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Living abroad: right to vote in next referendum
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There is more to taxation than income tax. In any case that phrase "no representation without taxation" is an international, not uniquely Irish one, and it generally is taken to mean both an economic and social contribution.
why should an emigrant who has left Ireland 40 years ago have a say on national policy here? I would be more inclined to extend the franchise fully to residents but non citizens.0 -
Ok so basically what your saying is that the poor the unemployed, those with disabilities that prevent them from working the homeless etc all these people who don't pay income tax have to be kicked of the voting rolls and have their right to vote taken away from them.
Now so far your saying all the above Irish residents are not allowed vote. How about those who do pay some income tax but receive back more in benefits from the government. Do you want to take away their right to vote also?
To say I disagree with the above policy would be an understatement. We have massive problems with our democratic process as it is and the over centralisation of power for instance. But if we enacted your policy and kicked all those people off the voting rolls where do we stop. Is there going to be a certain level of tax or income required before your allowed to vote next.
Where did I say that? This is about granting non residents citizens the vote and nothing to do with resident citizens, who have a constitutional right to vote.
In my opinion instead of making our democracy less representative then it already is we need to look to expland it and encouraging the termendous potential that the many Irish born citizens living abroad hold is a positive way forward I believe. I feel that the different experiences and knowledge many emigrants have gained could be very valuable in helping rebuld our country in a positive way.
If they want a say in the running of a country they've abandoned, for whatever reasons, they have to make a contribution to it. I'd be happy with the granting of non citizen residents voting rights before I'd give them to non resident citizens0 -
I emigrated over six years ago.iwanttovote wrote: »I chose to emigrate five years ago due to an absence of the industry I wanted to work in. This does not suddenly stop me being Irish or stop all the important social/religious issues I grew up (and will face when coming back) any less significant.
Doing so did not suddenly stop me being Irish but it did stop all the important social/religious issues I grew up from being significant to me and it stopped me from being subject to the consequences of the decisions that I would supposedly have a say in if I did have a vote. Sure, could vote to leave the EU, or nationalize all industry or unify with the North, if I wanted to then, because if it goes horribly wrong, I won't have to deal with the consequences. The suckers in Ireland get to pay for my democratic right.
Being abroad also means that you lose touch with what it is to be resident in Ireland, you take with you the attitudes and knowledge of Ireland five years ago, and it would be foolish to say that those have evolved in tandem with those who are still living there. Whenever I return to visit, I'm shocked by how much things have changed - do you even know how much a liter of milk costs in Ireland anymore? I don't.
All before you ask yourself why should you have a vote? Just because you're a citizen? Well then everyone who had a grandfather who was a citizen, even though they may never even have stepped foot in Ireland would also have an equal say in the future of those who actually live there.
Or how long should this right to vote last? My aunt left Ireland 50 years ago. It's a foreign country to her now. Her German is better than her English. When do you call a spade a spade and finally admit that perhaps you're de facto more a citizen of the community you live in than the passport you hold? You say you'll return, but will you? Heard that before from people who after 20+ are still abroad.
And if reason won't sway you, perhaps self-interest might; or did you think you might be afforded such a right to vote without strings attached? What are the bets that with such a right to vote a duty to pay Irish taxes will also be introduced? I can see enthusiasm for non-resident democratic enfranchisement evaporating pretty quickly were that the case.
I can see the attraction for an émigré where it comes to having a vote. But ultimately, it's a selfish indulgence. You and I left to make a life elsewhere and to ask to still determine the lives of those you left behind is really just looking to have your cake and eat it.0 -
Where did I say that? This is about granting non residents citizens the vote and nothing to do with resident citizens, who have a constitutional right to vote.
Here is when you said that in response to iwanttovote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iwanttovote
Many emigrants had done so for years as well as copious amounts of other taxes. If you take a break from labouring at home to go and try something new, should all their previous financial contributions to the state be annulled until their point of return? The point is, I'm not referring to local elections where it may affect a particular residence in the short term. I'm referring to national referendums which shape the direction of the country in the long term. All Irish citizens should be allowed to determine the future of their country.
Your response:
Still think that if you want to vote after you've left the country there should be some responsibility on you to the country, by making it compulsory to pay income tax it means that people are contributing fully to the country.
Clearly based on what you have said above you are saying that as well as Irish born citizens living abroad the poor, the unempolyed and those with disabilities or who cannot work for some reason should all be denied the right to vote.
