DART+ (DART Expansion)

SeanW · 10-03-2020 1:49pm

I'd take issue with the "shorter platforms" that's guaranteed to cause unresolvable congestion problems in the future. The current DART, Maynooth and Northern lines can max out 8 car trains today, failing to future-proof the DU would (in the long term) nearly be as bad as not building it at all!

Everything else on that list makes sense, e.g. if it is possible to bring the tunnel up to a portal around Kilmainham and then 4 track from that point onwards.

budhabob · 10-03-2020 1:58pm

Single bore v's twin bore - there isnt necessarily a saving to going single bore due to the size of the bore required. A dividing fire wall would still be required.

What benefits would a shorter tunnel deliver between docklands and inchicore? the DU offers capacity improvements on all lines into and out of Dublin when it connects to the Heuston mainline. without that you deliver very little. you could just not deliver any stations but still improve capacity.

ncounties · 10-03-2020 2:17pm

Is there any reason to believe that this is be prioritised sooner than is currently the case? Or are we still going to have to wait to 2040?

CatInABox · 10-03-2020 5:06pm

ncounties wrote: »

Is there any reason to believe that this is be prioritised sooner than is currently the case? Or are we still going to have to wait to 2040?

Dart Expansion is scheduled to be finished by the end of 2027/28, and is roughly on track. Tenders have gone out for design work on the some of the lines (the work will be phased, so it's no surprise that it's only some so far), along with a tender for up to 600 new carriages.

Dart Underground is totally up in the air, to be honest. Will a future government prioritise DU once the expansion is complete? At that stage, all going to plan, Dublin will have had Metrolink, BusConnects and Dart Expansion all completed. I'd say it'd be a tough sell for parties with a countywide base, at least until the capacity becomes a problem again.

Last Stop · 10-03-2020 7:28pm

ncounties wrote: »

I agree with all your amendments except:

There is a lot of development gaining traction in the Liberties, and I could see this area finally transforming. We should build infrastructure when/before it's needed, and not 20 years after. Furthermore, when, any form of Luas is delivered along the south side of the Liffey, it would interchange with this, and help relieve passenger numbers proceeding onward to the city centre on the Luas service.

On the platform front, what is the planned length for Dart Underground? Is it designed for 8 car, or longer?

I absolutely agree with you but if it’s a choice between not building the station or not building DU at all, I know which one I’d choose.

Last Stop · 10-03-2020 7:32pm

SeanW wrote: »

I'd take issue with the "shorter platforms" that's guaranteed to cause unresolvable congestion problems in the future. The current DART, Maynooth and Northern lines can max out 8 car trains today, failing to future-proof the DU would (in the long term) nearly be as bad as not building it at all!

Everything else on that list makes sense, e.g. if it is possible to bring the tunnel up to a portal around Kilmainham and then 4 track from that point onwards.

Well that’s all relative. Do you design to current DART rolling stock or do you allow for a newer rolling stock which could be more efficient at handling higher numbers? Could a newer shorter train handle the same amount of people?

The ability to increase frequency is also massive. Running DARTs every 5 minutes should have sufficient capacity on all those lines especially when combined with the odd longer distance service.

Last Stop · 10-03-2020 7:38pm

budhabob wrote: »

Single bore v's twin bore - there isnt necessarily a saving to going single bore due to the size of the bore required. A dividing fire wall would still be required.

What benefits would a shorter tunnel deliver between docklands and inchicore? the DU offers capacity improvements on all lines into and out of Dublin when it connects to the Heuston mainline. without that you deliver very little. you could just not deliver any stations but still improve capacity.

There’s no dividing wall in Metrolink’s tunnel based on the info I’ve seen so far.

Single bore has many advantages over twin bore including:
reduced amount of spoil
reduced station box width
reduced number of TBMs required
reduced cost as there is no need for the mined cross passages

The shorter tunnel would connect with the Heuston mainline at Heuston rather than Inchicore. This shaves roughly 2.5km of the tunnel which would save hundreds of millions.

SeanW · 10-03-2020 10:03pm

Last Stop wrote: »

Well that’s all relative. Do you design to current DART rolling stock or do you allow for a newer rolling stock which could be more efficient at handling higher numbers? Could a newer shorter train handle the same amount of people?

The ability to increase frequency is also massive. Running DARTs every 5 minutes should have sufficient capacity on all those lines especially when combined with the odd longer distance service.

The laws of physics dictate that you can only get a certain number of people into a certain space. Design or no design.

