Close Pass

Happyman42 · 03-06-2012 10:50am

Sorry to go off topic a bit here, I see this happening here as kids cycle home from school as part of a learn to cycle scheme. Are there any stock road signs that warn drivers of cyclists in an area? I was thinking of getting a few made up and donating them to the school before the inevitable happens with one of these young riders and an irresponsible or worse (unaware) motorist. I have verbally asked that something be done.
I think it's a classic case of the drivers being unaware of what the safety issues are.

deadlyspot.com · 03-06-2012 10:57am

Jawgap wrote: »

On a separate note, I'm still wondering why anyone would want to strap a camera to their head, record instances of stupidity in Dublin and then publish it on youtube????? I'm none the wiser having had a look at the OP's channel - although it does suggest D4 is like the Dodge City of cycling in the capital!

Seweryn wrote: »

I believe in a situation that you wish you had it recorded, you just have.

Exactly, record it, show it, and learn from it. Do you find that when you explain this to people who don't cycle, they don't believe you. They dismiss you as if you were a child in a playground. I've been knocked off my bike about 8 times, not to mention where I came off due to road surface or my own failings.

Anyway, about a year ago in a 10 day period I was knocked off twice. Non cyclists accused me of being the antagonist due to the proximity of the second time and suggested I was the one at fault as how could anyone be knocked off that much. Sorry, but that's ridiculous.

So, the point of recording is to highlight those instances that need to be shown to other road users, planners or whoever. Road user behaviour is a major factor in your safety. How many of those videos do you relate to? Now you can take that and show that to your loved one and say, remember I told you that this morning I was buzzed my a bus, taxi or whatever, that's what it looked like. It's not acceptable!

I also think that my route is not as bad as some other routes. I would love to know about those places to help bring about change to remove the problem whether that is pressure to change the road layout, or get a clamp down on behaviour at particular points.

deconduo · 03-06-2012 10:58am

Jawgap wrote: »

Using that logic, wouldn't you then have to camera-up your car, yourself when you go walking, the kids, the dogs etc

Its pretty unlikely for something to happen while walking, but a dashboard camera in your car is always a good idea. For example:

If he didn't have the camera that scam would have succeeded. I'm sure it has worked against lots of other people who weren't prepared.

Jawgap wrote: »

And even if you though that was a good idea - or even that just wearing a camera while cycling is a good idea - why publish or post it?

To bring awareness of the problem to other people who might not know about it, and encourage other people to do the same. If the gardai are suddenly inundated with reports of dangerous driving, with evidence to back it up, they will have to start doing something about it.

Jawgap wrote: »

Ride, record - nothing happened, delete it and start again.......

A near miss is not nothing. An inch more and the OP would be on the ground, possibly seriously injured or worse. If that happened to me I would bring that video to the gardai and report the driver for dangerous driving. They might not do anything about it, but at least its on record, with video evidence to back it up.

Greenman · 03-06-2012 11:03am

Does anyone have a view on other cyclists passing you too close?

Some of them (cyclists) seem to have the same unawareness to give room as the motorised drivers.

deadlyspot.com · 03-06-2012 11:06am

Happyman42 wrote: »

Sorry to go off topic a bit here, I see this happening here as kids cycle home from school as part of a learn to cycle scheme. Are there any stock road signs that warn drivers of cyclists in an area? I was thinking of getting a few made up and donating them to the school before the inevitable happens with one of these young riders and an irresponsible or worse (unaware) motorist. I have verbally asked that something be done.
I think it's a classic case of the drivers being unaware of what the safety issues are.

Yeah, but isn't it interesting how many parents send their kids off to school on a bike but tell them not to cycle on the road, they must use the path because it is safer. There's something wrong there. Why do we accept bad driving on the roads?

I'm not aware of particular look out for cyclists signs. In around schools in the UK they have reduced speed limits to 20mph which would be similar to a 30kph here. In particular, Brighton. Take a look at these 2 articles

http://www.theargus.co.uk/yourargus/letters/9684029.20mph_city_wide_speed_limits___Amen_to_that/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/bike-blog/2012/may/15/20mph-speed-limit?cat=environment&type=article

Take a dig around in that and see if you find some inspiration there. I've listed many cycling related articles on deadlyspot.com which are searchable.

deadlyspot.com · 03-06-2012 11:17am

deconduo wrote: »

If he didn't have the camera that scam would have succeeded. I'm sure it has worked against lots of other people who weren't prepared.

Wow... Love that they were caught. Who would believe you!

Jawgap · 03-06-2012 11:19am

deadlyspot.com wrote: »

........I've been knocked off my bike about 8 times, not to mention where I came off due to road surface or my own failings.

Anyway, about a year ago in a 10 day period I was knocked off twice. Non cyclists accused me of being the antagonist due to the proximity of the second time and suggested I was the one at fault as how could anyone be knocked off that much. Sorry, but that's ridiculous.

Interesting.........I don't wear a camera and I've never been knocked off.......

.......a theory is forming:)

deadlyspot.com wrote: »

So, the point of recording is to highlight those instances that need to be shown to other road users, planners or whoever. Road user behaviour is a major factor in your safety. How many of those videos do you relate to? Now you can take that and show that to your loved one and say, remember I told you that this morning I was buzzed my a bus, taxi or whatever, that's what it looked like. It's not acceptable!

I also think that my route is not as bad as some other routes. I would love to know about those places to help bring about change to remove the problem whether that is pressure to change the road layout, or get a clamp down on behaviour at particular points.

