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ASTI: Schools considering dropping vital LC subjects

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    #62
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    benway wrote: »
    Bubble collapsed five years ago, chemistry, physics and economics have shown no sign of any rebound. Not such a precise coincidence.



    Here's a wild one, maybe a significant people pick certain courses of study because they're genuinely interested in that area? I did a Masters that improved my employment prospects and remuneration not one iota, and I have no regrets.



    This has precisely nothing to do with the OP? Very few want to study economics, so schools are dropping it. The markets have spoken.

    Of course, maybe it might be a good thing for these subjects to be supported because this would be a rational course, even if student numbers are low, because of their importance?



    You like assuming things, don't you? Again, we're five years in, most of the LC students now were in 1st year when the bubble burst. We should already have seen the effects.



    Which is the sole criterion for its being promoted ... in your world.



    The height of your aspirations may be to exist as a multinational drone, but for some of us, a connection with our history, culture and language opens the door to a richer and more meaningful world. Nationalism, in the political sense, has nothing to do with it.


    Going to back any of this up? I would say that you're completely wrong, and that Permabear is pretty damn correct, based on the evidence.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/cao-reveals-dramatic-increase-in-interest-in-science-courses-542829.html
    CAO reveals dramatic increase in interest in science courses
    Friday, March 09, 2012 - 07:09 AM

    The number of students expressing a first preference for science courses in college is up.

    Figures released by the Central Applications Office show a jump of nearly 18.5% on last year's figure, and more than 60% over the last five years.

    It comes as no surprise that more and more students are considering a career in high tech science sectors, as the Government and business world have pointed them in this direction in recent years.

    The CAO said appplications for computer science at NUI Maynooth is up 60% and 44% in UCD.

    The Higher Education Authority has welcomed the surge in interest in science courses.

    The body stressed that it is vital for Ireland's future economic growth and social development that we have a greater number of graduates in science and technology.

    Meanwhile, interest in courses which would lead to jobs in the construction sector fell 70% in the same time period.

    Overall, this year's number of CAO applications is up by about 400.


    so...?


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    #63
    Joe 90
    Registered Users Posts: 891 ✭✭✭Joe 90


    Spacedog wrote: »
    Corrupt governments can't have a population widely intelligent in issues of scientific reasoning, economics or accountancy. They need an ignorant population to swallow their bulls**t
    In my day at school I reckoned it was the church that didn't like the sciences.


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    #64
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,114 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Joe 90 wrote: »
    In my day at school I reckoned it was the church that didn't like the sciences.

    Was Galileo in your class ?


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    #65
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    This is about secondary schools, not third level. CAO applications are apropos of nothing at all with regard to the topic at hand. Thought these figures were in this thread, turns out it's from the other thread OP started.

    A quick glance at examinations.ie stats:

    Subject|2003|2009|2010|2011
    Physics:|8806|6924|6745|6516
    Chemistry:|6698|7403|7548|7677
    P&C:|933|519|425|472
    Biology:|22671|28101|29249|30349
    Economics:|4843|4578|4975|4796


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    #66
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Seriously, will some of you please read a bloody newspaper, or at least do a search on google for a few articles before you people come on here with such absolutely random waffle; waffling on as if you know what you're talking about.

    It's embarrassing (I'm embarrassed for you) and it's irritating to see such lack of scope, research and logic applied to these, pretty much insignificant, cutbacks.

    The only lesson I'm learning here, is that I must ensure that my kids will never have to see the inside of a public school. By the time I have kids, they'll probably only be teaching Irish and Religion while still being some of the highest paid teachers on the planet. The vast majority of spending goes into wages. So if there isn't money to hire more, blame the ASTI's of this world. Because they created this system, with help from FF, of course.


    Oh and I posted this in the other thread, so I might as well post it here too - relates to the rise in Science applications in the CAO:
    CAO reveals dramatic increase in interest in science courses
    Friday, March 09, 2012 - 07:09 AM

    The number of students expressing a first preference for science courses in college is up.

    Figures released by the Central Applications Office show a jump of nearly 18.5% on last year's figure, and more than 60% over the last five years.

    It comes as no surprise that more and more students are considering a career in high tech science sectors, as the Government and business world have pointed them in this direction in recent years.

