Ireland-Openside Flankers

rugbyman2015 · 03-01-2012 9:42am #1

Just thought I get the ball rolling on this one.

With all the talk recently about how important the openside flanker is now in modern rugby, should Ireland look to change their policy in the coming years and look for a genuine 7 in the mould of McCaw, Pocock, Warburton et al if we are to challenge for top honours in the game?

Personally, I think we're missing a thing by playing big ball carrying blindsides at 7 and thinking its a quick fix. In Aus/NZ the openside flanker is a unique position in its own right and is given respect when selecting a team.

JustinDee · 03-01-2012 9:56am

Swings and roundabouts really.
Aussie don't have any other (yet-to-become) international-quality fetchers behind Pocock.
When he is absent, their gameplan suffers as he is so prolific as second man to the tackle. McCaw's absence has greater effect on NZ as he is also their leader.

A gameplan not only determines selection of a player and type of player but is also in turn determined itself by the available player-pool.

molloyjh · 03-01-2012 12:08pm

rugbyman2015 wrote: »

Just thought I get the ball rolling on this one.

With all the talk recently about how important the openside flanker is now in modern rugby, should Ireland look to change their policy in the coming years and look for a genuine 7 in the mould of McCaw, Pocock, Warburton et al if we are to challenge for top honours in the game?

Personally, I think we're missing a thing by playing big ball carrying blindsides at 7 and thinking its a quick fix. In Aus/NZ the openside flanker is a unique position in its own right and is given respect when selecting a team.

The way I see it is that your openside should always be hovering around the fringes of play (be it at the breakdown or on the ball carriers shoulder) to mop up ball, turn over ball, act as a link man etc Your blindside is more of a direct carrier like SOB or Ferris. They may have some of the skills of a blindside too but are not the complete package. Having a specialist openside allows the blindside focus more on the ball carrying element of their game, ensures everyone knows what their role is at all times and there is always someone filling the openside role. Think Jenno or Gleeson at Leinster. Both were classic opensides and there has been plenty of comment lately about how much more effective Leinster are when Jenno plays. And for as important as the groundhog part of their play is what most impressed me about Jenno last season was his support play.

Now I know from previous threads there is a point of view, shared by Justin, that the back-row can act as a single unit sharing the responsibilities and the number on the shirt is irrelevant. And while I agree that this can be effective I personally think specialised roles is preferable.

Unfortunately I don't think this is an opinion that is commonly held at national level. We have SOB at 7 for Ireland now (and increasingly at Leinster which I'm not fond of) after years of having Wallace there. Neither are true opensides. And with such little emphasis on this position I don't see us bringing many real 7s through the provinces either. Dom Ryan is being touted as Jennos heir to the 7 shirt at Leinster. It will be interesting to see how he develops over the next season or so. He's certainly a class act but whether he's a true openside remains to be seen.

But looking at the best 3 sides in the RWC last year (New Zealand, Australia and Wales) all 3 have a true openside. All 3 rely on him. And all 3 play an attractive, relatively expansive, game of rugby. For as much as Ireland could and should be aiming to play the same type of game the simple fact is we don't. So maybe we don't need a true 7 after all. The question then becomes should we really be playing the way we are, which of course is off topic!!!

pickarooney · 03-01-2012 12:30pm

molloyjh wrote: »

But looking at the best 3 sides in the RWC last year (New Zealand, Australia and Wales) all 3 have a true openside. All 3 rely on him. And all 3 play an attractive, relatively expansive, game of rugby.

And in two of the three cases that (over-)reliance cost them while NZ were lucky not to lose theirs.

France, on the other hand, don't have an openside flanker and their 6/7 (club/NT) was voted player of the year.

Tox56 · 03-01-2012 12:31pm

I was just about to say that all the World Cup Semi-Finalists had a world-class openside, coincidence?

Reloc8 · 03-01-2012 12:53pm

Tox56 wrote: »

I was just about to say that all the World Cup Semi-Finalists had a world-class openside, coincidence?

Not at all. Who plays open-side flanker is close to being determinative of the speed the game is played at. If you have a great one your recycle ball will be quick, and your link play better, and conversely their ball will be slower and their link play disrupted.

Look at how quickly a good team resets their defensive line after a line bust where the strike runner is finally tackled - fast recycle/link is the difference between a score or no score.

