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Signing Cards?

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  • 27-07-2015 10:46am
    #1
    Wichita Lineman
    Registered Users Posts: 48,742 ✭✭✭✭


    A recent phenomenon at my club has seen a number of lads disqualified for not having their card signed properly.

    They either didn't sign it themselves or didn't ensure their marker had also signed.

    To me it's a basic rule of golf and I just cant understand how lads let it happen. To make matters worse some are quite upset about being DQ'd!!

    Does this happen regularly elsewhere?
    Tagged:


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    #2
    slave1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,746 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    Yep, always at New Forest every week when checking the results you see folk DQ Rule 6-6(b), think their scores still taken into account for CSS though so if they did well lads would be thinking why CSS was so high at times.
    Just being lazy or know they will be DQ's and get 0.1 back maybe?

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    #3
    charlieIRL
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,190 Mod ✭✭✭✭charlieIRL


    Crikey, I don't think i signed my card last Thursday in Moate, was in a rush leaving after the round. Not that it mattered with the score i had but still, silly mistake.


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    #4
    Wichita Lineman
    Registered Users Posts: 48,742 ✭✭✭✭Wichita Lineman


    I wouldn't think yesterday was deliberate anyway as a number of them had decent scores for the Captains Prize Qualifier. Perhaps just bad habits or people rushing away as they were soaked after a drizzly round yesterday. Mind you some of the DQ's played Saturday when it was lovely!


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    #5
    cairny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭cairny


    slave1 wrote: »
    Yep, always at New Forest every week when checking the results you see folk DQ Rule 6-6(b), think their scores still taken into account for CSS though so if they did well lads would be thinking why CSS was so high at times.
    Just being lazy or know they will be DQ's and get 0.1 back maybe?

    You will still avoid a 0.1 and even get cut on a DQ card, just no prize so no point doing it deliberately.


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    #6
    newport2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,581 ✭✭✭newport2


    Wichita Lineman wrote: »
    I wouldn't think yesterday was deliberate anyway as a number of them had decent scores for the Captains Prize Qualifier. Perhaps just bad habits or people rushing away as they were soaked after a drizzly round yesterday. Mind you some of the DQ's played Saturday when it was lovely!

    If it wasn't deliberate, all it should take is one good score card followed by a DQ to prevent it ever happening again. I remember years ago it happened to my mate after the round of his life, DQ when he would have come 1st.


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    #7
    yettie1701
    Registered Users Posts: 233 ✭✭yettie1701


    Learned a dear lesson a few years back. I had 42 points in a competition and forgot to sign my card. I was disqualified and rightly so still got cut and the winning score was 41. It won't happen me again.


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    #8
    slave1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,746 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    Kinda like the best way to remember your wife's birthday, it's to forget it....

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    #9
    Senna
    Registered Users Posts: 8,800 ✭✭✭Senna


    Happened to me once as well, had a good score and forgot to sign the card, I wasn't even in a rush, just too busy chatting while entering the score. Now when I get my card at the start of the round, I sign it.


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    #10
    OffalyMedic
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭OffalyMedic


    What ever about forgetting to sign cards what I can't understand is when people have a winning score and don't return card.

    About 2 years ago in our club, a lady had winning score in captains prize and went home to get changed for dinner with card in bag/pocket or something. Either way when comp was over her card wasn't in the box so she was dq'd.

    How sick would you be, not everyday you have winning card in captains prize!!


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    #11
    Redzah
    Registered Users Posts: 913 ✭✭✭Redzah


    Senna wrote: »
    Happened to me once as well, had a good score and forgot to sign the card, I wasn't even in a rush, just too busy chatting while entering the score. Now when I get my card at the start of the round, I sign it.

    Purpose of signing the card is to verify the score you submit is correct. How can you do this at the start of the round? Kinda like signing a blank cheque!!!


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    #12
    Senna
    Registered Users Posts: 8,800 ✭✭✭Senna


    Redzah wrote: »
    Purpose of signing the card is to verify the score you submit is correct. How can you do this at the start of the round? Kinda like signing a blank cheque!!!

    I've no problem with it, marker hands it back to me, I check it over and put it in computer/box, if there's a problem I'll still know, whether it's signed or not.


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    #13
    Boskowski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    Ye I don't get that either. After the round you sit down. probably write down last or last two scores ('what had you on the last?') then verify and tot it all up and then you sign as marker. Then you hand it to the player and say 'please check that before you sign'.

    There's really not much room for forgetting unless you do your own card to begin with or some other stuff.


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    #14
    Dtoffee
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Dtoffee


    Senna wrote: »
    Now when I get my card at the start of the round, I sign it.

    I often do that and do the same with the card I get to mark, never had a problem.


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    #15
    Senna
    Registered Users Posts: 8,800 ✭✭✭Senna


    Boskowski wrote: »
    Ye I don't get that either. After the round you sit down. probably write down last or last two scores ('what had you on the last?') then verify and tot it all up and then you sign as marker. Then you hand it to the player and say 'please check that before you sign'.

