way.


  • #71
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    bk wrote: »

    .......In fact DB's city centre fare is an anomaly and very counter productive for DB. Imagine at peak times a couple of people boarding the 16 at Georges St, paying a 50c fare, filling the bus, so it can't pick up people along other busy stops on Westmoreland St and O'Connell St. Leaving behind people waiting to pay maybe a €2.30 fare. Only for the 50c people to get off at Parnell Square and the bus ending up running empty the rest of it's route!!

    It really makes no sense at all.

    It's great that these boards have the ability to cross pollenate in these ways...The City Centre Fare is yet another poorly managed,little understood mish-mash.

    Incredibly,somebody found it possible to have "END of City Centre Fare Zone" and "City-Centre Fare Zone" plates made up and affixed to Bus Stops but totally neglected to have a "START of City-Centre Fare Zone" plate made up...result=Chaotic Nonsense.

    According to this....

    http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/City-Centre/

    ....the City Centre/Shoppers Fare South to North is valid between....
    Frequent bus routes connect all areas in the City Centre, from Parnell Square, O’Connell St., the Quays and the IFSC to Merrion Square, St. Stephen’s Green, South. Great Georges Street and Parliament Street. Just ask the driver for a City Centre Fare when you board the bus, stating your destination within the City Centre Zone.

    ....however,the lack of a "START of City-Centre Fare Zone" plate means that passengers demand the Fare from,for example,mid way along Leeson St and travel to Dorset St/Sinnot Place (A goodly distance from Parnell Sq West yet a location there are TWO "END of City-Centre Fare Zone" Plates affixed to the Bus Shelter (:rolleyes:))

    Such a journey,once paid at €1.65 is now made for 50c,with few in authority having either the knowledge or interest to address the issue.

    Yet again...we fail to address the simple issues which then mushroom into major issues before suddenly requiring a Ministerial Order or Papal Bull to rectify....:(


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Advertisement
  • #72
    AngryLips
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,761 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    the lack of a "START of City-Centre Fare Zone" plate means that passengers demand the Fare from,for example,mid way along Leeson St and travel to Dorset St/Sinnot Place (A goodly distance from Parnell Sq West yet a location there are TWO "END of City-Centre Fare Zone" Plates affixed to the Bus Shelter (:rolleyes:))

    The city centre fare was introduced the same time as the College Green bus gate. Its introduction was intended to encourage people to try Dublin Bus who would not be regular users of the service, for example people who drive and park in the city centre getting around the main commercial areas north and south. The city centre fare zone plates indicated whether a stop was covered by the zone and the absence of it would answer your point above also. Unfortunately, DB didn't seem particular committed to the whole concept after launch and many of the stops have since lost the plates without any effort to replace them. I always thought this was unfortunate, along with the fact that the fare applied during peak hours.


  • #73
    curryman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 324 ✭✭curryman


    Well today was the first day to use the leap card 46a into town. Scanned it at the reader no probs. It showed the fare and the bal that was left on the card. Boarded a bus on o connell st to go across the city on the city centre fare. Placed the card on the machine and stated my destination. Response i got was " ah bud i dont know how to use those new tickets go ahead your grand". Explained to him how it worked and he was still unable to issue a ticket so the card wasn't deducted the fare. How can they expect this to work if bus drivers have not even been trained for the new card.


  • #74
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    AngryLips wrote: »
    Unfortunately, DB didn't seem particular committed to the whole concept after launch and many of the stops have since lost the plates without any effort to replace them. I always thought this was unfortunate, along with the fact that the fare applied during peak hours.

    Indeed...anybody remember Centre-Link......?

    Did'nt think so....:(

    But to jog a few memories......

