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ASTI: Schools considering dropping vital LC subjects

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    #32
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    later12 wrote: »
    While I don't think the study of economics at school is critically important for the economy, I should point out that that wasn't an endorsement of your statement about ideological brainwashing either. My experience of economics at third level would be completely at odds with what you are suggesting, and there is no shortage of academic work by economists with left wing leanings.

    To be fair, I was having a slightly tongue-in-cheek dig at mainstream economics. I fully recognise that it's as sophisticated as any other discipline in the social sciences - back-handed compliment if ever there was one - with diverse, competing viewpoint.

    Really, though I'm thinking about narrow, hegemonic neoclassical economics, which seems, to some, to be all that counts as Real Economics™. Agree wholeheartedly with this article, which I previously posted in OP's other thread about this:

    http://www.iasc-culture.org/publications_article_2010_Summer_mirowski.php

    Really though, the issue here shouldn't be the particular subjects that are under threat, but the fact that there's a perceived need to cut at all. It's not in the teachers' interests any more than it's in the childrens'.

    Austerity. Is. Not. Working.

    But, of course, some of you are only too happy to spin this into more fodder for the Privatise Fúcking Everything ideological compost heap and leave it at that.


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    #33
    sarumite
    Registered Users Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    benway wrote: »

    Really though, the issue here shouldn't be the particular subjects that are under threat, but the fact that there's a perceived need to cut at all. It's not in the teachers' interests any more than it's in the childrens'.

    Austerity. Is. Not. Working.

    But, of course, some of you are only too happy to spin this into more fodder for the Privatise Fúcking Everything ideological compost heap and leave it at that.

    There shouldn't be a need to cut subjects. Though when you have poorly implemented austerity where you have a government saying that the big ticket items like Social welfare and public sector pay are ring fenced from cuts and income taxes cannot be increased and instead we cull worthwhile things like capital expenditure, I am not surprised that unnecessary cuts are being discussed. (to use the overused butcher analogy - sorry!) If we can't trim the fat from those areas, we are left cutting meat from others.


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    #34
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    sarumite wrote: »
    There shouldn't be a need to cut subjects. Though when you have poorly implemented austerity where you have a government saying that the big ticket items like Social welfare and public sector pay are ring fenced from cuts and income taxes cannot be increased and instead we cull worthwhile things like capital expenditure, I am not surprised that unnecessary cuts are being discussed. (to use the overused butcher analogy - sorry!) If we can't trim the fat from those areas, we are left cutting meat from others.

    I would propose that it most certainly isn't the government who are ring-fencing the PS and welfare budgets, but rather the people themselves. Try to cut one or the other in any sort of meaningful way and watch Dublin choke with 100's of thousands of people on the street with their Union/SF/ULA banners.


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    #35
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    sarumite wrote: »
    There shouldn't be a need to cut subjects. Though when you have poorly implemented austerity where you have a government saying that the big ticket items like Social welfare and public sector pay are ring fenced from cuts and income taxes cannot be increased and instead we cull worthwhile things like capital expenditure, I am not surprised that unnecessary cuts are being discussed. (to use the overused butcher analogy - sorry!) If we can't trim the fat from those areas, we are left cutting meat from others.

    And where raising taxes, or other revenue-positive measures are simply off the agenda. There's a sacred cow that needs slaughtering, if you have that knife handy.


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    #36
    vamos!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 525 ✭✭✭vamos!


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Not coincidentally these are the subjects with the lowest take-up rates. My school is cutting German. They can't afford to have classes with 12, 16 and 18 students when they could have a full French or Spanish class. Ditto for some of the sciences and accounting. Schools are not using the fact that these subjects are important as leverage. Schools never want to cut subjects. The simple facts are that the PTR has increased and schools are being forced to have full classes, as there is no longer scope for flexibility. There is no way that the unions are using it as a threat- this move will cost jobs (mine included!)


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    #37
    goose2005
    Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    And yet another has passed with the bottom 0.00% of teachers being fired, while 100.00% have kept their jobs.


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    #38
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    If I was an anarcho-capitalist, I don't think I'd be too disappointed at this development. Any student who wanted to study chemistry would still have the option to do so, albeit privately (if they could afford it). And that's not always such a bad thing (unless they can't afford it - in which case, it's a bad thing). When I was at school, a few of my classmates did extra LC subjects outside of school hours. They did exceptionally well, partly because the fact that money was changing hands placed extra pressure on them (and, let's make no bones about this, the teachers too) to achieve better results than you might in a standard one-size-fits-all classroom, where there is no connection between a teacher's competence and their job security.


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    #39
    sarumite
    Registered Users Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    benway wrote: »
    And where raising taxes, or other revenue-positive measures are simply off the agenda. There's a sacred cow that needs slaughtering, if you have that knife handy.

    There is more than one sacred cow. (and I mentioned income tax increases in my post).


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    #40
    sarumite
    Registered Users Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    I would propose that it most certainly isn't the government who are ring-fencing the PS and welfare budgets, but rather the people themselves. Try to cut one or the other in any sort of meaningful way and watch Dublin choke with 100's of thousands of people on the street with their Union/SF/ULA banners.

    The Government made 3 promises, to stick to the CPA, no cuts in SW and no income tax increases. All three promises need to be broken.


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    #41
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I have to agree with this. It seems very unusual when the study talks about the removal of a quota for a teacher for guidance counselling and a 2% reduction in school capitation grants for trips and tours = Dropping Science and Business subjects

    :confused:

    Look at the paper, it says the areas most affected by the moratorium have been pastoral care and administration since 2009.

    Again, how does cuts in pastoral care and admin have any an effect of dropping a science or business subject?

    Sounds like grade-A bull to me. Putting the gun to students and families for their own greed and pro-actively going after some of the most important subjects on purpose.

    Then again, I ain't surprised, I spent more time off in 6th year years ago thanks to Teachers striking then I did in class.


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    #42
    vamos!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 525 ✭✭✭vamos!


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    I have to agree with this. It seems very unusual when the study talks about the removal of a quota for a teacher for guidance counselling and a 2% reduction in school capitation grants for trips and tours = Dropping Science and Business subjects

    :confused:

    Look at the paper, it says the areas most affected by the moratorium have been pastoral care and administration since 2009.

    Again, how does cuts in pastoral care and admin have any an effect of dropping a science or business subject?
    .

    If the guidance counsellor has to be counted as a teacher for the sake of the PTR then a teacher from the school must be let go as the school is over quota. That does not mean that guidance will cease to exist, they will keep their post but the 5th year ag science class of 15 and the economics class of 15 will become a business class of 30 instead. The school loses 22 hours of teaching. That equates to one job (or two or even three part-timers). That exercise counts for 4x40 min periods a week and must be repeated across the school until it comes to 22 hours. Then the reduced allocation for resource, traveller education and EAL support comes in to play. That adds up to a lot of minority subjects being lost. It also adds up to jobs being lost, the possibility of TY and LCA being affected and the distinct possibility of HL, OL and foundation level English, Irish or maths eventually taking place in the same room if the cuts continue. Progressive ideas like teaching Chinese and Japanese will also be lost. Students will lose their choices and teachers will lose their jobs. This won't show on official figures as it will be the part-timers who have to be let go. The permanent staff may no longer be able to teach a full timetable of their own subjects and will end up teaching subjects for which they are not qualified. This is the reality- it has nothing to do with using the children as pawns to protect CPA and terms. The government and media have really succeeded in their divide and conquer approach. Parents and society as a whole are not upset that the next generation will ultimately lose out - they are much more concerned with blaming the greedy teachers who have no say in how the timetable is managed. This is a government issue, not a teaching one.


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    #43
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    vamos! wrote: »
    If the guidance counsellor has to be counted as a teacher for the sake of the PTR then a teacher from the school must be let go as the school is over quota. That does not mean that guidance will cease to exist, they will keep their post but the 5th year ag science class of 15 and the economics class of 15 will become a business class of 30 instead. The school loses 22 hours of teaching. That equates to one job (or two or even three part-timers). That exercise counts for 4x40 min periods a week and must be repeated across the school until it comes to 22 hours. Then the reduced allocation for resource, traveller education and EAL support comes in to play. That adds up to a lot of minority subjects being lost. It also adds up to jobs being lost, the possibility of TY and LCA being affected and the distinct possibility of HL, OL and foundation level English, Irish or maths eventually taking place in the same room if the cuts continue. Progressive ideas like teaching Chinese and Japanese will also be lost. Students will lose their choices and teachers will lose their jobs. This won't show on official figures as it will be the part-timers who have to be let go. The permanent staff may no longer be able to teach a full timetable of their own subjects and will end up teaching subjects for which they are not qualified. This is the reality- it has nothing to do with using the children as pawns to protect CPA and terms. The government and media have really succeeded in their divide and conquer approach. Parents and society as a whole are not upset that the next generation will ultimately lose out - they are much more concerned with blaming the greedy teachers who have no say in how the timetable is managed. This is a government issue, not a teaching one.

    I think when 70+% of a departments budget goes straight into pay and pension, the Government has very little room to wiggle so any other cut is going to hurt a lot more for society.

    I don't blame new teachers, they seem to be on realistic salaries and do not get the huge perks their older colleagues get, but it is the previous generations of teachers who are really gobbling up the budget. You can't really blame the Government either, sure most of them are teachers anyway.


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    #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    sarumite wrote: »
    The Government made 3 promises, to stick to the CPA, no cuts in SW and no income tax increases. All three promises need to be broken.

    And why did they make these promises?

    vamos! wrote: »
    The permanent staff may no longer be able to teach a full timetable of their own subjects and will end up teaching subjects for which they are not qualified. This is the reality- it has nothing to do with using the children as pawns to protect CPA and terms.

    Don't we already have teachers educating students on subjects they aren't qualified to teach? This has EVERYTHING to do with the CPA and the union members are most certainly using the children as pawns. Everything you said in your post related to the only possible cuts being to resources, rather than wages which is 100% due to the CPA. Logic?


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    #45
    WolfgangWeisen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 238 ✭✭WolfgangWeisen


    Lemming wrote: »
    Considering that the vast, vast bulk of the money pumped into education in the last decade has been directed not into facilities or material, but teachers pockets, I would take any talk of cuts forcing subject withdrawl due to lack of money for facilities or material with significant skepticsm. TBH, it reads far more like blatant greed and another attempt to use the nation's children as a weapon; a tactic of which the ASTI are no strangers.

    Sir, you've hit the nail on the head beautifully.

    The teachers say cuts may see such subjects dropped? How about we "cut" their amount of time off, maybe they would have the time and resources available to teach said subjects with significantly more time spent in school?

    The ASTI disgust me, but their behaviour is certainly not surprising when you consider and calibre and ethos of the overwhelming majority of those working in our primary/secondary level education system and indeed those seeking to work in it.


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    #46
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    vamos! wrote: »
    Not coincidentally these are the subjects with the lowest take-up rates.

    Permabear, assuming the above is true, and adopting the logic that seems to run rampant through this forum, isn't the market speaking for itself? Students generally don't like physics, chemistry and languages because they are hard, and studying for them is boring. Yet you seem to be promoting these subjects because you think they may be in the national interest - is this then an area when you think some level of government encouragement - or even compulsion - is necessary in order to have some broader social benefit?


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    #47
    femur61
    Registered Users Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭femur61


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Teachers seem to be ignorant of the fact that they are some of the highest paid in Europe and that 80% of the education budget goes on wages. We need a Maggie Tathceher type politican to stand up to these self serving unions. My son is in junior cert and the amount of money we pay for grinds for him is staggering.


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    #48
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #49
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Point taken, question withdrawn.


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    #50
    Peanut
    Registered Users Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭Peanut


    I've generally looked on from a distance at the events of the past few years with a certain amount of detachment. However I can't help but feel exasperated by the ostrich-like mentality of the Irish 2nd level education system.

    Reports over the past few days suggest that a majority of schools are considering amalgamating or cutting subject choices due to cutbacks.

    No problem as such there - every state body faces cutbacks and education is no exception.
    But what, pray tell, in the middle of the most serious depression since the '20s, is in the firing line?

    How about,
    • Accounting
    • Chemistry
    • Physics
    • Economics

    May I offer a collective facepalm to the rest of the world as they look on in amusement.


    Meanwhile, we continue to have the vampire squid of compulsory Irish sucking up valuable resources and time.

    Now I realise that these are subjects with lower uptakes. However, these are also exactly the type of subjects we need to encourage in order to compete with the rest of the world, along with a modernised comp.sci programme.

    And yet, the same old arguments about "our culture" continue every time this subject is raised, on this site and elsewhere.

    I don't have any ill will towards the Irish language or traditional culture. In fact, I strongly believe that removing compulsion will help the language in the long term. But as it stands, the current state of affairs is really beginning to border on farcical.

    [MOD NOTE:

    Thread opened today in Irish Economy merged into existing thread on Politics front page]


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    #51
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    When I was in school in the late eighties/early nineties, the three second level schools in my town got around the issue of not being able to offer all subjects in each school by pooling the subjects. So the students from the convent and tech did Higher Maths and Physics in the CBS, students from the CBS and tech did Chemistry in the convent and Higher English was offered by all three with overflow from the CBS and convent sent to the tech.

    Now it worked logistically as all three schools were close so that might be an issue, and it was also a pain in the ass for the students who spent their day across three locations, but it meant there was a greater choice of subjects.


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    #52
    Dob74
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dob74


    Drop the subjects you need to succeed. Sums up our poor education system.

    Here's a lesson in economic's, how about close small schools, merge them and then you would have the critial mass to have a choice in subjects.

    Oh I forgot the dept of ed. is there to waste money not spend it in a cost effective manner.


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    #53
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,642 ✭✭✭eire4


    Peanut wrote: »
    I've generally looked on from a distance at the events of the past few years with a certain amount of detachment. However I can't help but feel exasperated by the ostrich-like mentality of the Irish 2nd level education system.

    Reports over the past few days suggest that a majority of schools are considering amalgamating or cutting subject choices due to cutbacks.

    No problem as such there - every state body faces cutbacks and education is no exception.
    But what, pray tell, in the middle of the most serious depression since the '20s, is in the firing line?


    How about,
    • Accounting
    • Chemistry
    • Physics
    • Economics
    May I offer a collective facepalm to the rest of the world as they look on in amusement.


    Meanwhile, we continue to have the vampire squid of compulsory Irish sucking up valuable resources and time.

    Now I realise that these are subjects with lower uptakes. However, these are also exactly the type of subjects we need to encourage in order to compete with the rest of the world, along with a modernised comp.sci programme.

    And yet, the same old arguments about "our culture" continue every time this subject is raised, on this site and elsewhere.

    I don't have any ill will towards the Irish language or traditional culture. In fact, I strongly believe that removing compulsion will help the language in the long term. But as it stands, the current state of affairs is really beginning to border on farcical.


    I understand cut backs are needed given the countries economic problems. But for me education should and needs to be one of the areas least affected. If we want a good future for our young education and a high quality education at that is key. None of the above subjects or Irish should be getting cut.


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    #54
    Spacedog
    Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭Spacedog


    Corrupt governments can't have a population widely intelligent in issues of scientific reasoning, economics or accountancy. They need an ignorant population to swallow their bulls**t


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    #55
    delta_bravo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,567 ✭✭✭delta_bravo


    Perhaps OP you should focus your anger on cutbacks in education rather than pitting subjects against each other.


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    #56
    Peanut
    Registered Users Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭Peanut


    delta_bravo wrote: »
    Perhaps OP you should focus your anger on cutbacks in education rather than pitting subjects against each other.

    The curriculum remains deeply flawed regardless of the cutbacks - the cutbacks simply highlight the urgent need for reform.


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    #57
    delta_bravo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,567 ✭✭✭delta_bravo


    Peanut wrote: »
    The curriculum remains deeply flawed regardless of the cutbacks - the cutbacks simply highlight the urgent need for reform.

    Which curriculum? Are you suggesting these subjects should be mandatory then?


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    #58
    GSF
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭GSF


    Irish & religion are the two untouchables of the Irish school curriculum.


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    #59
    Peanut
    Registered Users Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭Peanut


    delta_bravo wrote: »
    Which curriculum? Are you suggesting these subjects should be mandatory then?

    Not at all - simply that freeing up resources used for compulsory Irish would give breathing space to these (and other) subjects.

    (Don't forget that any compulsory subject will be significantly more costly in terms of resource consumption compared to optional subjects.)

    It's an argument towards getting priorities right.


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    #60
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Bubble collapsed five years ago, chemistry, physics and economics have shown no sign of any rebound. Not such a precise coincidence.
    While it's reasonable to look at students' natural inclinations to avoid subjects that are perceived as boring or difficult

    Here's a wild one, maybe a significant people pick certain courses of study because they're genuinely interested in that area? I did a Masters that improved my employment prospects and remuneration not one iota, and I have no regrets.
    The figures speak for themselves here.

    This has precisely nothing to do with the OP? Very few want to study economics, so schools are dropping it. The markets have spoken.

    Of course, maybe it might be a good thing for these subjects to be supported because this would be a rational course, even if student numbers are low, because of their importance?
    This will naturally lead to a renewed interest in subjects such as physics, chemistry, and maths at secondary level, implying that this is exactly the wrong time for schools to consider eliminating such options.

    You like assuming things, don't you? Again, we're five years in, most of the LC students now were in 1st year when the bubble burst. We should already have seen the effects.
    With regard to languages, Irish government policy is hopelessly warped by the long-standing nationalistic zeal for promoting Irish, a language that ... is not in demand at all in the private sector

    Which is the sole criterion for its being promoted ... in your world.
    If the government also refrained from using the educational system to pursue an antiquated nationalistic agenda, we'd see more young people studying foreign languages from an early age — but unfortunately the government would seemingly rather pander to the gaelgoir lobby than to the needs of multinational employers on that front.

    The height of your aspirations may be to exist as a multinational drone, but for some of us, a connection with our history, culture and language opens the door to a richer and more meaningful world. Nationalism, in the political sense, has nothing to do with it.


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    #61
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,147 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    The elephant in the room, that the government and the heads of the public sector spending are refusing to touch, is the cost of labour and that is what eats up most of the public sector budgets.

    How much again are Irish teachers paid in comparison to our neighbours ?

    Much like health where beds will be closed, necessary front line staff and contract staff will be sacrificed, so that the inefficient and unneeded staff can continue to get "their entitlements", we are going to have a situation where we have no cutbacks in teacher pay but needed teachers will not be replaced.


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