    There's really not much room for forgetting unless you do your own card to begin with or some other stuff.

    That's like saying "I don't know how anyone could miss a one foot putt". Of course you don't miss it often and you don't forget to sign a card often, but mistakes can and do happen, so I try and prevent it.
    Unfortunately I haven't found a system to prevent missing a short putt, YET.


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    #16
    Redzah
    Registered Users Posts: 913 ✭✭✭Redzah


    Dtoffee wrote: »
    I often do that and do the same with the card I get to mark, never had a problem.

    Well, technically it is contrary to the rules of golf by signing the scorecard before your round and is punishable by a DQ, same as if you forget to sign your card after the round and submit it. Rule 6-6b

    Signing and Returning Score Card
    After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible.

    PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 6-6b:
    Disqualification.


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    #17
    Wichita Lineman
    Registered Users Posts: 48,742 ✭✭✭✭Wichita Lineman


    I don't sign mine in advance anyway but neither did I realise it was a DQ offence. You live and learn!


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    #18
    Senna
    Registered Users Posts: 8,800 ✭✭✭Senna


    Didn't realise either, especially for a big comp, would be worse than not signing it.


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    #19
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,854 ✭✭✭Russman


    I think you can sign it whenever you want & as many times as you want, as long as you add a signature after the round is completed.


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    #20
    DiegoWorst
    Registered Users Posts: 143 ✭✭DiegoWorst


    Dtoffee wrote: »
    I often do that and do the same with the card I get to mark, never had a problem.

    and if you have a disagreement with the marker over a score on a particular hole?

    Marker signs the card to verify the score as he recorded it is accurate and correct.
    You sign to verify that you agree with his record of your round.

    This is hugely important.


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    #21
    Dtoffee
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Dtoffee


    Redzah wrote: »
    Well, technically it is contrary to the rules of golf by signing the scorecard before your round and is punishable by a DQ, same as if you forget to sign your card after the round and submit it. Rule 6-6b

    Signing and Returning Score Card
    After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible.

    PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 6-6b:
    Disqualification.

    This issue came up in a Golf Monthly thread and they got this reply from the RandA HQ:

    Thank you for your email and query on the Rules of Golf.

    There is no Rule preventing a player from signing a score card in advance of starting the stipulated round. However, the key is that the signature attests to the score therefore, generally score cards are signed following the round, as this is the seal of approval of the score achieved by the player.

    Whilst there is no penalty for signing the card in advance, this practice is not recommended ".

    Go straight to the last post:

    http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-58507.html


    As clear as mud :rolleyes:


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    #22
    Redzah
    Registered Users Posts: 913 ✭✭✭Redzah


    Dtoffee wrote: »
    This issue came up in a Golf Monthly thread and they got this reply from the RandA HQ:

    Thank you for your email and query on the Rules of Golf.

    There is no Rule preventing a player from signing a score card in advance of starting the stipulated round. However, the key is that the signature attests to the score therefore, generally score cards are signed following the round, as this is the seal of approval of the score achieved by the player.

    Whilst there is no penalty for signing the card in advance, this practice is not recommended ".

    Go straight to the last post:

    http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-58507.html


    As clear as mud :rolleyes:

    Interesting. What is become very evident from this is that not re-signing the card after the round is a DQ. The act of signing before is not a DQ but not signing (or initialling) again after the round to verify the score is technically a DQ. Therefore, I'd argue that the safeguards you discuss of signing the card before the round are not relevant by the letter of the law. However, if you submit your card as is using this method you would never be found out as it would appear as signed and verified after the round.
    So therefore, the next time you do this and win a competition you will have to live with the guilt if you do not re-sign the card afterwards as you will know that technically you should DQ yourself.


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    #23
    Dtoffee
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Dtoffee


    Redzah wrote: »
    Interesting. What is become very evident from this is that not re-signing the card after the round is a DQ. The act of signing before is not a DQ but not signing (or initialling) again after the round to verify the score is technically a DQ. Therefore, I'd argue that the safeguards you discuss of signing the card before the round are not relevant by the letter of the law. However, if you submit your card as is using this method you would never be found out as it would appear as signed and verified after the round.
    So therefore, the next time you do this and win a competition you will have to live with the guilt if you do not re-sign the card afterwards as you will know that technically you should DQ yourself.

    To be fair, that is your interpetation and unless we can produce a definitive answer from the RandA .... its all down to individual interpetations. I always check the cards with opponents at the end of the round anyway. If any issues arise, they are dealt with and initialled immediately and as for guilt? I fail to see any advantage in terms of cheating etc and have absolutely no issues as I'm happy that the scores are correct after checking them. Signing in advance is just my insurance against avoiding handing in the dreaded unsigned card and just because it works for me, I fully accept its not for everyone.


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    #24
    Seve OB
    Registered Users Posts: 15,846 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    I have never come across anyone signing a card as a player or a marker before or during a round. It is always done after the round. I don't see what the problem is.