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=210063
    Centrelink - the latest innovative service from Dublin Bus

    Centrelink: Dublin Bus Def. - "to link, to connect, to join, to merge and to meet"

    From Wednesday 8th December Dublin Bus will start its latest innovative customer focused service - CENTRELINK. This service is the quickest way to get across the city:

    * Linking the St. Stephen’s Green and Tallaght Luas lines
    * Linking the city from North to South and South to North
    * Linking Business and Shopping, Leisure and Entertainment from Morning till Night
    * Catch the 10 or 46A at the specially designated CENTRELINK BUS STOPS, and travel between St. Stephen’s Green and Parnell Square or link in with St. Stephen’s Green Luas Terminus and Abbey St. Luas for just 45 cent.
    * This 45c fare (or any Dublin Bus prepaid ticket) is valid all day every day and with a combined frequency of a bus every 4 minutes – this is a service that cannot be beaten on value or delivery. So watch out for the special CENTRELINK signs and bus stops.
    Speaking about this new service Grainne Mackin, Communications Manager for Dublin Bus said, “Dublin Bus have launched a number of services in recent weeks all of which are aimed at making public transport and commuting seamless, less hassle and value for money. By highlighting the existing bus routes of the 10 and 46A we are effectively linking the Luas lines and for very little cost. We continually listen to our customers and we always endeavor to meet their needs.

    Centrelink Bus Stops are located going from the Southside of the city to the Northside:

    * St. Stephen’s Green
    * Dawson St.
    * Suffolk St.
    * Westmoreland St.
    * O’Connell St.

    And from the Northside to the Southside:

    * Parnell Square
    * O’Connell St.
    * D’Olier St.
    * Nassau St.
    * Kildare St.
    * St. Stephen’s Green


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #75
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Alright, day #2 of using Leap.

    Started out with a Luas tag-on-tag-off. No problems there, as expected. Quick, easy, and no problems with locating readers. When tagging on, the reader deducted €2, and the balance of the fare was added back on at the end. Grand.

    Then got a city centre fare on DB. The driver really had no idea what he was doing. He printed out a 50c ticket, even though I had the card on the reader. I took it and asked if the fare was taken, to which he laughed uncomfortably and said "I don't know!" Later I realised that the fare was never taken off the card.

    Coming home (tired and dejected might I add :P ) I really didn't want to interact with the driver, but me being a good guinea-pig I decided not to go for the easy €2.20 option (it's not my money so it wouldn't bother me) and instead asked for the €1.85 fare. It wasn't worth it. The driver was pissed off with another customer, there had been a minor scene, and all I could think was here we go I'm gonna hold up the queue even more now. I showed my card, put it on the reader and told him my fare. He obviously didn't catch it, because he barked back "How much?". I repeated. There was no beep noise [seriously -- there is no beep! I've used it properly three times now and there has never been a beep!] so again cue the awkward silence between me and driver. Also I'm there thinking, the people behind me must think I'm mad trying to use my smartcard with the driver, and not on the right like all the others. Anyway. There was a little orange light, but I have no idea what it was for. I think it had been on for the whole transaction at any rate. Also, I couldn't see the display -- not sure if it was due to poor light or the angle, either way it was useless. So after an appropriate length of awkwardness I looked at the driver, he nodded, and I went and sat down.

    Next time I'm going to overpay by 35c. This kind of malarky is ridiculous.

    At the risk of understatement: I think Dublin Bus's implementation of the Leap Card is total and utter bollox.


  • #76
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Aard wrote: »
    Alright, day #2 of using Leap.

    Started out with a Luas tag-on-tag-off. No problems there, as expected. Quick, easy, and no problems with locating readers. When tagging on, the reader deducted €2, and the balance of the fare was added back on at the end. Grand.

    Then got a city centre fare on DB. The driver really had no idea what he was doing. He printed out a 50c ticket, even though I had the card on the reader. I took it and asked if the fare was taken, to which he laughed uncomfortably and said "I don't know!" Later I realised that the fare was never taken off the card.

    Coming home (tired and dejected might I add :P ) I really didn't want to interact with the driver, but me being a good guinea-pig I decided not to go for the easy €2.20 option (it's not my money so it wouldn't bother me) and instead asked for the €1.85 fare. It wasn't worth it. The driver was pissed off with another customer, there had been a minor scene, and all I could think was here we go I'm gonna hold up the queue even more now. I showed my card, put it on the reader and told him my fare. He obviously didn't catch it, because he barked back "How much?". I repeated. There was no beep noise [seriously -- there is no beep! I've used it properly three times now and there has never been a beep!] so again cue the awkward silence between me and driver. Also I'm there thinking, the people behind me must think I'm mad trying to use my smartcard with the driver, and not on the right like all the others. Anyway. There was a little orange light, but I have no idea what it was for. I think it had been on for the whole transaction at any rate. Also, I couldn't see the display -- not sure if it was due to poor light or the angle, either way it was useless. So after an appropriate length of awkwardness I looked at the driver, he nodded, and I went and sat down.