Alternatively in say Ireland's case, lacking a true 7, 12 & 13 are expected to contribute heavily to the work at the break down. A class 7 can decrease the need for this, freeing up your three-quarters especially on attack (on defence whoever is there has to try and make the play).

Is Thierry Dusatoir a genuine 'classic' 7 ? Perhaps not. Is he capable of playing open-side ? Of course he is.

Personally I think O'Brien would be well able at 7 given more play there...but you lose his contribution around the park from 6 where he has a freer role (see e.g. 2nd half in the 2011 H Cup final, when Leinster swapped him from 7 to 6).

molloyjh · 03-01-2012 3:51pm

pickarooney wrote: »

And in two of the three cases that (over-)reliance cost them

Did it? The Aussies went out against NZ with Pocock in the side and Wales lost Warburton, but losing a player and your captain like that will have a huge impact regardless of the position they play. They had plenty of chances to win that game even with Warburton off. It's not like he could have taken the drop goal that Jones bottled. I don't agree that the reliance on one position was the reason those teams didn't win the competition.

You could argue that missing Pocock was decisive in the Irish game but I'm not sure we'll ever know there.

wixfjord · 03-01-2012 4:05pm

This is an issue that I've a bee in my bonnet over, and, for me, the WC showed our over reliance on an unbalanced back row. This has been a problem for a while now, as we haven't had a real 7 since possibly Keith Gleeson, and in the 6Ns, we generally don't come up against one.

However, the three top SH sides have Pocock, Brussow and McCaw, and the one time we did come

Pocock's loss against Aus certainly made a big difference to the result of that game.

On the other hand, you couldn't drop any of SOB, Ferris or Heaslip, and Wallace before that, and we don't have an international class 7. Jennings and, gulp, Niall Ronan are good provincial players, but I think both are not good enough to oust the current guys.

It's a bit of a catch 22 situation.

Hopefully Dom Ryan will go on to be a top class 7, but he's not even a groundhog traditional 7 imo, more in the Joe Worsley mould of backrower.
We need a Steffan Armitage/Warburton type!

pickarooney · 03-01-2012 4:17pm

molloyjh wrote: »

You could argue that missing Pocock was decisive in the Irish game but I'm not sure we'll ever know there.

That's what I was pointing to in any case.

Tox56 · 03-01-2012 5:40pm

Forgive my ignorance for not really following his developement, but what type of player would be best to describe Dom Ryan? Is he good on the ground but better at carrying/something else, or is best in the breakdown but brings other attributes?

rugbyman2015 · 03-01-2012 5:53pm

what about o'mahony for munster? he seems to have that groundhog ability and has come on this season. he's been playing 6 lately but i wouldn't mind seeing him at 7 and raising a few eyebrows in the ireland management.

TBH, i can't see any genuine opensides coming to the fore for ireland until the coaches at underage level and the provincial selectors cop on. When we see coaches in schools rugby and at clubs encouraging their no.7 to play in the traditional mould of what the openside is all about then we will see change in the professional game. I know from talking with many schools coaches in leinster that they completely disregard the importance of an openside because they say those players wont get recognised for representative teams because of their size or style anyway, some even said they prefer a ball carrier anyday to a fetcher!

Can you imagine if a player like richie mccaw was growing up in ireland as a young lad and couldn't make it because the coach wanted a bigger and bulkier player at 7 to add weight to the scrum and carry the ball?

I know the openside is not the be all and end all in today's game but nonetheless they have become very important as the rules have changed and the game has evolved.

shuffol · 03-01-2012 6:44pm

Is it a cultural thing with Ireland that we dont produce opensides, have we had many top international ones down through the years apart from Fergus Slattery? Wales seem to have no problem producing them, Warburton, Martyn Williams, Tipuric is only 21 and looks an amazing prospect, Josh Navidi looks impressive too.

jacothelad · 03-01-2012 6:48pm

shuffol wrote: »

Is it a cultural thing with Ireland that we dont produce opensides, have we had many top international ones down through the years apart from Fergus Slattery? Wales seem to have no problem producing them, Warburton, Martyn Williams, Tipuric is only 21 and looks an amazing prospect, Josh Navidi looks impressive too.

Yes, many. Guys like Bill McKay, Noel Murphy, Nigel Carr, John O'Driscoll, Gordon Hamilton, Kieron Dawson, Mick Doyle, Kieth Gleeson, Denis McBride, Andy Ward.

