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Gone stale

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  • 25-06-2015 8:10pm
    #1
    hathcock
    Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭


    This forum seems to be gone a little stale vis a vis dogs,so at the risk of incurring the wrath of of the devil,here goes my question, how long should one expect a springer that hunts cover to last at work in a typical day?I've heard it claimed that some dogs can keep hunting (in heavy cover)all day,it's not that I don't believe these claims,but never having witnessed same I'm yet to be convinced.Please be civil in your response.


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    #2
    Dawggone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,506 ✭✭✭Dawggone


    hathcock wrote: »
    This forum seems to be gone a little stale vis a vis dogs,so at the risk of incurring the wrath of of the devil,here goes my question, how long should one expect a springer that hunts cover to last at work in a typical day?I've heard it claimed that some dogs can keep hunting (in heavy cover)all day,it's not that I don't believe these claims,but never having witnessed same I'm yet to be convinced.Please be civil in your response.

    I had one springer in forty years of shooting that could hunt heavy cover all day long. Dawn till dusk. Had to feed him a half kilo of suet per day to keep him from turning into a skeleton...
    I've given up on ESS now as there is no more than two hours hunting in them.


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    #3
    dazed+confused
    Registered Users Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭dazed+confused


    I had a springer that would hunt all day, say 8 hours of rough shooting or 5 drives on a driven shoot. He was 25kg though, rare you see a springer of that build now. Any spring I see now is a much lighter build than the dog we had and they definitely seem to tire quicker.


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    #4
    Dawggone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,506 ✭✭✭Dawggone


    dazed+confused wrote: »
    I had a springer that would hunt all day, say 8 hours of rough shooting or 5 drives on a driven shoot. He was 25kg though, rare you see a springer of that build now. Any spring I see now is a much lighter build than the dog we had and they definitely seem to tire quicker.

    Agreed on size. My good dog was a monster. As big as a setter with paws like a lion.


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    #5
    Tommyaya4
    Registered Users Posts: 231 ✭✭Tommyaya4


    uncles 6 year old bitch will hunt all day 6 hours plus she is very small but has always had some engine in her.she dont look all busy all the time but she has some nose on her and if she hits a ditch then expect a bird. have never seen her miss a retrieve i think she hunts smart if that makes any sence
    Tommy


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    #6
    Dawggone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,506 ✭✭✭Dawggone


    Tommyaya4 wrote: »
    uncles 6 year old bitch will hunt all day 6 hours plus she is very small but has always had some engine in her.she dont look all busy all the time but she has some nose on her and if she hits a ditch then expect a bird. have never seen her miss a retrieve i think she hunts smart if that makes any sence
    Tommy

    Doesn't stay in cover all the time?
    To me, a springer should have to be commanded to leave cover.


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    #7
    snipe49
    Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭snipe49


    hathcock wrote: »
    This forum seems to be gone a little stale vis a vis dogs,so at the risk of incurring the wrath of of the devil,here goes my question, how long should one expect a springer that hunts cover to last at work in a typical day?I've heard it claimed that some dogs can keep hunting (in heavy cover)all day,it's not that I don't believe these claims,but never having witnessed same I'm yet to be convinced.Please be civil in your response.

    I was thinking the same thing lads are looking at post's but for some reason not giving there view on it. ?


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    #8
    snipe49
    Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭snipe49


    Dawggone wrote: »
    Doesn't stay in cover all the time?
    To me, a springer should have to be commanded to leave cover.
    Have u springers doing this':eek: staying in cover until Commanded to come out. ?


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    #9
    deeksofdoom
    Registered Users Posts: 2,022 ✭✭✭deeksofdoom


    I have a springer bitch that will hunt hard all day long, heavy cover the lot.


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    #10
    Dawggone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,506 ✭✭✭Dawggone


    snipe49 wrote: »
    Have u springers doing this':eek: staying in cover until Commanded to come out. ?

    To me...if a springer isn't doing what it's bred for, then it's not fit for purpose.

    Cavalier King spaniels are supposedly hunting dogs also...:)

    I don't have these lines anymore. Too much shyte out there that handlers make excuses for..

