Latvian Referendum

born2bwild · 19-02-2012 1:22pm #1

So, the Latvians rejected Russian as a second official language.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0219/latvia.html

And?

Whichever way you look at this I think they were wrong:

From the left: This is unfair and unjust because those who do not have proficiency in Latvian are not given full Latvian citizenship. 1/3 of the population is Russian while almost everyone speaks Russian. The situation is akin to Switzerland deciding that its French speakers or Italian speakers are not entitled to full citizenship.

From the right: Many Russian speakers have had to leave Latvia on Aliens Passports because doors are shut in their faces in employment, education, services. They often end up here working in low paid jobs or sitting on the dole.

Don't get me wrong, I think that foreigners are welcome here - all of them (if they're willing to work) - I threw the argument from the right in because I think it illustrates not only how this decision is vindictive and unjust but also how thoroughly irresponsible it is for a member state of the EU to pass laws like this.

A santīms/копейк for your thoughts???

Bullseye1 · 19-02-2012 1:26pm

I understand that these former soviet countries are trying to distance themselves from their past association within the USSR but punishing a significant portion of your population is not the way to go about it. If they are not careful they will have a seperatist movement.

born2bwild · 19-02-2012 1:33pm

You've got the same situation in many ex-soviet Republics, the sins of the Soviet fathers being visited on the Russian - speaking 'children'.

Ukraine was not that far from civil war in 2004 because of the same kind of tensions - the Orange Revolution has ended now, of course and there's a kind of truce there.

However, Latvia is in the EU. It has responsibilities not only to its own people but to its neighbours; including us.

I understand that the overwhelming factor in sustaining the Russsophobia of the Latvian population is the resurgence of Russia as a geopolitical giant but the Latvians need to get over this.

blatantrereg · 19-02-2012 1:34pm

Not surprised at all. Most Eastern Europeans really didn't like the Soviet Union. It's only been 20 years. And Russia is not exactly a delightful nation right now tbh. Gorbachev, whose policies were explicitly what allowed former Warsaw Pact countries to revolt - he's been blocked from forming a political party there. He's suggested that Putin and the like are trying to return the place to the worst times of the USSR.

44leto · 19-02-2012 1:38pm

The Latvians shouldn't upset the big bear. But morally they shouldn't discriminate against their own citizens. The EU should formally object.

AngryBollix · 19-02-2012 1:41pm

born2bwild wrote: »

So, the Latvians rejected Russian as a second official language.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0219/latvia.html

And?

Whichever way you look at this I think they were wrong:

From the left: This is unfair and unjust because those who do not have proficiency in Latvian are not given full Latvian citizenship. 1/3 of the population is Russian while almost everyone speaks Russian. The situation is akin to Switzerland deciding that its French speakers or Italian speakers are not entitled to full citizenship.

From the right: Many Russian speakers have had to leave Latvia on Aliens Passports because doors are shut in their faces in employment, education, services. They often end up here working in low paid jobs or sitting on the dole.

Don't get me wrong, I think that foreigners are welcome here - all of them (if they're willing to work) - I threw the argument from the right in because I think it illustrates not only how this decision is vindictive and unjust but also how thoroughly irresponsible it is for a member state of the EU to pass laws like this.

A santīms/копейк for your thoughts???

They voted for it. You didnt

Piglet1984 · 19-02-2012 1:42pm

I am Latvian and I voted against Russian as the 2nd language in Latvia.

"This is unfair and unjust because those who do not have proficiency in Latvian are not given full Latvian citizenship."

In many countries, in order to apply for citizenship, one must be able to speak the country's lamguage. These non-latvian speaking people, who were brought in by the Soviets to russify the smaller Baltic nations, have been living in Latvia since the 60s (and their descendants) and they still haven't learned the basic Latvian. How is that even possible?! I really must question a certain nation's intelligence...

1/3 of the population is Russian while almost everyone speaks Russian.
Not quite true. The younger generation (bar those living in the capital and the Latgale region) i.e. those born in the 1980s and 1990s do not speak Russian.