Reloc8 · 03-01-2012 7:00pm

rugbyman2015 wrote: »

Can you imagine if a player like richie mccaw was growing up in ireland as a young lad and couldn't make it because the coach wanted a bigger and bulkier player at 7 to add weight to the scrum and carry the ball?

Mmm - he'd likely be picked at centre.

totallegend · 03-01-2012 7:30pm

jacothelad wrote: »

shuffol wrote: »

Is it a cultural thing with Ireland that we dont produce opensides, have we had many top international ones down through the years apart from Fergus Slattery? Wales seem to have no problem producing them, Warburton, Martyn Williams, Tipuric is only 21 and looks an amazing prospect, Josh Navidi looks impressive too.

Yes, many. Guys like Bill McKay, Noel Murphy, Nigel Carr, John O'Driscoll, Gordon Hamilton, Kieron Dawson, Mick Doyle, Kieth Gleeson, Denis McBride, Andy Ward.

Time to get the Just For Men out again Jaco, your roots are showing... Dawson, Ward and McBride were decent operators but never world class, never in the
martyn Williams league. Can't really comment on the older guys.

JustinDee · 03-01-2012 7:48pm

Andy Ward and Kieron Dawson were world-class breakaways. Absolute hounds at breakdown but the former covered the blind side and the latter was very unlucky with injury. McBride was not a fetcher per se but one hell of a rover who harangued opposition halves and was quite a link man. He was about the number 7 role developed even further by legends Josh Kronfeld (best openside I've seen play) and Dave Wilson.

rugbyman2015 · 03-01-2012 8:47pm

what do people think of pocock compared to mccaw? pocock has the size and power but doesn't link much with the backline. mccaw on the other hand is always linking with his backs and is on the ball constantly but doesn't have the same strength to make as many turnovers. which kind of player would suit ireland more?

jacothelad · 03-01-2012 8:54pm

totallegend wrote: »

Time to get the Just For Men out again Jaco, your roots are showing... Dawson, Ward and McBride were decent operators but never world class, never in the
martyn Williams league. Can't really comment on the older guys.

Possibly true although Ward was often sensational. If he was playing in the current set up having had a full time career as a rugby player he would be a great asset. Martyn Williams was also more of a 'poacher' to steal a phrase from soccer than a McCaw type player.

Conas · 03-01-2012 10:04pm

We produce ball carrying 7s, but I don't really see this is as a problem like others do. When going forward it's fantastic, but in defence you really need someone to slow the ball down and turn it over which is fair enough. I think O'Brien can be a world class 7, but he just needs to be kept there, and the reality is he will be playing there for Ireland anyway. Ferris and Heaslip are certain to be starting at 6 and 8 if fit. Just leave O'Brien at 7 and let him settle into the role. I think he's very good on the ground, and can be a hell of a lot better given his size. But he's been moved around too much in my opinion at Leinster. .

porterbelly · 03-01-2012 10:43pm

Johnny O Connor would have won 50 or 60 odd caps at 7 if it wasn't for injuries and being out of favour because he played at Wasps and Eddie refused to pick him for awhile, and when he moved back to Connacht it further diminished his chances

I'd recommend coaches show their up and coming young openside talents videos of how he goes about his business.

wixfjord · 03-01-2012 10:50pm

porterbelly wrote: »

Johnny O Connor would have won 50 or 60 odd caps at 7 if it wasn't for injuries and being out of favour because he played at Wasps and Eddie refused to pick him for awhile, and when he moved back to Connacht it further diminished his chances

I'd recommend coaches show their up and coming young openside talents videos of how he goes about his business.

Hmmm I think that might be a little green tinted.
Concrete is as hard as ****, and a good groundhog 7, but was he really better than Wallace or Easterby at international level? No imo.
Also, was he out of favour at Wasps?

To drop one of our current backrow, you'd need a fairly tasty 7, but there should at least have been an option put in place before the WC, Jennings was given little or no chance.

porterbelly · 03-01-2012 11:02pm

wixfjord wrote: »

Hmmm I think that might be a little green tinted.
Concrete is as hard as ****, and a good groundhog 7, but was he really better than Wallace or Easterby at international level? No imo.
Also, was he out of favour at Wasps?