    I've a line of setters now that do what springers are supposed to do.
    I truly lament the demise of the ESS.


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    #11
    Dawggone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,506 ✭✭✭Dawggone


    deeksofdoom wrote: »
    I have a springer bitch that will hunt hard all day long, heavy cover the lot.

    Lucky man.
    What's the pedigree?


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    #12
    deeksofdoom
    Registered Users Posts: 2,022 ✭✭✭deeksofdoom


    No papers, does have badgercourt looks very stylish bitch she's hitting 8 this year. Picture was taken a few years ago, thats me with the melted head.

    31122010879-1.jpg


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    #13
    Dawggone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,506 ✭✭✭Dawggone


    snipe49 wrote: »
    Have u springers doing this':eek: staying in cover until Commanded to come out. ?

    If a springer NOT doing cover for fun, why waste your time with muck??


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    #14
    snipe49
    Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭snipe49


    Dawggone wrote: »
    To me...if a springer isn't doing what it's bred for, then it's not fit for purpose.

    Cavalier King spaniels are supposedly hunting dogs also...:)

    I don't have these lines anymore. Too much shyte out there that handlers make excuses for..

    I've a line of setters now that do what springers are supposed to do.
    I truly lament the demise of the ESS.
    I agree the Future of the real springer is in grave danger' but if lads give up on trying to breed back some of true springer blood into what we have now' then they will just become the dog of fireside stories...


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    #15
    Dawggone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,506 ✭✭✭Dawggone


    snipe49 wrote: »
    I agree the Future of the real springer is in grave danger' but if lads give up on trying to breed back some of true springer blood into what we have now' then they will just become the dog of fireside stories...

    For me the ESS is phucked with the last 20 years. End of.
    The trials Phucked them...
    They are beyond redemption.


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    #16
    snipe49
    Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭snipe49


    Dawggone wrote: »
    For me the ESS is phucked with the last 20 years. End of.
    The trials Phucked them...
    They are beyond redemption.
    I do agree that Trialing has made the springer the way it is. But there are still some fine unspoiled dogs out there and if lads only breed from a good line of springers then there is still hope.


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    #17
    Dawggone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,506 ✭✭✭Dawggone


    snipe49 wrote: »
    I do agree that Trialing has made the springer the way it is. But there are still some fine unspoiled dogs out there and if lads only breed from a good line of springers then there is still hope.

    Yes, of course there may be some residuals. Genetics will ensure that its possible.
    However if the majority of the supposed 'best' genetics of the breed are akin to Cavalier King Charles, then I would argue that the breed is well and truly phucked.


    I now have setters that will kick shyte out of the 'best' ESS lines.


    Why bother?


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    #18
    snipe49
    Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭snipe49


    Dawggone wrote: »
    Yes, of course there may be some residuals. Genetics will ensure that its possible.
    However if the majority of the supposed 'best' genetics of the breed are akin to Cavalier King Charles, then I would argue that the breed is well and truly phucked.


    I now have setters that will kick shyte out of the 'best' ESS lines.


    Why bother?

    Are they English or Irish ?


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    #19
    Dawggone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,506 ✭✭✭Dawggone


    snipe49 wrote: »
    Are they English or Irish ?

    Danish, American, Norwegian.

    Have been known to win an Irish Championship...


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    #20
    snipe49
    Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭snipe49


    Dawggone wrote: »
    Danish, American, Norwegian.

    Have been known to win an Irish Championship...

    What breed are they ?


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    #21
    Dawggone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,506 ✭✭✭Dawggone


    snipe49 wrote: »
    What breed are they ?

    English setters.


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    #22
    snipe49
    Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭snipe49


    Dawggone wrote: »
    English setters.

    Have u any footage of them in the heavy stuff . I'm sure you know it has been said they were crossed into out early old style springers it's there to be seen today in the trialing dogs ?


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    #23
    Dawggone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,506 ✭✭✭Dawggone


    snipe49 wrote: »
    Have u any footage of them in the heavy stuff . I'm sure you know it has been said they were crossed into out early old style springers it's there to be seen today in the trialing dogs ?

    Steady on there Snipe!