    Next time I'm going to overpay by 35c. This kind of malarky is ridiculous.

    At the risk of understatement: I think Dublin Bus's implementation of the Leap Card is total and utter bollox.


    The Audible Warning issue is one of the unsuspected little things which will sink the Leap card if not addressed PDQ.

    As a driver I believe it serves both Passenger and Driver in simply underlining the presence of a Card on the TIM reader...basic commonsense IMO.

    Even this limited 500 person test group is firmly pointing the finger at the nonsense that is attempting to thump a square peg of a sortofa kindofa Fare-Stage system into the round hole of a spanking new digitized RFD etc system....pure unadulterated nitwittery.

    If there is a central funding issue surrounding Bus Atha Cliaths farebox revenue situation,then that should have been negotiated and sorted BEFORE any Leap Card came off the press.....This is not the time to start last minute tweaking of a major new advancement in Public Transport marketability.....12 years and €40 Million should have meant a seamless introduction coupled and supported by the largest user applying a FLAT FARE to seal the issue !


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #77
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    The Audible Warning issue is one of the unsuspected little things which will sink the Leap card if not addressed PDQ.

    As a driver I believe it serves both Passenger and Driver in simply underlining the presence of a Card on the TIM reader...basic commonsense IMO.

    Even this limited 500 person test group is firmly pointing the finger at the nonsense that is attempting to thump a square peg of a sortofa kindofa Fare-Stage system into the round hole of a spanking new digitized RFD etc system....pure unadulterated nitwittery.

    If there is a central funding issue surrounding Bus Atha Cliaths farebox revenue situation,then that should have been negotiated and sorted BEFORE any Leap Card came off the press.....This is not the time to start last minute tweaking of a major new advancement in Public Transport marketability.....12 years and €40 Million should have meant a seamless introduction coupled and supported by the largest user applying a FLAT FARE to seal the issue !
    To me it looks like the ordinary readers will pick up smartcards from a small distance away meaning they can be left in a wallet etc but the driver readers require the card to be placed and HELD absolutely still for the card to be read. if there was a slot to load the card into for the driver it might make the whole process go slightly smoother?


  • #78
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    To me it looks like the ordinary readers will pick up smartcards from a small distance away meaning they can be left in a wallet etc but the driver readers require the card to be placed and HELD absolutely still for the card to be read. if there was a slot to load the card into for the driver it might make the whole process go slightly smoother?

    wouldnt be for the card to read, with a smart card 2 things are happening. It's got to talk to the validator and the validator has to talk back to it.

    With paying at the driver, the validator doesnt talk back to the smart card until the driver has finished tapping in / submitting the fare.


  • #79
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    wouldnt be for the card to read, with a smart card 2 things are happening. It's got to talk to the validator and the validator has to talk back to it.

    With paying at the driver, the validator doesnt talk back to the smart card until the driver has finished tapping in / submitting the fare.
    From the reports from people using them here it would appear the card is not talking to the drivers validate unless it is held perfectly still while the driver puts the fare on it.


  • #80
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    From the reports from people using them here it would appear the card is not talking to the drivers validate unless it is held perfectly still while the driver puts the fare on it.

    That's because you've got to wait for the driver to input the fare. It's much easier to ask people to hold it down.


  • #81
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,924 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    With Oyster you have to put it flat on the pad - people will need time to adjust to it.


  • Advertisement
  • #82
    SandyfordGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭SandyfordGuy


    What is the story with regards to buses where the validator does not work?

    Last night I was on the bus and for everyone with travel 90 cards and ramblers etc the driver was telling them to go on ahead. He also told me to go on ahead as he didn't want to penalize me ten cent because their equipment wasn't working and told me not to pay in cash.

    Be interested to see what would happen if there was a revenue check


  • #83
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,924 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    No validator = no fare.


  • #84
    emco
    Registered Users Posts: 82 ✭✭emco


    devnull wrote: »
    It's unfair to judge them like it's a full launch when the NTA have been very clear it is still in a test phase......


    ....Wait until you see the final fare structure, it has not been decided yet, as stated in the letter from Transport for Ireland.

