Kilkenny Football - ??

eroo · 03-03-2011 2:16am

timogen wrote: »

Maybe not forced but in the very second post on this thread which eroo also thanked i might add,had in if if some of the talented hurlers that dont make it on to the senior panel be asked to players for the footballers.How do you people know they weren't asked and turned it down.
Also why should the players who want to play football for there county be denied?
They might be out of there depth but they want to play the game and that's the level they have to play.

Yourself and a few others are great at generlisations here.

That point regarding hurlers who never make it onto panel be asked to play for their county in football, is only one of several points made in that post. I thanked that post because I agreed with it's primary points i.e. getting outside expertise and KK board doing something about the problem.

To think that twice now someone has highlighted the fact I thanked a post as if it somehow had a bearing on my opinion is laughable.

Stop going round in circles saying everyone else is doing the same and neglecting one of the codes. That may be true, but nowhere near as shameful as the KK football team.

I may as well address this once and for all..

The Cavan hurlers are atrocious because there are only 8 clubs who play hurling, with Mullahoran having won for the last 21 years!!! The Cavan CB and the GAA's hurling board have a lot to answer for and serious work is needed. It is not surprising Cavan get hammered. It's essentially an IC team made up of the one club(almost). The problems there are obvious. The problems in hurling are obvious, and attempts to solve them are being made i.e. promotion of the game, training coaches etc

Kilkenny has 31 clubs that play football*. So to say there is no talent there is obviously not true. The truth is that football has been neglected by the CB, whose solution as of last week is to try and attract more players. How? They don't seem to have any plan at all. KK have the clubs and players to set up a developmental structure for coaching, training players and promoting the game.

So the reason KK football is being singled out is because there are no attempts being made to solve these problems, as opposed to hurling.

*According to gaainfo.com

riffmongous · 03-03-2011 2:38am

eroo wrote: »

Kilkenny has 31 clubs that play football*. So to say there is no talent there is obviously not true. The truth is that football has been neglected by the CB, whose solution as of last week is to try and attract more players. How? They don't seem to have any plan at all. KK have the clubs and players to set up a developmental structure for coaching, training players and promoting the game.

So the reason KK football is being singled out is because there are no attempts being made to solve these problems, as opposed to hurling.

*According to gaainfo.com

Interesting, I saw this in my email inbox and I was just about to ask what your source was

Honestly the only clubs I heard of that are really interested in it would be the ones up in the NE near the Carlow and Laois borders, Railway and Muckalee are the only ones I can think of and I think its fair to say they are pretty small clubs.

Hammar · 03-03-2011 2:43am

eroo wrote: »

Yourself and a few others are great at generlisations here.

That point regarding hurlers who never make it onto panel be asked to play for their county in football, is only one of several points made in that post. I thanked that post because I agreed with it's primary points i.e. getting outside expertise and KK board doing something about the problem.

To think that twice now someone has highlighted the fact I thanked a post as if it somehow had a bearing on my opinion is laughable.

Stop going round in circles saying everyone else is doing the same and neglecting one of the codes. That may be true, but nowhere near as shameful as the KK football team.

I may as well address this once and for all..

The Cavan hurlers are atrocious because there are only 8 clubs who play hurling, with Mullahoran having won for the last 21 years!!! The Cavan CB and the GAA's hurling board have a lot to answer for and serious work is needed. It is not surprising Cavan get hammered. It's essentially an IC team made up of the one club(almost). The problems there are obvious. The problems in hurling are obvious, and attempts to solve them are being made i.e. promotion of the game, training coaches etc

Kilkenny has 31 clubs that play football*. So to say there is no talent there is obviously not true. The truth is that football has been neglected by the CB, whose solution as of last week is to try and attract more players. How? They don't seem to have any plan at all. KK have the clubs and players to set up a developmental structure for coaching, training players and promoting the game.

So the reason KK football is being singled out is because there are no attempts being made to solve these problems, as opposed to hurling.

*According to gaainfo.com

The Cavan hurlers have been competitive within Division 4 up to this year, over the last number of years.
They beat Leitrim and South Down and losing narrowly to Fermanagh and Longford,only Monaghan beat them well.
This years set-up is a complete shambles,and a number of their best players arent playing,and is not a proper reflection as to the ability of the Cavan Hurlers.
Hurling being such a skillful game needs to be mastered from a young age,
and their are numerous underage hurling clubs being set up, Baileborough,Cootehill, Ramor/Munnterconnacht etc, work is being done,it will take 8-10 years before,it bears fruit,im afraid.
Finally to add,the incompetency of the Cavan County Board over the last decade is not isolated to the hurlers.
Our Footballers have underacheived greatly in that time period aswell.

As for Kilkenny,
Kilkenny have won,what is it, 2 NFL games since they have came back into Senior Inter County Football,both against London?? (someone correct me if im wrong)
It doesnt take much to be competitive in Gaelic Football,even at IC level.
Geting a team aerobically and physically fit and being organised with a game-plan would stop those huge beatings,even if the Cats didnt win a game.

timogen · 03-03-2011 2:51am

Eroo and shamobuc the question i'd ask you is it an amateur sport?,12 senior football teams as well as 12 senior hurling teams in kilkenny.
Amalgamating clubs.
What basically you want to do is stop some people in kilkenny from playing football for their parish to try and create a football elite of a sort
but that is what it boils down to.
Could they also amalgamate senior hurling clubs then to make the senior hurlers better to at club level eg. o' loughlin gaels and ballyhale shamrocks maybe.

Martin567 · 03-03-2011 11:03am

eroo wrote: »

Yourself and a few others are great at generlisations here.