    The CAO said appplications for computer science at NUI Maynooth is up 60% and 44% in UCD.

    The Higher Education Authority has welcomed the surge in interest in science courses.

    The body stressed that it is vital for Ireland's future economic growth and social development that we have a greater number of graduates in science and technology.

    Meanwhile, interest in courses which would lead to jobs in the construction sector fell 70% in the same time period.

    Overall, this year's number of CAO applications is up by about 400.


    Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/cao-reveals-dramatic-increase-in-interest-in-science-courses-542829.html#ixzz1rB9iO0Eo


    Have Religion and Irish received the same kind of upsurge in the CAO? I somehow doubt it.


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    #67
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    benway wrote: »
    This is about secondary schools, not third level. CAO applications are apropos of nothing at all with regard to the topic at hand. Thought these figures were in this thread, turns out it's from the other thread OP started.

    A quick glance at examinations.ie stats:

    Subject|2003|2009|2010|2011
    Physics:|8806|6924|6745|6516
    Chemistry:|6698|7403|7548|7677
    P&C:|933|519|425|472
    Biology:|22671|28101|29249|30349
    Economics:|4843|4578|4975|4796


    Sorry, what? What are these stats? Number of people taking the subjects for the leaving cert? You realise that those figures account for massive percentages of the roughly 55k who take the LC each year?

    You're wrong, just admit it and save what face is left to save :)


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    #68
    Joe 90
    Registered Users Posts: 891 ✭✭✭Joe 90


    jmayo wrote: »
    Was Galileo in your class ?
    Not quite but it's long enough ago that John Hume was one of my teachers. Wnt to school in the North but Irish was still force fed to us.

    But seriously, I reckoned that the church didn't like science/technology because it helped society to change quickly while the church reacted slowly. I can remember a priest one Sunday, must have been in the late 50s, giving a sermon about the dangers of television how it would introduce new ideas into your living room.

    In the North, in a Catholic school, the reason that Irish was compulsory was that it was needed for National university. Queens was tolerated and Trinity was still regarded as a den of Protestant sin. In fact I remember hearing, late 60s, thet if you went to Trinity without the written permission of the bishop your whole family were deemed to be living in sin.

    Of course, in the North, I don't know about the South, there was another reason for the the church to want lots of language teachers. As anyone could get a BA with a bit of work and someone with a degree of any sort could become a teacher after a short course lots of priests got BAs and became teachers. Then the nice trick was that the priest's salary as a teacher was paid into diocesan funds and the priest got a few quid pocket money.


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    #69
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Peanut wrote: »
    (Don't forget that any compulsory subject will be significantly more costly in terms of resource consumption compared to optional subjects.)

    Dunno about you but none of the Irish teachers in the school I went to were capable of teaching science or business subjects. The same is true for the schools my sisters went to, and many of the schools in Galway from what my friends tell me.

    Since the teachers in question can't be fired to make room for the "productive" teachers, what resources are you hoping to free up?

    Or are we just going to try to convert the little old lady who doesn't know a beaker from Behan, who doesn't have the ability to explain the fraud that is the marxist theory of utility magically into somebody who understands the subjects well enough to teach them?


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    #70
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    You're wrong, just admit it and save what face is left to save :)

    Fraid not, sunshine. The egg is very firmly on your face here.

    You do know what the CAO is, right? And the difference between secondary schools and third level?

    OP is saying that the numbers doing science subjects should've increased since the bubble burst. They haven't. In fact, the numbers doing Physics are way down on 2003.

    And, divided among the 750 odd post-primary schools in the country, those are some meagre class sizes.

    In short, pure ideological drivel. Anything but say that there's a case to be made for supporting these subjects and actively promoting them. Because that would be Market Distorting Government Intervention™ and A Bad Thing.


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    #71
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Peanut wrote: »
    And yet, the same old arguments about "our culture" continue every time this subject is raised, on this site and elsewhere.

    Even more embarrassingly, it's trotted out simultaneously with the nonsense about us being the most educated nation in Europe...these days, I feel like we're living in the novel Orwell never had the chance to write.


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    #72
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,114 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Like in a lot of things in Ireland our education system has been made a bags of in comparison to what it was decades ago.