Again I would ask are you then also in favour of taking away the right to vote from those who receive more in benefits then they pay in taxes as well as taking the right to vote away from all those above?0 -
If they want a say in the running of a country they've abandoned, for whatever reasons, they have to make a contribution to it. I'd be happy with the granting of non citizen residents voting rights before I'd give them to non resident citizens[/QUOTE]
First off can we please stop with such pejorative terms. Secondly I would say that Irish born citizens have made many contributions that have benefited Ireland and continue to do so as shown by the Global Irish Economic Forum or the Global Irish Initiative.
To quote Eammon Gilmore:
‘Engagement with our diaspora is of enormous importance for Ireland. Together, we have built economic links resulting in trade, investment and tourism. Our engagement has played an important role in efforts to bring a lasting peace to this island. It has also deepened ties of culture and kinship.0 -
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The Corinthian wrote: »I emigrated over six years ago.
Doing so did not suddenly stop me being Irish but it did stop all the important social/religious issues I grew up from being significant to me and it stopped me from being subject to the consequences of the decisions that I would supposedly have a say in if I did have a vote. Sure, could vote to leave the EU, or nationalize all industry or unify with the North, if I wanted to then, because if it goes horribly wrong, I won't have to deal with the consequences. The suckers in Ireland get to pay for my democratic right.
Being abroad also means that you lose touch with what it is to be resident in Ireland, you take with you the attitudes and knowledge of Ireland five years ago, and it would be foolish to say that those have evolved in tandem with those who are still living there. Whenever I return to visit, I'm shocked by how much things have changed - do you even know how much a liter of milk costs in Ireland anymore? I don't.
All before you ask yourself why should you have a vote? Just because you're a citizen? Well then everyone who had a grandfather who was a citizen, even though they may never even have stepped foot in Ireland would also have an equal say in the future of those who actually live there.
Or how long should this right to vote last? My aunt left Ireland 50 years ago. It's a foreign country to her now. Her German is better than her English. When do you call a spade a spade and finally admit that perhaps you're de facto more a citizen of the community you live in than the passport you hold? You say you'll return, but will you? Heard that before from people who after 20+ are still abroad.
And if reason won't sway you, perhaps self-interest might; or did you think you might be afforded such a right to vote without strings attached? What are the bets that with such a right to vote a duty to pay Irish taxes will also be introduced? I can see enthusiasm for non-resident democratic enfranchisement evaporating pretty quickly were that the case.
I can see the attraction for an émigré where it comes to having a vote. But ultimately, it's a selfish indulgence. You and I left to make a life elsewhere and to ask to still determine the lives of those you left behind is really just looking to have your cake and eat it.
What I have been suggesting is the vote be extended to Irish born citizens living abroad. We have many talanted and successful people with much to offer Ireland who we should be encouraging to play a role in building a positive and prosperous Ireland. We can easily do this by having say in the Dail a 3 seat constituency for them which thus gives those Irish born citizens living abraod a voice but in no way distorts things. I would also say they should be allowed to vote in presidential elections and national referendums.
Your taxation argument is a red herring. As I responded eleswhere if paying income tax was a requirement for voting then a very large chunk of the current eligible electorate would be having the right to vote taken away. The poor, the unemployed, the sick or unable to work due to disability etc. Plus then there would be the issue of do you then take away the right to vote from those who receive more in welfare from the government then they pay in taxes. The above is not the kind of direction I or I would guess the majority of Irish people except maybe some of the more wealthy would want to go.
I am not suggesting that anybody with some Irish heritage be allowed to vote. I am and have consistently said Irish born citizens living abroad.
Finally the right to vote has nothing to do with a persons knowledge of either complex or simple basic everyday issues. If there was some kind of test of knowledge required for someone to be allowed to vote then there is a heck of lot of Irish people currently on the voting rolls who would be getting kicked off!0 -
And those Irish who happened to have been born abroad but grew up in Ireland? Or those who just happened to be in Ireland when they were born but otherwise grew up elsewhere? Citizens naturalized through residency, who may later leave? Had you considered any these scenarios and how full of holes your criteria is?What I have been suggesting is the vote be extended to Irish born citizens living abroad.
Indeed, I would not have a vote according to it. I was born abroad, and although I have an Irish mother and grew up and did almost all my schooling in Ireland, according to you, some guy who happened to be born in Ireland then emigrated permanently a week later, thus living almost their entire life abroad, would have the vote. Daft.
I have multiple citizenship's and one of them has such a 'special constituency' set up I get to vote in. Let me assure you, it's a joke.We have many talanted and successful people with much to offer Ireland who we should be encouraging to play a role in building a positive and prosperous Ireland. We can easily do this by having say in the Dail a 3 seat constituency for them which thus gives those Irish born citizens living abraod a voice but in no way distorts things. I would also say they should be allowed to vote in presidential elections and national referendums.