The Maynooth Line has trains running in some cases every 10 minutes or so, like in the morning peak. They can totally max out an 8 car train every 10-15 minutes and that's with a line that serves mostly houses.

If Dart U. is built then it may become a development magnet for the Hazelhatch/Kildare line. If developers start building apartment blocks all along it, then you shouldn't be surprised to find that whatever capacity you thought would be fine with say 4 car DARTs is anything but. So do you design for what might be adequate today, or for the future when passenger numbers will likely be much higher?

8 cars should be the absolute balls-to-the-wall minimum and even that may not be enough over the long term. But anything less than that and you'd be almost better off not building the stupid thing at all. Especially given that modifying the tunnels after the fact would be more or less impossible.

Last Stop · 10-03-2020 10:54pm

SeanW wrote: »

The laws of physics dictate that you can only get a certain number of people into a certain space. Design or no design.

The Maynooth Line has trains running in some cases every 10 minutes or so, like in the morning peak. They can totally max out an 8 car train every 10-15 minutes and that's with a line that serves mostly houses.

If Dart U. is built then it may become a development magnet for the Hazelhatch/Kildare line. If developers start building apartment blocks all along it, then you shouldn't be surprised to find that whatever capacity you thought would be fine with say 4 car DARTs is anything but. So do you design for what might be adequate today, or for the future when passenger numbers will likely be much higher?

8 cars should be the absolute balls-to-the-wall minimum and even that may not be enough over the long term. But anything less than that and you'd be almost better off not building the stupid thing at all. Especially given that modifying the tunnels after the fact would be more or less impossible.

You’re right that the Maynooth line has a train every 10 minutes. However these are mainly commuter trains which have less capacity than DART (1280 vs 1400). Even simply switching to DART trains would add 10% capacity during peak hours. And that’s not saying DART trains are the most efficient.

Arguably DARTs could be made even more efficient by having seats along the side like they do in other metro type systems (yes I know this isn’t a metro)
Plus the fact that DART trains are made up of effectively 8 carriages means there is a lot of dead space in between. If they were more like Luas trams where you could stand in between sections, you’d increase the capacity.

This coupled with DART running every 5 minutes, potentially even every 3 minutes like city centre resignalling will accommodate on the loop line, and you’re talking about a capacity of nearly 30,000 passengers per direction during peak hours. Given the current capacity on the Maynooth line is roughly 8,000 I think we’d be pretty safe with slightly shorter trains.

And remember that would be just the tunnel section. You’d still have potentially even more services travelling to Heuston and Connolly/Docklands (assuming quad tracking between Connolly and at least Howth Junction).

I’m not saying it’s the perfect solution and personally I would prefer if they went with the current 8 car DARTs as the platform length but if they were trying to cut the costs to make the project viable, this is the sort of options that would be considered.

highdef · 10-03-2020 11:54pm

SeanW wrote: »

The laws of physics dictate that you can only get a certain number of people into a certain space. Design or no design.

8 cars should be the absolute balls-to-the-wall minimum and even that may not be enough over the long term. But anything less than that and you'd be almost better off not building the stupid thing at all. Especially given that modifying the tunnels after the fact would be more or less impossible.

We really should be making best use of our loading gauge. We've had rolling stock in the past that has been 10' 2" in width. I believe that at least one model of DART (possibly the original 1980s stock) is 9' 6". New rolling stock 8" wider than the current widest rolling stock in the country would fit a fair few extra standing punters when spread over 8 carriages.

Anyone know what the max permitted width is for 20m length stock?

Idbatterim · 11-03-2020 12:36am

FFG looking like they are going to do business, they need the greens. Greens support should be conditional on DM starting in 2021 or they pull the plug. next term if they are in same position, tell them DU is up or the same...

SeanW · 11-03-2020 2:38am

Last Stop wrote: »

You’re right that the Maynooth line has a train every 10 minutes. However these are mainly commuter trains which have less capacity than DART (1280 vs 1400). Even simply switching to DART trains would add 10% capacity during peak hours. And that’s not saying DART trains are the most efficient.

Arguably DARTs could be made even more efficient by having seats along the side like they do in other metro type systems (yes I know this isn’t a metro)
Plus the fact that DART trains are made up of effectively 8 carriages means there is a lot of dead space in between. If they were more like Luas trams where you could stand in between sections, you’d increase the capacity.

This coupled with DART running every 5 minutes, potentially even every 3 minutes like city centre resignalling will accommodate on the loop line, and you’re talking about a capacity of nearly 30,000 passengers per direction during peak hours. Given the current capacity on the Maynooth line is roughly 8,000 I think we’d be pretty safe with slightly shorter trains.