That point regarding hurlers who never make it onto panel be asked to play for their county in football, is only one of several points made in that post. I thanked that post because I agreed with it's primary points i.e. getting outside expertise and KK board doing something about the problem.

To think that twice now someone has highlighted the fact I thanked a post as if it somehow had a bearing on my opinion is laughable.

Stop going round in circles saying everyone else is doing the same and neglecting one of the codes. That may be true, but nowhere near as shameful as the KK football team.

I may as well address this once and for all..

The Cavan hurlers are atrocious because there are only 8 clubs who play hurling, with Mullahoran having won for the last 21 years!!! The Cavan CB and the GAA's hurling board have a lot to answer for and serious work is needed. It is not surprising Cavan get hammered. It's essentially an IC team made up of the one club(almost). The problems there are obvious. The problems in hurling are obvious, and attempts to solve them are being made i.e. promotion of the game, training coaches etc

Kilkenny has 31 clubs that play football*. So to say there is no talent there is obviously not true. The truth is that football has been neglected by the CB, whose solution as of last week is to try and attract more players. How? They don't seem to have any plan at all. KK have the clubs and players to set up a developmental structure for coaching, training players and promoting the game.

So the reason KK football is being singled out is because there are no attempts being made to solve these problems, as opposed to hurling.

*According to gaainfo.com

After all these pages of discussion, how can you still be getting it so wrong? Half of the country is neglecting hurling at least as badly as Kilkenny is neglecting football. The reason they get away with very little comment is they have each other to play against and so it doesn't stand out. The standard of Div 3 & Div 4 football is immeasurably higher than Div 3 & Div 4 hurling, Kilkenny footballers being the only exception.

Kilkenny may have 31 football clubs. In reality, these are all hurling clubs which play football matches a few times a year. The number of club training sessions involving a football would be negligible. What mostly happens is that the same players who play hurling tog out a handful of times a year to play football.

How can I get into your head the lack of interest in gaelic football in Kilkenny? It is at least the same level as the lack of interest in hurling in these other counties. Will you take my word for that as a Kilkenny man and stop quoting meaningless statistics from websites about number of clubs, etc? If you will take my word on this and also accept that people can't be forced to play or like a sport which they simply don't, we've reached a bit of an impasse.

You said you're from Clare so you will know far more about that county than me. From my limited knowledge, I've never heard very much from the Sixmilebridge or Clarecastle footballers. Maybe there are better examples you can think of. Now imagine putting together the Clare inter-county football team when every club in the county has the same profile as regards hurling/football as those clubs. Last year, the Clare Co Champions made it to the Club All Ireland Final. This was a phenomenal achievement and Kilkenny simply doesn't have anything like this in any club.

Finally, I think it is reasonable for anyone to believe that when you thank another poster, you are agreeing with the views they have expressed. Why else would you thank them? I notice you haven't thanked me yet.

ShamoBuc · 03-03-2011 5:47pm

timogen wrote: »

Eroo and shamobuc the question i'd ask you is it an amateur sport?,12 senior football teams as well as 12 senior hurling teams in kilkenny.
Amalgamating clubs.
What basically you want to do is stop some people in kilkenny from playing football for their parish to try and create a football elite of a sort
but that is what it boils down to.
Could they also amalgamate senior hurling clubs then to make the senior hurlers better to at club level eg. o' loughlin gaels and ballyhale shamrocks maybe.

Is it an amateur sport?:rolleyes:
I want to stop people playing football for their parish? Re read the post boy!!!

If there was an issue with football with the clubs and an amalgamation of some of them ( because of numbers/interest) would help... then yes, where needed ( if needed). If there was no issue, then of course there would be no need to even think of amalgamation. Playing for your club and parish is of course a huge part of the GAA - why change it? - if the numbers/interest are not in a particular parish/club then they would not be playing for their parish.....would they? If the numbers/interest IS there then play away boy!!!! and WITH the aid of a proper development programme by the county board ( coaching, under age, training methods, promotions etc) the numbers/interest level AND ability level will increase. The knock on effect would be an Inter County team that would not be the laughing stock of the GAA and the topic on a discussion thread on boards.ie !

Is there a problem with the hurling in OLG and Shamrocks? News to me:rolleyes:

Martin567 · 03-03-2011 6:29pm

ShamoBuc wrote: »

The knock on effect would be an Inter County team that would not be the laughing stock of the GAA and the topic on a discussion thread on boards.ie !

:rolleyes:

Laughing stock of the Gaelic Football world, perhaps. Laughing stock of the GAA, only if half the country are complete hypocrites.

eroo · 03-03-2011 6:52pm

Martin567 wrote: »

After all these pages of discussion, how can you still be getting it so wrong? Half of the country is neglecting hurling at least as badly as Kilkenny is neglecting football. The reason they get away with very little comment is they have each other to play against and so it doesn't stand out. The standard of Div 3 & Div 4 football is immeasurably higher than Div 3 & Div 4 hurling, Kilkenny footballers being the only exception.

Kilkenny may have 31 football clubs. In reality, these are all hurling clubs which play football matches a few times a year. The number of club training sessions involving a football would be negligible. What mostly happens is that the same players who play hurling tog out a handful of times a year to play football.

How can I get into your head the lack of interest in gaelic football in Kilkenny? It is at least the same level as the lack of interest in hurling in these other counties. Will you take my word for that as a Kilkenny man and stop quoting meaningless statistics from websites about number of clubs, etc? If you will take my word on this and also accept that people can't be forced to play or like a sport which they simply don't, we've reached a bit of an impasse.

