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Angelus

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    #92
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,150 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    galljga1 wrote: »
    What's with "two men kissing". It's part of life. Is someone objecting to it being shown?
    Absolan's point is that the ringing of the Angelus bell is also "part of life", and objecting to its being broadcast on the grounds that it "promotes Catholicism" makes about as much sense as objecting to the broadcast of gay kissing on the grounds that it "promotes homosexuality".


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    #93
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    robdonn wrote: »
    I do not object to the existence of religious programming, only when that religious programming gives almost exclusive preference to a single religion.

    The more I think about this and religion in general, the less of a sh1t I give. I still cannot fathom belief in religion and it used to annoy the sh!t out of me particularly as I was forced to endure it long after I ceased to believe. To each their own. Live long and prosper, let the bells ring.
    I am a bit of a turncoat, I know but I am on hols at the moment and feeling a bit more tolerant than normal.


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    #94
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    galljga1 wrote: »
    We will have to agree to differ on this one. Personally, imho, it cannot be seen as anything other than a programme that promotes the catholic religion. I would safely say that the vast majority of persons in this country seeing the RTE programme 'the angelus' automatically think of the catholic church (maybe a few think of christianity, maybe a few think of prayer or possibly nothing). It is simply a free advert, advertising works.
    I would suggest that only the ones already sufficiently familiar with christianity/catholicism would make the connection at all; those unfamiliar would have no idea what it is. Even those who know what it is are given no reason to consider the religion in a positive light, all they get is 18 tolls of a bell. Not likely to encourage a lot of lost sheep back into the flock with such a cunning argument I imagine.

    Personally, I'd fire any ad agency who told me they were only going to speak to consumers who were already very familiar with my product, but they weren't going to recommend it, or even mention it's name, only allude to it's existence in non committal terms. Some advertising really doesn't work that well.


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    #95
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Absolan's point is that the ringing of the Angelus bell is also "part of life", and objecting to its being broadcast on the grounds that it "promotes Catholicism" makes about as much sense as objecting to the broadcast of gay kissing on the grounds that it "promotes homosexuality".

    And it is a strawman as nobody is saying that it shouldn't be there on the grounds of religious promotion alone, but that by only having a Christian call to prayer is disproportionate promotion. So either have a call to prayer for each religion represented in Irish demographics, or don't have one at all.


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    #96
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    Absolam wrote: »
    I would suggest that only the ones already sufficiently familiar with christianity/catholicism would make the connection at all; those unfamiliar would have no idea what it is. Even those who know what it is are given no reason to consider the religion in a positive light, all they get is 18 tolls of a bell. Not likely to encourage a lot of lost sheep back into the flock with such a cunning argument I imagine.

    Personally, I'd fire any ad agency who told me they were only going to speak to consumers who were already very familiar with my product, but they weren't going to recommend it, or even mention it's name, only allude to it's existence in non committal terms. Some advertising really doesn't work that well.

    Yeah, I had that argument in my head before I posted. Maybe not a great campaign if it was introduced at the moment but anything that has lasted for 65 years shouldn't be sneezed at. I still see it as a free advert even if all it does is enforce consumer behaviour for an existing client base. I am not into marketing but I would hazard a guess that a large proportion of the advertising budget of major brands is spent on retaining existing customers.


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    #97
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    robdonn wrote: »
    That's a lovely strawman that you've built there, but irrelevant to the discussion.
    You're the one offering reasons for objecting; I quite specifically said I'm not offering any rationale for why someone might object to either thing. If you're not comfortable with it, try substituting 'miming', or 'planting a three field crop rotation system' instead of 'two men kissing'.


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    #98
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Absolam wrote: »
    You're the one offering reasons for objecting; I quite specifically said I'm not offering any rationale for why someone might object to either thing. If you're not comfortable with it, try substituting 'miming', or 'planting a three field crop rotation system' instead of 'two men kissing'.

    I am offering reasons for objecting to something not being shown, not for it being shown. (Terrible sounding sentence, I apologise.)

    So, as I have said before, I will fully support the broadcasting of the Angelus if call to prayers of other religions are also broadcast equally. If RTE do not do this, and can give no valid reason for doing so beyond "tradition", then I will object to the whole thing.


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    #99
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,150 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    galljga1 wrote: »
    Yeah, I had that argument in my head before I posted. Maybe not a great campaign if it was introduced at the moment but anything that has lasted for 65 years shouldn't be sneezed at. I still see it as a free advert even if all it does is enforce consumer behaviour for an existing client base. I am not into marketing but I would hazard a guess that a large proportion of the advertising budget of major brands is spent on retaining existing customers.
    But on that basis every documentary or current affairs broadcast depicting any event, practice etc is a "promotion" of that event or practice. That's not a serious argument against the broadcasts of events or practices.