    It's absolutely nothing to do with springers.
    It's to do with drive...desire...ambition...

    If you are lucky enough to own a dog with 'insane' drive to find birds...then you will realise that cover is not even "seen" by such animals...


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    #24
    snipe49
    Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭snipe49


    Dawggone wrote: »
    Steady on there Snipe!

    It's absolutely nothing to do with springers.
    It's to do with drive...desire...ambition...

    If you are lucky enough to own a dog with 'insane' drive to find birds...then you will realise that cover is not even "seen" by such animals...
    Well have u any video of your setters in the heavy cover your making very strong claims there ?


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    #25
    hathcock
    Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭hathcock


    deeksofdoom wrote: »
    No papers, does have badgercourt looks very stylish bitch she's hitting 8 this year. Picture was taken a few years ago, thats me with the melted head.

    31122010879-1.jpg

    Must be hard to shoot straight with a crooked head like that.....


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    #26
    Kiltris
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭Kiltris


    Dawggone wrote: »
    Lucky man.
    What's the pedigree?

    This isn't a dig or anything, but I think this is what happened to springers. People became obsessed with lines, pedigrees & papers.

    I have 3 springers here, no papers, I never had a dog with papers but I know the breeding of these dogs, we (me, father & uncles) have kept these lines for years. I have one big strong bitch that is probably the best we've ever had, she hunts all day, any cover, never fails. I've put her up against dogs that lads have paid €1200 for & she puts them to shame.

    I will get tired a lot sooner than she will, and she will be bouncing again the day after to do the same. The dog is a machine, duck, pheasant, woodcock, snipe.. She knows her job. I bred her to my springer dog, he's a nut job in cover, but he gets busted up, she comes out unmarked.
    I kept back one pup for myself, absolutely cracking pup, sold 3 to local lads & advertised the rest, I said on the add that I would show anyone the dog and bitch working but I couldn't shift them, I watched pups with "papers" being sold left, right & centre & I ended up training these and sending them to wales. Their now working drug dogs.

    My point is these 'all day' dogs are out there but some are simply just not interested because of lines, pedigrees & papers.

    Thats just my two cents.


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    #27
    snipe49
    Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭snipe49


    Kiltris wrote: »
    This isn't a dig or anything, but I think this is what happened to springers. People became obsessed with lines, pedigrees & papers.

    I have 3 springers here, no papers, I never had a dog with papers but I know the breeding of these dogs, we (me, father & uncles) have kept these lines for years. I have one big strong bitch that is probably the best we've ever had, she hunts all day, any cover, never fails. I've put her up against dogs that lads have paid €1200 for & she puts them to shame.

    I will get tired a lot sooner than she will, and she will be bouncing again the day after to do the same. The dog is a machine, duck, pheasant, woodcock, snipe.. She knows her job. I bred her to my springer dog, he's a nut job in cover, but he gets busted up, she comes out unmarked.
    I kept back one pup for myself, absolutely cracking pup, sold 3 to local lads & advertised the rest, I said on the add that I would show anyone the dog and bitch working but I couldn't shift them, I watched pups with "papers" being sold left, right & centre & I ended up training these and sending them to wales. Their now working drug dogs.

    My point is these 'all day' dogs are out there but some are simply just not interested because of lines, pedigrees & papers.

    Thats just my two cents.

    Very well put ...


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    #28
    allan450
    Registered Users Posts: 616 ✭✭✭allan450


    snipe49 wrote: »
    Very well put ...

    Their is far to much to consider on this subject.The dogs diet first and foremost.How thick is the cover certain parts of the country compared to others.what I call cover and what an other man calls cover can be the total opposite.if you hunt a dog for a the likes of 6/7 hours a day after 2/3 week's they lose the flashy style and then plod.while still doing the job it's not nice to watch.4/5 hours is enough or rotate at heel each dogs at that time so their bursting to get going.Their are some serious dogs out their if lads know where to look.The amount of **** the dog world seems to attract is serious so take everything with a pinch of salt until you see it yourself or learn the hard way......


