The Hazards of Belief

Hotblack Desiato · 06-12-2014 7:44pm

This is great news. Instead of a collection, everyone who goes to mass tomorrow morning is getting a dividend

lazygal · 07-12-2014 11:16am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

This is great news. Instead of a collection, everyone who goes to mass tomorrow morning is getting a dividend

I might go myself if the church decided to give away its wealth.

Brian Shanahan · 07-12-2014 12:27pm

Kivaro wrote: »

One hazard of belief is that the vatican may forget where it has hidden the flock's money.

Some of the comments on the Indo article are funny:
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/hundreds-of-millions-found-tucked-away-in-the-vatican-30803648.html

That's the same Mr. Pell who was transferred out of Australia recently because his continuing attempts to cover up sex abuse scandals, claim victims were lying and finally claim the rcc was too poor to pay compensation had finally become too embarrasing for the vatican.

Hotblack Desiato · 15-12-2014 9:07pm

How the Taliban groom child suicide bombers

recedite · 15-12-2014 10:48pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/bishops-say-same-sex-marriage-would-be-grave-injustice-1.2024464

It is thought that today’s comments from church officials marks the opening salvo in a concerted effort to sway public opinion against same-sex marriages ahead of next year’s referendum. According to the latest Irish Times/Ipsos MRBI poll, 67 per cent of Irish people support the notion of same-sex marriage being constitutionally enshrined, with just 20 per cent of respondents opposed to such a move.

Looks like public opinion is strongly against them, and yet they feel compelled to fire the opening salvo. By the end of this campaign, they are going to be shown up as a bunch of bigoted and irrelevant dinosaurs.
I wonder if they feel like the chaps lining up at the start at the infamous Charge of the Light Brigade in Crimea, or maybe they feel like leaders of lemmings as the swarm approaches the proverbial cliff.

marienbad · 15-12-2014 10:55pm

recedite wrote: »

Looks like public opinion is strongly against them, and yet they feel compelled to fire the opening salvo. By the end of this campaign, they are going to be shown up as a bunch of bigoted and irrelevant dinosaurs.
I wonder if they feel like the chaps lining up at the start at the infamous Charge of the Light Brigade in Crimea, or maybe they feel like leaders of lemmings as the swarm approaches the proverbial cliff.

Don't b so sure , this will be a lot closer than you think . Remember everyone opposed to it will come out and vote , whereas those in favour won't.

Big fight ahead .

recedite · 15-12-2014 11:24pm

marienbad wrote: »

Remember everyone opposed to it will come out and vote , whereas those in favour won't.

But surely there is a stronger incentive to vote for those who feel they will gain some extra rights, and those who support equal rights in general.
For people opposed to same sex marriage, there is nothing that they lose if it comes to pass, except perhaps the feeling of self-righteousness. And if they switch at the last minute, and vote yes just to get onto the winning side, they can still hold onto that self-righteous feeling. Nobody likes being the loser caught on the wrong side of history, even if they haven't fully moved with the times in their heart.

marienbad · 15-12-2014 11:32pm

recedite wrote: »

But surely there is a stronger incentive to vote for those who feel they will gain some extra rights, and those who support equal rights in general.
For people opposed to same sex marriage, there is nothing that they lose if it comes to pass, except perhaps the feeling of self-righteousness. And if they switch at the last minute, and vote yes just to get onto the winning side, they can still hold onto that self-righteous feeling. Nobody likes being the loser caught on the wrong side of history, even if they haven't fully moved with the times in their heart.

You are being reasonable and logical - both irrelevancies to the no side . Why would they oppose it now when it does absolutely no harm to them ?

This is about entrenched beliefs and those people tend to vote , the liberal crowd less so .Why do you think the Republicans control both houses in the US ? Because they get out their vote .

Brian Shanahan · 16-12-2014 12:06am

marienbad wrote: »

You are being reasonable and logical - both irrelevancies to the no side . Why would they oppose it now when it does absolutely no harm to them ?

This is about entrenched beliefs and those people tend to vote , the liberal crowd less so .Why do you think the Republicans control both houses in the US ? Because they get out their vote .

I honestly think you've got it backwards here on the gay marriage vote. This is one issue where people will come out and register their vote in favour.

Oh and there are three reasons why the Republicans control both house and senate, 1) the skew that naturally gives smaller more rural (and more conservative) states and districts representation over what their population should allow, 2) gerrymandering, and 3) vote stealing and other illegal behaviour.

The fact of the matter is that the offices which control elections and districting for elections in the US are political in nature, and the Republicans have long been far better at doing the nasty deeds in these areas than the Democrats (especially after they absorbed the Dixiecrats who had 100 years of experience stealing votes off black folks), allowing their small base to be overrepresented at government level. Electoral results in the US very rarely reflect the democratic will of the people.

jank · 16-12-2014 12:34am

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Oh and there are three reasons why the Republicans control both house and senate, 1) the skew that naturally gives smaller more rural (and more conservative) states and districts representation over what their population should allow, 2) gerrymandering, and 3) vote stealing and other illegal behaviour.