You said you're from Clare so you will know far more about that county than me. From my limited knowledge, I've never heard very much from the Sixmilebridge or Clarecastle footballers. Maybe there are better examples you can think of. Now imagine putting together the Clare inter-county football team when every club in the county has the same profile as regards hurling/football as those clubs. Last year, the Clare Co Champions made it to the Club All Ireland Final. This was a phenomenal achievement and Kilkenny simply doesn't have anything like this in any club.

Finally, I think it is reasonable for anyone to believe that when you thank another poster, you are agreeing with the views they have expressed. Why else would you thank them? I notice you haven't thanked me yet.

Clare football does not suffer the same horrific situation as KK football. Efforts have been stepped up to improve the situation. Just because I thank a post does not mean I agree with every word, merely one point or more. I explained this already... So back to the discussion..

Do you not understand that we will never get to a stage where every team in the NHL will be on the same level as each other? That is what you seem to be complaining about. The reason there are Div 3a, 3b and 4 is solely because there are weaker counties. If they want to improve, they seek promotion. So they have the ability to work their way up. Kerry have shown it is possible.

It is the same in football.. except for Kilkenny. They are the only team in the GAA who are being constantly annihilated and always have been historically. By throwing out the argument about lack of development of hurling in other counties(who, may I add, still perform better than KK does in football) you are simply dodging the problem.

There will always be weaker counties in both codes. Fact. I'm not saying KK should be contending for a Leinster title or an All Ireland. They should be doing what every other weaker county in both codes are doing.. trying to work their way up in the League.

I understand and fully agree with you about the situation in hurling Nationally. But the weaker teams can still compete against each other and be competitive e.g. Kerry and Westmeath in Christy Ring Cup. The reason KK football is being highlighted above all other problems in both codes is because they are not competitive at all. How many more times can I explain this?

You have offered only excuses to date and no solutions. Problems in hurling are no reasons for KK's performance in football. So as per the aim of the thread.. what do you think should be done about the KK football team?

ShamoBuc · 03-03-2011 7:11pm

Martin567 wrote: »

Laughing stock of the Gaelic Football world, perhaps. Laughing stock of the GAA, only if half the country are complete hypocrites.

Pedantic much?

Does half the country have a team that lose by as much as the KK football team lose every game by, continuously- for 3 or so years???????

Martin567 · 03-03-2011 8:31pm

ShamoBuc wrote: »

Pedantic much?

Does half the country have a team that lose by as much as the KK football team lose every game by, continuously- for 3 or so years???????

I've explained this so many times that I don't know how to phrase it differently. Is there another language we could converse in that you might understand better? There is only one true minnow in football, there are at least 16 in hurling. Get any of the Div 4 hurling teams to play against a Div 1 or 2 hurling team every week and see what happens. Longford footballers beat Mayo and narrowly lost to Down (both Div 1) in last year's Championship. Yet they remain a Div 4 team. Is there a Div 4 hurling team that could say the same?????????????????????????

ShamoBuc · 03-03-2011 9:41pm

Martin567 wrote: »

I've explained this so many times that I don't know how to phrase it differently. Is there another language we could converse in that you might understand better? There is only one true minnow in football, there are at least 16 in hurling. Get any of the Div 4 hurling teams to play against a Div 1 or 2 hurling team every week and see what happens. Longford footballers beat Mayo and narrowly lost to Down (both Div 1) in last year's Championship. Yet they remain a Div 4 team. Is there a Div 4 hurling team that could say the same?????????????????????????

I don't get it!

Hurling is a far more skillfull sport than football. Reaching the 'top table' is VERY VERY hard, that's the reason only a few counties have won the hurling AI in the last 20 or 30 years, whereas it is far easier to develop and progress in the football leagues - that is the nature of the game of football. How many different teams won the football AI in the last 20 or 30 years - compare the two! The 16 'minnows' are competitive AT THEIR LEVEL. Breaking through the barriers from div 4 to 3 to 2 to 1 is exceptionally difficult. That is the nature of the game of hurling.
But at least they are competitive.
KK footballers are not competitive at the lowest level! Actually that's being way too generous. KK footballers are miles and miles and a few kilometres from even being remotely competitive in the Lowest league of football. It would not take much to make them more competitive, maybe a county board willing to develop the game would do!

Develop the game - does not mean lowering the standard of hurling
- does not mean making a player choose between the two games - it is actually possible to play both, other counties do it. A club hurler can also be a club footballer. An intercounty hurler does not have to be, but can be a club footballer. An intercounty hurler can be an intercounty footballer. A club hurler can be an intercounty footballer. etc

bruschi · 03-03-2011 10:24pm

eroo wrote: »

They are the only team in the GAA who are being constantly annihilated and always have been historically.

you are just answering your own question there. there has never been any interest in football there, and never will. in the other 'weak' football counties around at the moment, they are still mainly a football orientated county whose prioority is football.

Kilkenny should be better, and the county board should do something to promote it, but what is the point in pontificating about it? they are an unbelievable hurling team, and have set a new standard in a greatly skilful game. the fact that they are the only team that cant compete at football doesnt really bother me.

Martin567 · 03-03-2011 10:25pm

ShamoBuc wrote: »

I don't get it!

Hurling is a far more skillfull sport than football. Reaching the 'top table' is VERY VERY hard, that's the reason only a few counties have won the hurling AI in the last 20 or 30 years, whereas it is far easier to develop and progress in the football leagues - that is the nature of the game of football. How many different teams won the football AI in the last 20 or 30 years - compare the two! The 16 'minnows' are competitive AT THEIR LEVEL. Breaking through the barriers from div 4 to 3 to 2 to 1 is exceptionally difficult. That is the nature of the game of hurling.
But at least they are competitive.
KK footballers are not competitive at the lowest level! Actually that's being way too generous. KK footballers are miles and miles and a few kilometres from even being remotely competitive in the Lowest league of football. It would not take much to make them more competitive, maybe a county board willing to develop the game would do!