It's funny, I thought the point of cycling was to get exercise, be healthy and enjoy being active.

deadlyspot.com · 03-06-2012 11:22am

Jawgap wrote: »

Interesting.........I don't wear a camera and I've never been knocked off.......

.......a theory is forming:)

It's funny, I thought the point of cycling was to get exercise, be healthy and enjoy being active.

Your question has been answered. You are just trolling now. Good day to you.

Dermot Illogical · 03-06-2012 11:31am

deadlyspot.com wrote: »

Anyway, about a year ago in a 10 day period I was knocked off twice. Non cyclists accused me of being the antagonist due to the proximity of the second time and suggested I was the one at fault as how could anyone be knocked off that much. Sorry, but that's ridiculous.

Are you sure they didn't have a point? You're either very very unlucky, or making mistakes and failing to recognise them as such.

Jawgap · 03-06-2012 11:31am

Not trolling - i just baled from the Tour of Louth this morning and I'm a bit stir crazy at being stuck indoors.

I'm also just wondering why, if you find cycling so dangerous, you do it?

What is your agenda in going out with a camera and recording near misses and then posting them? From what you have posted and published I do not recognise cycling in Dublin - sure there are near misses but it's not that dangerous - in fact I'd say it's not dangerous at all, once you ride with a bit of common sense.

Why not post all your footage so the near misses / incidents can be put into some kind of context?

Are you a member of Dublin Cycling Campaign, and if not why not? If you are, fair play to you.

dvntie · 03-06-2012 11:32am

Jawgap wrote: »

deadlyspot.com wrote: »

........I've been knocked off my bike about 8 times, not to mention where I came off due to road surface or my own failings.

Anyway, about a year ago in a 10 day period I was knocked off twice. Non cyclists accused me of being the antagonist due to the proximity of the second time and suggested I was the one at fault as how could anyone be knocked off that much. Sorry, but that's ridiculous.

Interesting.........I don't wear a camera and I've never been knocked off.......

.......a theory is forming:)

You'll probably find he now wears a cam BECAUSE he's been knocked off 8 times

deadlyspot.com · 03-06-2012 11:33am

RT66 wrote: »

Are you sure they didn't have a point? You're either very very unlucky, or making mistakes and failing to recognise them as such.

That's a good poiint. What do you think?

Dermot Illogical · 03-06-2012 11:58am

deadlyspot.com wrote: »

That's a good poiint. What do you think?

I wasn't there (AFAIK

) for any of them so I don't know.
What do you think yourself? Did you question yourself after any of your incidents to see if you could have done anything to prevent them? Did you learn anything along the way?

AltAccount · 03-06-2012 12:06pm

I'd see a logic to wearing the camera, as an aid in prosecution should a driver make a mistake that I felt the need to press charges over.

I don't agree with all these instances being posted online though. Cycling gets safer the more people do it. Publishing all these "near misses by crazy drivers" just reinforces the common perception that cycling is dangerous and may turn people off the idea of cycling.

deadlyspot.com · 03-06-2012 12:17pm

RT66 wrote: »

I wasn't there (AFAIK ) for any of them so I don't know.
What do you think yourself? Did you question yourself after any of your incidents to see if you could have done anything to prevent them? Did you learn anything along the way?

Short answers is No.

The long answer is, most common was left hooks from drivers overtaking from behind to take a left in front of me, or making a sudden acceleration from the outside lane into the bus lane. Rider position and enhanced awareness is the what I had to change to make myself more predominent on the road. This is a very common one to watch out for as a cyclist.

Other cases are really poor driving. I've been hit head on from a car turning a corner that cut onto my side of the road as I was approaching the junction to make a right. Thankfully I was pretty lucky and it was just a squashed bike.

Bus overtake and pulling into bus stop without properly completing the overtake. What's more to say about that.

I've made poor judegements myself in my less experienced days, and I would count them as my own failings.

Dermot Illogical · 03-06-2012 12:26pm

deadlyspot.com wrote: »

Short answers is No.

The long answer is, most common was left hooks from drivers overtaking from behind to take a left in front of me, or making a sudden acceleration from the outside lane into the bus lane. Rider position and enhanced awareness is the what I had to change to make myself more predominent on the road. This is a very common one to watch out for as a cyclist.

Other cases are really poor driving. I've been hit head on from a car turning a corner that cut onto my side of the road as I was approaching the junction to make a right. Thankfully I was pretty lucky and it was just a squashed bike.

Bus overtake and pulling into bus stop without properly completing the overtake. What's more to say about that.

I've made poor judegements myself in my less experienced days, and I would count them as my own failings.

The left turns and bus incidents can be reduced by road positioning. Moving out of the cycle lane and taking the lane as you approach left turns, and pinch points, is a good strategy. It forces following traffic to think. Listen to engine sounds and you'll know if some muppet has decided to go for it anyway. If traffic is built up, overtake on the right rather than using the cycle lane. Car doors are also less likely to open in front of you on that side.
I find this works for me. YMMV.

deadlyspot.com · 03-06-2012 12:34pm

AltAccount wrote: »

I'd see a logic to wearing the camera, as an aid in prosecution should a driver make a mistake that I felt the need to press charges over.

I don't agree with all these instances being posted online though. Cycling gets safer the more people do it. Publishing all these "near misses by crazy drivers" just reinforces the common perception that cycling is dangerous and may turn people off the idea of cycling.

But on the other hand you wouldn't stick your head in the sand and say it doesn't happen. There is a need for change and education. I have seen cyclists take up cycling and then have a bad experience very quickly, then decide not to do it again.

There is plently to learn from the way cyclists and motorists interact. Publishing the footage of that brings out good examples of what should / shouldn't be done.

Cycling does get safer and better the more that do it. Just how many people take it up because they sit in traffic and watch the cyclist whizz down the bus lane.

What do you think of this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSkNB4VMvYc

and this video, who obviously felt uncomfortable with a particular stretch of their cycle route. They didn't give up, but adapted another approach. Who needs to know better here? The cyclist? The truck driver? or both?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieR7835wwQc

Jawgap · 03-06-2012 12:59pm

deadlyspot.com wrote: »

.......

What do you think of this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSkNB4VMvYc

and this video, who obviously felt uncomfortable with a particular stretch of their cycle route. They didn't give up, but adapted another approach. Who needs to know better here? The cyclist? The truck driver? or both?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieR7835wwQc

What I take from these videos and your comments appended to them is that it seems to be ok to cycle on the the footpath outside the British Embassy, but not on the Merrion Road........

deadlyspot.com · 03-06-2012 1:08pm

RT66 wrote: »

The left turns and bus incidents can be reduced by road positioning. Moving out of the cycle lane and taking the lane as you approach left turns, and pinch points, is a good strategy. It forces following traffic to think. Listen to engine sounds and you'll know if some muppet has decided to go for it anyway. If traffic is built up, overtake on the right rather than using the cycle lane. Car doors are also less likely to open in front of you on that side.
I find this works for me. YMMV.

But why did it happen in the first place? You are basically talking about defensive cycling.

What about the perception that cyclists should stay left? Many road designs show a cycle lane on the left in a left turn only lane. It doesn't show that the cyclist should be out from the cycle lane in those cases. That gives the wrong idea to road users. IMO, it's even more hazardous when the same cycle lane is painted in a left and straight lane. A lot of those cars you hear are going straight past, but what catches you is the car getting barely in front and taking a left. This is the dangerous left hook. That's dangerous driving.

Here is one of those junctions at Booterstown. Not a fan of these layouts at all. Also, I don't see why there should be a left and straight lane here because motorists jump in to go straight and get through the junction to the other side and remerge into the outside lane. This needlessly ties up traffic. This road space could be much clearer if it was not permitted to go straight in the inside lane. That bus could be gone down the road and not tied up. Plus less work for me to do :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyEao_JPs34

Dermot Illogical · 03-06-2012 1:46pm

deadlyspot.com wrote: »

What about the perception that cyclists should stay left? Many road designs show a cycle lane on the left in a left turn only lane. It doesn't show that the cyclist should be out from the cycle lane in those cases. That gives the wrong idea to road users. IMO, it's even more hazardous when the same cycle lane is painted in a left and straight lane. A lot of those cars you hear are going straight past, but what catches you is the car getting barely in front and taking a left. This is the dangerous left hook. That's dangerous driving.

I ignore the perception that cyclists should always stay left, and it serves me well. In the past I've successfully completed advanced motorcycle training and I find that a lot of the techniques I learned transfer very well to cycling, so I tend to position myself as I would have when I was a motorcyclist. I also cycle very assertively and defensively. Assertive in taking a position on the road, and defensive in choice of position.
Coming up to a junction with an option to go left or straight on I will not give following traffic the opportunity to left hook. They will need to leave the lane completely to go around me. I've only ever had one or two try it, and I knew it was coming from the noise they made.
As soon as I've cleared the junction I move back in to the left.

dearg lady · 03-06-2012 1:50pm

deadlyspot.com wrote: »

There has been attempts to get a definied minimum passing distance, but none is established in Irish traffic law as far as I know. In the UK they have 1.5m.

Not legally binding of course, but I know last year they were sending out a leaflet with motor tax renewal forms, suggesting a 1.5m distance when overtaking a cyclist. I'm not sure I've ever had anyone leave that much space!

I can see how you could have easily been knocked off your bike twice in such a short space of time. I find I seem to have a run of bad luck, then no incidents for a while. The worst one was a woman who drove straight into me, she was on the far side of the road, and suddenly veered across my side to take a turn, but she moved way before the turn, and came head on towards me. I did my best to get out of the way, and thank god it was only a buckled wheel, I was fine. I should have reported her though, that was seriously dangerous driving.

AltAccount · 03-06-2012 3:12pm

deadlyspot.com wrote: »

What do you think of this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSkNB4VMvYc

I don't have much of an issue with it.

For the silver taxi, the cyclists were perfectly happy to undertake with that level of room, so it's fairly reasonable that the taxi should feel they can overtake with the same level of room (although it looks like they float right a little when overtaking, so they've allowed even more room than the cyclist has indicated they require).

For the red taxi, yes they beeped in frustration (they're wrong to get frustrated), but they allowed you a very safe overtaking distance, so I wouldn't get wound up over that one.

deadlyspot.com wrote: »

and this video, who obviously felt uncomfortable with a particular stretch of their cycle route. They didn't give up, but adapted another approach. Who needs to know better here? The cyclist? The truck driver? or both?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieR7835wwQc

The truck driver, as a professional driver is stupid for thinking it's OK to squeeze past like that.

The cyclist is very much contributing to the situation (possibly even precipitating it) with their terrible lane positioning. For the first couple of seconds, I couldn't figure out what the hell they were up to at all.
There was also a near-ish miss by the motorbike, again due to the cyclist's lane positioning. That would have ended off pretty badly for both of them TBH.

As for the cyclist's solution, that's even more idiotic. Switch an unsafe practice for an illegal one?
If they're afraid of the traffic, they should stay in your lane and then, when they get to the lights at the Merrion Gates, they should dismount and cross the road like a pedestrian.

In summary - the cyclist is showing a complete ignorance of roadcraft and lane discipline, and rather than learn the lesson or analyse their behavoir, they're letting themselves off the hook and taking the easy way out.

In the process they're contributing to the general opinion that cyclists don't obey the rules of the road and aren't real vehicles, making the roads more dangerous for us all.

-PornStar- · 03-06-2012 4:33pm

Don't mind the haters deadlyspot. When I was forced into the ditch over a year ago, by a 4x4. I really lost confidence on the bike. But since watching countless youtube videos recorded by cyclists like yourself. It really has shown me, how I should be much more assertive on the road. And not get bullied to the side, just because someone feels it is their right to pass me on a blind corner.

I have since had two more incidents on that very same corner. Just yesterday I had someone beep behind me, and then overtake right on the corner. As he came along side me, and matched my speed. I could see his wife in the front seat, and his child in the rear. I assume he was going to have a word with me while driving on the wrong side of the road. But I gave them an earful of my air horn, and they quickly carried on. Really wish I had of captured it on camera. While I was relatively safe in my positioning. The family in the car, and any cars that may have come around the corner, were in immediate danger.

But, as I was saying. I really have to say thank you for uploading these videos. I now have a better idea of what to look out for as a cyclist.

rich.d.berry · 03-06-2012 7:01pm

DeadlySpot, I too want to lend my support. I have watched many of your Youtube videos and consider you to be in the top 10% of video uploading cyclists. There are many who are rude, confrontational and overly sensitive (sensationalist). You, however, are calm, polite, patient and proficient. Also, your informative and critical footage of new infrastructure is excellent.

I think that new cyclists can learn a great deal from your footage. Keep up the excellent work!

manafana · 03-06-2012 7:37pm

i had an incident last friday, a driver for a courier company, i was in front at lights pulled off, not a wqide road but does have clearly defined cycle lane which i was in, see this guy in his van up my arse, but sped on knowing he could just pass soon anyway,

Ends up passing me then parking in left straight, meaning i have break and swerve around and hes blocking the cars behind too anyway from passing straight away. I come past and tell them hes cut me off to which e replies f off, once i hard that i decided take his number plate, i actually kept head very well and didnt go to his level and explained what he had done

He says to me then that i was going to fast for him get past me, to which i replied so you decided since i was going to fast it would be good idea to overtake me just before u stop. reported him but got no reply so will be calling again tuesday awful driving and attiude.

Konkers · 03-06-2012 8:47pm

a148pro wrote: »

The driver in the first clip does commit a criminal offence, either careless or dangerous driving, the distinction between the two isn't clear cut

The problem from the Garda's perspective is that you don't have enough to prove who the driver is. In theory he could check who the registered owner is and then go out and try and get a statement from him. If he admitted he was driving at the time then he'd prob have a case.

But without that reg plate and partial shot of face wouldn't be enough.

But the conduct depicted is, imo, criminal

He does have the reg......no?
Sorry, just a silly question but I assume that to convict a speeding driver or hand out penalty points for same you do not need a head shot? Is it not up to the principally insured driver to prove he was not driving the car and to nominate the person who was? Unless his car was stolen, in which case he would have had to report it as so. I'd love to see a conviction come from this. Not out of vindictiveness. Just because the driver was obviously being wreckless.

Mycroft H · 03-06-2012 9:18pm

manafana wrote: »

i had an incident last friday, a driver for a courier company, i was in front at lights pulled off, not a wqide road but does have clearly defined cycle lane which i was in, see this guy in his van up my arse, but sped on knowing he could just pass soon anyway,

Ends up passing me then parking in left straight, meaning i have break and swerve around and hes blocking the cars behind too anyway from passing straight away. I come past and tell them hes cut me off to which e replies f off, once i hard that i decided take his number plate, i actually kept head very well and didnt go to his level and explained what he had done

He says to me then that i was going to fast for him get past me, to which i replied so you decided since i was going to fast it would be good idea to overtake me just before u stop. reported him but got no reply so will be calling again tuesday awful driving and attiude.

Report it to a manager in the courier company. I've done that before with BE drivers.

a148pro · 03-06-2012 10:49pm

Konkers wrote: »

He does have the reg......no?
Sorry, just a silly question but I assume that to convict a speeding driver or hand out penalty points for same you do not need a head shot? Is it not up to the principally insured driver to prove he was not driving the car and to nominate the person who was? Unless his car was stolen, in which case he would have had to report it as so. I'd love to see a conviction come from this. Not out of vindictiveness. Just because the driver was obviously being wreckless.

For penalty points yes, because there is a provision that presumes the registered owner was driving until he or she nominates someone else. Don't think that provision operates for careless or dangerous driving, both of which carry an outright ban as opposed to points (automatic in the case of dangerous, discretionary in the case of careless).

Plasid · 04-06-2012 1:08am

Keep posting, both the fun ones and the bad, both are on your channel if people bothered to look properly and I found it entertaining.

This being reactionary Ireland these examples of "bad" are a necessary tool in changing attitudes and RE-educating practices by all sides.

The chilled out and fun posts do cheer me up more though

monkeypants · 04-06-2012 10:39am

deadlyspot.com wrote: »

Thanks, and not all drivers appreciate you saying something.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7axuGXm8_Qc

At 00:31: "I'm very careful!" - i.e. full of care.
At 00:45: "I don't care!"

Hmm...

buffalo · 04-06-2012 10:53am

Just catching up on all this after being away. OP, I'd report that guy to your local station. If he didn't at least roll down the window and apologise, I'd hang him out to dry. Goes back to the other thread I started - if he was decent enough to admit to you he made a mistake and he was sorry, then fair enough. If he hides away, he's probably in denial that he did anything wrong. You have the reg, make and model, the exact time and date it happened, report him and let the Gardaí sort out whether it's a warning, points, or conviction.

Jawgap wrote: »

Using that logic, wouldn't you then have to camera-up your car, yourself when you go walking, the kids, the dogs etc

And even if you though that was a good idea - or even that just wearing a camera while cycling is a good idea - why publish or post it?

Ride, record - nothing happened, delete it and start again.......

I know for me, I'm definitely considering buying one. I had a driver pull out in front of me, causing me to swerve, then he overtook me, pulled in front and hit the brakes. Amidst all this I memorised his reg plate, but got it wrong according to the Garda who followed up my complaint. Had I had camera, that malicious eejit would hopefully have had some kind of conviction or points.

Publishing it... I'm not sure. It makes people more aware of the dangers cyclists face from inconsiderate/incompetent road users, and there's also the excellent Silly Cyclists series that illustrate the dangerous things cyclists do themselves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaumnn4SxUs - #1 undertaking a bus.

RT66 wrote: »

Are you sure they didn't have a point? You're either very very unlucky, or making mistakes and failing to recognise them as such.

It happens. I find certain times of the year, especially as the clocks change, there seems to be a glut of stupidity. There's only so many lights a cyclist can wear.

AltAccount wrote: »

I don't have much of an issue with it.

For the silver taxi, the cyclists were perfectly happy to undertake with that level of room, so it's fairly reasonable that the taxi should feel they can overtake with the same level of room (although it looks like they float right a little when overtaking, so they've allowed even more room than the cyclist has indicated they require).

The truck driver, as a professional driver is stupid for thinking it's OK to squeeze past like that.

Note the relative speeds though. When the cyclists undertake, the taxi is barely moving. When he overtakes, he has picked up a fair bit of speed. This makes his manoeuvre more dangerous. Also, taxi drivers are professional drivers too.

manafana wrote: »

He says to me then that i was going to fast for him get past me, to which i replied so you decided since i was going to fast it would be good idea to overtake me just before u stop. reported him but got no reply so will be calling again tuesday awful driving and attiude.

Again, report them! Arsehole drivers like that won't learn from their mistakes, until there are consequences. A call to the courier company might result in him and his manager having a laugh. A call to the Gardaí might cost him his job, and will make him think twice about his actions in future.

Jawgap · 04-06-2012 11:58am

buffalo wrote: »

......
I know for me, I'm definitely considering buying one. I had a driver pull out in front of me, causing me to swerve, then he overtook me, pulled in front and hit the brakes. Amidst all this I memorised his reg plate, but got it wrong according to the Garda who followed up my complaint. Had I had camera, that malicious eejit would hopefully have had some kind of conviction or points.

.......

If you are on a bike you are going to have the occasional near miss (unfortunately) but the OP has 265 videos uploaded in 3 months!! OK, not all of them are near misses, but trying to make out that cycling is as dangerous as this, when it clearly is not is wrong. I don't recognise the cycling experience in Dublin as being consistent with the majority of these videos.

Either some routes are a lot more dangerous for commuting on, or I'm just that good at not getting into 'situations'

Infra-structure in the city could be an awful lot better, but generally it's not that bad and most drivers, most of the time are very considerate towards cyclists - the rest of the time they're ambivalent and on a few rare occasions they're inconsiderate, hostile or down right aggressive - the same is also true of all road users.

The rhetoric and language his (assuming it's a he) is very dramatic - it's all deadly spots, clash points, left hook, punishment pass etc......it's all very......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BfZGF1dBQM

Cycling in Dublin...."every day is a duel.....every life is on the line.....and every turn in the road brings you to a new terror..."

buffalo · 04-06-2012 1:59pm

Jawgap wrote: »

If you are on a bike you are going to have the occasional near miss (unfortunately) but the OP has 265 videos uploaded in 3 months!! OK, not all of them are near misses, but trying to make out that cycling is as dangerous as this, when it clearly is not is wrong. I don't recognise the cycling experience in Dublin as being consistent with the majority of these videos.

Either some routes are a lot more dangerous for commuting on, or I'm just that good at not getting into 'situations'

Infra-structure in the city could be an awful lot better, but generally it's not that bad and most drivers, most of the time are very considerate towards cyclists - the rest of the time they're ambivalent and on a few rare occasions they're inconsiderate, hostile or down right aggressive - the same is also true of all road users.

All true, but as cyclists we are more vulnerable - mixing it up with vehicular traffic, while not having the same protection as them. I had a close pass once, and I pulled alongside and told him very politely that he hadn't given me enough room. He insisted he had, and demonstrated his perfect control of his vehicle by accidentally driving up onto the kerb. He probably would've kept insisting he was a perfect driver while ploughing through someone's garden.

So being able to show every road user the potential hazards they face, and educating them on how to avoid either causing or falling victim to them - video footage is very useful.

I do agree that some people can over-dramatise it, at the expense of new cyclists who then fear the roads. I've seen that effect in some of my friends, thank to my own tales of "things I saw on the road today". But I'd prefer people to be able to learn from others' mistakes (and near-misses), than the hard way.

-PornStar- · 04-06-2012 2:06pm

Jawgap wrote: »

If you are on a bike you are going to have the occasional near miss (unfortunately) but the OP has 265 videos uploaded in 3 months!! OK, not all of them are near misses, but trying to make out that cycling is as dangerous as this, when it clearly is not is wrong. I don't recognise the cycling experience in Dublin as being consistent with the majority of these videos.

Clearly you haven't looked at the majority of these videos. Because the majority of his videos are uploaded to show the crappy cycling infrastructure on his commute. The rest are broken down into friendly/funny incidents. Highlighting bad cycling behavior. And a small fraction show incidents he has had with motorists. Just because the OP has cherry picked certain videos from his channel to highlight an ongoing problem he has come across. Does not mean his channel is mostly comprised of these problems. While you were on his channel, if you had taken an additional 15 seconds to scroll down you would have seen this.

I really cant fathom your agenda here. You seem to think that these type of videos give a bad impression of cycling. But I am not speaking with merely anecdotal evidence. I am telling you as an inexperienced rider, that these videos, and videos like them. Have given me the confidence to get back on my bike after over a years hiatus. I now know what a left hook is, and what to look out for in these cases. I know now to never, ever undertake leading up to traffic lights. Especially when the lead vehicle is a HGV. I now have a great understanding of why it is best to stay with the traffic behind the lead vehicles at traffic lights. I would never have known about any of this stuff and much more, without these videos.

Jawgap · 04-06-2012 3:11pm

-PornStar- wrote: »

Clearly you haven't looked at the majority of these videos. Because the majority of his videos are uploaded to show the crappy cycling infrastructure on his commute. The rest are broken down into friendly/funny incidents. Highlighting bad cycling behavior. And a small fraction show incidents he has had with motorists. Just because the OP has cherry picked certain videos from his channel to highlight an ongoing problem he has come across. Does not mean his channel is mostly comprised of these problems. While you were on his channel, if you had taken an additional 15 seconds to scroll down you would have seen this.

I really cant fathom your agenda here. You seem to think that these type of videos give a bad impression of cycling. But I am not speaking with merely anecdotal evidence. I am telling you as an inexperienced rider, that these videos, and videos like them. Have given me the confidence to get back on my bike after over a years hiatus. I now know what a left hook is, and what to look out for in these cases. I know now to never, ever undertake leading up to traffic lights. Especially when the lead vehicle is a HGV. I now have a great understanding of why it is best to stay with the traffic behind the lead vehicles at traffic lights. I would never have known about any of this stuff and much more, without these videos.

No clearly I haven't watched all 250+ videos because
(a) I have a life
(b) That life is too short
(c) I'd rather cycle than watch videos of cycling

there are plenty of less emotive ways to convey the risks, disadvantages, benefits and pleasure of cycling to everyone including the experienced and the noobs, and everyone in between.

Dublincycling.ie is a decent site, as is the London Cycling Campaign..... compare the language and iconography of these sites with www.deadlyspot.com.

Even the RSA have a video or two advising cyclists on how to use the road safely....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxxWhtK8vxw

.....and as much and all as it pains me to type this, it's not a bad series.

There's also Sean Kelly's Guide to cycling freely available online and contains some excellent advice (pg 40 onwards covers RotR and cycling etiquette).

My own agenda is simple enough, my day job involves the assessment and management of risk and it really 'gets my goat' to see the reality of a hazard warped to generate a perception that is crafted to suit a vague agenda.

-PornStar- · 04-06-2012 3:46pm

Jawgap wrote: »

No clearly I haven't watched all 250+ videos because
(a) I have a life
(b) That life is too short
(c) I'd rather cycle than watch videos of cycling

I never said you had to watch any of the videos. Just take 15 seconds, at the most, to scroll down and see the titles of the videos. If you had of done that, then you would see that comparatively very few of his videos are incidents with motor vehicles.

there are plenty of less emotive ways to convey the risks, disadvantages, benefits and pleasure of cycling to everyone including the experienced and the noobs, and everyone in between.

Dublincycling.ie is a decent site, as is the London Cycling Campaign..... compare the language and iconography of these sites with www.deadlyspot.com.

Once again, you clearly have not even bothered to look at the guys website. The majority of the videos on his homepage are showing dangerous cycle facilities. You can tell this just by the titles.

Bad design creates a clash point in Bray
A pinch point for your consideration
Killiney Glenageary Roundabout
Bad Traffic Planning no help for cyclists

Two of the videos highlight dangerous incidents.

Watch your lane and Left Hook
Buses and cycling can be a hazard

I have read Cyclecraft, which is a great book on cycle safety. But without practical examples you are only getting half the picture. I would rather find these things out from watching very real examples, than finding out on the road myself.

http://dublincycling.ie/ looks pretty good, for what it is. But its mostly fluff pieces, with no real value with regards good cycling practices. What material on safety that is there, is yet again in written form. Actual video examples hold much more weight.

If you are going to cite sources. Can you please take just a few minutes to actually look at what you intend on referring to.

My own agenda is simple enough, my day job involves the assessment and management of risk and it really 'gets my goat' to see the reality of a hazard warped to generate a perception that is crafted to suit a vague agenda.

So as someone who's very job is to assess risk. You cannot see that there is risk involved when cycling on the road with other road users. No one is warping anyone's perception. When people post videos of their pets doing stupid stuff. People don't automatically assume that all pets are constantly doing stupid stuff. Just because a lot of videos about cars on Youtube, are car crashes, or compilations of car crashes. Doesn't mean that people automatically assume that all cars are spontaneously crashing.

Jawgap · 04-06-2012 5:39pm

What's the basis for saying this, or any of the examples, represents bad design?

Just because it inconveniences cyclists, it is bad design? Maybe in inconveniencing cyclists, they made the road safer for other road users?

In the "Bad design creates a clash point in Bray" example - the footpath looks narrow enough as it is. It would be difficult to justify taking more path to create a more continuous cycle path especially when you consider you are in the vicinity of a school and a GAA club, which no doubt (especially in the case of the school) means times when there are lots of daft kids milling about.

The one beside it - "A pinch point for your consideration" - they're the Scherzer Bridges which given that they are a hundred years old I'm pretty sure they are protected - do we start ripping out all the bits of industrial and architectural heritage that get in the way?

.....and what exactly is a 'clash point' - until I read his website, I thought this was a cycling clash point.....

-PornStar- · 04-06-2012 6:01pm

You are just being fastidious, and getting away from your initial point now. But I will indulge you.

Jawgap wrote: »

What's the basis for saying this, or any of the examples, represents bad design?

Just because it inconveniences cyclists, it is bad design? Maybe in inconveniencing cyclists, they made the road safer for other road users?

In the "Bad design creates a clash point in Bray" example - the footpath looks narrow enough as it is. It would be difficult to justify taking more path to create a more continuous cycle path especially when you consider you are in the vicinity of a school and a GAA club, which no doubt (especially in the case of the school) means times when there are lots of daft kids milling about.

Or they could just get rid of the cycle lane in this particular section altogether. Then cyclists wouldnt be lulled into a false sense of security, and then suddenly come upon this pinch point. Yes all road users should be aware of what is coming up, but in this case the cycle lane puts the users in potential danger.

The one beside it - "A pinch point for your consideration" - they're the Scherzer Bridges which given that they are a hundred years old I'm pretty sure they are protected - do we start ripping out all the bits of industrial and architectural heritage that get in the way?

I never seen anyone suggest such a thing. For you to jump to that conclusion is absolutely ridiculous. Much like many of the other videos found on this particular channel. This video is highlighting a section of road, where the cyclist needs to be particularly assertive. Nothing more.

monument · 04-06-2012 6:29pm

Jawgap wrote: »

My own agenda is simple enough, my day job involves the assessment and management of risk and it really 'gets my goat' to see the reality of a hazard warped to generate a perception that is crafted to suit a vague agenda.

You're putting words in his mouth or at least inferring something that is not there.

What's his vague agenda? That's vague claim if there ever was one!

Jawgap wrote: »

What's the basis for saying this, or any of the examples, represents bad design?

Just because it inconveniences cyclists, it is bad design? Maybe in inconveniencing cyclists, they made the road safer for other road users?

In the "Bad design creates a clash point in Bray" example - the footpath looks narrow enough as it is. It would be difficult to justify taking more path to create a more continuous cycle path especially when you consider you are in the vicinity of a school and a GAA club, which no doubt (especially in the case of the school) means times when there are lots of daft kids milling about.

Who said anything about taking away from the footpath?

And, come off it. It is really poor design. Why?...

Shifting cyclists to right like this should not be done at a private entrance, never mind a busy one like a school (this could be avoided here by setting the transition back by reducing the filter lane in the other direction)
The cycle track is continuous, the markings are worn away
Because the way motorists come into the cycle track -- how do you think the marking were worn away?
The cycle track is marked with a dashed line when the NTA's cycle manual says the dashed design is "Only to be used in exception circumstances where Mandatory Cycle Lane is inappropriate"

Jawgap wrote: »

The one beside it - "A pinch point for your consideration" - they're the Scherzer Bridges which given that they are a hundred years old I'm pretty sure they are protected - do we start ripping out all the bits of industrial and architectural heritage that get in the way?

What exactly do you think he is suggesting here? Because it looks to me he is just highlighting it to cyclists.

Jawgap · 04-06-2012 6:30pm

-PornStar- wrote: »

You are just being fastidious, and getting away from your initial point now. But I will indulge you......

.....I never seen anyone suggest such a thing. For you to jump to that conclusion is absolutely ridiculous. Much like many of the other videos found on this particular channel. This video is highlighting a section of road, where the cyclist needs to be particularly assertive. Nothing more.

I think you mean facetious.

Anyway, re the Aircoach one - the last thing you want to be in a situation like that is assertive. I cycle that stretch regularly - if it had been me, I would have just slowed, let the bus pass before I even got near the bridge and I certainly would have slowed down once I realised there was bus along side me and we were heading for those bridges.

He seems to want to hold his line and force the bus to back off.

If I've learned one thing in the city centre, it's don't f&ck with Aircoaches (or Kavanaghs) - even where you are 100% totally right......as the guide says

"don’t be afraid to reasonably assert your rights, but try not to be too pushy or self-righteous either."

My opinion, the rider in the video is being pushy and self-righteous.

Mycroft H · 04-06-2012 6:59pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Anyway, re the Aircoach one - the last thing you want to be in a situation like that is assertive. I cycle that stretch regularly - if it had been me, I would have just slowed, let the bus pass before I even got near the bridge and I certainly would have slowed down once I realised there was bus along side me and we were heading for those bridges.

He seems to want to hold his line and force the bus to back off.

If I've learned one thing in the city centre, it's don't f&ck with Aircoaches (or Kavanaghs) - even where you are 100% totally right......as the guide says

"don’t be afraid to reasonably assert your rights, but try not to be too pushy or self-righteous either."

My opinion, the rider in the video is being pushy and self-righteous.

There is the nub of it. The Bus should have held off, gave way to traffic already there. I would have equally tried to hold my position, I don't like getting squashed. He saw a gap and went for it. See if you keep letting coaches, buses, HGVs and cars walk all over cyclists, your going to keep having the same problem over and over again.

I'm familiar with the bridge at the customs house and its definitely one of the spots where I would have moved out to center lane for my own safety. Anywhere there is a pinch point, I hold my lane.

However, in saying all that, I look after myself first. So if I see a situation where the potential is there to get hurt, I'm slamming on the anchors.

-PornStar- · 04-06-2012 7:02pm

Jawgap wrote: »

I think you mean facetious.

I meant what I said, and I said you were getting overly concerned with minute detail. This is a ploy often used by people to get away from their initial point of view. Not saying it is the case here, but this is usually done when that point of view is indefensible.

Anyway, re the Aircoach one - the last thing you want to be in a situation like that is assertive. I cycle that stretch regularly - if it had been me, I would have just slowed, let the bus pass before I even got near the bridge and I certainly would have slowed down once I realised there was bus along side me and we were heading for those bridges.

He seems to want to hold his line and force the bus to back off.

If I've learned one thing in the city centre, it's don't f&ck with Aircoaches (or Kavanaghs) - even where you are 100% totally right......as the guide says

"don’t be afraid to reasonably assert your rights, but try not to be too pushy or self-righteous either."

My opinion, the rider in the video is being pushy and self-righteous.

This is so far away from your initial point now. I would be a fool to further engage with you on this particular matter.

To attempt to get back to what you were saying. As an inexperienced rider myself. I am telling you with first hand experience. That I would most likely never have bothered using my bike again, only for these videos. This is completely contrary to what you were saying, in that they would only scare people away from cycling. So as one of the people you appear to be speaking for, I am telling you, you are wrong.

John37 · 04-06-2012 7:11pm

Do any posters here find it safer to cycle on country rural roads then in a suburban area such as the city center?

Briain O Loinsigh · 04-06-2012 7:18pm

The percentage of the population in Ireland that cycles is still small. Videos like these are fine for cyclists with some sort of experience ,for those without that viewpoint ,I can imagine it a different story.

Seweryn · 04-06-2012 7:20pm

John37 wrote: »

Do any posters here find it safer to cycle on country rural roads then in a suburban area such as the city center?

Yes, I much prefer narrow, bendy country roads to anything. I also cycle on a busy national road with some dangerous bends (nearly as dangerous as in the city, but with vehicles passing at higher speed) and very little in town, where I avoid using cycle lanes, as on my cycle to work it is too dangerous to use some particular stretches and also impractical.

I do not cycle in busy town / city and would prefer not to.

awec · 04-06-2012 7:22pm

Surely it's a trade off?

City centres = lots of traffic but moving at a slow enough speed.

Rural roads (especially windy country lanes) = not a lot of cars, but any there are will be travelling at speed.

-PornStar- · 04-06-2012 7:24pm

John37 wrote: »

Do any posters here find it safer to cycle on country rural roads then in a suburban area such as the city center?

I primarily cycle on rural roads. The vast majority of motorists are absolutely fantastic. Usually they overtake on the complete other side of the road. A lot of them are very patient when it comes to oncoming traffic, or blind corners. These ones always get a friendly wave, after I move aside when the coast is clear. HGV are usually especially courteous for some reason, usually get a flash of hazard lights when they pass.

Since being more assertive. The only incidents I have are people beeping behind me, approaching corners. Which I assume is to let me know they are behind me, and they would like me to move aside so they can pass on the corner. I must stress, that this is a very rare occurrence.

Beasty · 04-06-2012 7:39pm

I cycle mainly mainly rural roads, and although there have been plenty of dangerous manouvers by drivers I have not had any very close calls with motor vehicles. I put it down to being assertive most of the time, but backing off when appropriate.

Tbh, there are a few people out there that go out of their way to find problems. There are others that don't go looking for it, but will not back off when they encounter it. There are others (and I put myself in this category) who when they anticipate issues will take action to minimise the risk.

I'm not saying my approach will guarantee safety - nothing can do that - but I do believe it reduces any risk to myself when cycling.

Jawgap · 04-06-2012 7:49pm

John37 wrote: »

Do any posters here find it safer to cycle on country rural roads then in a suburban area such as the city center?

Different risks, but I'd say generally safer. I think the key determinant is speed - city traffic tends to be voluminous and slow moving - rural traffic, less of it but faster moving.

Interestingly, the RSA stats state that between 1997 and 2009:

"51.4% of the cyclists road death occurred on rural roads (i.e. road roads with speed limit more 60km/h)" Total deaths were 175 (1997 to 2009)

The figure is the reverse for serious injuries:-
364 (59.4%) of serious injuries to cyclists were on urban roads compared to 251 (40.6%) on rural roads (1997 to 2009).

Jawgap · 04-06-2012 7:58pm

I can't find the original report, but there was a piece of work done by the Guards and the City Council that showed that while the majority (8 out of 11) cycling fatalities between 2002 and 2006 involved left turning HGVs, the largest proportion of car -v- bike collisions involved right turning vehicles.

Side swipes were the next most frequent type of occurence.

In other words, bad and all as the left hook is, it's the right cross and rabbit punch you have to look out for;)

Linky to a piece about the report on DCC

Close Pass

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