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    #29
    Kiltris
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭Kiltris


    allan450 wrote: »
    Their is far to much to consider on this subject.The dogs diet first and foremost.How thick is the cover certain parts of the country compared to others.what I call cover and what an other man calls cover can be the total opposite.if you hunt a dog for a the likes of 6/7 hours a day after 2/3 week's they lose the flashy style and then plod.while still doing the job it's not nice to watch.4/5 hours is enough or rotate at heel each dogs at that time so their bursting to get going.Their are some serious dogs out their if lads know where to look.The amount of **** the dog world seems to attract is serious so take everything with a pinch of salt until you see it yourself or learn the hard way......

    I agree 100%. I know lads that lock dogs up from the end of one season til the start of the next and then spend the first month of the season moaning and giving out like sh*te to the dog because they are simply too unfit to keep hunting, the same lads that buy clear bags of "dog food" in the local petrol station for €9 and expect it to deliver enough energy to an unfit dog to keep it hunting all day, but it's all the dogs fault, never the owner.

    Some guys expectations for the effort they put into their dogs are completely unrealistic. It's never as simple or straight forward as some make it out to be. The other side of the coin is that a guy opens up Donedeal and looks at a pup with a recognisable name in his breeding, a name he heard someone talk about before, shor this pup has to turn out good, even though that name is 3 generations back, €300 well spent!! No viewing of either sire or dam working cover but he has a "cracking looking pup" now. Spends his first season frustrated and pissed off at the dog because the dog wouldn't hunt a mouse out of a bag, when it's actually himself & the breeder he should be pissed off with. In my opinion it's the whole buying process that is messed up.

    I have only ever bred to get a pup for myself, never for financial gain, anything I'd ask for a pup would be small and I wouldn't move pups on til they are around 16wks old, so I can make an educated decision about each pups confidence, energy levels etc. But everyone is different!


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    #30
    ESB Spaniel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 268 ✭✭ESB Spaniel


    My own bitch Oddie will hunt all day long never had to go home over her been tired.... Now I can't say she will do it for defo this season after the pups but she seems to be the same bitch she was. When she is in heat she can test my patience but will hunt away.

    To me its down to keeping them conditioned in the summer also. No point locking a Springer up all summer(taking her/him for a walk to the park), swimming, a bit of cover and most of all what drives her on during the summer is rabbits. I know my bitch is not happy being in the pin and going up the road on a lead. Just my 2 cents.

    I know lads that expect springers to run cover all day long the 1st of November and the Springer wouldnt be doing nothing from Feb - Nov.... And the dog is branded useless or a 4 hour dog. It's a lot to do with what way you have been conditioning them from a pup and of course their diet in my opinion.


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    #31
    ferrete
    Registered Users Posts: 509 ✭✭✭ferrete


    Kiltris wrote: »
    This isn't a dig or anything, but I think this is what happened to springers. People became obsessed with lines, pedigrees & papers.

    I have 3 springers here, no papers, I never had a dog with papers but I know the breeding of these dogs, we (me, father & uncles) have kept these lines for years. I have one big strong bitch that is probably the best we've ever had, she hunts all day, any cover, never fails. I've put her up against dogs that lads have paid €1200 for & she puts them to shame.

    I will get tired a lot sooner than she will, and she will be bouncing again the day after to do the same. The dog is a machine, duck, pheasant, woodcock, snipe.. She knows her job. I bred her to my springer dog, he's a nut job in cover, but he gets busted up, she comes out unmarked.
    I kept back one pup for myself, absolutely cracking pup, sold 3 to local lads & advertised the rest, I said on the add that I would show anyone the dog and bitch working but I couldn't shift them, I watched pups with "papers" being sold left, right & centre & I ended up training these and sending them to wales. Their now working drug dogs.

    My point is these 'all day' dogs are out there but some are simply just not interested because of lines, pedigrees & papers.

    Thats just my two cents.

    To be honest I think your exaggerating a bit as I have a springer from field trail lines an it unreal, dose goose duck phesant woodcock etc nd retrieves foxes also, its just about what your dog's used to and how fit it is, mine usually lasts 5 hours but it depends on the cover it's hunting.
    before you day anything I have compared it to other springers and 90% of them I would even consider


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