And remember that would be just the tunnel section. You’d still have potentially even more services travelling to Heuston and Connolly/Docklands (assuming quad tracking between Connolly and at least Howth Junction).

I’m not saying it’s the perfect solution and personally I would prefer if they went with the current 8 car DARTs as the platform length but if they were trying to cut the costs to make the project viable, this is the sort of options that would be considered.

1280 to 1400 is not exactly a game changer. It will help to be sure, but DARTs can carry more people mainly because they have fewer seats and no toilets. The Maynooth line could easily max out those 1400 per train today if the DART went there, and remember that's 1400 every 10 minutes. Today. Apartments are being built along the line, there are some serious high density developments being built around Clonsilla and Hansfield.

Now assume that DU is built with 4 car platforms and is the catalyst for very serious high density development along the Northern and Kildare lines. A 4 car train every 5 minutes would provide the same capacity as an 8 car train every 10 minutes which is already too little on some existing lines today. You can surely see a serious problem coming down the tracks (pun intended)

You're right about many of the economies that could be made to get DU "over the line" in the Dail. But I think shorter platforms would be a disaster and something to avoided if at all possible.

Last Stop · 11-03-2020 8:45am

SeanW wrote: »

1280 to 1400 is not exactly a game changer. It will help to be sure, but DARTs can carry more people mainly because they have fewer seats and no toilets. The Maynooth line could easily max out those 1400 per train today if the DART went there, and remember that's 1400 every 10 minutes. Today. Apartments are being built along the line, there are some serious high density developments being built around Clonsilla and Hansfield.

Now assume that DU is built with 4 car platforms and is the catalyst for very serious high density development along the Northern and Kildare lines. A 4 car train every 5 minutes would provide the same capacity as an 8 car train every 10 minutes which is already too little on some existing lines today. You can surely see a serious problem coming down the tracks (pun intended)

You're right about many of the economies that could be made to get DU "over the line" in the Dail. But I think shorter platforms would be a disaster and something to avoided if at all possible.

A 10% increase in capacity is significant!

I understand that the new DART rolling stock will have toilets on board.

Given the journey times, less seats isn’t unreasonable. Maynooth to Connolly is roughly 40 minutes, that similar to Tallaght to Abbey St on the Luas and consider the amount of people that stand from say Red Cow during the morning peak...

Why are you talking about having 4 car platforms? That’s not what I mean when I say shorter platforms. I mean cutting even 10m off the platforms by a more efficient rolling stock design could save hundreds of millions. I don’t think any sane person could justify 4 car platforms

Last Stop · 11-03-2020 8:49am

Idbatterim wrote: »

FFG looking like they are going to do business, they need the greens. Greens support should be conditional on DM starting in 2021 or they pull the plug. next term if they are in same position, tell them DU is up or the same...

Given the Green Party lead the fight against the green line upgrade, I wouldn’t hold out much hope of them driving the campaign. I’d say if Eamon Eyan had his way, DU would interchange with metro at Rathfarnham or something

Zebra3 · 11-03-2020 9:17am

Why is there a discussion about DU platforms and the Maynooth line?

Isn’t the Maynooth DART to run to Bray?

donvito99 · 11-03-2020 11:39am

Last Stop wrote: »

reduced amount of spoil

Doesn't single bore increase volume of spoil as overall tunnel diameter is larger?

Sam Russell · 11-03-2020 11:55am

Last Stop wrote: »

Given the Green Party lead the fight against the green line upgrade, I wouldn’t hold out much hope of them driving the campaign. I’d say if Eamon Eyan had his way, DU would interchange with metro at Rathfarnham or something

It wasn't Green Party policy to prevent the GL upgrade, it was Eamonn Ryan playing the NIMBY card to garner votes. He got his crayons out and designed a whole new Dublin South-side public transport by tram scheme. All was drawn out to gain the Dunville Ave vote.

Sam Russell · 11-03-2020 11:56am

donvito99 wrote: »

Doesn't single bore increase volume of spoil as overall tunnel diameter is larger?

Yes, but a lot is left at the bottom of the bore.

Last Stop · 11-03-2020 11:57am

donvito99 wrote: »

Doesn't single bore increase volume of spoil as overall tunnel diameter is larger?

The volume of spoil of 2 slightly smaller twin bore tunnels is greater than 1 single bore tunnel.

In the single bore tunnel, the diameter is being driven by the height rather than width so a single bore tunnel isn’t that much bigger.