Develop the game - does not mean lowering the standard of hurling
- does not mean making a player choose between the two games - it is actually possible to play both, other counties do it. A club hurler can also be a club footballer. An intercounty hurler does not have to be, but can be a club footballer. An intercounty hurler can be an intercounty footballer. A club hurler can be an intercounty footballer. etc

As far as you're concerned, I give up. The 16 lowest hurling teams are competitive against each other. There is no-one at Kilkenny's level in football to play against as all the other 31 counties are competitive against each other also. Outside of about 6 or 7 teams, they are all almost interchangeable between divisions. Therefore Kilkenny have no-one to play against. How hard is that for you to understand?????????????

ShamoBuc · 03-03-2011 10:52pm

Martin567 wrote: »

As far as you're concerned, I give up. The 16 lowest hurling teams are competitive against each other. There is no-one at Kilkenny's level in football to play against as all the other 31 counties are competitive against each other also. Outside of about 6 or 7 teams, they are all almost interchangeable between divisions. Therefore Kilkenny have no-one to play against. How hard is that for you to understand?????????????

Ah please don't, I'm only warming up;)

Let me get this straight - in hurling EVERY team in Ireland competitive, the top table, some just below it and about 16 in the lower group!
- in football EVERY team in Ireland is competitive EXCEPT KK!

Given that hurling is by far the more skilfull, more complex etc of the two there is no reason why KK should not be competitive, even if it is at the lowest level, afterall every county is competitive ( at some level) in both codes aren't they? Except Kk footballers of course;)
I cannot fathom why??????????????

Martin567 · 03-03-2011 11:26pm

eroo wrote: »

Clare football does not suffer the same horrific situation as KK football. Efforts have been stepped up to improve the situation. Just because I thank a post does not mean I agree with every word, merely one point or more. I explained this already... So back to the discussion..

Do you not understand that we will never get to a stage where every team in the NHL will be on the same level as each other? That is what you seem to be complaining about. The reason there are Div 3a, 3b and 4 is solely because there are weaker counties. If they want to improve, they seek promotion. So they have the ability to work their way up. Kerry have shown it is possible.

It is the same in football.. except for Kilkenny. They are the only team in the GAA who are being constantly annihilated and always have been historically. By throwing out the argument about lack of development of hurling in other counties(who, may I add, still perform better than KK does in football) you are simply dodging the problem.

There will always be weaker counties in both codes. Fact. I'm not saying KK should be contending for a Leinster title or an All Ireland. They should be doing what every other weaker county in both codes are doing.. trying to work their way up in the League.

I understand and fully agree with you about the situation in hurling Nationally. But the weaker teams can still compete against each other and be competitive e.g. Kerry and Westmeath in Christy Ring Cup. The reason KK football is being highlighted above all other problems in both codes is because they are not competitive at all. How many more times can I explain this?

You have offered only excuses to date and no solutions. Problems in hurling are no reasons for KK's performance in football. So as per the aim of the thread.. what do you think should be done about the KK football team?

Eroo, at this stage I feel as though I'm dealing with a WUM here. In all my replies to you, I have answered in good faith and dealt with every issue you've raised. Despite this, your most recent reply shows that you have understood precisely NOTHING I have said. Once again I will answer your post point by point. If you choose to respond again, please have the decency to do likewise and don't just ignore the points you are unable to answer.

Regarding Clare football, of course it is not the same as Kilkenny football, that's obvious. Your Co Champions just played in the Senior All Ireland final last year. My question, which you failed to answer, was what do Sixmilebridge or Clarecastle (or any other hurling clubs) contribute to the Clare football team? Clare has a football area of the county which I would presume forms the backbone of the county team. As I've explained, Kilkenny doesn't have this as all parts of the county are hurling areas. You've already said you didn't want to force anyone to play football so what exactly do you want?

Regarding your second paragraph, I agree with every word as I have all through this thread. All NHL teams will never be at the same level, the lower divisions are for the weaker counties so they can play competitive games, etc, and it provides them with the opportunity to move up the ranks over time if they succeed in developing the game. 100% agreed.

Third paragraph, I couldn't possibly disagree more. The situation in football is utterly different. Look at some of the teams in Div 4 at present. Roscommon (Connacht Champions), Longford (beat Mayo & narrowly lost to Down, both Div 1 teams, in last year's Championship), Fermanagh (contenders to win the Ulster Championship for the past few years) & Wicklow (beat Down in the Championship 2 years ago). These are all serious teams with aspirations of causing an upset against Div 1 teams. To suggest that this situation is anyway similar to the lower levels of hurling is nothing short of dishonest. These are the sort of teams Kilkenny have to play and it is impossible for them to develop when there is no lower level for them to play against.

Fourth paragraph, your "fact" is incorrect. There are no truly weak counties in football other than Kilkenny for the reasons already outlined.

Fifth paragraph, more of the same. Christy Ring Cup, etc, completely irrelevant. Kilkenny can't be competitive because there is nobody there to be competitive against for the reasons already outlined!!!

Sixth paragraph-I haven't offered a single excuse for anything in any of my replies. I have simply presented you with the facts. I don't have a solution. I've already explained to you that very, very few people in Kilkenny care about football. That's not going to change. You posed the question in your original post as to whether Kilkenny should just withdraw. I think they probably should. I ask you again, is that acceptable to you and if not, why not? Despite what you may think, there are not "loads" of footballers in Kilkenny who are feeling let down by the County Board and who dream of playing football for Kilkenny. As you said above about the lower level hurling teams, that is simply never going to happen.

