Entreprise Mess today [6 June 2013]

Jamie2k9 · 06-06-2013 10:36pm #1

Just after reading some tweets from rui that 16.50 Connolly to Belfast failed in Connolly, 207 if I'm correct saw it being moved for repairs, didn't get a clear view. 18.05 Belfast-Connolly went on fire while 19.00 to Belfast was terminated en route with all remaining services on bus transfers.

Anyone more details about the fire, guessing loco providing HEP didn't help.

Jamie2k9 · 06-06-2013 11:27pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-22805136

Investigation into fire on Belfast to Dublin train

The train pulled into a disused station while fire crews tackled the blaze

An investigation is under way after a fire broke out on a train outside Newry, County Down.

One hundred and fourteen passengers were on board the Belfast to Dublin train when the fire occurred in the engine compartment.

The driver pulled up at Gorawood, a disused station several miles north of Newry, shortly after 19:00 BST.

Carriages were moved away from the train while the fire was brought under control. No one was injured.

Group commander Eddie Carroll said fire crews had difficulty getting into the engine area.

"The initial crews, on arrival, were confronted with a well developed fire," he said.

"Thanks to the prompt actions of the crews, we've now brought the fire under control."

Transport Minister Danny Kennedy said there would be a full investigation.

"I want to pay particular tribute to the driver of the engine, the crew on the engine and all of the emergency services who have attended," he said.

"I'm relieved that all of the passengers are safe."

Translink said there could be some delays on the line.

Captain Chaos · 06-06-2013 11:57pm

Wow, another 201 fire on the Enterprise. 206 was nearly a write off after it's fire. Add to that 208 and 231 both failed in the last week and the EGVs have not been in use since around February. It's back to the bad old days again it seems with the HEP issue. It seemed to be under control with regular loco swaps for a few years but not so any more.

LoonyLovegood · 07-06-2013 12:01am

What happened to the EGV vans?

Jamie2k9 · 07-06-2013 12:01am

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Wow, another 201 fire on the Enterprise. 206 was nearly a write off after it's fire. Add to that 208 and 231 both failed in the last week and the EGVs have not been in use since around February. It's back to the bad old days again it seems with the HEP issue. It seemed to be under control with regular loco swaps for a few years but not so any more.

208 failed today, EGV's are supposed to be back this month.

230 will be another 209 if its lucky to see passenger service again.

Captain Chaos · 07-06-2013 12:12am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

208 failed today, EGV's are supposed to be back this month.

230 will be another 209 if its lucky to see passenger service again.

At this rate they are going to run out of 201s with TPWS and working HEP. They only got 233 back recently and 228 seems to be out of action somewhere.

Rud · 07-06-2013 12:13am

Why havn't the EGVs been on the Enterprise full time to ease off the pressure on the 201s?

Captain Chaos · 07-06-2013 12:17am

Rud wrote: »

Isn't 230 not long back in action?

Why havn't the EGVs been on the Enterprise full time to ease off the pressure on the 201s?

233 is back about a month now after it failed at Clongriffin last September. 230 has been fine and was working IWT liners up until last week and moved back on to the DD sets.

There are still issues with the EGVs, don't know what they are exactly. I think the 3 DD sets had an EGV each at the same time for about a few weeks before they were withdrawn one by one again.

Rud · 07-06-2013 12:49am

Captain Chaos wrote: »

233 is back about a month now after it failed at Clongriffin last September. 230 has been fine and was working IWT liners up until last week and moved back on to the DD sets.

There are still issues with the EGVs, don't know what they are exactly. I think the 3 DD sets had an EGV each at the same time for about a few weeks before they were withdrawn one by one again.

Yes,sorry i mixed up 230 with 233

Hopefully they will have the EGVs back running soon

Jamie2k9 · 07-06-2013 3:16am

Captain Chaos wrote: »

At this rate they are going to run out of 201s with TPWS and working HEP. They only got 233 back recently and 228 seems to be out of action somewhere.

Does TPWS matter anymore, 29000 are allowed to Belfast so I can't see a 201's being a problem.

comradestalin · 07-06-2013 9:13am

Did someone mention elsewhere that the EGVs were withdrawn after cracks in the frames were discovered ?

Captain Chaos · 07-06-2013 9:28am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Does TPWS matter anymore, 29000 are allowed to Belfast so I can't see a 201's being a problem.

If it didn't matter then they would not have bothered fitting it to 227,228 and 231 and only TPWS 201s work the Enterprise and no others since it came into force. The 29ks seem to have a special arrangement so long as their is a second crew member in the cab at all times for some reason and that was before the latter 3 201s got TPWS. I'm sure IE would love to put any 201 they wanted on the Enterprise sets to make life easier like they used to.

When the NIR C3Ks cover for the Enterprise only CAF sets 3001-6 can work south as they are the only ones fitted with CAWS and IE don't make any arrangement for the rest of the class or the C4Ks even though they are exactly the same length and shape so no need for clearance trails.

kingshankly · 07-06-2013 9:43am

The 16:50 loco failed because of a burst pipe leaking air.
As for the loco on the 18:05 it's in some state fire crews cut panels to get to the fire

Captain Chaos · 07-06-2013 9:58am

kingshankly wrote: »

As for the loco on the 18:05 it's in some state fire crews cut panels to get to the fire

Well at least now IE have a use for those 10 201s sitting in Inchicore. They can use their body panels to put 230 back together, that's depending on what the internal damage is like.

At least a burst air pipe is easy to fix, I was on a DART on day that suffered that problem, the brakes jammed on in fail safe mode and we were stranded for about 30mins but the fitters got it sorted track side.

8 Enterprise 201s, 2 out of action long term (209 HEP, 230 fire damage)
6 active with 3 needed every day plus regular swaps required until the EGVs are back and a spare rescue 201 at each end of the line. Things are going to be interesting indeed.

bikeman1 · 07-06-2013 11:15am

The problem the EGVs is the body work was cracked. The railway safety commission sanctioned that they could not operate in their current state without undergoing structural repairs.

Currently one van is in Inchicore with the rest at York Road. That is why they all literally disappeared overnight. 209 whose HEP is broken has been virtually solid on the Cork line since.

Now in relation to the locos and IE / NIR operations. The enterprise fleet of 201s as mentioned above has both TPWS / NIR Radio and CAWS. When TPWS was introduced there was a period were non TPWS fitted trains worker north. Then a ruling came in and it was restricted to TPWS only except in an emergency.

Now in that situation a second man must travel to observe the signals and AFAIK there is a speed restriction on that train. A 29000 working north does so under such a situation. A planned violation of the rule is not allowed, such as an 071 on a railtour. Often a 29 will be replaced by a C3k when it gets to Belfast and it will return south empty.

The solution for IE / NIR is to fit out more 201s with TPWS to allow a greater pool of locos to be used. However that is easier said than done with the financial situation of NIR and IE not the best at the moment.

Jamie2k9 · 07-06-2013 11:22am

bikeman1 wrote: »

The problem the EGVs is the body work was cracked. The railway safety commission sanctioned that they could not operate in their current state without undergoing structural repairs.

Currently one van is in Inchicore with the rest at York Road. That is why they all literally disappeared overnight. 209 whose HEP is broken has been virtually solid on the Cork line since.

Now in relation to the locos and IE / NIR operations. The enterprise fleet of 201s as mentioned above has both TPWS / NIR Radio and CAWS. When TPWS was introduced there was a period were non TPWS fitted trains worker north. Then a ruling came in and it was restricted to TPWS only except in an emergency.

Now in that situation a second man must travel to observe the signals and AFAIK there is a speed restriction on that train. A 29000 working north does so under such a situation. A planned violation of the rule is not allowed, such as an 071 on a railtour. Often a 29 will be replaced by a C3k when it gets to Belfast and it will return south empty.

The solution for IE / NIR is to fit out more 201s with TPWS to allow a greater pool of locos to be used. However that is easier said than done with the financial situation of NIR and IE not the best at the moment.

The best solution is to stop wrecking the 201's and get the EGV's sorted out, these cracks are they fixable or are they going to use other EGV's around?

Captain Chaos · 07-06-2013 12:28pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The best solution is to stop wrecking the 201's and get the EGV's sorted out, these cracks are they fixable or are they going to use other EGV's around?

I believe the 4 EGVs they picked to be converted were the ones in the best condition at the time. At this stage I don't think the other stored EGVs are useful for anything more than scrap.

If the EGVs can't be sorted the only other solution is to fit TPWS to all remaining 201s and spread the load over the fleet. Failing that fit TPWS to the surplus ICR sets, get them trial cleared to York Road and let them take over. Then send the DD stock on a long refurb mid life upgrade and look further into custom EGV stock for them. All of this is big money. It's sort of like pick what weapon you want to be killed with at this stage.

goingnowhere · 07-06-2013 12:29pm

The cover story last month was push pull faults when the DVT was leading with a gen van present.

Nice to see the truth...

bikeman1 · 07-06-2013 12:43pm

There has been so much money thrown at the EGV solution and it is still not working properly. The 201s can do the job, they have done so for the last 16 years and counting. A very small pool of locos have been thrashed on a very demanding line with demanding stock and some very long diagrams.

Don't forget all the problems on the Enterprise are not loco related. There was a period of problems with the brakes on some of the stock. Door problems etc.

I also believe the fuel consumption was higher with the EGVs than without.

Finally it is my understanding that the lads in Inchicore who worked on the vans have finished their career as carriage maintenance and this was their last job. So any new work will have to be done by contrators, which will cost more money.

Its all in the hands of 206, 207, 208, 227, 228, 231 and 233.

Captain Chaos · 07-06-2013 12:52pm

bikeman1 wrote: »

The 201s can do the job, they have done so for the last 16 years and counting. A very small pool of locos have been thrashed on a very demanding line with demanding stock and some very long diagrams.
.

But it hasn't been a small pool of locos all along, it was all push pull 201s being used up until TPWS came in.

10 years ago it was rare to see an Enterprise livery loco actually hauling the Enterprise. IE seemed to have their favoured 201s on it. 223,224 and 227 were a regular trio for a while.

The 201s cannot do the job, GM even told IE this at the time or ordering the locos.

shamwari · 07-06-2013 2:35pm

bikeman1 wrote: »

The solution for IE / NIR is to fit out more 201s with TPWS to allow a greater pool of locos to be used. However that is easier said than done with the financial situation of NIR and IE not the best at the moment.

Not all 201's are fitted with HEP, so retro-fitting every 201 with TPWS would make no difference!

If the EGV vans can be resurrected then that might give some relief. Failing that, it might be a case of fitting some 22K's with TPWS and clearing these up run to Belfast.

I'm open to correction on this but I think any set without TPWS can work in an emergency with a pilot

n0brain3r · 07-06-2013 2:42pm

shamwari wrote: »

Not all 201's are fitted with HEP, so retro-fitting every 201 with TPWS would make no difference!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IE_201_Class

Wikipedia suggests different but I'm sure one of the guys here will clear it up.

shamwari wrote: »

I'm open to correction on this but I think any set without TPWS can work in an emergency with a pilot

I don't know if its on this thread or another but it's certainly been suggested recently that is permissible in an emergency.

Captain Chaos · 07-06-2013 2:49pm

shamwari wrote: »

Not all 201's are fitted with HEP, so retro-fitting every 201 with TPWS would make no difference!

I'm open to correction on this but I think any set without TPWS can work in an emergency with a pilot

Every 201 currently in service has HEP except 209 and 234, their HEP units are damaged from Enterprise usage. Every 201 still active today has worked the Enterprise in the past.

They can only run with a second crew man in an emergency for TPWS but it's not premited if it's pre planned in advance. Has to be spur of moment type of thing.

shamwari · 07-06-2013 2:51pm

trust me, not all 201's are HEP enabled. The ones put into "warm storage" a while back certainly aren't

Captain Chaos · 07-06-2013 2:57pm

shamwari wrote: »

trust me, not all 201's are HEP enabled. The ones put into "warm storage" a while back certainly aren't

That's why I said all the ones in service.

And at least one of the 201s in storage has functioning HEP. Loco 210 was used in static HEP testing on Mk3s in Inchicore with a plan to removing the EGVs from service but the testing didn't go too far. All 201s have HEP, the question is weather it's commissioned and functioning in each loco.

I think 229's HEP is out too after it derailed due to a landslide on the Cork mainline a few years back.

flyingsnail · 07-06-2013 4:02pm

It has not been a good week for them

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-22815239

Dunmurry train fire: Second blaze within hours

A fire has broken out on a train at Dunmurry on the outskirts of Belfast.

A Fire and Rescue Services spokeswoman said what "appeared to be a small fire in a carriage," was reported shortly before 11:00 BST.

It is the second fire on a train within hours. An investigation is under way after a fire broke out on a train outside Newry, County Down.

One hundred and fourteen people were on the Belfast to Dublin Enterprise train when the fire broke out on Thursday.

Losty Dublin · 07-06-2013 4:25pm

shamwari wrote: »

trust me, not all 201's are HEP enabled. The ones put into "warm storage" a while back certainly aren't

This is correct, only some members of the class were enabled.

Captain Chaos wrote:

The 201s cannot do the job, GM even told IE this at the time or ordering the locos.

Out trots this Old Wife's Tale.

Think about this for just a minute. EMD, the long time market leader in loco building, supposedly supply a locomotive to a long standing customer which they know isn't fit for purpose, in spite of the fact that the loco design is sold with HEP as an option.

Jamie2k9 · 07-06-2013 4:30pm

There has been so much money thrown at the EGV solution and it is still not working properly. The 201s can do the job, they have done so for the last 16 years and counting. A very small pool of locos have been thrashed on a very demanding line with demanding stock and some very long diagrams.

201's can't do the job at all, if they could then why are they breakdowns at least once of twice a week. The EVG's cost money but how much have all 201's repairs cost over the last 16 years. How many 201's have had to be rebuild sooner that expected because of HEP in use.

A solution needs to be found as there are no signs of replacement trains and 201's can't keep providing HEP for the next 10-15 years, at current rates 201's will not be able to keep HEP up as many are going to keep failing and going on fire because of it.

As for the RSC stopping the EGV's in service, which is better having EGV's with cracks in service or engines going on fire. IE should of being allowed to keep the EGV's on and repair them one by one.

bikeman1 · 07-06-2013 4:54pm

Ideally a new train should be brought in for the Enterprise. However everything has to be split 50:50 with NIR as is the current set up, so there has to be full agreement put in place with the two railways and relevant department of transport. It is incredibly difficult to get something set up to run cross border.

For example NIR require a guard to travel on every train movement!

Back to the poor old 201s. I have been monitoring the Beller for about 13 years now, I am not sure where you get your stats that there has been one or two loco failures a week. Is that confirmed or just on hearsay?

There are a good few but not as high as that. Yes not ideal, but sadly that's what were stuck with unless something changes with NIR who are not being given a penny more for new trains at the moment.

bikeman1 · 07-06-2013 5:00pm

206 looking and sounding great working the 16:50 Dublin to Belfast this evening ;-)

Captain Chaos · 07-06-2013 5:31pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

This is correct, only some members of the class were enabled.

Out trots this Old Wife's Tale.

Think about this for just a minute. EMD, the long time market leader in loco building, supposedly supply a locomotive to a long standing customer which they know isn't fit for purpose, in spite of the fact that the loco design is sold with HEP as an option.

206-210 and 215-234 have all had their HEP commissioned and actually used at one point or another.

EMD do supply HEP as an option yes, and it works just fine in American locos that use a different electrical system then the one IE use which cause problems due to it's design. If it were built with todays technology there would be no issues.

If there was no issue with the 201s providing HEP why did IE and NIR spend all that time and money converting and testing the Mk3 EGVs. The 201s are not fit for purpose providing HEP with IE's electrical system.

Entreprise Mess today [6 June 2013]

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