    In the 90s the government it seems decided that it was better to keep students in college rather than let them fail and possibly go striaght on dole.
    Thus you found the calibre of graduates slipped as students who shouldn't really graduate were making it through.

    Then once again someone decided that everyone and their dog, regardless of ability or aptitude, should have the opportunity to go to some sort of third level college.
    Did the failure rates skyrocket with all the extra students ?
    No we just pumped out more graduates and as I always say "quantity does not equal quality".

    Then it was discovered not enough kids were doing higher level Maths and the Leaving Cert grades in the subject were slipping.
    Instead of trying to improve the teaching and incentives to study the subject, the powers that be decided the best thing to do to improve the statistics was to make it easier.

    A fooking typical bertie era style solution. (and I am not sure exactly what year that the curriculum changed and if it was the burton led shower or not, but it was his type of solution).

    The same thing has been done in the health system to make the numbers on trolleys in A&E appear to lower.
    You just come up with some easy way to massage the figures to give the desired result. :rolleyes:
    Funnily enough it is always the easy cheap solution that doesn't discommode the workforce. :rolleyes:

    Instead of learning a lesson from the sheer economic stupidity of a large chunk of the Irish population over the last decade and introducing compulsory subjects like basic economics and accountancy we are probably going to cut these altogether from many schools.


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    #73
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    benway wrote: »
    Fraid not, sunshine. The egg is very firmly on your face here.

    You do know what the CAO is, right? And the difference between secondary schools and third level?

    OP is saying that the numbers doing science subjects should've increased since the bubble burst. They haven't. In fact, the numbers doing Physics are way down on 2003.

    And, divided among the 750 odd post-primary schools in the country, those are some meagre class sizes.

    In short, pure ideological drivel. Anything but say that there's a case to be made for supporting these subjects and actively promoting them. Because that would be Market Distorting Government Intervention™ and A Bad Thing.

    I'm not going to bother if you're not going to dispute any of my evidence. Simply saying I'm wrong and refusing to back it up (Or just saying something as if that makes it fact), does not a wrong rojomcdojo make.

    I'm curious to know what you believe should happen instead? Perhaps we can all become Irish speaking priests? Pft.

    You're saying that interest is waning within science subjects, yet all the evidence points to a resurgence of people who are looking to make a career in the scientific sector. :confused:


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    #74
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9



    Could we have less of the sniping please. Thread merged from the Irish Economy as it was going along similar lines.

    Points are up for science subjects but numbers taking physics and chemistry at Leaving Cert level hasn't increased, nor economics, so both arguments have a point from my reading.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #75
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    I'm not going to bother if you're not going to dispute any of my evidence. Simply saying I'm wrong and refusing to back it up (Or just saying something as if that makes it fact), does not a wrong rojomcdojo make.

    I'm curious to know what you believe should happen instead? Perhaps we can all become Irish speaking priests? Pft.

    You're saying that interest is waning within science subjects, yet all the evidence points to a resurgence of people who are looking to make a career in the scientific sector. :confused:

    For the record, I think that an active effort should be made to encourage more students to take up these subjects - be it bonus points, individual tuition, a revised curriculum, sponsored field trips, whatever.

    Also, I think the funding should be made available, by hook or by crook, to have fully supplied labs and qualified teachers in every single school for physics and chemistry.

    Anyway, the figures speak for themselves, taken from the Department website. The relevant evidence. The numbers taking the subjects in question are basically unchanged from the peak of the boom, give or take a drop in Physics.

    Unless you're querying the figures, or they're suspect by association with Big Bad Government™.

    This is a discussion about subjects being dropped at Second Level. The CAO applications show demand for subjects at Third Level.

    These cows are small, these ones are far away.

    *** Didn't see mod warning before posting - not having a go, I'm just surprised that rojo can't see my point. Edit/delete at will.


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    #76
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    K-9 wrote: »

    Could we have less of the sniping please. Thread merged from the Irish Economy as it was going along similar lines.

    Points are up for science subjects but numbers taking physics and chemistry at Leaving Cert level hasn't increased, nor economics, so both arguments have a point from my reading.

    How long did it take before everyone was doing a computer degree after the IT boom? A few years (the height was around 02/03), yes? The CAO applications are most definitely more valid than leaving cert numbers in that you are severely limited in what you can take in most public schools (I certainly was, if you took one you couldn't take another etc).

    Show me figures in 5 years time, when the evidence of people receiving practically useless (as in, not needed) degrees and ending up on the dole trickles down to the students through their parents etc.

    I'm actually baffled at how you can overlook such obvious flaws in Benways' argument.


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    #77
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    The CAO applications are most definitely more valid than leaving cert numbers

    No they're not. Let's move on, shall we?

    You can say tomato all you like, and I'll say tomato.


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    #78
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #79
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    benway wrote: »
    No they're not. Let's move on, shall we?

    You can say tomato all you like, and I'll say tomato.

    Ok so we'll leave it as: Nobody wants to do science in school. But then a sizable proportion of them then decide in sixth year that they want a career in the field, having never even thought of taking the subject before.

    Logic wins again.


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    #80
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    Rojomcdojo wrote:
    This post had been deleted.

    Who said that? Number for chemistry and physics are low, in or around 10 students each per secondary school. Numbers for biology are through the roof.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Ugh, not going to dignify. It's not that it won't, it's that it clearly hasn't. Can't be taken as a given that it will, either - as you know, I don't share your faith in human rationality, or market forces. What's wrong with a little subtle, or not so subtle prompting?

    And biology is only there as a control - it's chemistry and physics that are at issue here. Although, maybe a much tougher biology curriculum might be in everyone's interests, make it seem like less of a soft option, and give students a thorough scientific education in the process.

    ***

    Edit: actually, isn't it a thing that certain science courses require one of chemistry, physics and biology for matriculation? But only one, except for in rare circumstances?
    Additionally, the most recent statistics are from Leaving Cert 2011. Most people who did their exams in 2011 would have started the Leaving Cert cycle and chosen their subjects back in 2009. So, clearly, the 2011 numbers don't show the full impact of the economic collapse.

    Fair point, to an extent ... although I would hope that these students and their parents weren't living in a bubble from 2007 till then. I would have thought that they would have shown more of an impact than they, in fact, do.


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    #81
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    It could be that many who did Physics and Chemistry just didn't go onto to do Science, now more do.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.


    Biology showed a big increase but we aren't really discussing it as it isn't under threat with huge numbers taking it.

    Chemistry showed a 13/14% increase which isn't bad but you ignored Physics and a 20% drop. Edit\: A 25% drop, very worrying.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #82
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    K-9 wrote: »
    It could be that many who did Physics and Chemistry just didn't go onto to do Science, now more do.

    I did both, ended up studying Law.
    K-9 wrote: »
    Chemistry showed a 13/14% increase which isn't bad but you ignored Physics and a 20% drop. Edit\: A 25% drop, very worrying.

    Which basically cancel each other out, so I'd regard the numbers taking "hard" science as pretty much static. I think I'm perfectly justified in the assertion that there hasn't been an appreciable increase.

    Plus, when those numbers are divided between 750-odd secondary schools, it's not a pretty picture.

    I really think that a lot of this comes down to biology being seen as an easy option, and a banker to satisfy the science subject matriculation requirement.

    I think someone's already pointed out here, or maybe in AH that a lot of third level science students are totally unprepared for the rigours of their courses, maybe this has something to do with it.

    But, again, it's secondary schools that we're looking at here, not third level.


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    #83
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #84
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Ah ferchrissakes, who is saying this? I have been talking about physics and chemistry and economics at secondary school level. These are the subjects under threat in the OP, remember? Biology is only there as a reference. It's not about science subjects in general. Just to refresh your memory:
    benway wrote:
    Bubble collapsed five years ago, chemistry, physics and economics have shown no sign of any rebound. Not such a precise coincidence.

    Between the figures for the three, it think it's fair to say that there hasn't been any rebound. I think we really need to move on from this...


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    #85
    Suryavarman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭Suryavarman


    K-9 wrote: »
    It could be that many who did Physics and Chemistry just didn't go onto to do Science, now more do.




    Biology showed a big increase but we aren't really discussing it as it isn't under threat with huge numbers taking it.

    Chemistry showed a 13/14% increase which isn't bad but you ignored Physics and a 20% drop. Edit\: A 25% drop, very worrying.

    The drop in physics could have something to do with scaremongering over the difficulty of the maths used in the subject. If students find that they struggle with maths and are lead to believe that a subject requires a high standard of maths to succeed in, then they are less likely to choose to do that subject. While I doubt that theory can account for all drop off in physics, I'd imagine that it can explain a large amount of it.


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    #86
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    As K9 has alluded to, I don't think either side are 100% correct.

    Clearly there is greater demand for scientific degrees at third level institutions.

    However, going on benway's evidence, it appears that this may simply be representative of technically minded school-kids who already study physics, chemistry or higher level maths (dare I add the slightly more starry eyed economic theory?) choosing to pursue careers in those areas instead of other technical subjects like engineering and architecture, which have fallen out of favour. The rise in popularity for science is just not reflected in schools.

    There was a (now) famous article in the Economic and Social Review from 2009 which found a clear labour market advantage to Irish speakers in the professional,managerial and technical classes, even when other labour market attributes were controlled out of the analysis.

    http://www.esr.ie/Vol40_4/Borooah.pdf


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    #87
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Indeed, but a 25% drop in physics is worrying and economics had barely moved. As benway said biology tends to be the most accessible and obviously isn't under threat.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #88
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Suryavarman wrote: »
    The drop in physics could have something to do with scaremongering over the difficulty of the maths used in the subject. If students find that they struggle with maths and are lead to believe that a subject requires a high standard of maths to succeed in, then they are less likely to choose to do that subject. While I doubt that theory can account for all drop off in physics, I'd imagine that it can explain a large amount of it.

    Indeed, that's often the perception with Accountancy as well, it's useful but not as important as people think.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #89
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    later12 wrote: »
    Clearly there is greater demand for scientific degrees at third level institutions.

    I think we all agree on that.

    But, at second level, which is what this thread is actually about, there has been no increase in the number of students taking chemistry and physics, which is why they're under threat of cuts, despite being, imho, much more useful in career terms.

    My guess, again, is that secondary students need a science subject for matriculation to certain science courses, and plump for biology because it's seen as the soft option.

    Again, I don't think many courses specifically require students to have studied chemistry or physics, certainly not the general science courses.

    And, again, teachers have noted that many students are entering these courses woefully unprepared. Seems that the focus on points rather than skills is part of what's at issue here.

    In any event, I think that efforts should be made to actively promote chemistry and physics, by any means necessary. Ensuring that funds are available to teach both in every secondary school in the country, to a high standard, would be a good start.

    10/11 students per school taking each of leaving cert physics and chemistry isn't good enough, and I don't think letting laws of supply and demand dictate that they be dropped altogether is acceptable, either.


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    #90
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    benway wrote: »
    But, at second level, which is what this thread is actually about, there has been no increase in the number of students taking chemistry and physics, which is why they're under threat of cuts, despite being, imho, much more useful in career terms.

    My guess, again, is that secondary students need a science subject for matriculation to certain science courses, and plump for biology because it's seen as the soft option.
    This was certainly the view of students when I was in secondary twenty years ago, seems nothing has changed.

    With three schools involved and a population of over 250 students amongst the three schools, there were 9 chemistry students, 8 physics students, and in the end, 8 higher maths students, all of the classes I am talking about were higher level.

    Every one of the three schools offered biology and those classes were full (20+ students in each)

    Similiar with languages, there were three Higher German students out of all three schools, and in Accounting there were nine students.

    Tiny percentage of students overall involved in those subjects. Home ec for the girls and woodwork for the guys was full :)

    The higher maths students ended up being in a class with ordinary level as students dropped out, it started out with 30 and got whittled down

    The other classes (apart from German) were all dedicated higher level, and the lower PTR was beneficial (apart from the day I blew a hole in the ceiling during a phosphorous experiement (iirc)) and the then 8 months pregnant teacher almost went into premature labour :)


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    #91
    Suryavarman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭Suryavarman


    Stheno wrote: »
    With three schools involved and a population of over 250 students amongst the three schools, there were 9 chemistry students, 8 physics students, and in the end, 8 higher maths students, all of the classes I am talking about were higher level.

    The three schools had only 250 students put together? Thats more shocking than the class sizes. Why on earth didn't the three schools amalgamate into one?


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