Finally, this whole discussion reminds me of a conversation I had with a Monaghan man at a wedding a few years ago. He was in his 50's and he was an authority on Monaghan football going back decades. From what I could gather, there was hardly a player who wore the county jersey in the past 50 years that he was not familiar with. When he found out I was from Kilkenny he commiserated with me and said what a pity it was that we couldn't put in more of an effort in football. I pointed out that we're not too bad at the hurling but he just brushed that off and said again how sad it was that we couldn't improve at football. I then asked him about the Monaghan hurlers and he just looked at me blankly. He was unable to tell me how they were doing or even what division they were in. Some people seem to see hurling as an exotic game that you look at a couple of times a year on tv and then forget about. Football is the "real" game. Is it so hard for anyone to understand that, in Kilkenny, the complete opposite is the case? Our county has little interest in football and is the only county in Ireland to feel that way to such an extent. Therefore we have no opposition to meet at our own level unlike the 16 or so counties who feel the same way about hurling.

Martin567 · 03-03-2011 11:51pm

ShamoBuc wrote: »

Ah please don't, I'm only warming up;)

Let me get this straight - in hurling EVERY team in Ireland competitive, the top table, some just below it and about 16 in the lower group!
- in football EVERY team in Ireland is competitive EXCEPT KK!

Given that hurling is by far the more skilfull, more complex etc of the two there is no reason why KK should not be competitive, even if it is at the lowest level, afterall every county is competitive ( at some level) in both codes aren't they? Except Kk footballers of course;)
I cannot fathom why??????????????

In baby language, for you to understand:

Kilkenny footballers V Any Div 1 football team = complete massacre

Kilkenny hurlers V Any Div 4 hurling team = complete massacre

Any Div 1 hurling team V Any Div 4 hurling team = complete massacre

Any Div 1 football team V Any Div 4 football team(other than Kilkenny) = very competitive with the odd win for the Div 4 team

Conclusion:

The gap between the divisions in football is very small and any talk of "levels" is complete nonsense. Kilkenny are the only truly lower level football team. In hurling, there are genuine levels and so easy to be competitive at each level.

Reason:

Unlike every other county, Kilkenny has no football area. Almost every player on the county team is playing his secondary sport. Very few people in Kilkenny care whether we have a team or not as there is nobody for us to play against.

QED

eroo · 03-03-2011 11:53pm

Martin567 wrote: »

Eroo, at this stage I feel as though I'm dealing with a WUM here. In all my replies to you, I have answered in good faith and dealt with every issue you've raised. Despite this, your most recent reply shows that you have understood precisely NOTHING I have said. Once again I will answer your post point by point. If you choose to respond again, please have the decency to do likewise and don't just ignore the points you are unable to answer.

I don't feel I have ignored any of your points. What in the name of god is a WUM?! I have understood it all, and have agreed/disagreed. Your attitude in your posts is stand offish.. surely you can just engage in a friendly
discussion?

Regarding Clare football, of course it is not the same as Kilkenny football, that's obvious. Your Co Champions just played in the Senior All Ireland final last year. My question, which you failed to answer, was what do Sixmilebridge or Clarecastle (or any other hurling clubs) contribute to the Clare football team? Clare has a football area of the county which I would presume forms the backbone of the county team. As I've explained, Kilkenny doesn't have this as all parts of the county are hurling areas. You've already said you didn't want to force anyone to play football so what exactly do you want?

You are correct, we do have what is considered a 'football area'. KK, like ourselves, is a hurling County but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have a football team playing for the County we all love. No I don't want to see anyone forced to play a sport.. but if they were introduced and encouraged at youth level they may want to play the sport!

Regarding your second paragraph, I agree with every word as I have all through this thread. All NHL teams will never be at the same level, the lower divisions are for the weaker counties so they can play competitive games, etc, and it provides them with the opportunity to move up the ranks over time if they succeed in developing the game. 100% agreed.

Third paragraph, I couldn't possibly disagree more. The situation in football is utterly different. Look at some of the teams in Div 4 at present. Roscommon (Connacht Champions), Longford (beat Mayo & narrowly lost to Down, both Div 1 teams, in last year's Championship), Fermanagh (contenders to win the Ulster Championship for the past few years) & Wicklow (beat Down in the Championship 2 years ago). These are all serious teams with aspirations of causing an upset against Div 1 teams. To suggest that this situation is anyway similar to the lower levels of hurling is nothing short of dishonest. These are the sort of teams Kilkenny have to play and it is impossible for them to develop when there is no lower level for them to play against.

Yet these teams rarely ever cause an upset, and if they do it is usually a once off. So there is a major gap imo. None of the teams you mentioned would be considered as a tough opponent the top tier, except among their own Divisions. KK cannot say the same unfortunately.

Fourth paragraph, your "fact" is incorrect. There are no truly weak counties in football other than Kilkenny for the reasons already outlined.

As I said above, there are. I don't see Leitrim beating Kerry or even Galway right now.

Fifth paragraph, more of the same. Christy Ring Cup, etc, completely irrelevant. Kilkenny can't be competitive because there is nobody there to be competitive against for the reasons already outlined!!!
The reason is the game is under developed.. because there is no attempt to develop it. KK could very easily be competitive in the NFL Div 4.