    The whole point of the test is to judge it like it is fully launched, then our feedback is used to improve it!

    If nobody complains about the fare structure with Dublin Bus there will be no chance of it being changed for the final fare structure.

    Your overall post was very scathing to someone who just raised a few valid points.


  • #85
    AngryLips
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,761 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    emco wrote: »
    If nobody complains about the fare structure with Dublin Bus there will be no chance of it being changed for the final fare structure.

    Any feedback on the fare structure is going to be discounted anyway because that's a separate issue to the launch of the card itself.


  • #86
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    AngryLips wrote: »
    Any feedback on the fare structure is going to be discounted anyway because that's a separate issue to the launch of the card itself.

    And in my experience, this is exactly why big IT projects fail.

    Not looking at the big picture, end to end user experience.


  • #87
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    AngryLips wrote: »
    Any feedback on the fare structure is going to be discounted anyway because that's a separate issue to the launch of the card itself.
    Seperate because the Company want it seperate but it is all tied in together for each and every customer but when has any CIE company heeded their customers complaints or feedback?


  • #88
    markpb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,342 ✭✭✭markpb


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Seperate because the Company want it seperate but it is all tied in together for each and every customer but when has any CIE company heeded their customers complaints or feedback?

    Separate because the RPA (and later the NTA) were told to develop a card that carries the existing tickets, applies the existing fare and has an ePurse. They were not told (nor do they have the authority to) change the fare structures in any way - it's not an integrated fares project.

    I'm not saying that this is right, just that it is what it is. If you want to see the fares changed, you need to tell your local TD and the DoT. Telling the NTA is pointless.


  • #89
    AngryLips
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,761 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    bk wrote: »
    And in my experience, this is exactly why big IT projects fail.

    Sorry BK but, unlike many of your contributions, this is a total non-statement.

    Fare structure is a completely separate issue to the implementation of Leap technology. The most common reason why a big project like this fails is when they try to deliver too much at once. A good example is the launch of Heathrow T5 compared to Dublin T2, where one went for a big bang launch while the other chose a staggered launch. Which terminal lost over 40,000 bags in the initial days of operation?

    While some of the possible fare structures we might expect in the future is dependant on introduction of Leap the same doesn't apply in reverse. It was never necessary to change the fare structure to facilitate the introduction of this technology so why complicate it further and expose yourself to the risks of the additional (not to mention unnecessary) requirements that come with a new fare structure when trying to deliver the card?

    Criticise the card all you want but let's save our criticism of the fare structure until that part of the project is delivered.


  • #90
    markpb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,342 ✭✭✭markpb


    AngryLips wrote: »
    Fare structure is a completely separate issue to the implementation of Leap technology.

    That's not very true. Yes, you *can* move to contactless ticketing without simplifying the fare structure but it's never a great idea. If you're underlying business problem is complicated, your new IT project is more complicated, more expensive and less likely to succeed.

    The card has to hold cash (for multiple operators), tickets for single operators, tickets for multiple operators, capping for both single and multiple operators, transfers and rebates for single and multiple operators. The system also has support for settlement between the operators and retail network for all those elements. It's incredibly complex and hides a lot of business and technical details. If Irish Rail and Luas agree to a common cap, it requires complex a business agreement, settlement strategy and then changes to the backend to support all that. If a new operator comes along and wants to cap with some of the existing operators, there is another mesh of changes required.

    If they had simplified the fare structure as part of (or preferably before) the introduction, the project would have been much easier and faster to deliver. If they had moved to a central farebox system like TFL and a flat fare or tag on/off system for Dublin Bus, the card and settlement system could have been much simpler.

    If they decide in a years time to simplify the fare structure, it could require wholesale changes to the card and backend and, at best, throwing away a lot of the functionality that took time to develop and deliver. If they had done that from the start, the work wouldn't have been done and the time wouldn't have been wasted.


  • Advertisement
  • #91
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Don't forget the bit about the customer needing to be able to understand the basics of how it works so they can trust the new system with their money. If it is too complex they will never understand it. If people don't trust the new Leap card they will not use it.


  • #92
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    According to their twitter, Leap should have travel 90 tickets enabled in the future.


  • #93
    SandyfordGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭SandyfordGuy


    That is very good news! However the fact that they will be implemented probably means they're no closer to trying to eliminate cash fares and the current fare structure.