To drop one of our current backrow, you'd need a fairly tasty 7, but there should at least have been an option put in place before the WC, Jennings was given little or no chance.

Easterby wasn't an openside.

He lost his place at Wasps because he got injured and Tom Rees came and did so well that they kept playing him. He'd be England's 7 today if he wasn't crocked.

Jennings isn't up to international level imo. He's a good club player, a good facilitator for O Brien and Heaslip and good link man but he hasn't the dog and bit of madness in him to make an international openside.

rugbyman2015 · 03-01-2012 11:03pm

all I can really hope for is that coaches around the country look to encourage the development of opensides and that in the long term we will see the development of a star player with qualities like pocock or neil back who will go on to play for ireland.

imo at the moment there are pretty much no genuine opensides in the provinces at the moment that will be playing in the 2015/2019 world cups. i'd like to see willie falloon getting more action with ulster for the rest of the season.

to answer a previous question: dominic ryan is more of a 6. he's known for some big tackling and likes to run with the ball a lot. had a decent run there with leinster last jan/feb but struggled to really nail down 1st team place this season.

jacothelad · 03-01-2012 11:08pm

rugbyman2015 wrote: »

all I can really hope for is that coaches around the country look to encourage the development of opensides and that in the long term we will see the development of a star player with qualities like pocock or neil back who will go on to play for ireland.

imo at the moment there are pretty much no genuine opensides in the provinces at the moment that will be playing in the 2015/2019 world cups. i'd like to see willie falloon getting more action with ulster for the rest of the season.

to answer a previous question: dominic ryan is more of a 6. he's known for some big tackling and likes to run with the ball a lot. had a decent run there with leinster last jan/feb but struggled to really nail down 1st team place this season.

The trouble is that he doesn't have the bulk and physicality of the top 7s. Neither does Ali Birch although he might bulk up I suppose.

desertcircus · 04-01-2012 12:42am

rugbyman2015 wrote: »

to answer a previous question: dominic ryan is more of a 6. he's known for some big tackling and likes to run with the ball a lot. had a decent run there with leinster last jan/feb but struggled to really nail down 1st team place this season.

In fairness, though, he's not yet 22 years old, and he's at a club with Jamie Heaslip, Sean O'Brien, Shane Jennings, Kevin McLaughlin and Rhys Ruddock also competing for a backrow jersey. He was desperately unlucky to get injured earlier this season, and by the time he was properly fit again the three who'd been away with the Ireland squad were back. When he was playing earlier this year, though, he was being picked at seven.

Absolutely bone-crunching tackler though. I think there's a video somewhere of him completely flattening Chris Cusiter when Ryan had just turned twenty.

Morf · 04-01-2012 12:53am

desertcircus wrote: »

Absolutely bone-crunching tackler though. I think there's a video somewhere of him completely flattening Chris Cusiter when Ryan had just turned twenty.

Completely blind-sided him and got pinged and yellow carded for harshly for not rolling away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqlrWcn_HmY

irishbucsfan · 04-01-2012 3:01am

Saying that a certain type of openside is vital is just unimaginative. Ireland's back row during the world cup was our best performing unit by quite a long way. We turned over just as much possession as anyone else and were probably more dangerous at the breakdown than anyone we played (absolutely including Wales, Heaslip outplayed Warburton at the breakdown by a mile in the QF). Not only that, but our defense on the openside of set pieces was faultless as far as I can remember. So what exactly would we have gained by playing a specialist openside?

How anyone could say we need to change anything in that back row is beyond me. Unless that person is George Hook of course. I play openside, and cannot Ireland gaining any benefit.

This whole topic is just another reason George Hook needs to be taken off the telly. Rubbish analysis which leads people who don't follow rugby regularly to talk sh1te!

Luckycharm · 04-01-2012 2:54pm

JustinDee wrote: »

Andy Ward and Kieron Dawson were world-class breakaways. Absolute hounds at breakdown but the former covered the blind side and the latter was very unlucky with injury. McBride was not a fetcher per se but one hell of a rover who harangued opposition halves and was quite a link man. He was about the number 7 role developed even further by legends Josh Kronfeld (best openside I've seen play) and Dave Wilson.

I wouldn't of called either WORLD class which IMHO would mean top 2/3 in their position at the time. Andy ward was alot better then Kieran Dawson who only got 21 caps and would have rated him a long way behind Keith Gleeson who was from roughly the same era.