Sixth paragraph-I haven't offered a single excuse for anything in any of my replies. I have simply presented you with the facts. I don't have a solution. I've already explained to you that very, very few people in Kilkenny care about football. That's not going to change. You posed the question in your original post as to whether Kilkenny should just withdraw. I think they probably should. I ask you again, is that acceptable to you and if not, why not? Despite what you may think, there are not "loads" of footballers in Kilkenny who are feeling let down by the County Board and who dream of playing football for Kilkenny. As you said above about the lower level hurling teams, that is simply never going to happen.

It is not acceptable to me because there are followers of football in KK, few though they may be. There would be more if football was given a fighting chance!

Finally, this whole discussion reminds me of a conversation I had with a Monaghan man at a wedding a few years ago. He was in his 50's and he was an authority on Monaghan football going back decades. From what I could gather, there was hardly a player who wore the county jersey in the past 50 years that he was not familiar with. When he found out I was from Kilkenny he commiserated with me and said what a pity it was that we couldn't put in more of an effort in football. I pointed out that we're not too bad at the hurling but he just brushed that off and said again how sad it was that we couldn't improve at football. I then asked him about the Monaghan hurlers and he just looked at me blankly. He was unable to tell me how they were doing or even what division they were in. Some people seem to see hurling as an exotic game that you look at a couple of times a year on tv and then forget about. Football is the "real" game. Is it so hard for anyone to understand that, in Kilkenny, the complete opposite is the case? Our county has little interest in football and is the only county in Ireland to feel that way to such an extent. Therefore we have no opposition to meet at our own level unlike the 16 or so counties who feel the same way about hurling.

I understand this, I'm not even a big football fan myself. I just am a big supporter of Clare IC teams in both codes and love to see them win. But maybe it would be best for KK to throw in the towel if there is no appetite for success in both codes.

...

eroo · 03-03-2011 11:55pm

But why not improve coaching, promotion and playing of football in the couny so that you can compete against other teams?

ShamoBuc · 04-03-2011 12:38am

Martin567 wrote: »

In baby language, for you to understand:

Kilkenny footballers V Any Div 1 football team = complete massacre

Kilkenny hurlers V Any Div 4 hurling team = complete massacre

Any Div 1 hurling team V Any Div 4 hurling team = complete massacre

Any Div 1 football team V Any Div 4 football team(other than Kilkenny) = very competitive with the odd win for the Div 4 team

Conclusion:

The gap between the divisions in football is very small and any talk of "levels" is complete nonsense. Kilkenny are the only truly lower level football team. In hurling, there are genuine levels and so easy to be competitive at each level.

Reason:

Unlike every other county, Kilkenny has no football area. Almost every player on the county team is playing his secondary sport. Very few people in Kilkenny care whether we have a team or not as there is nobody for us to play against.

QED

SO WHAT ????? Do you not think people can play 2 sports well?????????? If they need help to improve ( which they do ) why not DEVELOP FOOTBALL IN THE COUNTY??? Enter County Board (or not as is the case!)

In baby language, for you to understand : improve coaching, promotion and playing of football in the couny so that you can compete against other teams?

Martin567 · 04-03-2011 12:48am

eroo wrote: »

But why not improve coaching, promotion and playing of football in the couny so that you can compete against other teams?

The problem remains though that there are no football areas in Kilkenny. Every other inter-county football team is backboned by players from the football clubs. Dual players are rare. Whatever team Kilkenny might play, they would remain a team of hurlers playing football. Talk of coaching & promotion is fine but without a natural base it would still be very difficult. No other county has this problem so your advice is not that simple. Will a bunch of players put in the effort knowing that a 20 point improvement on the current team would still mean you were going to lose by 10 points every match? Creating a football area would bring us back to the issue of forcing people so that's out too.

By the way, if you really don't know, a WUM is a Wind Up Merchant. I think we may leave it at that as I can't see us agreeing. I certainly don't intend to be stand offish, it's simply frustration at what I see as the completely unjustified criticism aimed at Kilkenny from a number of posters, many of whom make no effort to understand Kilkenny's position. Some of the posts in the early part of this thread, not yours, are "misguided" to put it very mildly and talk of sanctions will annoy any Kilkenny person as it is both inconsistent and unfair.

Martin567 · 04-03-2011 12:55am

ShamoBuc wrote: »

SO WHAT ????? Do you not think people can play 2 sports well?????????? If they need help to improve ( which they do ) why not DEVELOP FOOTBALL IN THE COUNTY??? Enter County Board (or not as is the case!)

In baby language, for you to understand : improve coaching, promotion and playing of football in the couny so that you can compete against other teams?

See my previous post.

By the way, I see the last line of your post is a word for word replica of Eroo's last reply right down to the misspelling "couny". Am I right to be suspicious?

eroo · 04-03-2011 1:24am

Martin567 wrote: »

The problem remains though that there are no football areas in Kilkenny. Every other inter-county football team is backboned by players from the football clubs. Dual players are rare. Whatever team Kilkenny might play, they would remain a team of hurlers playing football. Talk of coaching & promotion is fine but without a natural base it would still be very difficult. No other county has this problem so your advice is not that simple. Will a bunch of players put in the effort knowing that a 20 point improvement on the current team would still mean you were going to lose by 10 points every match? Creating a football area would bring us back to the issue of forcing people so that's out too.

By the way, if you really don't know, a WUM is a Wind Up Merchant. I think we may leave it at that as I can't see us agreeing. I certainly don't intend to be stand offish, it's simply frustration at what I see as the completely unjustified criticism aimed at Kilkenny from a number of posters, many of whom make no effort to understand Kilkenny's position. Some of the posts in the early part of this thread, not yours, are "misguided" to put it very mildly and talk of sanctions will annoy any Kilkenny person as it is both inconsistent and unfair.