Oh please. Why do people always jump on the 'vote stealing' bandwagon. The Democrats got their asses handed to them because of the failing of the Obama administration, not because of any of the above. Anytime the GOP win an election we always hear the same thing about 'stealing the election'. Maybe just maybe the will of the American people was to get the GOP into both houses and nothing to do with wacky conspiracy theories.

marienbad · 16-12-2014 12:35am

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

I honestly think you've got it backwards here on the gay marriage vote. This is one issue where people will come out and register their vote in favour.

Oh and there are three reasons why the Republicans control both house and senate, 1) the skew that naturally gives smaller more rural (and more conservative) states and districts representation over what their population should allow, 2) gerrymandering, and 3) vote stealing and other illegal behaviour.

The fact of the matter is that the offices which control elections and districting for elections in the US are political in nature, and the Republicans have long been far better at doing the nasty deeds in these areas than the Democrats (especially after they absorbed the Dixiecrats who had 100 years of experience stealing votes off black folks), allowing their small base to be overrepresented at government level. Electoral results in the US very rarely reflect the democratic will of the people.

Lets wait and see then, we had equally strong poll results in previous social issues referenda but lost some and barely squeaked through on others .

The fact of the matter is the conservative vote is older and more committed to this issue and always show the highest turnout in elections .While the liberal vote are younger and more numerous but not the best at turning out to vote. If they were we would have a permanent social democratic majority in virtually every western nation.

What you say on the US is true up to a point - but it validates my point - the democratic vote simply does not turn out midterm , but come the general election Hilary will win in a canter because that election they do turn out .

But All I am saying is the polls can induce a false sense of complacency - this is not a done deal yet .

Hotblack Desiato · 16-12-2014 10:22am

TBH at this stage I think the more the RCC mouth off, the more it will encourage the Yes vote to turn out. These bishops do not represent the Ireland that the vast majority of people want to live in. The pensioner vote that helped bring in the 8th amendment, and made divorce in 1995 a close-run thing, is dead and the current generation of pensioners aren't all as conservative as they're made out to be. Voters under 50 are overwhelmingly in favour. So, RCC, keep mouthing off and encourage us to turn out to spite you

the_monkey · 16-12-2014 2:55pm

Another absolute tragedy in Pakistan today.

Mainly children too, just sickening.

MrPudding · 16-12-2014 6:07pm

the_monkey wrote: »

Another absolute tragedy in Pakistan today.

Mainly children too, just sickening.

Disgusting and awful.

Presumably this tragedy had nothing to do with Islam...? Been busy so have only seen twitter headlines.

MrP

Nodin · 16-12-2014 7:48pm

MrPudding wrote: »

Disgusting and awful.

Presumably this tragedy had nothing to do with Islam...? Been busy so have only seen twitter headlines.

MrP

Nothing to do with it. The Army went into some tribal area, this lot objected and decided to target a school for army families in retaliation.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30491435
How precisely they can justify targeting school kids is beyond me, but there ye go.

Nodin · 16-12-2014 8:57pm

"A three-year papal investigation into America’s 50,000 nuns, which inspired comparisons with the Inquisition, produced an unexpectedly benign report on Tuesday, containing somewhat tepid reprimands and calling for a careful review of their spiritual practices."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/16/vatican-inquiry-american-nuns-mild-rebuke-pope

Brian Shanahan · 16-12-2014 9:32pm

Nodin wrote: »

Nothing to do with it. The Army went into some tribal area, this lot objected and decided to target a school for army families in retaliation.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30491435
How precisely they can justify targeting school kids is beyond me, but there ye go.

At least now there is a chance for the army (especially the ISI, the army intelligence agency) to split the unholy alliance they've had with the Taliban, now that the Taliban have shown their willingness to bite the hand that feeds them.

The Black Oil · 18-12-2014 10:39pm

the_monkey wrote: »

Another absolute tragedy in Pakistan today.

Mainly children too, just sickening.

'My son was my dream. My dream has been killed.'
Source

What a loss.

robindch · 22-12-2014 11:51am

The Order of Franciscans Minor, aka the Franciscans, appear to have run into some serious financial trouble. No news at this time on exactly what's happened, but the full text of the letter below suggests that the may be bankrupt and that the police have been called in to assist.

http://www.ofm.org/ofm/?p=8757

Franciscans wrote:

[...] First, the General Curia finds itself in grave, and I underscore ‘grave’ financial difficulty, with a significant burden of debt. Second, the systems of financial oversight and control for the management of the patrimony of the Order were either too weak or were compromised, thus limiting their effectiveness to guarantee responsible, transparent management. [...] Third, there appears to have taken place a number of questionable financial activities that were conducted by friars entrusted with the care of the patrimony of the Order without the full knowledge or consent of the former and current General Definitorium. Because of the scope and magnitude of these activities, they have placed the financial stability of the General Curia at grave risk. [...]

Hotblack Desiato · 22-12-2014 11:56am

Third, there appears to have taken place a number of questionable financial activities that were conducted by friars entrusted with the care of the patrimony of the Order without the full knowledge or consent of the former and current General Definitorium.

I'm sure that's incorrect, the money was just resting in their accounts.

Brian Shanahan · 22-12-2014 1:12pm

robindch wrote: »

The Order of Franciscans Minor, aka the Franciscans, appear to have run into some serious financial trouble. No news at this time on exactly what's happened, but the full text of the letter below suggests that the may be bankrupt and that the police have been called in to assist.

http://www.ofm.org/ofm/?p=8757

Second, the systems of financial oversight and control for the management of the patrimony of the Order were either too weak or were compromised, thus limiting their effectiveness to guarantee responsible, transparent management.

This to me looks like they were operating the same loose, financially irresponsible and fraudulent scams that the banks were doing before the crash, and have started doing again in the last few years.

But hey, what do you expect from the religion that gave us simony, and is still practising it in the form of mass cards (despite canon laws supposedly outlawing it).

kylith · 22-12-2014 3:21pm

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

This to me looks like they were operating the same loose, financially irresponsible and fraudulent scams that the banks were doing before the crash, and have started doing again in the last few years.

But hey, what do you expect from the religion that gave us simony, and is still practising it in the form of mass cards (despite canon laws supposedly outlawing it).

Mass cards are banned under canon law??? This is going to be news to The Mammy.

Brian Shanahan · 22-12-2014 4:26pm

kylith wrote: »

Mass cards are banned under canon law??? This is going to be news to The Mammy.

Well selling intercessions to god through the church is simony which was supposedly banned by various church councils from the Concordat of Worms on, and also one of the main gripes which caused Martin Luther to go off in his own direction.

And mass cards are selling intercessions to god through the church.

P.S. I'm not saying they're banned (they are obviously not), I'm just saying that if the rcc applied their own laws in any legitimate fashion they would be.

Absolam · 22-12-2014 4:37pm

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

P.S. I'm not saying they're banned (they are obviously not), I'm just saying that if the rcc applied their own laws in any legitimate fashion they would be.

I think it's more likely the RCC applies it's laws in an entirely legitimate fashion by its own lights, just not by yours. And in fairness, they are their own laws.... So they pretty much get to define what is a legitimate fashion.
P.S. You did say they're outlawed... Even though they are obviously not.

Hotblack Desiato · 22-12-2014 9:38pm

How daft is this.

Married priest replaces priest getting married

recedite · 22-12-2014 9:49pm

Provincials and Custodes in a number of the Franciscan Conferences also were provided with a brief, albeit incomplete, explanation of our situation and were requested to demonstrate their solidarity with the General Curia through prayer and in other significant ways....

Is he suggesting that prayer by itself is not significant?
Ah, I see the matter is clarified further on in the letter....

I ask of all Provincials and Custodes your understanding and for a financial contribution to help address the current situation

recedite · 22-12-2014 10:00pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

How daft is this.

Married priest replaces priest getting married

Fairly daft alright. But if he follows my cunning plan, Father Gay may get married and yet live to fight another Day.
The rules are set to allow the poaching of priests from a rival sect with tempting special offers, while not treating the existing priests so well.
Therefore Fr. Gay should decamp to the Anglicans for a while, and then re-convert to the RCC afterwards, taking along the wife and whatever sprogs he has produced, as extra converts to catholicism. That should make Rome happy, and who knows, he may even be able to displace Fr. Day and get his old job back.

Hotblack Desiato · 22-12-2014 10:30pm

'Canadian Philomenas' continue to fight for justice

Hotblack Desiato · 29-12-2014 8:54pm

Astrophysicist angers Christians with Christmas tweet

Astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson sparked an Internet supernova on Christmas Day when he took to Twitter to troll Christians.

“On this day long ago, a child was born who, by age 30, would transform the world,” the “Cosmos” host tweeted Thursday. “Happy Birthday Isaac Newton b. Dec 25, 1642.”

— Neil deGrasse Tyson (@neiltyson) December 25, 2014

The meteoric missive by the director of the Hayden Planetarium was retweeted more than 57,000 times and sparked plenty of vitriol.

Think the NY Post might be hyping this up just a tad? :rolleyes:

PopePalpatine · 29-12-2014 10:44pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Astrophysicist angers Christians with Christmas tweet

Think the NY Post might be hyping this up just a tad? :rolleyes:

They're owned by Rupert Murdoch, of course they're going to hype it up.

The Hazards of Belief

Comments