Last Stop · 11-03-2020 11:59am

Sam Russell wrote: »

It wasn't Green Party policy to prevent the GL upgrade, it was Eamonn Ryan playing the NIMBY card to garner votes. He got his crayons out and designed a whole new Dublin South-side public transport by tram scheme. All was drawn out to gain the Dunville Ave vote.

Not just Eamon Ryan, a newsletter was issued by Catherine Martin advocating for Eamons proposals.

salmocab · 11-03-2020 12:39pm

On the spoil thing it really depends on the size of the holes. 2 might have less or might have more.

gjim · 11-03-2020 2:07pm

Last Stop wrote: »

The volume of spoil of 2 slightly smaller twin bore tunnels is greater than 1 single bore tunnel.

In the single bore tunnel, the diameter is being driven by the height rather than width so a single bore tunnel isn’t that much bigger.

A large 2-track single bore tunnel will only be slightly less than double the diameter of a single track tunnel all things considered. Yes metro cars are a little higher than wider but not enough to compensate for the fact that such a large tunnel generates twice as much spoil as two half-diameter tunnels.

The cost saving of a single tunnel has nothing to do with the amount of spoil (which is much greater than with twin smaller tunnels). It's to do with the simple fact that you're only running one TBM and tunnelling half the distance.

Kevtherev1 · 11-03-2020 3:37pm

Last Stop wrote: »

Not just Eamon Ryan, a newsletter was issued by Catherine Martin advocating for Eamons proposals.

And Catherine Martins Husband Noel Francis Duffy also issued the same newsletter. Entire back page was the South metro and luas lines in south dublin crayon nonsense the greens used to hustle votes.

AAAAAAAAA · 11-03-2020 3:41pm

gjim wrote: »

A large 2-track single bore tunnel will only be slightly less than double the diameter of a single track tunnel all things considered. Yes metro cars are a little higher than wider but not enough to compensate for the fact that such a large tunnel generates twice as much spoil as two half-diameter tunnels.

https://www.metrolink.ie/assets/downloads/MetroLink_PR_Design_Development.pdf

Page 23 and 26 they state that the optimised single bore generates 3% less spoil than the equivalent twin bore, while using 29% less concrete.

I'm not really sold on the idea of escape from the front of the trains and along the tracks though from a safety perspective, the elimination of the refuge area seems like a fairly serious oversight as you could end up in a (extremely unlikely) scenario that you had 3 trains end to end, with the middle train completely unable to evacuate.

salmocab · 11-03-2020 3:47pm

Kevtherev1 wrote: »

And Catherine Martins Husband Noel Francis Duffy also issued the same newsletter. Entire back page was the South metro and luas lines in south dublin crayon nonsense the greens used to hustle votes.

Duffy actually drew that particular piece of nonsense

Pete_Cavan · 11-03-2020 7:33pm

The type of tunnel(s) for DU will be determined by engineering considerations and the rolling stock. Metrolink has nothing to do with it. Single bore might not even be possible.

marno21 · 09-04-2020 9:39am

Tender out for multi disciplinary consultants for DART Expansion on the Dublin Coastal (Northern + Southeastern) line

Includes the following:

The project involves trackworks, electrification and resignalling primarily on the Coastal line from Drogheda in the north to Connolly station and from Connolly station to Greystones. The proposed key elements may include:
• Electrification, re-signalling, track and associated civil works to support the projected capacity increase of the Northern Line from Malahide to Drogheda;
• Re-configuring Clongriffin & Howth Junction Station;
• Re-modelling of Drogheda and Fairview Depot and the provision of Battery Electric Multiple Unit (BEMU) charging facilities;
• Turnback Facilities on the Northern & Southern Lines;
• Siding & Stabling facilities;
• Investigate the comparison of a BEMU strategy versus electrification of Northern Line;
• Design an appropriate level of relief infrastructure (structures, civils, signalling, electrification, telecoms, track) in lieu of the increased frequency of level crossing closure on the Southern Line between Greystones & Connolly; and
• Greystones Capacity Improvement including potential 3rd platform.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/165273/1/0

Jammyd · 09-04-2020 10:03am

marno21 wrote: »

Tender out for multi disciplinary consultants for DART Expansion on the Dublin Coastal (Northern + Southeastern) line

Includes the following:

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/165273/1/0

Hi Marno - stupid question but is the Maynooth / M3 line electrification being done as a seperate tender / project? I was of the understanding the Dart expansion was announced as one project - (Vested interest on my part as I'm beside Hansfield station and can't wait to get an actual decent train service vs the joke schedule we have at present)

marno21 · 09-04-2020 10:19am

Jammyd wrote: »

Hi Marno - stupid question but is the Maynooth / M3 line electrification being done as a seperate tender / project? I was of the understanding the Dart expansion was announced as one project - (Vested interest on my part as I'm beside Hansfield station and can't wait to get an actual decent train service vs the joke schedule we have at present)

The project has been split into three separate sections being advanced through design and planning individually at least:

Maynooth/M3 Parkway + City Centre
Hazelhatch/Kildare Line
Drogheda-Greystones

The Maynooth is the most advanced, IE started pre railway order application consultations with An Bord Pleanala in February

CatInABox · 09-04-2020 10:26am

Seems like they're definitely going to have a passing loop between Howth Junction and Clongriffin.

Kinda shocked that they're considering not electrifying the northern line. Very shocked in fact.

Jammyd · 09-04-2020 10:30am

marno21 wrote: »

The project has been split into three separate sections being advanced through design and planning individually at least:

Maynooth/M3 Parkway + City Centre
Hazelhatch/Kildare Line
Drogheda-Greystones

The Maynooth is the most advanced, IE started pre railway order application consultations with An Bord Pleanala in February

Cheers Marno - hopefully we don't see any of these projects de-railed (excuse the pun) because of the current situation

AAAAAAAAA · 09-04-2020 10:42am

CatInABox wrote: »

Kinda shocked that they're considering not electrifying the northern line. Very shocked in fact.

" Electrification, re-signalling, track and associated civil works to support the projected capacity increase of the Northern Line from Malahide to Drogheda;"

reads to me like they're electrifying it

loyatemu · 09-04-2020 10:58am

sounds like they're keeping their options open, possibly electrify part of it and use battery power for the rest (they're unlikely to be running a Dart every 10 mins to Drogheda).

also, on a selfish level:

• Greystones Capacity Improvement including potential 3rd platform.

woot! - first time I've seen the Greystones proposals officially rolled into Dart Expansion.

CatInABox · 09-04-2020 11:35am

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

" Electrification, re-signalling, track and associated civil works to support the projected capacity increase of the Northern Line from Malahide to Drogheda;"

reads to me like they're electrifying it

It's this part I'd be concerned about:

"Investigate the comparison of a BEMU strategy versus electrification of Northern Line"

Jamie2k9 · 09-04-2020 11:44am

CatInABox wrote: »

It's this part I'd be concerned about:

"Investigate the comparison of a BEMU strategy versus electrification of Northern Line"

The problem if they electrify the current two lines it will cause problems long term because for example most rail routes use AC not DC overhead lines so it would be worth considering if BEMU is best for now.

roadmaster · 09-04-2020 11:50am

I Know this probably the wrong place to ask but long term I would presume the entire Irish Rail network will be electrified, so will that mean overhead lines on the entire network or by the time we go to electrify the national network will technology have moved on that a battery operated train will make it from Dublin to Cork?

Jamie2k9 · 09-04-2020 11:52am

roadmaster wrote: »

I Know this probably the wrong place to ask but long term I would presume the entire Irish Rail network will be electrified, so will that mean overhead lines on the entire network or by the time we go to electrify the national network will technology have moved on that a battery operated train will make it from Dublin to Cork?

Unlikely to be fully electrified ever, Dublin-Cork/Belfast/Galway and right now I would expect Bi-Mode for other branches.

donvito99 · 09-04-2020 12:04pm

What will further electrification look like? Does the existing 1500DC between Malahide and Connolly offer a serious problem to Northern, Maynooth and Hazelhatch electrification?

Idbatterim · 09-04-2020 12:15pm

roadmaster wrote: »

I Know this probably the wrong place to ask but long term I would presume the entire Irish Rail network will be electrified, so will that mean overhead lines on the entire network or by the time we go to electrify the national network will technology have moved on that a battery operated train will make it from Dublin to Cork?

the timelines here are so ridiculous, that I think you are right, I would expect to battery technology to improve to such an extent, that they will just be fully battery operated trains...

Sam Russell · 09-04-2020 1:23pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

the timelines here are so ridiculous, that I think you are right, I would expect to battery technology to improve to such an extent, that they will just be fully battery operated trains...

There are a number of options.

1. Battery only - requires recharging options which takes time.

2. Battery/OH electric. Possible for northern line using Dart OH which could also recharge the batteries. (40 km range needed and recharge before return or 80 km range).