I fully agree that it is very difficult to develop the game without a solid base already there.. but you have to start from scratch then. It is possible if CB set out a 10-15 year plan to promote and establish football in Kilkenny. Again, there would be no forcing involved, it wouldn't work anyway!

Speak Now · 04-03-2011 10:10am

ShamoBuc wrote: »

Given that hurling is by far the more skilfull, more complex etc of the two there is no reason why KK should not be competitive, even if it is at the lowest level, afterall every county is competitive ( at some level) in both codes aren't they? Except Kk footballers of course;)
I cannot fathom why??????????????

They wont tog out for the county.

No one from the 2010 county final on this years panel.

There are guys on the Kilkenny football panel who wouldn't make the first 15 in their club team.

ShamoBuc · 04-03-2011 6:34pm

Martin567 wrote: »

See my previous post.

By the way, I see the last line of your post is a word for word replica of Eroo's last reply right down to the misspelling "couny". Am I right to be suspicious?

lol, I was going to correct it, but thought it would be more fun if I didn't;) ( gotta love copy and paste!)

re: state of the kk IC football team - see my previous post;)

ShamoBuc · 04-03-2011 6:37pm

Jerry Seinfeld wrote: »

They wont tog out for the county.

No one from the 2010 county final on this years panel.

There are guys on the Kilkenny football panel who wouldn't make the first 15 in their club team.

That's very interesting. They obviously like football and put in some effort as they got to the final. Why are they not inclined to tog out for their county? Why be happy to play for your club but not your county?

Speak Now · 04-03-2011 10:28pm

ShamoBuc wrote: »

That's very interesting. They obviously like football and put in some effort as they got to the final. Why are they not inclined to tog out for their county? Why be happy to play for your club but not your county?

haven't a clue

Senior football league starts tomorrow

Railyard V Thomastown
Muckalee V Dicksboro
Erins own V Kilmogany
Glenmore V Mooncoin

March seems to be football season

http://www.kilkennygaa.ie/fixtures?countyBoardID=15&daysAfter=10&nosort=1

ShamoBuc · 04-03-2011 10:59pm

Jerry Seinfeld wrote: »

haven't a clue

Senior football league starts tomorrow

Railyard V Thomastown
Muckalee V Dicksboro
Erins own V Kilmogany
Glenmore V Mooncoin

March seems to be football season

http://www.kilkennygaa.ie/fixtures?countyBoardID=15&daysAfter=10&nosort=1

I hope some of them, at the very least, will be competitive;)

Speak Now · 06-03-2011 12:07am

ShamoBuc wrote: »

I hope some of them, at the very least, will be competitive;)

Thomastown gave a walkover :mad:

DARK-KNIGHT · 06-03-2011 1:30am

just reading through here guys and tbh those calling for equal amounts of funding to be dished out between football and hurling is silly at best..

the kildare hurlers for example are average god i love my county colours believe me or lack of them lol but i would follow the jersey no matter what but the pull on football to hurling in kildare is huge.

few big hurling clubs like ardclough, clane, celbridge, naas and maybe eire og but football rules here and to distribute half kildares funding to hurling would be a waste tbh as it would be in kilkenny.

and before someone says cork or dublin field both good teams look at the population in those counties???

just my opinion but i say fair play to kilkenny footballers they are taking it up the nether regions and turning up wearing jersey with pride.....

06-03-2011 1:56am

titsmahgee wrote: »

I remember one the lads who was on the Kilkenny football panel telling me about the time they went over to London to play a league match and half the team where out drinking in London the night before. I think it was two years ago.

I heard that exact same story. Half of them were in bed by 10 and the other half got pissed. A girl i used go out with, her brother plays for them and he is one of the good guys who trains hard and tries his best but has to endure a miserable county board and a few who wont even try at least to go down with a fight.

there was a similar argument on Premierview recently and a few KK posters are adamant that they are promoting the game. We were fed lines like "Why dont monaghan dont promote hurling so?", "Handball titles", "We have football for all ages", pretty much same sh*te as on here. Even Nicky Brennan has condemned their attitude towards the game on his column but we are all WUMS of course for daring to suggest there is a problem with Kilkenny football when they will be ready for Kerry in September:rolleyes:

06-03-2011 2:14am

ShamoBuc wrote: »

That's the bloody point fella !!!!! It wouldn't be hard !!!! They should be encouraged.... I wonder who could do that.... certainly not the county board:rolleyes:

Ay sure didnt DJ Carey have aspirations of playing both codes for his county until he was told by the Gowran headmaster "You'd be better sticking with the hurling DJ"

My ex's brother was called up to an u21 hurling panel some years back and when he pledged to juggle between the two codes, the selector who gave him the call was very disgruntled at the other end.

andyman · 06-03-2011 7:12am

For those going on about the underage levels of football. I was a Kilkenny underage footballer and the attitude was absolutely pathetic. I moved to Kilkenny from Wicklow and played a big role for one of Wicklows better under-age clubs. Moved to Kilkenny and the attitude when my club were knocked out of the Championship was "Right lads, hurling training next week". This is the same at other clubs that I'd know people from and that's including the clubs that would have won the Championship.

Now, for instance, my parish doesn't have a senior football team, which means I've to travel to Tipp if I want to play football. I used to love the game but the attitude towards it when I moved down here put me off it completely.

Annuv · 06-03-2011 9:34am

andyman wrote: »

For those going on about the underage levels of football. I was a Kilkenny underage footballer and the attitude was absolutely pathetic. I moved to Kilkenny from Wicklow and played a big role for one of Wicklows better under-age clubs. Moved to Kilkenny and the attitude when my club were knocked out of the Championship was "Right lads, hurling training next week". This is the same at other clubs that I'd know people from and that's including the clubs that would have won the Championship.

