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Speedy Gonzales or Slowpoke Rodriguez?
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T, before I get into the nitty-gritty, some things:Thanks Stazza. Its inspiring to see a plan work as well as that.
Would be great if you asked Jake re seeing his training plan. Would be very interested in seeing it. Its good to see how quickly he was able to progress his AT runs. I think his sub max marathon (2:23 and 98% PMP) must have been a great base of specific endurance for him. He knew he could go the full distance close to PMP at that stage and could concentrate on extending his ability to run actually @ or faster than PMP (AT sessions, PMP runs), supported by some LT sessions and the HM race. These AT sessions were of enough volume to also maintain his ability to run fast for the marathon distance only needing to top up with the 16.3 mile AT run 4 weeks out from the target race.
Great if you could post those blogs and logs too, but in your own time.
After my Dublin masters outing yesterday, i've a long way to go!
Will introduce one of the Kellogg base building half speed sessions this week.
Thanks again
It’s difficult to comment on the training of others without knowing the person and their circumstances – family, job, nutrition, sleep and the whole shooting match. Also, most of us don’t like to be told that our ideas/methods/ training schedules have faults – most of us think we’ve got it bang on. We’re a dogmatic breed. That said, I know you are a student of the sport and that your knowledge of training and all the rest of the stuff is way up there with the best of them. You also, from what I’ve witnessed, are not stuck to one ideology – you seem flexible and thoughtful in your approach.
If what I say rubs you up the wrong way, please don’t take offence and excuse my ineptitude and ignorance. I can be a bit gung-ho at times.
For good reason, I haven’t gone back over your training and race: I followed your training and read your race report at the time. From your race report, I can specifically remember you mentioning something about your son/daughter. The main thing that struck me from your training was how you fell apart after such a great start. I also recall thinking, when I posted something about a session you lifted from Lydia Cheromei’s Amsterdam schedule, T’s lost his way here. I think the session was from late in her preparations and you had it early in yours.
As you started the more specific phase of your training, it seemed to me, from a close reading of your log, that you had the burden of mankind on your shoulders. You seemed to be swamped in misery instead of enjoying your running. I might be wrong here, but that was the impression I had from reading your log at the time. Subsequently, I wasn’t surprised when things started to go ’wrong’.
You mention above about the lack of a schedule – it’s difficult to wing a marathon and get a pb. The marathon is a simple race; people complicate it.
Another point, and I suspect I stand alone on here with this one – I don’t think you (universal pronoun, not you specifically) should race during the final 8-10 weeks of a marathon build-up. But what about the elites everybody screams. Well, if we look closely, some race and some don’t. But if you are in good 5k/10k/10 mile/half shape, 6 weeks out from a marathon, you are not getting the most out of your training. Sure, you might well get a pb etc. But if you didn’t race, your pb would be much improved, that is, of course, if the training’s right. I could go into the details of this but it would start getting complicated, so I’ll save it for another time. The time to race is before you enter the final 8-10 weeks.
If you look at the specifics of what you actually did, there’s little in there that would suggest busting 2:30 – that doesn’t mean that you can’t smash through 2:30 – you most certainly can.
For Frankfurt, I like how you are starting now. I do, however, get a sense from the sub text of your log that you might be about to change direction – that’s ok – so long as you don’t panic and go off on some mad quick-fix. The idea of a big aerobic base is good and adding in some other bits and pieces at this stage is good too – so long as they have a purpose and you are planning on progressing them towards your eventual goal. I got this from you comment about the Masters thing you mentioned.
I also have reservations about how you are planning on going from a big base to middle distance on the track and then on into marathon training. This, if not handled correctly, will fail. Yes, some can get away with this method and make a big breakthrough but I think you might destroy your aerobic base and be starting from scratch. And yet, this is similar to the method I prefer for the first two stages of a four stage approach – I would be more inclined to transition in from a big base to 5k work and then ease into what I call a catapult method of LT training, which blends into a 5 month marathon build-up (I’ll explain this another time).
Anyway, you’re either punching the computer screen or you’ve fallen asleep – so I’ll leave it there, for now.
Remember, no offence intended, just honest thoughts.
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Why would you be doing mile repeats/1k repeats 2-8 weeks prior to a marathon? I was going to ask, do you drop everything faster than PMP in the last 8 weeks?
The immediate and obvious answer - the same reason to do some shorter races in the build-up - is 'to keep from going insane'.
A bit more thought - because some variety of training stimulus is needed, even in the last couple of months, for the training to be effective. Yes, the last few months become more and more about PMP, but you don't want to fall into a rut either. Some runs at a faster pace make the PMP feel easier, even if the faster runs are the secondary sessions in a week. Also faster running can help you keep in touch with form.0 -
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Thanks for the input Stazza, great analysis.......For good reason, I haven’t gone back over your training and race: I followed your training and read your race report at the time. From your race report, I can specifically remember you mentioning something about your son/daughter.
That was a photo my wife emailed to me of my daughter which I visualised when things got tougher during the race to keep the mind positive, and it worked a treat.
Sleep wasn't an issue during the preparation although it is now with a 4 month old in tow: that's another reason why the big base of easy running idea seems to fit quite well for this phase.
I will encounter problems with tiring sessions at the moment. A slow adaption to big mileage bypasses this to a degree.The main thing that struck me from your training was how you fell apart after such a great start. I also recall thinking, when I posted something about a session you lifted from Lydia Cheromei’s Amsterdam schedule, T’s lost his way here. I think the session was from late in her preparations and you had it early in yours.
The big session you mentioned (from Cheromei's schedule) was roughly at the same time out from marathon as hers (7 weeks), although definitely at a different stage of preparation as, unlike myself, she had several fast LT and AT type sessions bagged at that stage. I honestly felt the benefit of the 3k hard uphill in that session in leg strength at the end of the marathon. The HM the following week and the session the week after absolutely killed me. Mileage was down, I knew things were off the rails and I was finding it difficult to change it with a tired mind. I remember asking for opinions on PMP here before the marathon race, but in reality PMP should have been decided before the specific phase.As you started the more specific phase of your training, it seemed to me, from a close reading of your log, that you had the burden of mankind on your shoulders. You seemed to be swamped in misery instead of enjoying your running. I might be wrong here, but that was the impression I had from reading your log at the time. Subsequently, I wasn’t surprised when things started to go ’wrong’.
That was after 5 weeks out and things were probably already wrong. 3 weeks of monster sessions without adequate adaption had tired me out and reduced my mileage. I actually had an aversion to running any hard miles after that. I didn't manage to complete a real session bar a 10k race and only a race environment and a steady start enabled me to manage that.You mention above about the lack of a schedule – it’s difficult to wing a marathon and get a PB. The marathon is a simple race; people complicate it.
Agreed.
I had ran 25k miles in just over 96% of 2:32 pace pace 7.5 weeks out.
To keep it simple after this: Use two more session to extend this run to say 32k+.
Start AT sessions as part of long runs eg 5x3k, 4x5k, 5x5k all with a moderate k recovery.
That with the HM @ PMP and one long run say 16k E 16k @AT, should have got me a 2:32 on the day. Easy-moderate running with a little fast fartlek and strides, in between.Another point, and I suspect I stand alone on here with this one – I don’t think you (universal pronoun, not you specifically) should race during the final 8-10 weeks of a marathon build-up. But what about the elites everybody screams. Well, if we look closely, some race and some don’t. But if you are in good 5k/10k/10 mile/half shape, 6 weeks out from a marathon, you are not getting the most out of your training. Sure, you might well get a pb etc. But if you didn’t race, your pb would be much improved, that is, of course, if the training’s right. I could go into the details of this but it would start getting complicated, so I’ll save it for another time. The time to race is before you enter the final 8-10 weeks.
Another drawback for the HM in particular is the rest needed before and after. That said 8-10 weeks out it might serve as a final huge LT boost before AT focused on.
Another session I saw when a hard workout was needed, was a HM: first half at MP, second half progressing to finish at HM pace.
Some elites like to run a 8-10k race 2 weeks out as a marathon sharpener. Id imagine that might be of benefit as long as it was paced sensibly and a big buildup of lactic was avoided in the last k. Any gains made I guess should be weighed against the fact that it might encourage a glucose to be burned quicker which is problematic, but if the runner paces it well and doesn't run the last 2k all out it could be beneficial on balance.For Frankfurt, I like how you are starting now. I do, however, get a sense from the sub text of your log that you might be about to change direction – that’s ok – so long as you don’t panic and go off on some mad quick-fix. The idea of a big aerobic base is good and adding in some other bits and pieces at this stage is good too – so long as they have a purpose and you are planning on progressing them towards your eventual goal. I got this from you comment about the Masters thing you mentioned.
The big mileage plan is still intact. Just need to be consistant with strides and the odd 200s session (e.g 8k of 200 @ 5k, 200 steady) to ensure that the easy and steady aerobic running is economical.I also have reservations about how you are planning on going from a big base to middle distance on the track and then on into marathon training. This, if not handled correctly, will fail. Yes, some can get away with this method and make a big breakthrough but I think you might destroy your aerobic base and be starting from scratch. And yet, this is similar to the method I prefer for the first two stages of a four stage approach – I would be more inclined to transition in from a big base to 5k work and then ease into what I call a catapult method of LT training, which blends into a 5 month marathon build-up (I’ll explain this another time).
To be honest youre probably right there. If my marathon was in the Spring of 2015 i'd have time for the middle distance season and to build up again.
I had considered something like THIS. Based n Rosa's training.Remember, no offence intended, just honest thoughts.
Non taken, I really appreciate the feedback!0 -
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