3. diesel/OH - like the FLIRT trains. The diesel part can be removed later if it is not required.

4. AC OH/DC OH - use AC for the north of Malahide and Dart DC for south of Malahide.

I am sure there are other possibilities. The big question is whether they will go AC or DC north of Malahide. Malahide is 12 km to Connolly, Drogheda is 40 km north of Malahide. If they go AC then there are fewer substations, so lower cost, but trains are more expensive. They would need AC to go to Cork or Belfast.

antimatterx · 09-04-2020 1:58pm

It's incredible how old this thread is!

Idbatterim · 09-04-2020 2:09pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

There are a number of options.

1. Battery only - requires recharging options which takes time.

2. Battery/OH electric. Possible for northern line using Dart OH which could also recharge the batteries. (40 km range needed and recharge before return or 80 km range).

3. diesel/OH - like the FLIRT trains. The diesel part can be removed later if it is not required.

4. AC OH/DC OH - use AC for the north of Malahide and Dart DC for south of Malahide.

I am sure there are other possibilities. The big question is whether they will go AC or DC north of Malahide. Malahide is 12 km to Connolly, Drogheda is 40 km north of Malahide. If they go AC then there are fewer substations, so lower cost, but trains are more expensive. They would need AC to go to Cork or Belfast.

then you would assume they would go AC on northern line right?

Tomrota · 09-04-2020 5:49pm

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

" Electrification, re-signalling, track and associated civil works to support the projected capacity increase of the Northern Line from Malahide to Drogheda;"

reads to me like they're electrifying it

Mad that they are electrifying all the way to Drogheda, and won’t even electrify into County Kildare on the Kildare line. Electrification ends at Hazelhatch, Co. Dublin. Most short sighted thinking I’ve ever seen.

BonnieSituation · 09-04-2020 5:55pm

Tomrota wrote: »

Mad that they are electrifying all the way to Drogheda, and won’t even electrify into County Kildare on the Kildare line. Electrification ends at Hazelhatch, Co. Dublin. Most short sighted thinking I’ve ever seen.

Are you sure about that?

I mean, this is Iarnród Éireann we're talking about.

donvito99 · 09-04-2020 5:57pm

Stopping at Hazelhatch isn't that short sighted considering the four tracking ends there. Any you can always extend in future.

Tomrota · 09-04-2020 6:11pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Stopping at Hazelhatch isn't that short sighted considering the four tracking ends there. Any you can always extend in future.

If it were to be extended in the future, we all know that’s gonna mean 2070+.

Four tracks? Does drogheda and greystones have four tracks? The reason it doesn’t have four tracks is because of their short sightedness and unwillingness to extend the DART any further than Co. Dublin on this line.

marno21 · 09-04-2020 6:14pm

Tomrota wrote: »

If it were to be extended in the future, we all know that’s gonna mean 2070+.

Four tracks? Does drogheda and greystones have four tracks? The reason it doesn’t have four tracks is because of their short sightedness and unwillingness to extend the DART any further than Co. Dublin on this line.

Extending beyond Hazelhatch might be done in conjunction with the DART Underground tunnel.

There are capacity constraints beyond Heuston that may make expanding too far out into Kildare an issue for the meantime.

The true power of DART to Kildare is only unleashed post DU anyway.

donvito99 · 09-04-2020 6:35pm

Tomrota wrote: »

If it were to be extended in the future, we all know that’s gonna mean 2070+.

Four tracks? Does drogheda and greystones have four tracks? The reason it doesn’t have four tracks is because of their short sightedness and unwillingness to extend the DART any further than Co. Dublin on this line.

It's 20km from Hazelhatch to Glasnevin Junction. It's 12km from Hazelhatch to Naas, another 12 to Newbridge and about 5km more to Kildare. It's not "short sighted" to stop at Hazelhatch, it is a question of money and where it should be spent first.

MJohnston · 09-04-2020 7:49pm

Tomrota wrote: »

Mad that they are electrifying all the way to Drogheda, and won’t even electrify into County Kildare on the Kildare line. Electrification ends at Hazelhatch, Co. Dublin. Most short sighted thinking I’ve ever seen.

Pedantic maybe, but the Kildare line passes through Co Kildare before reaching Hazelhatch.

Dats me · 09-04-2020 8:24pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The problem if they electrify the current two lines it will cause problems long term because for example most rail routes use AC not DC overhead lines so it would be worth considering if BEMU is best for now.

Exactly it is good that IE are actually considering the long term implications

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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