  • #94
    Mushy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,479 ✭✭✭✭Mushy


    Had the card checked by luas inspector yesterday. In the morning it took an age to read the card, I thought I would get a fine.

    In the evening I got them to scan it again. They asked questions bout it, I explained the mornings scanning. It worked normally at night, they said they had the new scanners. They can see all previous transactions too.
    So with the new scanners for inspectors, its all good.


  • #95
    Zwillinge
    Registered Users Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭Zwillinge


    Have been using it since last Saturday evening, getting communter trains, Dublin Bus and Luas journeys, all working out well. Cheaper rates on the trains and the buses, as I commute from Blanchardstown into the city Centre.

    One fumble, probably my own doing, but the card wouldn't read on exit from the train station at one stage and I had that awkward scanning/begging it to work moment with the queue building up behind me :o

    Guy let me through, but it took a chunk of charge from my card, as it believed I went on an epic journey, has this happened to anyone else?

    Overall I do like it and I like the design of it too.


  • #96
    SandyfordGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭SandyfordGuy


    With the train hold it so the middle of the card is in the middle of the reader, and with the back side pointing towards the reader and the logo side facing you, I found that works every time after having the problem myself a few times, the bus and luas seems to not be so fussy.

    I actually use Luas, Bus and Train at varying intervals and not always the same during the week it's never more than one bus at any one time though, so even though it costs me 30c a bus journey more over using travel 90, for the convenience of not having to keep a LUAS smart card topped up, an Irish rail smart card topped up, and buying a travel 90 every week is a huge improvement for me as I now just need to use one card and manage it all centrally. The amount I spend a week commuting really the max 60c extra a day I pay is virtually nothing and it saves me much more time.


  • Advertisement
  • #97
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Day Three... I fear I shall never leave this prison...


    DB stole my bus fare!! Or does it count as stealing if the thief has no idea he's doing it? Driver took 2 × €1.85 off the card today. In one transaction btw. So the card goes down on the bullseye at exactly a 90° angle and 65mm from the coin box and held perfectly still. "One-eighty please!" Some text flies up and back down again too fast to read. Though I thought I caught my balance, which was a figure much lower than it should have been, but I wasn't really focussing on it. Then without warning this essay shoots out of the ticket machine: a ticket worth €1.85, and a statement of old and new balance. Only the old balance was €1.85 less than it should have been. This is completely not on.

    At this stage I was halfway up the stairs. Even if I had noticed sooner, I wouldn't have said anything to the driver. He was old, and seemed pissed off that he couldn't work the Leap fare. Still though, €3.30 for a bus trip... thank god it's not my money. I know I said last time that I'd use the automatic €2.20 reader in future... I think I will now.


  • #98
    curryman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 324 ✭✭curryman


    Aard wrote: »
    Then without warning this essay shoots out of the ticket machine: a ticket worth €1.85, and a statement of old and new balance.

    I used the card via the driver today. Told him the fare of 1.20. No probs the amount was taken off the card but no ticket issued. When we use the card via the driver are we def ment to get a paper ticket from the machine.


  • #99
    Stevek101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭Stevek101


    No tickets are issued when you get the fare off the driver. A green light, beep and information about the fare amount/stage is shown. If you receive a ticket that means you've paid for an additional passenger using your ITS purse.

    This can be annulled at the request of the driver (once you are in the same fare stage and its under two minutes since the fare was issued).


  • #100
    curryman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 324 ✭✭curryman


    Cheers stevek for clearing that up. Got the green light and the info on the display. Never got the beep. Even for a sec or two the driver was unsure if transaction was complete. They should look into a louder beep like you get, when putting the card up to the reader.


  • #101
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    curryman wrote: »
    I used the card via the driver today. Told him the fare of 1.20. No probs the amount was taken off the card but no ticket issued. When we use the card via the driver are we def ment to get a paper ticket from the machine.

    This definitely appears tpo be catching out passengers and staff alike....

    If you get a paper ticket from a Bus Ticket Machine,then you have paid for TWO persons....demand an immediate annulment.

    This is,I believe,caused by the lack of audible signal when the Leap validates...and also by the traditional pause by a passenger for that all important ticket.....now no longer issued... :rolleyes:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Advertisement
This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement