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Lack of new routes at Cork airport
Comments
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I think anybody in Limerick (or south of Limerick) would travel to Shannon Airport instead of Cork, due to the fact that the road between Limerick and Cork is abysmal and possibly dangerous.
I'm glad to hear that Knock Airport is restarting transatlantic flights- good on them!
Until Cork City and County Councils begin by improving the roads getting to Cork, then Cork Airport will find it hard to survive.
There have been so many efforts made in upgrading and improving the roads, infrastructure and public transport around the M50, and zilch has been done in Cork.
I wish the NRA and Cork County Council could take the drive through Buttevant to Charleville and then the dreaded Mallow road to Cork - it would bring tears to your eyes.....and to the suspension in your car!0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Cork has a very big population and is completely underselling itself. It should be a dominant force outside Dublin but there appears to be little interest in it for some reason from Cork people
If Cork county people alone took some pride in the airport they have on their doorsteps it would easily continue to be the 2nd biggest airport in the country.
I'm confused about how I (and all Cork people) showing interest/pride in the airport would matter in the slightest?
I do show an interest...I follow it on twitter :-)
I do take pride in the fact that it is a very easy pleasurable airport to travel from (coz it is so quite).
Surely economics matter more than interest and pride though.0 -
I'm confused about how I (and all Cork people) showing interest/pride in the airport would matter in the slightest?
I do show an interest...I follow it on twitter :-)
I do take pride in the fact that it is a very easy pleasurable airport to travel from (coz it is so quite).
Surely economics matter more than interest and pride though.
Of course it would matter. The average Cork man on the street doesn't seem to care about the airport and yet at the same time, we are getting mass protest about bloody water charges.
In the grand scheme of things, the airport is one of the most important pieces of infrastructure for the city, county and the south of Ireland yet here we are, protesting about an issue which will be railroaded through no matter what.0 -
AugustusMinimus wrote: »...yet at the same time, we are getting mass protest about bloody water charges.
What? Mass protests? 15 Shinners does not count as a mass protest.0 -
Priced some flights to Newcastle last night. €180 before bag charges or anything. Unbelievable.
Most I ever paid for a return with Jet2 was €80 and that was for Christmas.0 -
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Cork is being screwed by the lack of infrastructural development.
See here for article on a new, yes new Government agency which is only about developing Limerick and Shannon. Yes thats right the one semi state agency now control a lot of property in the Mid West and Shannon Airport so not only does Shannon Airport get away with over a €100 Million worth of debt it also gets to have a huge rent roll from all the commercial property around Shannon and Limerick, offer it for nothing to multi nationals and use the surplus to run the Airport charging the airlines a big ZERO for each passenger.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/half-of-shannon-group-properties-lie-empty-290725.html
Cork is being rightly screwed. Add in the annual subsidy to Kerry and Waterford Airports and effectively the Governments aviation policy seems to want screw Cork so we can never compete with Shannon Airport.
Add in everything else in relation to recent inward investments being told (and possibly big grants) to locate in Limerick, other moneys being thrown at Limerick Regeneration, the OPW being told to buy the Opera centre site in Limerick City and give it for free to Limerick Council, the decisions in relation to Munster Rugby (training academy and playing base), HQ of Munster GAA in Limerick, the huge funding from the European Investment Bank for UofL and Limerick 2030 strategy and you begin to see how absolutely useless our politicians are when it comes to standing up and fighting for infrastructural investment in Cork.
The politicians in Limerick just do a much better job of it and fair dues to them.
Cork is by far and away Irelands second city. Our Cork City population is greater than Limerick, Galway and Waterford combined and with the huge contribution we make to the taxman, our GDP and GVA per head of population and our employment and industry base being excellent we should be getting a lot more return from the investment we give to the taxman than we actually get.
Unfortunately our pathetic ability to deal with even a simple task of the extension to the city boundary so that the total population of the City can be reflected in the official statistics tells us everything we need to know about our politicians. I know a lengthy rant but it is going to hurt us in the near future. We have been lucky so far because of the Pharma industry and the IT industry.
What is the Government policy for the development of Ireland's second city?
Please stop lumping us in with all the other "regional" cities.0 -
Cork is being screwed by the lack of infrastructural development.
See here for article on a new, yes new Government agency which is only about developing Limerick and Shannon. Yes thats right the one semi state agency now control a lot of property in the Mid West and Shannon Airport so not only does Shannon Airport get away with over a €100 Million worth of debt it also gets to have a huge rent roll from all the commercial property around Shannon and Limerick, offer it for nothing to multi nationals and use the surplus to run the Airport charging the airlines a big ZERO for each passenger.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/half-of-shannon-group-properties-lie-empty-290725.html
Cork is being rightly screwed. Add in the annual subsidy to Kerry and Waterford Airports and effectively the Governments aviation policy seems to want screw Cork so we can never compete with Shannon Airport.
Add in everything else in relation to recent inward investments being told (and possibly big grants) to locate in Limerick, other moneys being thrown at Limerick Regeneration, the OPW being told to buy the Opera centre site in Limerick City and give it for free to Limerick Council, the decisions in relation to Munster Rugby (training academy and playing base), HQ of Munster GAA in Limerick, the huge funding from the European Investment Bank for UofL and Limerick 2030 strategy and you begin to see how absolutely useless our politicians are when it comes to standing up and fighting for infrastructural investment in Cork.
The politicians in Limerick just do a much better job of it and fair dues to them.
Cork is by far and away Irelands second city. Our Cork City population is greater than Limerick, Galway and Waterford combined and with the huge contribution we make to the taxman, our GDP and GVA per head of population and our employment and industry base being excellent we should be getting a lot more return from the investment we give to the taxman than we actually get.
Unfortunately our pathetic ability to deal with even a simple task of the extension to the city boundary so that the total population of the City can be reflected in the official statistics tells us everything we need to know about our politicians. I know a lengthy rant but it is going to hurt us in the near future. We have been lucky so far because of the Pharma industry and the IT industry.
What is the Government policy for the development of Ireland's second city?
Please stop lumping us in with all the other "regional" cities.
Here, here.
Cork is substantially larger than either Limerick, Galway or Waterford and should be prioritised complete differently than the other 3.
I simply cannot workout why Limerick is getting such investment. It cannot just be better politicians ?0 -
Are we ever going to see a commitment from the Government to a non-Dublin-centric transport infrastructure? The Cork - Limerick road is still fairly awful in parts. The train route between Cork and Limerick is a big dog-leg via Limerick Junction (I'm a Munster rugby fan, but often give the Limerick games a miss; the thought of a 2 hour train journey often with a wait freezing my ass off in Limerick Junction mid-winter). Some might argue the demand isn't there, but I say people don't make the journey as often because it's a painful journey. A Cork-Limerick motorway and/or direct rail-link would induce a lot more people to make the journey.
Then start looking at the sports stadia.. Dublin has Croke Park, Lansdowne Rd. and even the RDS (probably) which are better than any stadium here, Limerick has Thomond and the Gaelic Grounds. Even Thurles probably has a better stadium than Cork. The revamped PUC will rectify that greatly - assuming it happens - though many are questioning the need for it. :rolleyes:
What is it? Lack of effort from our representatives? Too many local objections to change?0 -
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Cork is being screwed by the lack of infrastructural development.....
What is the Government policy for the development of Ireland's second city?
Please stop lumping us in with all the other "regional" cities.
Some excellent points - there is a serious lack of investment in proper infrastructure development and urban planning in Cork. When you think about it as a the second city in a country the size of Ireland, there's no reason we shouldn't be on a par with similar European cities like Eindhoven, Bruges, Gothenburg, Porto, Liverpool, Geneva etc.
The airport i would say is functioning at 40% of it's potential if even that, which is a shame because if they did get new routes and actively started pushing Cork as a business and tourism destination then it would be of benefit to the entire southern region. We should have a proper corridor from Cork out to Waterford, Killarney and even up as far as Limerick.0 -
In terms of Private sector investment, Cork gets far more than Limerick but that is only to be expected given the significant population difference, economic output, etc.AugustusMinimus wrote: »Here, here.
Cork is substantially larger than either Limerick, Galway or Waterford and should be prioritised complete differently than the other 3.
I simply cannot workout why Limerick is getting such investment. It cannot just be better politicians ?
Where we suffer is the Public Investment. Limerick gets a lot of sympathy as a result of all the problems in the City over the last few years and with the Minister for Finance being a Limerick man he has done a lot in relation to public investment.
We need to sort out the City Boundary issue so that we can accurately reflect the economic and population statistical basis for attracting more public investment.0 -
Then start looking at the sports stadia.. Dublin has Croke Park, Lansdowne Rd. and even the RDS (probably) which are better than any stadium here, Limerick has Thomond and the Gaelic Grounds. Even Thurles probably has a better stadium than Cork. The revamped PUC will rectify that greatly - assuming it happens - though many are questioning the need for it. :rolleyes:
Cork isn't allowed nice things. Simple as that. Surprised that more in nay sayers aren't trying to block the development of the events centre and have it move to Limerick.0 -
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http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/half-of-shannon-group-properties-lie-empty-290725.html
I read the article in question.
andManaging director of commercial properties, Ray O’Driscoll, said that up to 57% of properties or around 230 buildings and lands were vacant. Many structures were built between the 1960s and 1980s, he told members of the Dáil’s Public Accounts Committee.
I would suspect that they might have a lot of property but its patently outdated and not suitable.The company said the Shannon properties were “the jewel in the crown,” but needed big investment. Some need to be knocked down and others needed to be developed, the committee heard.
So you want Waterford and Kerry airports closed to benefit Cork?Cork is being rightly screwed. Add in the annual subsidy to Kerry and Waterford Airports
effectively the Governments aviation policy page 23 of 49 gives a paragraph to Cork/Shannon combined.
Not looking good.0 -
Im surprised there isn't a flight to Frankfurt considering its a major European hub and connection centre.
Big problem for cork is there are feck all flights to bring tourist in directly. When you think of it a large proportion of the flights up are to take us to the usual sun spots and very little of them in tourist on the return flights. One worldwide tool people use when researching holidays is Tourradar. Of all the tours around Ireland only two start from Cork, they are hiking,cycling trips. So many organisations need to come together to fight the cause of airport against the government and DAA, not just the big mutlinationals like EMC, but the food boards, hotels, car hire companies, adventure centres,county councils from surrounding counties etc, 3rd level institutions (use empty college campus accommodation in the summer to promote summer language schools- expand whats already in use) or apartments that families could rent) im sure more could be added to that list.0 -
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lisasimpson wrote: »Im surprised there isn't a flight to Frankfurt considering its a major European hub and connection centre.
Big problem for cork is there are feck all flights to bring tourist in directly. When you think of it a large proportion of the flights up are to take us to the usual sun spots and very little of them in tourist on the return flights. One worldwide tool people use when researching holidays is Tourradar. Of all the tours around Ireland only two start from Cork, they are hiking,cycling trips. So many organisations need to come together to fight the cause of airport against the government and DAA, not just the big mutlinationals like EMC, but the food boards, hotels, car hire companies, adventure centres,county councils from surrounding counties etc, 3rd level institutions (use empty college campus accommodation in the summer to promote summer language schools- expand whats already in use) or apartments that families could rent) im sure more could be added to that list.
There are a number of problems, before you consider the marketing of Cork.- Ryanair will dump 1000s of free seats on a route to drive any competitor out. Completely anti competitive.
- 2. Utterly ineffectual CAA management...time watchers
- 3. Extraordinarily inept politicians of all parties, in Cork
Airport management fear and loathe Ryanair, and in some respects with just cause. No other big airline will chance coming into Cork while Ryanair are unstoppable in their anti-competitive practises.0 -
But the thing is, a lot of business passengers with the larger companies in Cork do not use Ryanair. They use the legacy airlines which connect them to other flights. Could we tap into that instead? That way there isn't a need to fear Ryanair as you are going after a different type of passenger. Maybe.0
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But the thing is, a lot of business passengers with the larger companies in Cork do not use Ryanair. They use the legacy airlines which connect them to other flights. Could we tap into that instead? That way there isn't a need to fear Ryanair as you are going after a different type of passenger. Maybe.
Look at what they've done though....Forced Easyjet out of Cork - Gatwick by putting on way more flights and loads of them were free or for half nothing. They did the same to Aer Arran on Cork - Dublin, and the same again to Wizzair to all those 5 Polish airports, not to even mention, nationally, trying to takeover Aer Lingus. I'm not saying Aer Lingus are saints in that regard (Avair and Jet Magic), but Ryanair are way bigger than most European Airlines and act like a bully without being touched by the EU.0 -
There are a number of problems, before you consider the marketing of Cork.
- Ryanair will dump 1000s of free seats on a route to drive any competitor out. Completely anti competitive.
- 2. Utterly ineffectual CAA management...time watchers
- 3. Extraordinarily inept politicians of all parties, in Cork
Airport management fear and loathe Ryanair, and in some respects with just cause. No other big airline will chance coming into Cork while Ryanair are unstoppable in their anti-competitive practises.
As long as Ryanair provide good routes at a good price,that'll be enough for me & most people. Never had an issue with them.0 -
As long as Ryanair provide good routes at a good price,that'll be enough for me & most people. Never had an issue with them.
You are missing the point, Ryanair don't provide new routes in Cork at all, they only copy routes that have been already served by other airlines and they slash their prices until they force the competition out, then they reduce, eliminate or transfer the route to shannon, they have done this on many eastern european routes and the Cork/Dublin route. The only airline to have held tough in Cork is Aer lingus, but they have forced many others out. We have lost many servers such as wizz air, easyjet, BA, bmi, jet2, etc, and each one was pushed out in the same manner. Now for the first time in living memory no scheduled foreign airline flies in or out of Cork airport0 -
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You are missing the point, Ryanair don't provide new routes in Cork at all, they only copy routes that have been already served by other airlines and they slash their prices until they force the competition out, then they reduce, eliminate or transfer the route to shannon, they have done this on many eastern european routes and the Cork/Dublin route. The only airline to have held tough in Cork is Aer lingus, but they have forced many others out. We have lost many servers such as wizz air, easyjet, BA, bmi, jet2, etc, and each one was pushed out in the same manner. Now for the first time in living memory no scheduled foreign airline flies in or out of Cork airport
Fair enough,but if ryanair actually kept these routes then that would be something.
On another note, once ryanair has left,couldn't some of these carriers come back again?0 -
Fair enough,but if ryanair actually kept these routes then that would be something.
On another note, once ryanair has left,couldn't some of these carriers come back again?
Because Ryanair will continue to repeat the exercise until the foreign airlines realise this will happen every single time they attempt new flights into Cork.
It is an anti-competitive practice and there should be some sort of law against it.0 -
AugustusMinimus wrote: »Because Ryanair will continue to repeat the exercise until the foreign airlines realise this will happen every single time they attempt new flights into Cork.
It is an anti-competitive practice and there should be some sort of law against it.
Yes, but the opposite is the case in law, Ryanair cannot currently be prevented from doing this as to do so would be deemed to be anti competitive.....crazy!!
Cork airport is in real trouble, Having its main competitor (Dublin Airport Authority) manage it is laughable, having inept politicians watch its continuous demise while subsidising other airports and air routes is a disgrace and allowing Ryanair to push every other carrier aside is madness, without some real meaningful intervention there is no hope of reviving this airports fortunes.0 -
without some real meaningful intervention
Could you elaborate as to what you would consider "real meaningful intervention".
I have followed this thread with interest.
There are social realities and economic realities.
Social realities accept that society will subsidize some of the more remote areas.
Economic realities are more obvious but rarely nice.
In aviation terms Donegal is in the first category, Kerry sort of makes it too.
Not just Cork.Cork airport is in real trouble,
Knock/Shannon/Cork/Waterford all in middle ground.
Too close to the center to be deemed as needing artificial support.
Any local politico attempting to artificially boost "their" airport will soon find themselves under investigation under the state aid rules.
The EU has redefined what it views as acceptable for state aid for airports and it uses a sliding scale for how much the taxpayer can donate.
There will be allowances where an airport is absolutely necessary for connectivity.
This is the one that Knock will be hanging their future on.
Ryanair is providing cheap connections to the airports it serves.
This subtle point is lost on most people.
If you are sharing the cost with 180 others then the average unit price is low.
If not then the price increases pro-rata.
Until a point is reached where it is not viable to provide a service at a price that people are willing to pay.
This is the situation that we now find ourselves in.
There will for the foreseeable future a service that the majority of the people want at a price they are willing to pay.
There is just not going to be a service to every desirable destination simply for the reasons outlined above.
Dublin is in a different league.0 -
notharrypotter wrote: »Could you elaborate as to what you would consider "real meaningful intervention".
I have followed this thread with interest.
There are social realities and economic realities.
Social realities accept that society will subsidize some of the more remote areas.
Economic realities are more obvious but rarely nice.
In aviation terms Donegal is in the first category, Kerry sort of makes it too.
Not just Cork.
Knock/Shannon/Cork/Waterford all in middle ground.
Too close to the center to be deemed as needing artificial support.
Any local politico attempting to artificially boost "their" airport will soon find themselves under investigation under the state aid rules.
The EU has redefined what it views as acceptable for state aid for airports and it uses a sliding scale for how much the taxpayer can donate.
There will be allowances where an airport is absolutely necessary for connectivity.
This is the one that Knock will be hanging their future on.
Ryanair is providing cheap connections to the airports it serves.
This subtle point is lost on most people.
If you are sharing the cost with 180 others then the average unit price is low.
If not then the price increases pro-rata.
Until a point is reached where it is not viable to provide a service at a price that people are willing to pay.
This is the situation that we now find ourselves in.
There will for the foreseeable future a service that the majority of the people want at a price they are willing to pay.
There is just not going to be a service to every desirable destination simply for the reasons outlined above.
Dublin is in a different league.
It's absurd to say that local politicians cannot lobby for their local Airport.
Real meaningful intervention would be to remove the Daa in every way from Cork Airport as they are direct competitors, The Daa insist on levying the same charges on Cork Airport as they do in Dublin and offer Airlines a fraction of the incentives Shannon offer to new Airlines (it costs every airline circa €28 per passenger landed in Cork or Dublin in Airport charges), we are the only second city in europe that charge the same as the Capital.
Shannon currently offer new route providers 5 years of zero charges, Daa offer one year in Cork and Dublin thereafter increasing yearly over the next few years.
Shannon is growing routes and passengers since independence while Cork is in decline, Shannon on gaining independence from Daa was relieved of it's €100 million of debt and gets an estimated €13 million in rent from Shannon Development properties. I believe Cork politicians should lobby for a similar deal.
The other intervention should be to review our anti competition laws to stop companies that blatantly squeeze others out by foul means, not just Airlines but large multinational retailers that practise similar techniques.0 -
They should lobby for the damn debt, which was promised to be written off, to be written off!0
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All we want is fair competition between all the Airports. The annual subventions to Kerry and Waterford Airports is unfair. We do not need 4 airports in Munster.notharrypotter wrote: »Could you elaborate as to what you would consider "real meaningful intervention".
I have followed this thread with interest.
There are social realities and economic realities.
Social realities accept that society will subsidize some of the more remote areas.
Economic realities are more obvious but rarely nice.
In aviation terms Donegal is in the first category, Kerry sort of makes it too.
Not just Cork.
Knock/Shannon/Cork/Waterford all in middle ground.
Too close to the center to be deemed as needing artificial support.
Any local politico attempting to artificially boost "their" airport will soon find themselves under investigation under the state aid rules.
The EU has redefined what it views as acceptable for state aid for airports and it uses a sliding scale for how much the taxpayer can donate.
There will be allowances where an airport is absolutely necessary for connectivity.
This is the one that Knock will be hanging their future on.
Ryanair is providing cheap connections to the airports it serves.
This subtle point is lost on most people.
If you are sharing the cost with 180 others then the average unit price is low.
If not then the price increases pro-rata.
Until a point is reached where it is not viable to provide a service at a price that people are willing to pay.
This is the situation that we now find ourselves in.
There will for the foreseeable future a service that the majority of the people want at a price they are willing to pay.
There is just not going to be a service to every desirable destination simply for the reasons outlined above.
Dublin is in a different league.
Shannon has had a semi state agency set up to support it with a significant rent roll from state property to support it as well as 100 million of debt wiped out so that Shannon can afford to tell Airlines move your flights from Cork to Shannon and we won't charge you anything. That is unfair state aided competition with Shannon being propped up at the expense of Cork.
I really don't understand what point you are trying to make or where you are coming from. I presume you want the airport to thrive in a fair competitive environment?0 -
Yes, but the opposite is the case in law, Ryanair cannot currently be prevented from doing this as to do so would be deemed to be anti competitive.....crazy!!
Cork airport is in real trouble, Having its main competitor (Dublin Airport Authority) manage it is laughable, having inept politicians watch its continuous demise while subsidising other airports and air routes is a disgrace and allowing Ryanair to push every other carrier aside is madness, without some real meaningful intervention there is no hope of reviving this airports fortunes.
1000% agree.
What needs to happen is for Cork politicians to create a continuous stink about it. Make complaints to the Irish Competition Authority, the European Competition Authority, the Dept of Transport, the media etc. I'm surprised that no Government politician has taken this on as a crusade - this directly affects Cork jobs. Fianna Fail have zero credibility on this, since the DAA/Aer Rianta has been a FF closed shop for 60 years. One would have thought that those working at Cork Airport would be up in arms over this, but many are minding their jobs, especially the CAA management.0 -
What is the annual subvention for Waterford/Kerry?The annual subventions to Kerry and Waterford Airports is unfair.
2013 consultation paper for a national Aviation Policy; page 6We do not need 4 airports in Munster.
You are thinking too small.Ireland has a relatively well developed airport infrastructure..... If we were to build our airports from scratch, we would not have as many and most of them would be located in a different place, connected to railway lines and motorways and more central to their catchment area.
Probably needing 4 in the country is a stretch.
Go to google maps/street view and actually look at many of the buildings in the industrial estate beside Shannon. Most are old and decrepit. I suspect that most of the rent roll for the foreseeable future will be spent trying to make them suitable for the modern era. "Pig in a poke" I think.Shannon has had a semi state agency set up to support it with a significant rent roll from state property to support it as well as 100 million of debt wiped out
I did some research last night on the "debt waiver" that was promised.
The problem seems that Cork was 220 million in a hole. This would have crippled the DAA at the time. So they wanted Cork Airport to assume some 100million, sharing the burden so to speak
In real terms Cork was coming out ahead of Shannon by getting 120million wiped off.
I think that you are missing the point that cork is currently being propped up by the DAA.That is unfair state aided competition with Shannon being propped up at the expense of Cork.
Irish Indo 3 JUNE 2014 andOne would have thought that those working at Cork Airport would be up in arms over this, but many are minding their jobs,
Irish Examiner 3 JUNE 2014
Ryanair operations are exactly the same as ALDI/LIDL/TESCO/DUNNES.Leo Varadker.
He added, however, that if Cork Airport secured its independence now, the airport "would immediately" be loss-making. Unlike Shannon Airport, Cork Airport's operating costs substantially exceed its revenues," he said.
If they want to build a store and bring lower prices people see this as a good thing.
Meanwhile a load of small shops close and people bemoan their loss and the jobs that have gone. However ultimately the consumer has benefited by the lower prices and greater range of "OWN BRAND" products supplementing the usual named brands.
In aviation terms the Ryanairs of this world will provide plenty of cheap seats to/from airports that they serve, "own brand" so to speak.
Overall consumers are benefiting.
This is the single market and competition at work.
There will always be elements that people do not like and they are free to choose what they want.
Kilmeaden hand cut cheddar 180g €2 [Aer Lingus to Heathrow]
Own brand cheddar block 200g €1.80. [Ryanair to Stansted]
Marys goats cheese with chives 150g €4. [Euromanx to Belfast]
Consumer choice!
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What are you on about, seriously?notharrypotter wrote: »What is the annual subvention for Waterford/Kerry?
2013 consultation paper for a national Aviation Policy; page 6
You are thinking too small.
Probably needing 4 in the country is a stretch.
Go to google maps/street view and actually look at many of the buildings in the industrial estate beside Shannon. Most are old and decrepit. I suspect that most of the rent roll for the foreseeable future will be spent trying to make them suitable for the modern era. "Pig in a poke" I think.
I did some research last night on the "debt waiver" that was promised.
The problem seems that Cork was 220 million in a hole. This would have crippled the DAA at the time. So they wanted Cork Airport to assume some 100million, sharing the burden so to speak
In real terms Cork was coming out ahead of Shannon by getting 120million wiped off.
I think that you are missing the point that cork is currently being propped up by the DAA.
Irish Indo 3 JUNE 2014 and
Irish Examiner 3 JUNE 2014
Ryanair operations are exactly the same as ALDI/LIDL/TESCO/DUNNES.
If they want to build a store and bring lower prices people see this as a good thing.
Meanwhile a load of small shops close and people bemoan their loss and the jobs that have gone. However ultimately the consumer has benefited by the lower prices and greater range of "OWN BRAND" products supplementing the usual named brands.
In aviation terms the Ryanairs of this world will provide plenty of cheap seats to/from airports that they serve, "own brand" so to speak.
Overall consumers are benefiting.
This is the single market and competition at work.
There will always be elements that people do not like and they are free to choose what they want.
Kilmeaden hand cut cheddar 180g €2 [Aer Lingus to Heathrow]
Own brand cheddar block 200g €1.80. [Ryanair to Stansted]
Marys goats cheese with chives 150g €4. [Euromanx to Belfast]
Consumer choice!
Cork Airport has not been allowed off with any debt, the key word in your own quote is the word "was". As for the DAA propping up Cork Airport, one of the reasons the DAA cannot in their opinion leave Cork on its own is because it would wipe out a significant "asset" on their accounts. So are you suggesting that the DAA should sell off Cork Airport? How about the DAA debt for T2 of around €1.6 bn.
You are really being disingenuous with you asking about Kerry and Waterford airports as you obviously know they recieve annual grants.
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2014-03-13a.796 and a further list here in relation to capital grants which is shocking;
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/knock-top-of-the-pack-for-regional-airport-grants-26277115.html
https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2014-06-18a.318
"Under the current contract, which ends in November, a total of almost €12 million will have been paid to Aer Arann-Stobart Air in respect of the Dublin to Kerry route"
And then you go on about Aldi and free and fair competition.
You really only seem to be interested in defending the indefensible and the great deal that Shannon Airport recieved.
The issue in relation to the property that Shannon Airport now effectively owns is that there is a considerable rent roll from these state owned properties. Whether some of them need investment or not is irrelevant these properties have been simply been handed over to the semi state agency in control of Shannon Airport. So the State lets them off with over €100 million in debt and Shannon also gets a significant rent roll from state property that has simply been handed over to them. It is shocking stuff IMO.
This is the issue for Cork Airport the massive amount of State support for Shannon, Kerry and Waterford airports which means the undermining of Cork Airport by state policy. This is the issue.
Let us compete on the exact same basis in a free and open competitive environment with the other airports in our region.0 -
It should be noted Cork Airport makes an operating profit each year.
It is the interest payments on the terminal and depreciation costs which mean they post a loss overall.0 -
I am well aware of the support's that they receive.You are really being disingenuous with you asking about Kerry and Waterford airports as you obviously know they recieve annual grants
My query related to a comment from "rebs23" post 208 and post229 which inferred that the support should be withdrawn from Waterford/Kerry and redirected to Cork.
I was querying as to how much real difference this would make to Cork's operation.
From Waterford forum 2013 passenger numbers in Waterford are roughly 30,000. Most of which would wind up using Dublin if Waterford closed.
Regarding Kerry it will have a strong claim to continued funding in the short term due to the alleged peripheral nature of the county.
From the dail quote
This will be shared by Knock/Kerry/Waterford/Sligo/Donegal so its not a whole lot.It is expected that a limited budget of some €12 million per annum will be available for current and capital expenditure under the regional airports programme from 2015 onwards.
Again quoting from rebs23 post 232
Only problem is that Kerry only benefits indirectly from this.Under the current contract, which ends in November, a total of almost €12 million will have been paid to Aer Arann-Stobart Air in respect of the Dublin to Kerry route"
The major benefit would accrue to Stobart Air and the DAA for 2 reasons.
1 Stobart will get the lions share of the money and 2 the DAA will get the passengers.
My point related to the fact that on average more people benefit while in some respects choice is actually being reduced.And then you go on about Aldi and free and fair competition.
Not quite you want a write off of 220 million and to take the asset free gratis.Let us compete on the exact same basis in a free and open competitive environment with the other airports in our region.It should be noted Cork Airport makes an operating profit each year.
It is the interest payments on the terminal and depreciation costs which mean they post a loss overall.
That's exactly what Leo Varadker said.
From what I can see is that people wanted the "asset" free and the debt left with the DAA.one of the reasons the DAA cannot in their opinion leave Cork on its own is because it would wipe out a significant "asset" on their accounts
Problem with this strategy was the value of what was left would not support the debt pile
and further expansion at Dublin.debt for T2 of around €1.6 bn.
Hence the DAA wanted some sharing of the load.
However this is drifting off thread slightly.
To drag things back on topic.
Do I believe that there will be new routes in Cork?
Yes.
When will they be launched.
No idea but I would suspect 2016 as a more realistic time frame.
My belief is simply as the economy recovers so too will Aviation.
Do I believe there will be a lot of new destinations?
No.
Do I believe that Cork/Shannon/Knock/Kerry/Waterford/Sligo/Donegal airports will all expand significantly?
No.
Main task for the afore mentioned group is to hold what they have and build on that.
Core business for Cork/Shannon/Knock/Kerry will be sun routes and UK.
Anything else would be most likely seasonal.
BTW the indo link is for 2007 before the crash. Look for the "value for money" report which was done subsequent to that.
Significant cuts were imposed to the plan.0 -
Can't figure out where you are coming from as you still are sidestepping the massive unfair competitive advantage that has been handed to Shannon from the state and having four airports in the one province is simply unsustainable. Cork Airport should be allowed compete on a fair basis. it remains a fact that Kerry airport receives a subsidy to keep it viable and Waterford received a capital grant last year for a runway extension.
As for Cork Airport being for sun routes in the future that is simply insulting.0 -
Not quiet I just don't think its all its cracked up to be.Can't figure out where you are coming from as you still are sidestepping the massive unfair competitive advantage that has been handed to Shannon from the state
However you are disregarding the 220 million hand out Cork is getting from the DAA.
Having 4 airports on the island is not sustainable, see my comment in post 231.having four airports in the one province is simply unsustainable
I am well aware of those facts.it remains a fact that Kerry airport receives a subsidy to keep it viable and Waterford received a capital grant last year for a runway extension.
As I said closing Waterford will make marginal savings to the exchequer and almost zero difference to Cork.
Most passengers will simply go to Dublin.
That been said the SAR helicopter is based in Waterford so no danger of it closing any time soon.
Also Kerry is better positioned long term to use the peripheral card.
Why? Do you not like going away on holidays?As for Cork Airport being for sun routes in the future that is simply insulting
My actual comment is.Core business for Cork/Shannon/Knock/Kerry will be sun routes and UK.
Anything else would be most likely seasonal.0 -
What 220 million handout are you talking about? That is seriously disingenuous to claim that! It simply has not occurred.
Still again what is your point? Most people on this thread are making the strong point about theunfair competition facing Cork airport from the massive handout of free property and a debt write off worth over 100 million handed out to Shannon. We are also making the point about the annual subsidy to Kerry and Waterford Airports.
You seem to agree in your last post but only disagree on the scale of the support.
Therefore surely you would agree with our points that Cork Airports development and our ability to get new flights is being hindered by Shannon Airport able to offer zero passenger charges due to this debt write off while Cork has to charge 9 euro roughly per passenger.
A lot of the new flights from Shannon were originally routes out of Cork airport. I mean seriously state property simply being handed over to the operators of Shannon Airport and here while we're at it we'll wipe out your debt.
You seem to have a strong vested interest in this issue?0 -
That comment says it all about you and whatever point you are trying to make. Sure us culchies down the country only use airports for going on holidays. :mad:notharrypotter wrote: »
Why? Do you not like going away on holidays?is.0 -
That comment says it all about you and whatever point you are trying to make. Sure us culchies down the country only use airports for going on holidays. :mad:
You appear to be misunderstanding my post.
My point is that for the airports outside Dublin the core market will be sun holidays and UK.
Wishful thinking is not going to change this.
Get your core market right and you have a solid base.
Everything else then is a bonus.
Any airport that doesn't charge for its facilities is going bust quickly.Shannon Airport able to offer zero passenger charges
Can anyone actually post a link to what each airport actually charges?while Cork has to charge 9 euro roughly per passenger.
You are quoting €9 while other say €28. Post 226 refers.
From PPRUNE Cork forum 5113 and 5115 would appear to indicate that Cork's charges may be different to Dublin.
The official DAA charges are here.
All airports (Cork included) offer incentivised charges for new business.
This is usually on a sliding scale over 3 to 5 years.
DAA incentivised scheme 2014-2016.
Cork version is here.A lot of the new flights from Shannon were originally routes out of Cork airport
Stick around a year or so and Ryanair will move them to Kerry or Knock.
The cost of the new terminal and stuff in Cork which is currently being carried on the DAA balance sheet.What 220 million handout are you talking about?
I see both sides getting a bung here.the unfair competition facing
You are getting hand out from the DAA.We are also making the point about the annual subsidy to Kerry and Waterford Airports.
The natives in Kerry and Waterford would both feel aggrieved at an arm of the state supporting their competition.
They would see the support from the government as facilitating necessary connectivity to they periphery of the island.
The point I made was that both of those airports would have a strong public claim to need support.
No I don't.surely you would agree with our points that Cork Airports development and our ability to get new flights is being hindered by Shannon Airport able to offer zero passenger charges due to this debt write off while Cork has to charge 9 euro roughly per passenger.
The country is too small. Outside of Dublin there simply isn't the demand.
My belief remains, based on the draft Aviation Policy proposal, that Cork/Shannon and Knock/Kerry will only grow marginally over the coming years.
But yet this exactly what you want for Cork.I mean seriously state property simply being handed over to the operators of Shannon Airport and here while we're at it we'll wipe out your debt.
Nope I am not a jackeen but I am in a lucky position that when I can go on holidays I have a choice of airports.You seem to have a strong vested interest in this issue?
If one or more went I would be sad for the jobs that would be lost but that's it.
I do notice that people get very possessive of "their" airport.0 -
notharrypotter wrote: »Not quite you want a write off of 220 million and to take the asset free gratis.
But wasn't it the DAA who built that terminal? If Cork were independent from the start I doubt they would have spent such a ludicrous amount of money when an airport like HAHN would have worked perfectly and would have been much cheaper. The DAA seem very keen on spending money on massive terminals (1.6bn on Dublin) so perhaps it should be the CAA running Dublin instead of the other way around :cool:
(BTW - I think they're all incompetent, for the record)0 -
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notharrypotter wrote: »
The cost of the new terminal and stuff in Cork which is currently being carried on the DAA balance sheet.
I see both sides getting a bung here.
You are getting hand out from the DAA.
You're embarrassing yourself, you haven't a clue.
The deal was, that the DAA (the former Aer Rianta) would take on the debt of the new Cork terminal, in return for them keeping all of the Great Southern hotels. Instead, the DAA did the dirt by flogging the GSH for €250m, and then reneging on the Cork Airport agreement, letting the €210m debt on the Cork balance sheet. Bertie wouldn't do anything for Cork Airport because he was only concerned with Dublin, and Dublin Airport was the Fianna Fail plaything.
The DAA held all the aces, as the Cork Airport Authority only came into existence when the new terminal was handed over. They handed out all the gold plated contracts out to their buddies when the airport was being built, fitted out and tenanted. And then walked away.0 -
You're embarrassing yourself, you haven't a clue.
The deal was, that the DAA (the former Aer Rianta) would take on the debt of the new Cork terminal, in return for them keeping all of the Great Southern hotels. Instead, the DAA did the dirt by flogging the GSH for €250m, and then reneging on the Cork Airport agreement, letting the €210m debt on the Cork balance sheet. Bertie wouldn't do anything for Cork Airport because he was only concerned with Dublin, and Dublin Airport was the Fianna Fail plaything.
That's my understanding too. The DAA took the assets, CAA kept the debt. It should have been one way or the other. I'm still intrigued as to why the CAA voted to accept the debt.
Even apart from that issue - though it's a big one - the notion of one airport being run by a competitor is completely unsound. How did Shannon go independent? Is that a practical alternative for Cork airport?0 -
That's my understanding too. The DAA took the assets, CAA kept the debt. It should have been one way or the other. I'm still intrigued as to why the CAA voted to accept the debt.
Even apart from that issue - though it's a big one - the notion of one airport being run by a competitor is completely unsound. How did Shannon go independent? Is that a practical alternative for Cork airport?
The taking on of the €113m debt was railroaded through by Michael Martin (YES - him !) in his role as Minister for Enterprise. The CAA board were Mehole appointees, including his long time backer/supporter Humphrey Murphy and his "boy" on the board, Chairman Joe Gantly.The four worker-directors, Tom O’Neill, Tony O’Connell, Mary O’Halloran and Sean Mac Suibhne, joined by Alf Smiddy, voted against acceptance.
Cork Airport chief executive Pat Keohane, Don Cullinane, Humphrey Murphy, Pat Dalton, and Loretta Glucksman, in contact by phone from America, all voted in favour. Veronica Perdissatt abstained.
The tie resulted in chairman, Joe Gantly, casting the deciding vote to accept.
Enterprise Minister Micheál Martin welcomed the outcome and said he is confident the airport would remain competitive.
“My main priority is to move away from the Dublin operation and set up on our own — people would prefer less debt at the end of the day but it’s a State company and people seem to have missed that point,” he said.
Siptu official John Pearson described the vote as a “purely political act”.
“We were promised in 2003 that we would be debt-free. We bought in to that in good faith.”
This is a slightly flowery explanation
http://www.southernstar.ie/News/FFs-crocodile-tears-over-Cork-Airport-Authority-10072014.htm0 -
Even apart from that issue - though it's a big one - the notion of one airport being run by a competitor is completely unsound. How did Shannon go independent? Is that a practical alternative for Cork airport?
To reply to that bit, quite simply, the politicians in the Mid West have a track record of banging on the table until they get want they want. Cork, on the other hand, have been weighed down by a bunch of cretins, which in turn stops at the door of Cork people for putting up with them. We NEED to get active and demand they earn their money.0 -
Cork - Brussels route is now going to be reinstated from next March.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cork-brussels-route-to-resume-in-2015-291765.html0 -
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Rhys Essien wrote: »Cork - Brussels route is now going to be reinstated from next March.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cork-brussels-route-to-resume-in-2015-291765.html
That's just lazy journalism, They have made this a summer only route and suspended it for the winter, as originally announced.0 -
They did but It was Aer Arann won that cork/dublin battle and also Jet2 weren't forced out,they just gave up the route an EI Regional took it over
That's just not true. Ryanair were still on the route when Aer Arann pulled out. Ryanair did their usual trick then of reducing the service they provided, until they pulled out altogether in 2011.
The same for Jet Magic, Aer Lingus came onto routes that Jet Magic had built up, and undercut them.Jetmagic had five high load factor routes – Nice, Barcelona, Alicante, Nantes and Milan. Aer Lingus decided to go after three of them (BCN, MXP and ALC) last September, less than six months after the airline commenced operations. Prior to that Aer Lingus were in “pull out” mode at Cork airport. Along comes JM and suspiciously, all of a sudden, EI want to set-up direct routes to three JM destinations from Cork.0 -
Cork airport does not seem to have any new routes or rising passenger numbers any time soon, its like a less intense repeat of Shannon.
Ryanair said that they are not adding any routes to cork for 2015, but what they didn't mention is that they are removing the year round East Midlands and Vilnius routes and the summer seasonal Bordeaux, Carcassonne, Alicante and Girona routes.
But soothing news may be that the Aer Lingus - Brussles route will continue next summer.0 -
The number of Ryanair passengers travelling through Cork Airport will fall by 6% this year, they released their passenger figures for the summer period from April to September and said the decision last year to scrap the travel tax has allowed them to carry an extra 648,000 passengers through Irish airports over the six-month period, however these increases are through Dublin, Shannon and Knock airports. Ryanair has reduced passenger numbers through Cork and Kerry.
While increasing routes through Dublin and Shannon they have cut services from Cork saying the charges here are too high.
Cork Airport is still controlled by the Dublin Airport Authority while Shannon has been made independent and debt free, Ryanair has already switched some of its flights from Cork to Shannon to avail of much cheaper charges. In the last month their Cork to Lithuania flight was moved to Shannon.
Ryanair will carry 50,000 less passengers through Cork this year based on last year’s figures and it appears from recent announcements that Aer Lingus figures will also be falling through Cork0 -
The number of Ryanair passengers travelling through Cork Airport will fall by 6% this year, they released their passenger figures for the summer period from April to September and said the decision last year to scrap the travel tax has allowed them to carry an extra 648,000 passengers through Irish airports over the six-month period, however these increases are through Dublin, Shannon and Knock airports. Ryanair has reduced passenger numbers through Cork and Kerry.
While increasing routes through Dublin and Shannon they have cut services from Cork saying the charges here are too high.
Cork Airport is still controlled by the Dublin Airport Authority while Shannon has been made independent and debt free, Ryanair has already switched some of its flights from Cork to Shannon to avail of much cheaper charges. In the last month their Cork to Lithuania flight was moved to Shannon.
Ryanair will carry 50,000 less passengers through Cork this year based on last year’s figures and it appears from recent announcements that Aer Lingus figures will also be falling through Cork
We always used Wizzair when they were in Cork to fly to Lithuania, even though we had to pay more, just to try to support the service, because everyone knew this type of extortion was coming with Ryanair.
There's zero chance we are going to use Shannon to fly to Lithuania.
By the time you consider parking, it's cheaper and less hassle to fly Cork to London and fly on from there.
Would anyone in Cork actually fly from Shannon?
Why not just keep the flight in Cork and charge us more per ticket to compensate for Cork's higher fees?
If they want to strike at the DAA, this the wrong way to go about it. They are just hurting their 'would-be' customers.0 -
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