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    #100
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    But on that basis every documentary or current affairs broadcast depicting any event, practice etc is a "promotion" of that event or practice. That's not a serious argument against the broadcasts of events or practices.

    Would documentaries and current affairs programming not fall under educational? I don't even know what category the Angelus falls under, but it certainly isn't that.


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    #101
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,150 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    robdonn wrote: »
    Would documentaries and current affairs programming not fall under educational? I don't even know what category the Angelus falls under, but it certainly isn't that.
    It falls under "religious", but I don't see the relevance of the categorisation. If you want to take the view that broadcasting an event or practice = promoting that event or practice well, you're entitled to your opinion. But if that's an objection to the broadcast, then that pretty much knocks documentary and current affairs broadcasting on the head. Which is not a position I can take very seriously.


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    #102
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,524 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Absolan's point is that the ringing of the Angelus bell is also "part of life", and objecting to its being broadcast on the grounds that it "promotes Catholicism" makes about as much sense as objecting to the broadcast of gay kissing on the grounds that it "promotes homosexuality".
    if RTE broadcast one minute of two men kissing every evening at six, people would be legitimately worried that they were deliberately promoting gaiety.

    this is the thing; i've no objection to RTE broadcasting sunday mass (which probably has a genuine public service element to it, for people who cannot physically get to mass), or that gay byrne show or other religious shows; that's standard programming decisions to make, and caters for a catholic audience which form a large part of RTE's customer base.

    but there is a qualitative - and quantitative - difference when it's considered a default position that they should have a religious broadcast, named for a prayer overwhelmingly associated with one religion, at an early primetime slot.

    like i said, i don't care all that much about the issue, so at this point, i'm kinda just debating this as i'm bored looking at progress bars.

    i'd like to see it gone. but that's about as passionate as i can get about it.


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    #103
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    It falls under "religious", but I don't see the relevance of the categorisation. If you want to take the view that broadcasting an event or practice = promoting that event or practice well, you're entitled to your opinion. But if that's an objection to the broadcast, then that pretty much knocks documentary and current affairs broadcasting on the head. Which is not a position I can take very seriously.

    But that is not the objection. Broadcasting an event or practise, religious or not, every day without informative and/or educational content and without offering any alternative or opposing information or practises on an equal scale is biased promotion of the event or practise.


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    #104
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    galljga1 wrote: »
    Maybe not a great campaign if it was introduced at the moment but anything that has lasted for 65 years shouldn't be sneezed at.
    I think I would look askance at any ad agency that proposed running the same ad for 65 years and expecting a result simply from its constant presence, to be honest.
    galljga1 wrote: »
    I still see it as a free advert even if all it does is enforce consumer behaviour for an existing client base.
    It does take a certain amount of mental self trickery to see it that way though, doesn't it? You can't consider that the Catholic Church isn't in any way involved with deciding on whether it is broadcast for instance, or that it doesn't endorse them in any way, or that it has no apparent return, or that the broadcaster doesn't treat it is an advert, because if you did, it would be rather difficult to see it as a free advert....
    galljga1 wrote: »
    I am not into marketing but I would hazard a guess that a large proportion of the advertising budget of major brands is spent on retaining existing customers.
    Leaving aside the obvious fact that the Angelus doesn't meet even basic criteria for being considered an advertisement for a moment, can you think of three television adverts that extol continuing to use an unchanged, unnamed, and undepicted product exclusively to existing customers?


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    #105
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    robdonn wrote: »
    So, as I have said before, I will fully support the broadcasting of the Angelus if call to prayers of other religions are also broadcast equally. If RTE do not do this, and can give no valid reason for doing so beyond "tradition", then I will object to the whole thing.
    Well, RTEs reason for broadcasting the Angelus at the moment is already more than 'tradition' (an argument I don't find particularly compelling myself).
    It broadcasts the Angelus, as Peregrinus has said, as Religious Programming; which is a part of it's obligation to provide content that reflects Ireland’s cultural diversity. It probably continues to broadcast it because, according to it's own press releases, the Angelus is it's most watched religious programme.

    Certainly, I'd agree that if a Muslim (or any other religious) call to prayer could garner an equal (even proportionately) audience, RTE would have good reason to broadcast it as well. I'd be less inclined to say that every religious call to prayer, or even every religion, should get equal air time. I can't see any reason to give Samaritans any air time at all for instance; they don't constitute a part of Irelands cultural diversity, and frankly I doubt they'd care to have it.


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    #106
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Absolam wrote: »
    Well, RTEs reason for broadcasting the Angelus at the moment is already more than 'tradition' (an argument I don't find particularly compelling myself).
    It broadcasts the Angelus, as Peregrinus has said, as Religious Programming; which is a part of it's obligation to provide content that reflects Ireland’s cultural diversity. It probably continues to broadcast it because, according to it's own press releases, the Angelus is it's most watched religious programme.

    It could definitely be argued that it is the most watched religious programme because of it's time slot, but I think that has been debated to death in another thread so I won't press it.
    Absolam wrote: »
    Certainly, I'd agree that if a Muslim (or any other religious) call to prayer could garner an equal (even proportionately) audience, RTE would have good reason to broadcast it as well. I'd be less inclined to say that every religious call to prayer, or even every religion, should get equal air time. I can't see any reason to give Samaritans any air time at all for instance; they don't constitute a part of Irelands cultural diversity, and frankly I doubt they'd care to have it.

    Yeah, I'd pretty much agree with that, or at least to a point that I find nothing really worth arguing about. No idea how RTE would define the cut off though as to how large a religion needs to be represented demographically to be given airtime, but I do believe that many groups are significant enough.


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    #107
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,150 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    robdonn wrote: »
    Yeah, I'd pretty much agree with that, or at least to a point that I find nothing really worth arguing about. No idea how RTE would define the cut off though as to how large a religion needs to be represented demographically to be given airtime, but I do believe that many groups are significant enough.
    Well, as already pointed out, Muslims in Ireland don't actually practise a call to prayer, so there is nothing Islamic to broadcast that's closely analagous to the angelus.

    And this raises the point the diversity in religious broadcasting (or anything else) is not the same thing as rigorously identical treatment for all. If you were actually to ask Irish Muslims what they felt about their coverage in RTE's religious broadcasting and, if they wanted more coverage, what it should be, it's unlikely that the answer would be "something like the angelus, only more Islamic". Treating Muslims or other minority religions as though they were just a slightly different kind of Catholic would not really be diversity; more the opposite; trying to shoehorn them into an essentially Catholic concept of what a belief-community looks like and how it should be represented.

    RTE's religious broadcasting coverage should reflect Muslim and other minority religious perspectives in Ireland. For that matter, it should reflect atheist, humanist, etc perspectives. (To be clear, I'm not saying that atheism, etc, is a religion; I'm saying that atheist perspectives on religious questions ought to be covered.) But this doesn't mean we have to broadcast a "Muslim angelus", a "Jewish angelus", a "secularist angelus", etc; that would be just silly. Coverage of these communities should reflect the realities of the communities and their practices perspectives. And the reality for the most part doesn't include anything like the angelus.

    Are these communities adequately covered in RTE's religious broadcasting? Well, that's probably a separate discussion, and my guess is that it doesn't lend itself to a one-word answer (either way). But I don't see that broadcasting the angelus, in itself, prevents or impedes good coverage of non-Catholic communities and perspectives. In the context of this thread, whether Muslims receive adequate coverage is probably a bit of a red herring.


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    #108
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    It's interesting for someone to suggest the Angelus bell is part of life,

    You know what else was part of life for decades and seen as perfectly normal in Ireland... Teachers beating the ****e out of children, women having to give up jobs after marriage, condoms being illegal, being gay being illegal, marriage not being equal, husbands being able to rape their wife and the wife could do nothing, school sacking a women for being pregnant outside of marriage, sticking single mothers in homes, selling the single mothers baby's for profit....sure those unclean women deserved it.

    All seen as just the norm during the times they took place or atleast normal and moral for the guardians of morality that are followers of the Catholic faith in Ireland...

    The angelus is yet another backwards thing that represents a backwards religion and time in Ireland, it doesn't have a place being funded by the tax payer.

    When it's eventually gone off RTE people will look back and wounder why some backwards people wanted to keep it,


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    #109
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Cabaal wrote: »
    It's interesting for someone to suggest the Angelus bell is part of life,

    You know what else was part of life for decades and seen as perfectly normal in Ireland... Teachers beating the ****e out of children, women having to give up jobs after marriage, condoms being illegal, being gay being illegal, marriage not being equal, husbands being able to rape their wife and the wife could do nothing, school sacking a women for being pregnant outside of marriage, sticking single mothers in homes, selling the single mothers baby's for profit....sure those unclean women deserved it.

    All seen as just the norm during the times they took place or atleast normal and moral for the guardians of morality that are followers of the Catholic faith in Ireland...

    The angelus is yet another backwards thing that represents a backwards religion and time in Ireland, it doesn't have a place being funded by the tax payer.

    When it's eventually gone off RTE people will look back and wounder why some backwards people wanted to keep it,


    Whataboutery. The Angelus harms no one. Its a dirt cheap programme to make aswell. Your tax money is being wasted far more elsewhere.


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    #110
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,110 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    It is an expression of the continued power and influence and moral corruption of the RCC in this State and that most certainly IS harmful.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #111
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Cabaal wrote: »
    It's interesting for someone to suggest the Angelus bell is part of life, You know what else was part of life for decades and seen as perfectly normal in Ireland... Teachers beating the ****e out of children, women having to give up jobs after marriage, condoms being illegal, being gay being illegal, marriage not being equal, husbands being able to rape their wife and the wife could do nothing, school sacking a women for being pregnant outside of marriage, sticking single mothers in homes, selling the single mothers baby's for profit....sure those unclean women deserved it.
    You know, none of those seem like reasons to not let people watch the Angelus?


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    #112
    brightspark
    Registered Users Posts: 2,637 ✭✭✭brightspark


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    It is an expression of the continued power and influence and moral corruption of the RCC in this State and that most certainly IS harmful.


    Despite the harm that has been done to many by the RCC, many people still have their beliefs and get comfort from them (not sure if you have ever spoken to someone who has just had a bereavement, but I certainly wouldn't recommend telling them there is no afterlife, even though you may not believe in it).

    I can't understand why so many atheists are so evangelical about trying to destroy others beliefs, perhaps they are like the first kid in school to realise that Santa Claus isn't real and then want to tell everyone else, ignoring how it may make some of the other kids unhappy.

    Yes the RCC has power and influence, but so does any large organisation with a lot of followers e.g. the GAA, Finnia Fail etc. and it's true that it has in the past abused that position but it has also been beneficial to many too.

    I'm sure we all know at least one person who does believe and gets comfort from the Angelus, let them have it, there are so few opportunities for happiness in life, why take it away from anyone?


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    #113
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,110 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Note that you go on and on about people's beliefs, I didn't mention people's beliefs at all.

    If a daily dose of religion on TV is such a good thing, why do only catholics get a look in?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #114
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,150 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Note that you go on and on about people's beliefs, I didn't mention people's beliefs at all.

    If a daily dose of religion on TV is such a good thing, why do only catholics get a look in?
    They don't.


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    #115
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    brightspark wrote: »
    Despite the harm that has been done to many by the RCC, many people still have their beliefs and get comfort from them (not sure if you have ever spoken to someone who has just had a bereavement, but I certainly wouldn't recommend telling them there is no afterlife, even though you may not believe in it).

    I can't understand why so many atheists are so evangelical about trying to destroy others beliefs, perhaps they are like the first kid in school to realise that Santa Claus isn't real and then want to tell everyone else, ignoring how it may make some of the other kids unhappy.

    Yes the RCC has power and influence, but so does any large organisation with a lot of followers e.g. the GAA, Finnia Fail etc. and it's true that it has in the past abused that position but it has also been beneficial to many too.

    I'm sure we all know at least one person who does believe and gets comfort from the Angelus, let them have it, there are so few opportunities for happiness in life, why take it away from anyone?

    I had to put up with gobsh!tes telleng me that my wife "has gone to a better place" and that "You know? god is good". Fcuking nonsense. Tell that to her 6 year old daughter and 9 month old son. How I did not beat the crap out of these ar$eholes, I will never know.


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    #116
    brightspark
    Registered Users Posts: 2,637 ✭✭✭brightspark


    galljga1 wrote: »
    I had to put up with gobsh!tes telleng me that my wife "has gone to a better place" and that "You know? god is good". Fcuking nonsense. Tell that to her 6 year old daughter and 9 month old son. How I did not beat the crap out of these ar$eholes, I will never know.

    Sorry for your loss and I do understand what you mean.

    However I had the opposite happen a few years ago when at a wake the young widow was asking for affirmation that she would see her husband again. I bit my tongue and said she would of course. I envied her beliefs whenever I had a loss and I could never destroy someone else's as a result.


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    #117
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    galljga1 wrote: »
    I had to put up with gobsh!tes telleng me that my wife "has gone to a better place" and that "You know? god is good". Fcuking nonsense. Tell that to her 6 year old daughter and 9 month old son. How I did not beat the crap out of these ar$eholes, I will never know.

    How very grateful of you


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    #118
    jcd5971
    Registered Users Posts: 2,549 ✭✭✭jcd5971


    galljga1 wrote: »
    I had to put up with gobsh!tes telleng me that my wife "has gone to a better place" and that "You know? god is good". Fcuking nonsense. Tell that to her 6 year old daughter and 9 month old son. How I did not beat the crap out of these ar$eholes, I will never know.

    Yes how dare people try and be supportive in a time of bereavement, hate to be awful but what else did you want them to say "ara suur she's worm food now" some people just can't be helped smh


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    #119
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    How very grateful of you

    What would one need to be grateful for?


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    #120
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    lazygal wrote: »
    What would one need to be grateful for?

    We've been here before, I don't have time to run around in circles with you. Basically be grateful that they are there for you in their own way.

    In before "but but they arnt really doing anything!" yadda yadda yadda :rolleyes:


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    #121
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,110 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    It is equally as insensitive as a 'worm food' comment, and entirely thoughtless, and entirely indefensible.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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