Many Russian speakers have had to leave Latvia
Nobody has been forced to leave Latvia. Funny though, they will go to, say, Germany, and learn German but they won't learn Latvian.

doors are shut in their faces in employment, education, services.
Did you know that there are bi-lingual schools in Latvia? These schools are state-funded.

born2bwild · 19-02-2012 1:43pm

blatantrereg wrote: »

Not surprised at all. Most Eastern Europeans really didn't like the Soviet Union. It's only been 20 years. And Russia is not exactly a delightful nation right now tbh. Gorbachev, whose policies were what explicitly allowed former Warsaw Pact countries to revolt - he's been blocked from forming a political party there. He's suggested that Putin and the like are trying to return the place to the worst times of the USSR.

Russia is definitely not a democracy and it is definitely dangerous living anywhere near them.

That does not justify refusing full citizenship to people just because they are not proficient in Latvian. I have met lots of Latvians on Aliens passports over here. Many of them are children and pensioners. The pensioners lived all of their lives in Latvia - worked, fought in wars (WW2, Afghanistan), lived ordinary lives - the change of government turned them into 'aliens'.

If your family doesn't speak Latvian, if you are too old or too busy to learn it citizenship is denied in Latvia. That is scandalous and shameful.

Mike 1972 · 19-02-2012 1:46pm

While I shouldnt give a serious issue like this the AH treatment does anyone else think theres something about the photo accompanying that news report that makes it look like a scene from Father Ted ?

blatantrereg wrote: »

Gorbachev, whose policies were what explicitly allowed former Warsaw Pact countries to revolt

IIRC Gorbachev's policies towards revolts in the Baltic states were -for a time at least somewhat less benign than was the case for the rest of the former Eastern bloc ?

born2bwild wrote: »

The situation is akin to Switzerland deciding that its French speakers or Italian speakers are not entitled to full citizenship.

Lets not forget there is a certain other EU country whose constitution only affords the status of second language to the mother tounge of over 98% of its population. And where for quite a long time non-speakers of the first notional official language were denied educational qualifactions (even in entirely unrelated subjects) on leaving school.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 19-02-2012 1:53pm

born2bwild wrote: »

So, the Latvians rejected Russian as a second official language.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0219/latvia.html

And?

Whichever way you look at this I think they were wrong:

From the left: This is unfair and unjust because those who do not have proficiency in Latvian are not given full Latvian citizenship. 1/3 of the population is Russian while almost everyone speaks Russian. The situation is akin to Switzerland deciding that its French speakers or Italian speakers are not entitled to full citizenship.

From the right: Many Russian speakers have had to leave Latvia on Aliens Passports because doors are shut in their faces in employment, education, services. They often end up here working in low paid jobs or sitting on the dole.

Don't get me wrong, I think that foreigners are welcome here - all of them (if they're willing to work) - I threw the argument from the right in because I think it illustrates not only how this decision is vindictive and unjust but also how thoroughly irresponsible it is for a member state of the EU to pass laws like this.

A santīms/копейк for your thoughts???

I'd argue that the law is exclusionist rather than the language. If it were brought in here, people would rebel against the law, but not the language.

Can you prove the "from the right" opinion? Again, even if you can, that's law and public opinoin, not the language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 19-02-2012 1:54pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

While I shouldnt give a serious issue like this the AH treatment does anyone else think theres something about the photo accompanying that news report that makes it look like a scene from Father Ted ?

I was trying to work out what bloody episode it was from!

Sonnenblumen · 19-02-2012 2:01pm

born2bwild wrote: »

So, the Latvians rejected Russian as a second official language.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0219/latvia.html

And?

Whichever way you look at this I think they were wrong:

From the left: This is unfair and unjust because those who do not have proficiency in Latvian are not given full Latvian citizenship. 1/3 of the population is Russian while almost everyone speaks Russian. The situation is akin to Switzerland deciding that its French speakers or Italian speakers are not entitled to full citizenship.

From the right: Many Russian speakers have had to leave Latvia on Aliens Passports because doors are shut in their faces in employment, education, services. They often end up here working in low paid jobs or sitting on the dole.

Don't get me wrong, I think that foreigners are welcome here - all of them (if they're willing to work) - I threw the argument from the right in because I think it illustrates not only how this decision is vindictive and unjust but also how thoroughly irresponsible it is for a member state of the EU to pass laws like this.

A santīms/копейк for your thoughts???

You can keep it - more proof of once a red always a red.:mad:

Pacifist Pigeon · 19-02-2012 2:04pm

Where's Latvia again?

born2bwild · 19-02-2012 2:09pm

Piglet1984 wrote: »

I am Latvian and I voted against Russian as the 2nd language in Latvia.

"This is unfair and unjust because those who do not have proficiency in Latvian are not given full Latvian citizenship."

In many countries, in order to apply for citizenship, one must be able to speak the country's lamguage. These non-latvian speaking people, who were brought in by the Soviets to russify the smaller Baltic nations, have been living in Latvia since the 60s (and their descendants) and they still haven't learned the basic Latvian. How is that even possible?! I really must question a certain nation's intelligence...

1/3 of the population is Russian while almost everyone speaks Russian.
Not quite true. The younger generation (bar those living in the capital and the Latgale region) i.e. those born in the 1980s and 1990s do not speak Russian.

Many Russian speakers have had to leave Latvia
Nobody has been forced to leave Latvia. Funny though, they will go to, say, Germany, and learn German but they won't learn Latvian.

doors are shut in their faces in employment, education, services.
Did you know that there are bi-lingual schools in Latvia? These schools are state-funded.

Your points:

1. Russian speakers living in Latvia did not learn Latvian because it was not necessary - Russian was enough to live your life.

Just because many countries require people to speak a language to become citizens does not mean that requirement is morally right. People who don't learn one language (and I know lots of immigrants to this country who have not learnt English properly because, they do not have the time or ability) cannot be denied citizenship. I give you the example of Switzerland again: German/Swiss dominates. Why not deny citizenship to the French/Italian speakers?

You speak of these people as being 'brought in to Russify the smaller states'. As you know, everyone in the Soviet Union did what they were told - they had no choice. You went where you were sent.

As for intelligence? Well, I guess if that was a requirement for citizenship I would not have a passport.

2. Honestly I have met many, many Latvians; in work and outside work. I have only met 2 Latvian speakers the rest (including young children) speak Russian.

3. If you don't learn German you can't have a proper life in Germany. Until very recently if you didn't learn Latvian you could still have a proper life in Latvia. That was certainly bad for Latvia - I'm not going to claim that the Soviet Union was a good thing for the Latvian language. The point remains, though, and you have not addressed it as a people, there are 2 hundred thousand Russian speakers in your country. You are denying those who speak only that language full citizenship for no better reason than you resent the Soviets.

4. Of course nobody is forced to leave Latvia. The point is that things are made difficult for people just because of the language that they speak and they leave. Next thing they're arriving here without a word of English with an 'Aliens passport' in their hand. I met one old man (60) in the immigration office who was too old to work, too old to learn a new language, too old to be treated like a second-class citizen.

As a country you need to stop punishing your own people for what the Soviets did to you and them.

5. I have done some research into bi-lingual educational policies in different parts of the world and none of the post-soviet Republics rates very highly in this area. The leaders in this area are Canada, US, the Sumi regions of Scandinavia, Australia.

born2bwild · 19-02-2012 2:17pm

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I'd argue that the law is exclusionist rather than the language. If it were brought in here, people would rebel against the law, but not the language.

Can you prove the "from the right" opinion? Again, even if you can, that's law and public opinoin, not the language.

I'm not sure what you mean by the language being exclusionist.

At any rate I'm criticising the Latvians for introducing this law. I would make the same argument if the Latvian was not recognised as an official lanaguge.

Think about the fuss we kicked up when the EU forgot to recognise Irish as an official language! And this was for a language that almost nobody speaks on a day to day basis.

In contrast, Russian is spoken every day in Latvia but it is not recognised alongside Lativian. Why? because the Latvians want a large part their population to have second-class citizenship in order to give the Russians the two fingers.

born2bwild · 19-02-2012 2:24pm

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

You can keep it - more proof of once a red always a red.:mad:

Yup - Shelbourne kick off their season at home to Sligo Rovers on Friday 2nd March.

Mike 1972 · 19-02-2012 2:25pm

born2bwild wrote: »

As a country you need to stop punishing your own people for what the Soviets did to you and them.

Did Stalin not originally try to justify the Soviet annexation of the Baltic states by holding virtually the entire population of said states responsible for the fact that some of them may have collaborated with the Germans during the Nazi invasion of the USSR ?

Seemingly the practice of holding entire populations responsible for past misdeeds which most of them had little or no hand act or part in is still fashionable in that part of the world

born2bwild · 19-02-2012 2:31pm

Quick question for any Latvians on here:

The referendum was defeated 76-24.

Were the second-class citizens allowed to vote?

19-02-2012 2:38pm

One way to look at is to compare Latvia with Ireland of about 250 years ago and the referendum was to ask if English be the second official language then.

OK I know all those in power spoke English but the same was probably true in Latvia during the Soviet era, as in all those in power spoke Russian.

Latvia can retain Latvian as the principal language whereas Ireland effectively lost Irish a couple of centuries ago.

fando · 19-02-2012 2:38pm

born2bwild wrote: »

because the Latvians want a large part their population to have second-class citizenship in order to give the Russians the two fingers.

Maybe they did it to protect their national identity for the generations to come.

born2bwild · 19-02-2012 2:45pm

fando wrote: »

Maybe they did it to protect their national identity for the generations to come.

I think it's wrong to protect your identity by trying to erase the identity of 2 hundred thousand people.

They would have a fairer, happier, stronger society if they made the Russian speakers feel at home.

By the way, I found the answer to last question:

The 290,660 'non-citizens' did not have a vote.

The electorate was 1.09 million.

How can they get away with this?

born2bwild · 19-02-2012 2:54pm

Deleted User wrote: »

One way to look at is to compare Latvia with Ireland of about 250 years ago and the referendum was to ask if English be the second official language then.

OK I know all those in power spoke English but the same was probably true in Latvia during the Soviet era, as in all those in power spoke Russian.

Latvia can retain Latvian as the principal language whereas Ireland effectively lost Irish a couple of centuries ago.

The analogy doesn't work. At independence there were about 2million Latvians. Of these, 715, 000 were immediately declared 'non-citizens'.

The fact is that Russian was spoken every day by people who spoke Latvian, Ukrainian, Russian, Kazakh, German etc etc at home.

Nearly half the population were immediately told, in clear language, "you are not wanted here!".

That was and remains wrong, wrong, wrong.

Sonnenblumen · 19-02-2012 2:57pm

born2bwild wrote: »

Yup - Shelbourne kick off their season at home to Sligo Rovers on Friday 2nd March.

Yeah but don't bother turning up if you're hoping to see any homegrown nazi persecutor puppets play.

Oh I forgot, that's in the past, komm komrad, vee must clean and prepare now for our new vuture.:(

fando · 19-02-2012 3:23pm

born2bwild wrote: »

The fact is that Russian was spoken every day by people who spoke Latvian, Ukrainian, Russian, Kazakh, German etc etc at home.

It's a logical step for them, to try to shift focus from Russian to Latvian language; if they don't want Latvian become what Irish language is in Ireland today.

Although, the way its done its questionable, I agree.

Doc Ruby · 19-02-2012 3:24pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Latvia can retain Latvian as the principal language whereas Ireland effectively lost Irish a couple of centuries ago.

Funny how its use is increasing so.

Russia tried to colonise Latvia, Latvia won, now the Latvians are trying to rid their country of its unwelcome imperialistic foreign influences. Fair play to them I say and good luck with it.

Mike 1972 · 19-02-2012 3:36pm

fando wrote: »

It's a logical step for them, to try to shift focus from Russian to Latvian language; if they don't want Latvian become what Irish language is in Ireland today.

How would that happen when the ratio of Latvian speakers to non latvian speakers is seemingly 1.09 million:290,660

fando · 19-02-2012 3:44pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

How would that happen when the ratio of Latvian speakers to non latvian speakers is seemingly 1.09 million:290,660

How was that possible in Ireland?

Cavehill Red · 19-02-2012 3:51pm

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Funny how its use is increasing so.

Russia tried to colonise Latvia, Latvia won, now the Latvians are trying to rid their country of its unwelcome imperialistic foreign influences. Fair play to them I say and good luck with it.

^^^^
This.

born2bwild · 19-02-2012 4:09pm

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Funny how its use is increasing so.

Russia tried to colonise Latvia, Latvia won, now the Latvians are trying to rid their country of its unwelcome imperialistic foreign influences. Fair play to them I say and good luck with it.

The Soviet Union, an oppressive and brutal empire, colonised Latvia for half a century.

Latvia didn't 'win'; the Soviet Union collapsed and Latvia got rid of "its unwelcome imperialistic foreign influence[]" in 1991.

The struggle you describe ended over two decades ago.

One of Latvia's first acts as an independent state was to disenfranchise nearly half of its population - because those people didn't have proficiency in Latvian.

The 'non-citizens' are just ordinary men, women and children.

Latvia had a chance this week to do the right thing. They did the wrong thing.

Shame on them, I say.

Piglet1984 · 19-02-2012 4:10pm

born2bwild wrote: »

Quick question for any Latvians on here:

The referendum was defeated 76-24.

Were the second-class citizens allowed to vote?

As a citizen of Latvia I cannot vote in any Irish referendums, so obviously the answer is no.

Also, please stop with this non-sense of 2nd class citizens.

Doc Ruby · 19-02-2012 4:18pm

born2bwild wrote: »

Latvia didn't 'win'; the Soviet Union collapsed and Latvia got rid of "its unwelcome imperialistic foreign influence[]" in 1991.

If your flag is no longer flying over the state buildings, you lost.

It beats me how these imperialistic colonisers, men who come with the gun and fire, always seem to feel they are owed special treatment after they are evicted. To put it another way, if Russia hadn't invaded in the first place Russians wouldn't now find themselves in this position.

So the moral of the story is don't invade other countries really. Simples.

Mike 1972 · 19-02-2012 4:21pm

fando wrote: »

How was that possible in Ireland?

Since Ireland became an independent state fluent Gaelic speakers have always constituted a small minority of the population.

The situation in Latvia regarding the Latvian language since independence is evidently not analogus to the Irish situation in this respect.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

It beats me how these imperialistic colonisers, men who come with the gun and fire, always seem to feel they are owed special treatment after they are evicted. To put it another way, if Russia hadn't invaded in the first place Russians wouldn't now find themselves in this position..

Says a guy posting in English on an Irish website ?

born2bwild · 19-02-2012 4:24pm

Piglet1984 wrote: »

As a citizen of Latvia I cannot vote in any Irish referendums, so obviously the answer is no.

Also, please stop with this non-sense of 2nd class citizens.

They're known as 'non-citizens' or 'aliens' - there's nothing nonsensical about the use of the term 'second class citizen'; a bit sensationalist, maybe, but accurate.

If I cannot have a passport or vote because I cannot speak one of the two main languages in the country I am a second class citizen.

It's far from nonsense:
The BBC uses the term "non citizen" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8630304.stm

The American Government uses the term "non-citizen":
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5378.htm#people

This is not fiction. Your country had a chance to make the right decision in 1991 - it made a decision that would have made the a Soviet bureaucrat proud.

Your country had a chance to make the right decision yesterday - it made the wrong decision.

Stop enacting revenge on your own population. Your problem is with the Mussolini of St Petersburg, Vladimir Putin.

You can contact his representative in Ireland here: http://dublin.rusembassy.org/

It's time for Latvia to treat all of its citizens equally. If you don't want to make Russian an official language at least take the proficiency test requirement away - show that you welcome and trust people and they will respond positively.

Doc Ruby · 19-02-2012 4:27pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Says a guy posting in English on an Irish website ?

...how is that doing a special favour for anyone?

Zebra3 · 19-02-2012 4:29pm

born2bwild wrote: »

However, Latvia is in the EU. It has responsibilities not only to its own people but to its neighbours; including us.

I think you may need to look at a map.

born2bwild · 19-02-2012 4:29pm

Doc Ruby wrote: »

If your flag is no longer flying over the state buildings, you lost.

It beats me how these imperialistic colonisers, men who come with the gun and fire, always seem to feel they are owed special treatment after they are evicted. To put it another way, if Russia hadn't invaded in the first place Russians wouldn't now find themselves in this position.

So the moral of the story is don't invade other countries really. Simples.

As I pointed out in a previous post the Soviet Union took all responsibility away from its 'citizens'.

You had no say in who ran the country.

Not only that, you often had no say in where you were sent to work; Latvia, Siberia, Kazakhstan.

These people did not come with 'the gun and fire'. They went where they were told. Refusing to do what you were told in the Soviet Union tended to bring out 'the gun and fire'.

Latvia is victimising people who were themselves victims of an oppressive empire.

That is wrong.

born2bwild · 19-02-2012 4:31pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

I think you may need to look at a map.

The world is smaller place than it used to be.

Even riff raff like Pat's and Shamrock Rovers can get into the ex-Soviet Union these days.

Doc Ruby · 19-02-2012 4:38pm

born2bwild wrote: »

As I pointed out in a previous post the Soviet Union took all responsibility away from its 'citizens'.

You had no say in who ran the country.

Not only that, you often had no say in where you were sent to work; Latvia, Siberia, Kazakhstan.

These people did not come with 'the gun and fire'. They went where they were told. Refusing to do what you were told in the Soviet Union tended to bring out 'the gun and fire'.

Latvia is victimising people who were themselves victims of an oppressive empire.

That is wrong.

Not only did the Soviets collaborate with Nazi Germany in order to invade Latvia, within living memory, something they only admitted in 1989, hundreds of thousands of Latvians were deported or murdered by the Russians in the "Soviet Terror".

You can say what you like about Russians apparently being forced at gunpoint to work in Latvia, but sooner or later someone has to take some responsibility. Thankfully the Latvians are more enlightened than the Russians and aren't deporting or murdering anyone, but I support them in their efforts to rebuild a non-segregated society and get rid of Russian influence.

Honestly, people protesting about having to learn Latvian in Latvia with a history like that.

19-02-2012 4:51pm

born2bwild wrote: »

They're known as 'non-citizens' or 'aliens' - there's nothing nonsensical about the use of the term 'second class citizen'; a bit sensationalist, maybe, but accurate.

If I cannot have a passport or vote because I cannot speak one of the two main languages in the country I am a second class citizen.

It's far from nonsense:
The BBC uses the term "non citizen" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8630304.stm

The American Government uses the term "non-citizen":
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5378.htm#people

This is not fiction. Your country had a chance to make the right decision in 1991 - it made a decision that would have made the a Soviet bureaucrat proud.

Your country had a chance to make the right decision yesterday - it made the wrong decision.

Stop enacting revenge on your own population. Your problem is with the Mussolini of St Petersburg, Vladimir Putin.

You can contact his representative in Ireland here: http://dublin.rusembassy.org/

It's time for Latvia to treat all of its citizens equally. If you don't want to make Russian an official language at least take the proficiency test requirement away - show that you welcome and trust people and they will respond positively.

What is preventing you from getting a Latvian passport, assuming you want one, more to the point what passport are you on now?

Piglet1984 · 19-02-2012 4:51pm

born2bwild wrote: »

The Soviet Union, an oppressive and brutal empire, colonised Latvia for half a century.

Latvia didn't 'win'; the Soviet Union collapsed and Latvia got rid of "its unwelcome imperialistic foreign influence[]" in 1991.

The struggle you describe ended over two decades ago.

One of Latvia's first acts as an independent state was to disenfranchise nearly half of its population - because those people didn't have proficiency in Latvian.

The 'non-citizens' are just ordinary men, women and children.

Latvia had a chance this week to do the right thing. They did the wrong thing.

Shame on them, I say.

The use of 2nd class citizen is sensationalist and completely unncessary in this regard. This isn't the Daily Mail...

I would like to clarify that only in certain regions of Latvia, the capital and the Latgale region, there is a large non-Latvian speaking population. It is not an issue for the rest of the country (the majority).

This referendum will only create a divide between the Latvian and non-Latvian (this isn't even the right term to use as most of the actually do speak Latvian, just cannot be arsed to do it) speaking population. At the end of the day, it's all political and the people / organisations driving this don't really care about the ordinary non-Latvian speaking person.

And should you wish to recommend to the government to Latvia that the Latvian language proficiency test should be removed from the naturalisation process, you can contact the Latvian embassy in Dublin, http://www.am.gov.lv/en/ireland/. The office is on Stephen's Green.

Mike 1972 · 19-02-2012 4:52pm

Given that non-Latvian speakers apparently constitute a minority in most parts of the country how is it necessary to resort to such measures in order to "get rid of Russian influence" (even if one buys into the notion that attempting to do so is a worthy endeavour) Surely the status of Russian as a minority language makes its decline within Latvia a probable eventuality anyway.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I support them in their efforts to rebuild a non-segregated society and get rid of Russian influence.

Ah the old "in order to make an omelette" doctrine. Ironically and alarmingly Stalinesque dont you think ?

born2bwild · 19-02-2012 4:55pm

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Not only did the Soviets collaborate with Nazi Germany in order to invade Latvia, within living memory, something they only admitted in 1989, hundreds of thousands of Latvians were deported or murdered by the Russians in the "Soviet Terror".

You can say what you like about Russians apparently being forced at gunpoint to work in Latvia, but sooner or later someone has to take some responsibility. Thankfully the Latvians are more enlightened than the Russians and aren't deporting or murdering anyone, but I support them in their efforts to rebuild a non-segregated society and get rid of Russian influence.

Honestly, people protesting about having to learn Latvian in Latvia with a history like that.

As an citizen of this state it offends me that some people don't make a serious effort to learn English properly.

There are many others who are even more offended by those who refuse to learn Irish.

I may be offended but I am not going to deny them basic political and social rights.

Take the example of Belgium: many Walloons can't speak Flemish and many Flemish can't speak French. These people are not suddenly deemed non-citizens.

Latvia is not the Soviet Union and I would rather live there than in Russia but the Latvians are wrong to deny votes and citizenship to nearly 300,000 people because they don't speak one of the two main languages in the country.

In this respect they are not building a fair society. What could be more segregated than a state that invents a category of non-citizen for those who do not speak one of the two main languages of the country.

The Latvians are spending too much time defining themselves as not Russian. They need to demand reparations from Moscow and do something about the injustice that their laws are inflicting hundreds of thousands of their own citizens - many of whom are not Russian at all!!!! (They're Ukrainians, Belorussians, Kazakhs, Georgians, Poles, Lithuanians, etc etc etc)

Take it up with Russia and let your own people get on with their lives.

Doc Ruby · 19-02-2012 4:55pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Given that non-Latvian speakers apparently constitute a minority in most parts of the country how is it necessary to resort to such measures in order to "get rid of Russian influence" (even if one buys into the notion that attempting to do so is a worthy endeavour) Surely the status of Russian as a minority language makes its decline within Latvia a probable eventuality anyway.

Ah the old "in order to make an omelette" doctrine. Ironically and alarmingly Stalinesque dont you think ?

Oh wait, I just spotted your location, any wonder you're defending imperialistic colonisers, hai thar nai.

born2bwild · 19-02-2012 4:58pm

Piglet1984 wrote: »

And should you wish to recommend to the government to Latvia that the Latvian language proficiency test should be removed from the naturalisation process, you can contact the Latvian embassy in Dublin, http://www.am.gov.lv/en/ireland/. The office is on Stephen's Green.

Ok, I will!

Paldies

Спасибо

Piglet1984 · 19-02-2012 4:59pm

born2bwild wrote: »

They need to demand reparations from Moscow and do something about the injustice that their laws are inflicting hundreds of thousands of their own citizens - many of whom are not Russian at all!!!! (They're Ukrainians, Belorussians, Kazakhs, Georgians, Poles, Lithuanians, etc etc etc)

Take it up with Russia and let your own people get on with their lives.

Latvia has and is demading reparations from Russia however Russia is not admitting that it ever occupied Latvia.

Latvian Ukrainians, Poles, Lithuanians etc voted against Russian as the 2nd language.

Doc Ruby · 19-02-2012 5:03pm

born2bwild wrote: »

Latvia is not the Soviet Union and I would rather live there than in Russia but the Latvians are wrong to deny votes and citizenship to nearly 300,000 people because they don't speak one of the two main languages in the country.

Many if not most European countries have a language requirement for citizenship. If these people can't be arsed to learn the Latvian language in Latvia, you'd have to question how much they value their position in that country.

born2bwild wrote: »

The Latvians are spending too much time defining themselves as not Russian.

Seriously? Have you any idea of the atrocities that have been going on over there over the last seventy years? This is the process of decolonisation, and its pretty much like it or lump it.

Fair play to the Lats, and long live Latvia.

Mike 1972 · 19-02-2012 5:13pm

Doc Ruby wrote: »

just spotted your location

Relevence ? :rolleyes:

Doc Ruby wrote: »

any wonder you're defending imperialistic colonisers

In the matter of the Soviet Union V's Latvia it seems insofar as one can colonise ones own (non)citizens to be very much an instance of new imperialistic colonisers for old.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Seriously? Have you any idea of the atrocities that have been going on over there over the last seventy years? This is the process of decolonisation

A graduate of the "two wrongs make a right" school of thought I see.

Doc Ruby · 19-02-2012 5:17pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

In the matter of the Soviet Union V's Latvia it seems insofar as one can colonise ones own (non)citizens to be very much an instance of new imperialistic colonisers for old.

So the Latvians are colonising themselves? You should take up teaching contortionism in the UN college of contortionism and warped logic.

Which is even more impressive given the way you blithely sailed past the obvious comparisons with England colonising the North of Ireland and the plantations which gave rise to the society that can proudly lay claim to the title of most racist place on earth.

Mike 1972 · 19-02-2012 5:21pm

Doc Ruby wrote: »

the title of most racist place on earth.

WTF ?

RimaNTSS · 19-02-2012 5:27pm

Hi! I am Latvian. I speak Latvian & Russian fluently, and have nothing against knowing Russian or any other language. I have lots of Russian-speaking friends and we can allways communicate, no probs. Referendum was to make Russian as second official State language, and that was too much. Of course I voted against it, my wife voted against, mother-in-law (was born and survived in Siberia during repatriation period of her parents) voted against, father-in-law (whose father was killed by Soviet regime) voted against etc. Just imagine how much we should pay for bureaucracy, and of course that money would be raised from additional taxes and lowering of income of everybody! In addition, if you travel back in time little bit more than 20 years, let’s say 70 years, than you can find out about occupation and several repatriation waves. Lots of Latvians just disappeared somewhere in Siberia. Soviet regime was also not so perfect time. And now they offer us do Russian as second official language! Next step would be to let Russian military bases to be located in country to protect Russian minorities! Our Language, folklore, education, national identity was beaten tortured and russified for long time and almost washed out.
BTW: Not so many Latvians enjoying this site, because (I do not know reason) it is impossible to open boards.ie within any of Latvian ISP. I use my German friend’s server to login.

Ellis Dee · 19-02-2012 6:05pm

I have visited Latvia only a few times, but spend a lot of time in its northern Baltic neighbour Estonia.

Before being too judgemental about the Latvians for their antipathy to the Russians and their language, people should know a little about the recent history of the three Baltic States. It is extremely disingenuous to compare Russian-speakers in Latvia to French-speakers in Switzerland, as one poster does; the latter have been in Switzerland as long as anyone else. :rolleyes:

After centuries within the Russian empire, the Baltic States became independent in 1918-19 and remained so until 1939, when Stalin demanded that they - and Finland - accept the protection of the Soviet Union and give him bases on their territory. The three Baltic States complied - realising that opposition would be quite futile - and only Finland refused, resulting in a surprise attack by the Red Army on 30 November 1939 and the death of about 106,000 Finns (along with 700,000 or so Soviets).:eek:

Meanwhile, the intelligentsia in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were liquidated or sent to Siberia, elections with only one party (guess which one!) participating were held and the three countries were incorporated into the Soviet Union at the "request" of the puppet governments that the Soviets had installed.

The three countries suffered further devastation in 1941-44, when the Germans occupied them and were again driven out.

The period until the collapse of the Soviet Union in the late 1980s saw a steady stream of Russians into the three countries, and lots more of the indigenous people being sent to Siberia. By 1990, nearly half the population of Latvia were ethnic Russians, and more than a third in Estonia.:)

Although the Soviet Union maintained a cosmetic pretence that the local cultures of these countries were being cherished and protected, in reality they were being killed using a tactic of a thousand pinpricks. I remember my wife and I trudging around Tallinn one December looking for Christmas or New Year's cards in Estonian, but none could be found. The same applied to maps of Estonia in Estonian. Worse, a typewriter with a Latin keyboard (suiting Estonian) could not be bought and a used one was worth its weight in gold. Machines with Cyrillic keyboards were available everywhere and quite inexpensive.:rolleyes:

Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians had to learn Russian, and now I see no reason why Russians should not learn the languages of the countries they live in. many of them are still a lot better off than they would be in Russia itself, since they do not belong to the New Russian oligarchy that creams off all the goodies there, otherwise they'd have fecked off back there long ago.:mad:

Latvian Referendum

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