And, BTW, we already have voting rights for Irish citizens abroad - for the Seanad university seats. So if it means this much to you, go get yourself a degree.
I'm afraid your logic is flawed. If you have no income then you don't pay income tax, regardless of where you live. The US already operate in this manner; non resident citizens are only libel to pay income tax, but libel only means that you have to pay if you qualify to do so. So your rebuttal is the red herring, not the possibility of expatriate taxation which is already practiced by a small number of nations.Your taxation argument is a red herring. As I responded eleswhere if paying income tax was a requirement for voting then a very large chunk of the current eligible electorate would be having the right to vote taken away.
Which, as I pointed out above, is not a terribly well thought out criteria.I am not suggesting that anybody with some Irish heritage be allowed to vote. I am and have consistently said Irish born citizens living abroad.
The right to vote is the enfranchisement of the citizen to have a say in their community. Lack of knowledge is not a reason to deny this, but it is a telling sign of the flaw in your logic as it betrays the fact that they are not actually part of that community.Finally the right to vote has nothing to do with a persons knowledge of either complex or simple basic everyday issues. If there was some kind of test of knowledge required for someone to be allowed to vote then there is a heck of lot of Irish people currently on the voting rolls who would be getting kicked off!
What ultimately should deny such a right is that you or I do not have to deal with the consequences of such democratic choices. We won't have to see our taxes hiked up because we might have repeatedly voted in Fianna Fail governments who then screwed up the economy. Actually, for us the incentive would be to screw up the economy - that way we can pick up a holiday home for when we visit on the cheap.
There's an idea - I might vote Sinn Fein just so I can watch them implement their Mickey Mouse economic policies, send Ireland back to the eighties or worse and then I can pick up a nice five-bed for 40 thousand Punt Nua, which will be valued at 0.20 Swiss Francs. Nice.0 -
And those Irish who happened to have been born abroad but grew up in Ireland? Or those who just happened to be in Ireland when they were born but otherwise grew up elsewhere? Citizens naturalized through residency, who may later leave? Had you considered any these scenarios and how full of holes your criteria is?
Yes I have indeed considered those criteria. I was using the criteria I mentioned as a starting off point. There are certainly other situations that would need to be looked at and decisions made on such as those you describe above no doubt about it.I have multiple citizenship's and one of them has such a 'special constituency' set up I get to vote in. Let me assure you, it's a joke.
Well your entitled to your opinion certainly as I am mine. I disagree and believe that Irelands emigrant situation makes this a very attractive way of engaging our diaspora and giving them a voice and encouraging them to play a signifiacnt role in building a better and more positive Ireland going forward.And, BTW, we already have voting rights for Irish citizens abroad - for the Seanad university seats. So if it means this much to you, go get yourself a degree.
I do have a degree. But not all colleges in Ireland get to vote in Seanad elections. Besides the Seanad is a whole other issue really. That body needs to be reformed as part of reforming our overall system of government which is too centralised in terms of power in my opinion.I'm afraid your logic is flawed. If you have no income then you don't pay income tax, regardless of where you live. The US already operate in this manner; non resident citizens are only libel to pay income tax, but libel only means that you have to pay if you qualify to do so. So your rebuttal is the red herring, not the possibility of expatriate taxation which is already practiced by a small number of nations.
Well again we will disagree. Taxation is a red herring. The idea that a persons right to vote is dependant on them paying income tax is a dangerous slippery slope back to the days of property rights etc when it comes to voting rights. When it comes to the poor, the unemployed and others who receive more welfare then they pay in income taxes for instance they all can and do earn income. How many people actually earn zero income?The right to vote is the enfranchisement of the citizen to have a say in their community. Lack of knowledge is not a reason to deny this, but it is a telling sign of the flaw in your logic as it betrays the fact that they are not actually part of that community.
No you missed my point completely it seems. I was saying there are plently of people living in Ireland currently eligible to vote who waould have to be kicked off the voting rolls if a certain test of knowledge was required to be allowed to vote. In todays world with the internet and information being so easily available there is no problem for an Irish person living abroad to keep up to date with topics at home.0 -
To quote Eammon Gilmore:
‘Engagement with our diaspora is of enormous importance for Ireland. Together, we have built economic links resulting in trade, investment and tourism. Our engagement has played an important role in efforts to bring a lasting peace to this island. It has also deepened ties of culture and kinship.