    If you forget, that is just stupidity, but why on earth would any respectable golfer even consider signing a card before the round commences? This concept baffles me!


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    #25
    Boskowski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    DiegoWorst wrote: »
    and if you have a disagreement with the marker over a score on a particular hole?

    Marker signs the card to verify the score as he recorded it is accurate and correct.
    You sign to verify that you agree with his record of your round.

    This is hugely important.

    I never understood it that way. Of course obvious and blatant discrepancies you may rise an eyebrow over. But really the marker is just supposed to write down whatever score the players says he had at a given hole. I'm not counting the others guys shots. I'm only marking them.

    To be perfectly honest - and it may not be in line with the rules technically - the way it works with my regular playing partners and myself is as follows:
    We all have our cards in our pockets playing the first. Then typically on the second tee someone says 'any volunteers?' or 'ok, I'll do the cards' or something like that. Then the guy collects all the cards and marks them through the round including his own. After each hole it goes 'call them out' which they do and the guy goes 'ok, two 4s and a 5 for myself' or something like that. Rinse and repeat until we finish the round. Then we sit down at the entrance to the locker, the marker tots it all up, signs and hands the cards over to the player and say 'please check that'. Then he adds up his own card and asks one of the players to sign as a marker. And thats it.

    Are we all technically cheating? There never have been any disputes in the rounds I was involved in and I'm pretty certain I never marked anyones or my own score incorrectly.

    Edit: In all the years I'm playing I had one single incident where a junior gave me a 5 for his score on a given hole and I went 'are you sure?'. And then he corrected it to a 6. It may have been a genuine mistake and it may not have been, I don't know, but I kept an eye on him for the remainder of the round and there was nothing funny again.


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    #26
    Redzah
    Registered Users Posts: 913 ✭✭✭Redzah


    Dtoffee wrote: »
    To be fair, that is your interpetation and unless we can produce a definitive answer from the RandA .... its all down to individual interpetations. I always check the cards with opponents at the end of the round anyway. If any issues arise, they are dealt with and initialled immediately and as for guilt? I fail to see any advantage in terms of cheating etc and have absolutely no issues as I'm happy that the scores are correct after checking them. Signing in advance is just my insurance against avoiding handing in the dreaded unsigned card and just because it works for me, I fully accept its not for everyone.

    I don't think this is my interpretation, I think it's quite clear from the wording in the rule I previously quoted what the chronological order of events needs to be. Forgetting to sign a scorecard is up there with the dumbest things you could do in golf, i don't understand how it could happen personally.

    If someone handed my a scorecard signed before the round I'd feel like marking zero points in the total, sign it and hand it back on the first tee.


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    #27
    Senna
    Registered Users Posts: 8,800 ✭✭✭Senna


    Redzah wrote: »
    Forgetting to sign a scorecard is up there with the dumbest things you could do in golf, i don't understand how it could happen personally.

    If someone handed my a scorecard signed before the round I'd feel like marking zero points in the total, sign it and hand it back on the first tee.

    Why does this bother you so much?? It's actually getting amusing now.
    I could understand if it was a dodgy practice that could facilitate cheating or bad sportsmanship, but it has no effect whatsoever on anything.


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    #28
    ForeRight
    Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭ForeRight


    If you have a great card and forget to sign it you are a complete cabaiste. No other way of dressing this up!

    You deserve your DQ and to be the laughing stock


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    #29
    Senna
    Registered Users Posts: 8,800 ✭✭✭Senna


    I agree, that's why mine is signed already. Problem??


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    #30
    Dtoffee
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Dtoffee


    Redzah wrote: »
    I don't think this is my interpretation, I think it's quite clear from the wording in the rule I previously quoted what the chronological order of events needs to be. Forgetting to sign a scorecard is up there with the dumbest things you could do in golf, i don't understand how it could happen personally.

    If someone handed my a scorecard signed before the round I'd feel like marking zero points in the total, sign it and hand it back on the first tee.

    The RandA have said there is no penalty and that is their definitive answer, therefore no rule has been broken.

    As for you feeling like handing a presigned card back with zero points marked on it, Im not sure where that would leave you if you actually did it.

    In relation to the post above from Boskowski stating that one person was marking all the cards, this seems to be a lot more common than I thought. As I understand it: a player should not mark his own card ... maybe Im wrong and its OK ?


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    #31
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,854 ✭✭✭Russman


    Dtoffee wrote: »
    In relation to the post above from Boskowski stating that one person was marking all the cards, this seems to be a lot more common than I thought. As I understand it: a player should not mark his own card ... maybe Im wrong and its OK ?

    No, it's not ok, but the situation outlined above does seem to be a pretty common one from what I've seen i.e. one guy doing all the cards for a 3/4 ball. I think it tends to be with regular 3/4 balls who play together all the time. As soon as a "new" player is involved they revert to the way it should be. IMHO it's a product of laziness and convenience rather than anything sinister, not that that makes it right.


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