JustinDee · 04-01-2012 3:34pm

Luckycharm wrote: »

I wouldn't of called either WORLD class which IMHO would mean top 2/3 in their position at the time. Andy ward was alot better then Kieran Dawson who only got 21 caps and would have rated him a long way behind Keith Gleeson who was from roughly the same era.

By World Class I just meant well capable of playing internationals. I'm not bothered who was better than who that much. Just yapping about two players who could play on the deck well. Dawson was the only one developed in Ireland too.
Gleeson was lined up ahead of George Smith as David Wilson's successor for the Wallabies and Andy Ward didn't come here until invited to play by Ballynahinch in his early twenties.

Luckycharm · 04-01-2012 3:52pm

JustinDee wrote: »

By World Class I just meant well capable of playing internationals. I'm not bothered who was better than who that much. Just yapping about two players who could play on the deck well. Dawson was the only one developed in Ireland too.
Gleeson was lined up ahead of George Smith as David Wilson's successor for the Wallabies and Andy Ward didn't come here until invited to play by Ballynahinch in his early twenties.

Going by your logic Anthony Horgan was World class

Was Dawson developed here he might have been schooled here played a little bit of club rugby but he went to play for London Irish at young age 21 where he played for 10 years.
Kieron Dawson (born 29 January 1975 in Bangor, County Down, Northern Ireland) He played for Bangor prior to his move to London Irish in 1996, he played 190 games in his 10 years at the Exiles.

buck65 · 04-01-2012 5:19pm

Must say in the past season or two I have taken a keen interest in blindsides, something I really didn't look at before but a good 7 just does enough to slow things down and even better one poaches the odd ball as well.
Alot of their work goes unnoticed - I think Niall Ronan has been very effective for Munster this season, sure, he's no international but I have been very impressed by his application and turnover ability. Seems to keep it very simple and doesn't get pinged too often.
Much maligned here, myself included, but he certainly has proven me wrong.

rugbyman2015 · 06-02-2012 12:09am

I see George Hook has reignited this debate over opensides after defeat to Wales.

Not sure if I see much wisdom in it but should Peter O'Mahony be given a shot in Paris next week?

Even though Warburton went off at half time, Wales maintained the balance of their back row by bringing on Tipuric, another natural 7 from Ospreys.

Any opinions on our back row people??

danthefan · 06-02-2012 12:09am

rugbyman2015 wrote: »

I see George Hook has reignited this debate over opensides after defeat to Wales.

Not sure if I see much wisdom in it but should Peter O'Mahony be given a shot in Paris next week?

Even though Warburton went off at half time, Wales maintained the balance of their back row by bringing on Tipuric, another natural 7 from Ospreys.

Any opinions on our back row people??

Since when is POM a natural 7?

durkadurka · 06-02-2012 12:18am

On twitter he changed his mind on heaslip and said drop ferris instead based on the sinbinning . That wasn't even a pen .

He wouldn't stfu about the back row.

marco_polo · 06-02-2012 12:19am

danthefan wrote: »

Since when is POM a natural 7?

Were you watching BBC or something, George annointed him around 6PM.

rugbyman2015 · 06-02-2012 12:23am

I'm not the one saying he is natural 7. Just going by the 'knowledge'

of hook and what journalists think.

I don't think he'd survive against the French in Paris. He's barely played for Munster at 7 at all.

marco_polo · 06-02-2012 12:29am

rugbyman2015 wrote: »

I'm not the one saying he is natural 7. Just going by the 'knowledge' of hook and what journalists think.

I don't think he'd survive against the French in Paris. He's barely played for Munster at 7 at all.

I think he would be just fine against the French, although it would be a pretty daunting place to earn your first cap. I'd consider starting him to freshen things up a bit and keep the other 3 on their toes, but he is not going to change the balance of the back row signifigently.

As for a world class ground hog, well as the saying goes if my auntie had ball she'd be my uncle :pac:, we don't have one so there is not much point obsessing on the matter too much. The backrow really is the up there amongst the least of our worries at the moment.

allprops · 06-02-2012 12:38am

Could dk not stick ferris into the second row, PoM, Sob, heaslip all in the back row?

boynesider · 06-02-2012 12:45am

Personally I think that the obsession with the "genuine openside" is completely over the top and is distracting from the real issues in the Irish team.

For some reason when one of these "loosies" come along a lot of rugby people wet themselves in excitement and go overboard in their praise (Sam Warburton being the most obvious example. Completely overrated and quite limited compared to the likes of O'Brien and Faletau).

The truth is that it is not a particularly crucial position in a rugby team. Leinster and Munster have dominated European rugby and swept aside all before them largely without an out-and-out seven (and Leinster whilst playing the most expansive game in the Northern Hemishpere). Ulster have been at their best this year with a backrow of Ferris, Henry and Wannenburg while their textbook openside Willie Faloon has been a bit part figure. If all the forwards do their jobs and get around the pitch the way they should, having someone as a designated fetcher shouldn't matter too much.

I believe that POM could do the job however, and Aaron Conneely and Conor Gilsenan of the u20's are both good prospects in this position. But in reality the Irish backrow is the least of my worries about the team. People are listening to George Hook far too much

Cpt_Blackbeard · 06-02-2012 12:45am

allprops wrote: »

Could dk not stick ferris into the second row, PoM, Sob, heaslip all in the back row?

I'm sure he could.

Tim Robbins · 06-02-2012 12:53am

There's a brilliant number 7 playing for Lansdowne J2; Rathdrum also have a decent fella at 7 and Arklow had a brilliant lad at 7 last season.

They were at every single breakdown early and had huge tackles counts. The Lansdowne fella was also pretty smart rolling the wrong the way after a tackle to make it harder - seeing how far he could push law.

All were classic 7's. Not the biggest player in the pack but easily the best tacklers and breakdown specialists in their teams.

Tim Robbins · 06-02-2012 12:57am

The truth is that it is not a particularly crucial position in a rugby team. Leinster and Munster have dominated European rugby and swept aside all before them largely without an out-and-out seven (and Leinster whilst playing the most expansive game in the Northern Hemishpere).

Jennings, Gleeson, Ronan are all classic 7's.

Standard lower in Heineken Cup. None of the Welsh sides are a patch on the Welsh national team. You do very well in the H Cup, just playing ten man rugby or getting a few home draws.

budhabob · 06-02-2012 11:04am

The person who has impressed me most with their work on the ground over the last season or two has been Varley. He seems to have great technique. Obviously you couldnt justify his inclusion over Best though.

corny · 06-02-2012 11:43am

marco_polo wrote: »

The backrow really is the up there amongst the least of our worries at the moment.

True.

The Welsh went through phases of possession because they threw 4 or 5 into each ruck regardless of the number on their back. Even a natural 7 can't have a huge bearing when he's smashed back by numbers. By comparison our forwards either stood in midfield too often (can't count how many times i saw Conor Murray bridging in the ruck) or weren't mobile enough to get around. Bradley Davies probably hit twice as many rucks as DOC for example.

Tigerandahalf · 06-02-2012 12:04pm

Brian O Driscoll is probably the finest openside flanker we never had!
We tried to play an open game last 6 nations but got penalised out of the games as we werent able to control the rucks. I also remember that we knocked the ball on a huge amount. Im not sure if our players have the skills and without a world class 7 who can get from ruck to ruck it is v hard to play that game.
I read someone else commenting on how few mistakes wales made. Id love to know how many knockons they had. The had such control for a first game and some of them hadnt played in a while.

yimrsg · 06-02-2012 3:13pm

The perceived problem with Ireland's backrow based on securing quick ball at rucks is worsened by having POC taking too much ball. The problem is he's a willing ball carrier, infact too willing, taking ball which either should go to a back or a better ball carrier as he doesn't break tackles or make hard yards. When he goes into contact, he isn't as potent at making yards as Ferris, Healy, SOB or Heaslip are so usually one or more of the above have to go in to help retain possession, blunting our own offensive potency.

All our backrow can carry ball, but they're stifled somewhat when POC and other forwards become receivers, half of Ireland's starting forwards yesterday would be average at best ball carriers internationally and the other half are exceptional on their day, Best, Ross and the second row pairing should concentrate on clearing out ball with help from one or more of the 4 most potent carriers. I know that's not always possible in a match scenario but like the way Murray and Sexton kicked far too often it seems to be a fixed tactic for Ireland at interational level and it's simply inept letting it continue unabated.

When defending and hunting for turnovers our backrow isn't as potent as other international sides, Heaslip is the closest to a natural 7 currently in forcing turnovers. POM is no more a 7 at this level than SOB is, he's abrasive, physical and in the oppostion's face in the HC but I wouldn't consider him to be the solution to addressing the problem of backrow balacnce. SOB very often gets into position at rucks to force turnovers but he concedes too many penalties, he's still learning to play 7 at this level but hopefully he'll improve given time. With his strength he could be a phenomenal 7 if he gets his body position and arrival right, it's a mentality and technique adjustment that's required. It's inevitable that as he improves as a groundhog 7, we'll lose some of his ball carrying ability as he progressively looks not to carry but secure fast ball.

Ideally we'd like all 3 of our backrowers as pure ball carrying machines but no side can have that as they'd inevitably lose out to a side with a groundhog. France haven't got a pure groundhog like Pocock, Warburton etc but they still have balance, with most combinations of Dusauitor, Bonnaire, Harinordoquy and Picamoles the French still manage to tick all the boxes required for the backrow. Picamoles is a brilliant ball carrier, and the other 3 can do it all, rather than being specialists in a certain position (bar Picamoles) they're generalists, between them capable of doing a fine job collectively. Ireland should mimic the French model, rather than try copy Australia or Wales as we don't have an out-and-out 7 to use so we have to adjust accordingly. The French 2nd rowers aren't constantly used in to carry ball instead to clean out rucks. Put POC's willingness to work not at carrying ball, instead at clearing rucks and then see the difference.

Otacon · 06-02-2012 3:18pm

Not every player can be a SOB-like ball carrier though. POC is a big guy and was useful in taking in defenders yesterday. That is how he should and often is used. But when we do not commit enough players to the ruck to secure it, we give the Wales backrow licence to slow us down.

yimrsg · 06-02-2012 3:26pm

Otacon wrote: »

Not every player can be a SOB-like ball carrier though. POC is a big guy and was useful in taking in defenders yesterday. That is how he should and often is used. But when we do not commit enough players to the ruck to secure it, we give the Wales backrow licence to slow us down.

He takes in defenders because he doesn't break the gain line and the opposition can sniff a turnover when he carrys ball. Committing extra players to a poor carrier (no offence to POC) only exacerbates the problem. He shouldn't be receiving ball in the first place. He's probably the 6th best ball carrier in the starting pack yesterday.

d-gal · 06-02-2012 3:44pm

The thing with POC is his sheer workload. He goes thru so many carries and rucks, you never see him standing about, he is everywhere. He just gives the option of carrying everytime, always looking for work.

POM will give a balance coz he won't look for the ball everytime. He does his primary job and rucks and tackles everything. If heaslip/SOB/ferris drop to the bench then it will give a balance. Or backrow just cannot click together yet and we need a guy who is doing the basics well so we can 'let loose' the tanks (ferris/sob)

tolosenc · 06-02-2012 3:45pm

Our back row is fine, and didn't cost us either game against Wales. Ideally, we'd have someone like Dom Ryan in the team, who can slow the ball down and do an above average amount of work on the ground, but is still a huge ball carrier.

I think our main problem is at 12, to be honest. It's an era of 6 foot 4, 17 stone crash ball merchants, and we're finding it tough to compete.

yimrsg · 06-02-2012 4:01pm

d-gal wrote: »

The thing with POC is his sheer workload. He goes thru so many carries and rucks, you never see him standing about, he is everywhere. He just gives the option of carrying everytime, always looking for work.

POM will give a balance coz he won't look for the ball everytime. He does his primary job and rucks and tackles everything. If heaslip/SOB/ferris drop to the bench then it will give a balance. Or backrow just cannot click together yet and we need a guy who is doing the basics well so we can 'let loose' the tanks (ferris/sob)

Do you honestly think that POM is an international class 7 in the making? He's a 6 for Munster and bringing him in to the present backrow whilst failing to stop poor ball carryers receiving ball isn't going to change a thing.

The backrow is looking poor as a result of the failure to clear out rucks and there being too many ball carriers and not enough players willing to dirty their jumpers.

There hasn't been a single match in the last 2 seasons where all 3 of the backrowers played well and were prominent through out. All 3 of the starters for yesterday know how to do the basics, the problem is they're required to do much basics.

Ireland-Openside Flankers

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