Is that the same Eamon Gilmore who wants to undermine democracy via gender quotas?0 -
Then how about you come back here when you've considered those, and other, criteria properly and come back with something more than a half baked idea? The onus is on you to sell this to the rest of us, after all, and if even another expat isn't buying it, it doesn't bode well for it's viability.Yes I have indeed considered those criteria. I was using the criteria I mentioned as a starting off point. There are certainly other situations that would need to be looked at and decisions made on such as those you describe above no doubt about it.
Except my opinion is based on direct practical experience, while yours is based on... nothing.Well your entitled to your opinion certainly as I am mine. I disagree and believe that Irelands emigrant situation makes this a very attractive way of engaging our diaspora and giving them a voice and encouraging them to play a signifiacnt role in building a better and more positive Ireland going forward.
As I said, if it's so important to you get a degree... from such a college.I do have a degree. But not all colleges in Ireland get to vote in Seanad elections.
I already addressed this ("non resident citizens are only libel to pay income tax, but libel only means that you have to pay if you qualify to do so"), so your'e either intentionally ignoring it or you don't know how it works.Well again we will disagree. Taxation is a red herring. The idea that a persons right to vote is dependant on them paying income tax is a dangerous slippery slope back to the days of property rights etc when it comes to voting rights. When it comes to the poor, the unemployed and others who receive more welfare then they pay in income taxes for instance they all can and do earn income. How many people actually earn zero income?
And I say "how it works" because it already exists. It's not theory. The US requires it's citizens to pay US federal income tax even if resident. Please inform yourself on how this system actually works, before claiming it's some sort of 'red herring'.
No, your point is based upon your erroneous understanding of how expatriate taxation works, which has nothing to do with only being eligible to vote if you pay tax.No you missed my point completely it seems.
And even if unemployed, someone in Ireland will have to suffer the consequences of their democratic choices that those abroad need not. It is idiotic to think that tax is the only possible one.
I also note that you've concentrated on (unsuccessfully) rebutting only the taxation issue, which was really only the icing on the cake. You've actually failed to rebut anything else.
In short, you've not thought through what you're arguing for, seem to be ignorant of how other countries who have expatriate taxation and/or voting work and appear to be basing your argument for on some dubious ulterior benefit.
No sale.0 -
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Corinthian no onus on me at all to have to prove anything. If your not interested in encouraging Irish emigrants to vote and become involved and enganged in rebuilding Ireland fine no problem for me. That is your view point and your entitled to it. I simply have a different view point and believe there is much to be gained.
Beyond that I can see you have very strong and determined views against Irish emigrants voting and I respect that. I do think it is unfortunate that some of your replies toward me were rather disrespectful though.0 -
Yes I have indeed considered those criteria. I was using the criteria I mentioned as a starting off point. There are certainly other situations that would need to be looked at and decisions made on such as those you describe above no doubt about it.
Well your entitled to your opinion certainly as I am mine. I disagree and believe that Irelands emigrant situation makes this a very attractive way of engaging our diaspora and giving them a voice and encouraging them to play a signifiacnt role in building a better and more positive Ireland going forward.
I do have a degree. But not all colleges in Ireland get to vote in Seanad elections. Besides the Seanad is a whole other issue really. That body needs to be reformed as part of reforming our overall system of government which is too centralised in terms of power in my opinion.
Well again we will disagree. Taxation is a red herring. The idea that a persons right to vote is dependant on them paying income tax is a dangerous slippery slope back to the days of property rights etc when it comes to voting rights. When it comes to the poor, the unemployed and others who receive more welfare then they pay in income taxes for instance they all can and do earn income. How many people actually earn zero income?
No you missed my point completely it seems. I was saying there are plently of people living in Ireland currently eligible to vote who waould have to be kicked off the voting rolls if a certain test of knowledge was required to be allowed to vote. In todays world with the internet and information being so easily available there is no problem for an Irish person living abroad to keep up to date with topics at home.
Completely agree with you, mate. I dislike the rhetoric that if you aren't *currently* paying income tax you should have no voice. No every vote is about spending the people's PAYE. People seem to have ignored the OPs question, he's looking for a way to vote in the LGBT referendum next year. Clearly this is a social issue more so than a financial one. I have family who left Ireland due to the legal status of gays. I'm sure this is important to them too.
Besides, even if it *were* about financial things. Maybe people have already paid something before they left? Maybe they intend to return and pay in the future? It's ridiculous that when you say this, people on this forum attack you and say "well, should we give the vote to those with Irish passports who've barely set foot in the country?" Pointing out corner cases is a stupid argument. People should be grateful that the Irish who left are still interested in their home and want to participate.
Just because *one* poster here doesn't give a f*ck about the country since he left doesn't mean he speaks for everybody. Fair enough if he feels more close to his new culture and government, but many of us hold our nation dear to our hearts, want the best for it, and are sad that we had little choice but to leave.
Fair play to you and don't let the others discourage you.0 -
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airportwater wrote: »Completely agree with you, mate. I dislike the rhetoric that if you aren't *currently* paying income tax you should have no voice. No every vote is about spending the people's PAYE. People seem to have ignored the OPs question, he's looking for a way to vote in the LGBT referendum next year. Clearly this is a social issue more so than a financial one. I have family who left Ireland due to the legal status of gays. I'm sure this is important to them too.
Besides, even if it *were* about financial things. Maybe people have already paid something before they left? Maybe they intend to return and pay in the future? It's ridiculous that when you say this, people on this forum attack you and say "well, should we give the vote to those with Irish passports who've barely set foot in the country?" Pointing out corner cases is a stupid argument. People should be grateful that the Irish who left are still interested in their home and want to participate.
Just because *one* poster here doesn't give a f*ck about the country since he left doesn't mean he speaks for everybody. Fair enough if he feels more close to his new culture and government, but many of us hold our nation dear to our hearts, want the best for it, and are sad that we had little choice but to leave.
Fair play to you and don't let the others discourage you.
Thanks for the support. We have many very talanted people who have accomplished a lot in their careers since leaving Ireland. I for one am someone who strongly believes we should be doing everything to encourage them to participate in building a better Ireland for all of us not just for a certain elite and I say that in as much a social sense as an econmoic one.0 -
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This is a discussion board, not your private soapbox where you can preach whatever nonsense you feel like preaching without being questioned, and as you are the one arguing for the changing the current status quo, the onus is on you to make an argument for doing so.Corinthian no onus on me at all to have to prove anything. If your not interested in encouraging Irish emigrants to vote and become involved and enganged in rebuilding Ireland fine no problem for me. That is your view point and your entitled to it. I simply have a different view point and believe there is much to be gained.
And you clearly have no idea what I've been discussing as I, being an Irish emigrant, I certainly do not have views 'against' Irish emigrants and to suggest that I do because I do not agree with you is just a cheap dismissal. I've stated why it's a bad idea, on a number of levels. You tried, unsuccessfully, to dismiss this and so now you're turning to the "he must hate Irish emigrants" argument which is a bit pathetic, and ironic, TBH.Beyond that I can see you have very strong and determined views against Irish emigrants voting and I respect that. I do think it is unfortunate that some of your replies toward me were rather disrespectful though.
You've come here and proposed a half-baked idea, full of flaws that you've refused to address (although you acknowledge they exist) and have ignored the fundamental reasons I gave why such representation is a bad idea to begin with. If you don't want to defend your views, all well and good, but then while you may be entitled to them, you are not entitled to have them respected. That's how democracy works.
No one argued for that.airportwater wrote: »I dislike the rhetoric that if you aren't *currently* paying income tax you should have no voice.0 -
The Corinthian wrote: »This is a discussion board, not your private soapbox where you can preach whatever nonsense you feel like preaching without being questioned, and as you are the one arguing for the changing the current status quo, the onus is on you to make an argument for doing so.
And you clearly have no idea what I've been discussing as I, being an Irish emigrant, I certainly do not have views 'against' Irish emigrants and to suggest that I do because I do not agree with you is just a cheap dismissal. I've stated why it's a bad idea, on a number of levels. You tried, unsuccessfully, to dismiss this and so now you're turning to the "he must hate Irish emigrants" argument which is a bit pathetic, and ironic, TBH.
You've come here and proposed a half-baked idea, full of flaws that you've refused to address (although you acknowledge they exist) and have ignored the fundamental reasons I gave why such representation is a bad idea to begin with. If you don't want to defend your views, all well and good, but then while you may be entitled to them, you are not entitled to have them respected. That's how democracy works.
No one argued for that.
It is quite sad how angry and disrespectful of anothers opinions you are. But that is what it is.
Yes this is a discusion board and I enjoy seeing what others think and say on here. I have been very clear in what I believe. I have acknowledged that who exactly would be entitled to vote is an issue that would need to be looked at and worked on. I used Irish citizens living abroad as a starting point and I think they would form the core of those given emigrant voting rights.
I am aware your an Irish emigrant. My opinion on your views were quite clearly that you were against votes for Irish emigrants which you have consistently shown your strongly against. So cut out the attempt to suggest that my statements were you hate emigrants. I clearly have different beliefs in that I think Irish emigrants have much to contribute to our country and giving them some forms of voting rights is a good way to encourage them to become more engaged in Ireland. Just because you do not feel it is something positive in another country that does not mean it is not something that can be very positive for Ireland.
I have over a number of posts given my opinions on Irish emigrant voting rights on and on why I think they are positive.
Clearly you will never respect my views and that is fine I have no problem with that. I would only suggest it might be better to be less disrespecful in at least how you address someone else. But thats your call whether you want to do that or not.0 -
In the recent Scottish referendum any scots living South of the border couldn't vote, I see this as fair.
If you want to change the country you need to live in that country, don't be moaning from across the sea because you upped and left, many didn't leave and today are still fighting to get the country of its knees.
It's only right that those who stayed and live in Ireland get a vote. Those who left made their bed, nobody is denying them a vote, but they have to be living here to have that vote.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »In the recent Scottish referendum any scots living South of the border couldn't vote, I see this as fair.
If you want to change the country you need to live in that country, don't be moaning from across the sea because you upped and left, many didn't leave and today are still fighting to get the country of its knees.
It's only right that those who stayed and live in Ireland get a vote. Those who left made their bed, nobody is denying them a vote, but they have to be living here to have that vote.
I fully agree with this and with Corinthian on this.
Those who left since 2008 for a better life haven't had to put their shoulder to the wheel to help this country recover. Why should they have a vote in our future?0 -
And ironically it is rather sad and disrespectful of you to ignore the opinions of others, which is what you have done here.It is quite sad how angry and disrespectful of anothers opinions you are. But that is what it is.
And what was "you have very strong and determined views against Irish emigrants" supposed to mean other than I am anti-emigrants, so with due respects, you're not being very honest.So cut out the attempt to suggest that my statements were you hate emigrants.
Except you've not really argued that we would have much to contribute beyond claiming that we have much to contribute in the vaguest of terms. Simultaneously you've ignored arguments against, or seemingly perhaps not even understood them.I have over a number of posts given my opinions on Irish emigrant voting rights on and on why I think they are positive.
You failed to address the problems with your system of deciding who gets the vote in the first place. You've ignored the point made on how once you leave Ireland you begin to lose touch with what it going on in Ireland, compared to someone actually living in Ireland. And you've completely blanked the point on how those of us abroad would be voting for policies that will not affect us - if we vote in a government that will cut spending to the bone, it won't make a difference to us. Raise taxes? Not our problem. Vote against abortion? No problem, we probably have it anyway where we live.
We would be able to happily sit in our foreign host happy in the knowledge that our decisions will not affect us if they're wrong or mistaken. Instead those poor suckers 'back home' get to pay if they are. How do you stand on having a right to vote without any responsibility for the consiquences?
Or would you like to pay Irish tax as well as the tax of your host country, like Americans do, when abroad? Not a 'red herring' I'm afraid, because it's something that's already practiced and could be implemented on Irish citizens abroad - the ultimate insult from a society with a tradition of exporting it's employment problems.
You've ignored all these, and other, points and all you're doing is repeating your 'opinions'. Fine, but don't expect those opinions to be taken seriously by anyone paying attention to what you're saying.0 -
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I fully agree with this and with Corinthian on this.
Those who left since 2008 for a better life haven't had to put their shoulder to the wheel to help this country recover. Why should they have a vote in our future?
That's a bit short sighted. I did graduate school abroad in a topic not possible to study in Ireland. I'm hoping I can generate some industry back in Ireland when I come back within the next two years.
The point is that not every vote is the same. I don't feel it necessary to participate in local elections because the effects will be short term. Referendums are extremely long term and it seems foolish to ostracise citizens because they went abroad to get vital experience.
Which is better? Leveraging the experience and wisdom of the diaspora in order to build a better nation together? Or shunning them for leaving Ireland even though they clearly love their country and want to participate. Common sense should dictate that anybody living abroad who is so keen to vote probably has the best intentions for their homeland. A policy of returning to Ireland to vote could even be used to weed out the very serious from the half-hearted. Either way, the point is that we could build a better society by inclusion not exclusion.0 -
The Corinthian wrote: »And ironically it is rather sad and disrespectful of you to ignore the opinions of others, which is what you have done here.
And what was "you have very strong and determined views against Irish emigrants" supposed to mean other than I am anti-emigrants, so with due respects, you're not being very honest.
Except you've not really argued that we would have much to contribute beyond claiming that we have much to contribute in the vaguest of terms. Simultaneously you've ignored arguments against, or seemingly perhaps not even understood them.
You failed to address the problems with your system of deciding who gets the vote in the first place. You've ignored the point made on how once you leave Ireland you begin to lose touch with what it going on in Ireland, compared to someone actually living in Ireland. And you've completely blanked the point on how those of us abroad would be voting for policies that will not affect us - if we vote in a government that will cut spending to the bone, it won't make a difference to us. Raise taxes? Not our problem. Vote against abortion? No problem, we probably have it anyway where we live.
We would be able to happily sit in our foreign host happy in the knowledge that our decisions will not affect us if they're wrong or mistaken. Instead those poor suckers 'back home' get to pay if they are. How do you stand on having a right to vote without any responsibility for the consiquences?
Or would you like to pay Irish tax as well as the tax of your host country, like Americans do, when abroad? Not a 'red herring' I'm afraid, because it's something that's already practiced and could be implemented on Irish citizens abroad - the ultimate insult from a society with a tradition of exporting it's employment problems.
You've ignored all these, and other, points and all you're doing is repeating your 'opinions'. Fine, but don't expect those opinions to be taken seriously by anyone paying attention to what you're saying.
You didn't make any arguments. You basically told eire4 "I moved abroad. I don't care about voting in Ireland. Therefore it's a non-issue"
The whole 'who gets a vote' is a non-issue. Should there be a rare scenario in which somebody has citizenship whilst never having set foot in Ireland, what are the chance they are actively interested in Irish politics? Do you think this situation is a representative of a majority? Or could it be the 250,000 youths that left in the past five years for lack of opportunity? Do you think they've all suddenly forgotten that they are Irish? Maybe you have and you've already said that you don't want to participate in Ireland's future. Fine. Speak for yourself. Don't speak for the rest of us. Thanks0 -
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Fred Swanson wrote: »This post has been deleted.
Show us a significant statistic then (and not a strawman argument please)0 -
How is giving the diaspora the vote going to leverage anything? Inteed, wouldn't inciting the diaspora to return, so we actually contribute to the Irish economy, not be a better way of leveraging that knowledge?iwanttovote wrote: »Leveraging the experience and wisdom of the diaspora in order to build a better nation together?
Common sense only dictates that anybody living abroad who is so keen to vote probably want the right to vote - whether it is in the best intentions or self interest is another matter. Or are you suggesting that anyone who votes has always the best intentions?Common sense should dictate that anybody living abroad who is so keen to vote probably has the best intentions for their homeland.
The only exclusion I'm seeing in this discussion is how points made against are being repeatedly ignored.A policy of returning to Ireland to vote could even be used to weed out the very serious from the half-hearted. Either way, the point is that we could build a better society by inclusion not exclusion.
I've that's what you believe you read, I'm afraid you're illiterate. Read what I posted, not what your knee-jerk indignation interpreted.iwanttovote wrote: »You didn't make any arguments. You basically told eire4 "I moved abroad. I don't care about voting in Ireland. Therefore it's a non-issue"
Rare case? Problem is that neither you or eire4 have thought any of this through so how would you know how rare it would be or not? You don't even know who should have the vote or not without making a mess of things. All you seem to know is that you want to live abroad and still have a say in somewhere where you don't live anymore.The whole 'who gets a vote' is a non-issue. Should there be a rare scenario in which somebody has citizenship whilst never having set foot in Ireland, what are the chance they are actively interested in Irish politics?
All I've heard so far is vague talk of benefit, and TBH it all sounds more like some want the right to vote and are using an undefined benefit argument to justify it.
Then return to Ireland and vote all you want. Otherwise stop whinging that you can't have your cake and eat it.Do you think they've all suddenly forgotten that they are Irish? Maybe you have and you've already said that you don't want to participate in Ireland's future. Fine. Speak for yourself. Don't speak for the rest of us. Thanks0 -
I've really not got the time to do this, but a quick check on Wiki throws up the following, unless someone has a better source:iwanttovote wrote: »Show us a significant statistic then (and not a strawman argument please)"The Government of Ireland, define the Irish diaspora as all persons of Irish nationality who habitually reside outside of the island of Ireland. This includes Irish citizens who have emigrated abroad and their children, who are Irish citizens by descent under Irish law. It also includes their grandchildren in cases where they were registered as Irish citizens in the Foreign Births Register held in every Irish diplomatic mission. (Great-grandchildren and even more distant descendants of Irish immigrants may also register as Irish citizens, but only if the parent through whom they claim descent was registered as a citizen before the descendant in question was born.) Under this legal definition, the Irish diaspora is considerably smaller—some 3 million persons, of whom 1.2 million are Irish-born emigrants. This is still a large ratio for any country."
Oddly enough, I suspect most of these may never have been in Ireland. We might have noticed an extra 1.8 million.0 -
How is giving the diaspora the vote going to leverage anything? Inteed, wouldn't inciting the diaspora to return, so we actually contribute to the Irish economy, not be a better way of leveraging that knowledge?
This is extremely short sighted on your part. The Irish who worked abroad in the professional sector are going to contribute to the economy far more significantly than had they stayed. If you want to think short term with immediate rewards, suit yourself but I'm glad you're not in charge of the country then. I think the diaspora's experience will be vital to rejuvenating the economy in the future. Frankly, I don't want to oust those people now or when they return. I also want that they have a say in the future of their country LONG TERM. I can't blame you if your cataracts won't let you see past tomorrow though.The Corinthian wrote: »Rare case? Problem is that neither you or eire4 have thought any of this through so how would you know how rare it would be or not? You don't even know who should have the vote or not without making a mess of things. All you seem to know is that you want to live abroad and still have a say in somewhere where you don't live anymore.
No, it seems you haven't thought this through. If you're are ardently against re-enfrachising Irish living abroad because, as you claim, there are so so many Irish citizens who never set foot in the country, why not make a compelling argument? What polls have you sourced that claim that there are millions of foreigners with Irish passports trigger happy to muck up the country? If you invent a boogyman story like that, you're the one who should be convincing us otherwise it's just a case of Russell's teapot.Then return to Ireland and vote all you want. Otherwise stop whinging that you can't have your cake and eat it.
I intend to return, which is exactly why I want to be fine on my return. A few years abroad versus the rest of my life at home. Hmmm...0 -
The Corinthian wrote: »I've really not got the time to do this, but a quick check on Wiki throws up the following, unless someone has a better source:"The Government of Ireland, define the Irish diaspora as all persons of Irish nationality who habitually reside outside of the island of Ireland. This includes Irish citizens who have emigrated abroad and their children, who are Irish citizens by descent under Irish law. It also includes their grandchildren in cases where they were registered as Irish citizens in the Foreign Births Register held in every Irish diplomatic mission. (Great-grandchildren and even more distant descendants of Irish immigrants may also register as Irish citizens, but only if the parent through whom they claim descent was registered as a citizen before the descendant in question was born.) Under this legal definition, the Irish diaspora is considerably smaller—some 3 million persons, of whom 1.2 million are Irish-born emigrants. This is still a large ratio for any country."
Oddly enough, I suspect most of these may never have been in Ireland. We might have noticed an extra 1.8 million.
I'm missing the part in which these people are actively meddling in Irish politics. Please, just highlight that part for us.0 -
I see no reason to prevent them from voting in some situations. There is a huge difference between a graduate in the US for a year gaining experience and a person who's been there 20 years and has started a family. Non Irish citizens can vote in some things as it is.
People sure like to make themselves feel special that they are martyrs who stayed behind to help rebuild the country as if it was completely by choice.0 -
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What part of anything you wrote above requires that expats abroad have the vote?iwanttovote wrote: »This is extremely short sighted on your part. The Irish who worked abroad in the professional sector are going to contribute to the economy far more significantly than had they stayed. If you want to think short term with immediate rewards, suit yourself but I'm glad you're not in charge of the country then. I think the diaspora's experience will be vital to rejuvenating the economy in the future. Frankly, I don't want to oust those people now or when they return. I also want that they have a say in the future of their country LONG TERM. I can't blame you if your cataracts won't let you see past tomorrow though.
Actually, I gave numerous reasons. You've yet to give a single reason why extending the vote would bring any benefit.No, it seems you haven't thought this through. If you're are ardently against re-enfrachising Irish living abroad because, as you claim, there are so so many Irish citizens who never set foot in the country, why not make a compelling argument?
And when you do return, I'll take that seriously. Reality is that I've known too many who swear blind they'll return and 20 years own they've not.I intend to return, which is exactly why I want to be fine on my return. A few years abroad versus the rest of my life at home. Hmmm...
Are you serious? First you question that such people exist, then when your bluff is called you change your tack and demand that someone prove that these people who cannot presently meddle in Irish politics without the vote (although groups like NORAID did their best) have done so? Straw man?iwanttovote wrote: »I'm missing the part in which these people are actively meddling in Irish politics. Please, just highlight that part for us.
Back up some of the nonsense you've been coming out with instead. Why is the vote necessary for these undefined benefits you and eire4 keep on going on about?0
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