Now, for instance, my parish doesn't have a senior football team, which means I've to travel to Tipp if I want to play football. I used to love the game but the attitude towards it when I moved down here put me off it completely.

This is the point, it is the general attitute of people in KK. It's not the county boards fault, in general the interest is just not there. I have played for Kilkenny underage in football, and even then I always saw it as something to do when there was no hurling or to keep sharp.

My own club won the county final last year and I know for most of the players they played just to keep sharp, of course it was taken more seriosuly when they got to the final.

Kilkenny people love hurling, the majority don't love football. That's it. From an early age they want to win hurling All-Ireland finals not football. The game is given as much chance as hurling in other counties where football dominates but the interest just is not there. This is why we see walkovers been given with regularity

There is a whole load of people from outside KK posting in this thread as if they have intricate knowledge of how football is managed in KK where the funding goes etc, can posters back up these assertions with some figures because I have no idea how much is spent on promoting football in Kilkenny? If hurling was as bad in KK as football is, no one would give a sh|te.

ShamoBuc · 06-03-2011 12:53pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Ay sure didnt DJ Carey have aspirations of playing both codes for his county until he was told by the Gowran headmaster "You'd be better sticking with the hurling DJ"

My ex's brother was called up to an u21 hurling panel some years back and when he pledged to juggle between the two codes, the selector who gave him the call was very disgruntled at the other end.

That's a fair point about if you are good enough to play intercounty hurling with KK - you are told to drop football. But how many players is that ??? Think of all the hurlers in kk who will never represent their county in hurling - because the standard is so high. Some of them play football - as you mentioned DJ and you ex's brother were good enough - but the ones that aren't could represent their county in football - if it was taken seriously by the county board. If the county board took football seriously then the clubs would take it more seriously.
I don't think a county board should give Equal funding to football and hurling -pointless where a county is as one sided as kk. BUT there should be a percentage ( 15 or 20 for eg.) that is a minimum for any county that has to be spent on the 'other' code- I'm sure if they had to pour a minimum % in then it would be an instant help in the development of that code in the county.
As is evident, their are enough footballers in kk some take it more seriously than others. For the ones that take it seriously - it's a pity for them, that they are from kk.

06-03-2011 4:08pm

ShamoBuc wrote: »

That's a fair point about if you are good enough to play intercounty hurling with KK - you are told to drop football. But how many players is that ??? Think of all the hurlers in kk who will never represent their county in hurling - because the standard is so high. Some of them play football - as you mentioned DJ and you ex's brother were good enough - but the ones that aren't could represent their county in football - if it was taken seriously by the county board. If the county board took football seriously then the clubs would take it more seriously.
I don't think a county board should give Equal funding to football and hurling -pointless where a county is as one sided as kk. BUT there should be a percentage ( 15 or 20 for eg.) that is a minimum for any county that has to be spent on the 'other' code- I'm sure if they had to pour a minimum % in then it would be an instant help in the development of that code in the county.
As is evident, their are enough footballers in kk some take it more seriously than others. For the ones that take it seriously - it's a pity for them, that they are from kk.

Exactly. i find it very very hard to imagine there being no interest whatsoever in the game.
No incentive perhaps, because i mean why would the likes of Boxing (Darren O'Neill) , Snooker (David Morris), Athletics (Joanne Cuddihy), Rugby (Ian Dowling), Soccer (Michael Reddy) have interest in their respective disciplines only their participants were well looked after by the respective bodies who promote these games, and that's the bottom line.

Daysha · 09-03-2011 10:27pm

Leinster U21 Football Championship score from tonight: Carlow 8-19 Kilkenny 1-01

09-03-2011 10:36pm

Daysha wrote: »

Leinster U21 Football Championship score from tonight: Carlow 8-19 Kilkenny 1-01

Jesus why do they even let them in the championship?

And the county board will still continue to show utter contempt for the sport and have no thought for the lads turning out for them as they are humiliated into oblivion. Something has to be done they cant keep leaving matches like this go on.

ShamoBuc · 09-03-2011 11:19pm

Daysha wrote: »

Leinster U21 Football Championship score from tonight: Carlow 8-19 Kilkenny 1-01

at least they scored :rolleyes:

flahavaj · 10-03-2011 12:06am

"But But but we don't care about football like......."

Of course ye don't - what young lad aspires to be on a team getting beaten by the giants of Carlow. Disgrace of a county.

The_Kew_Tour · 10-03-2011 1:15am

Wow if it was Cork, Kerry or Dublin rather then Carlow I say something, but thats hiding.

eroo · 10-03-2011 1:45am

That is shocking.

Martin567 · 10-03-2011 11:17am

flahavaj wrote: »

"But But but we don't care about football like......."

Of course ye don't - what young lad aspires to be on a team getting beaten by the giants of Carlow. Disgrace of a county.

Terrible scoreline but let's see Louth, Longford, Wicklow, etc, U21s playing in the Leinster U21 Hurling Championship. You would see plenty of similar scorelines. Would these then be described as being "disgraceful counties"? Of course not because that is different for some mysterious reason.

adrian522 · 10-03-2011 1:28pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Jesus why do they even let them in the championship?

And the county board will still continue to show utter contempt for the sport and have no thought for the lads turning out for them as they are humiliated into oblivion. Something has to be done they cant keep leaving matches like this go on.

Long may you be confused.

It's not a case of being allowed in but rather being pressured to enter a team when there is little or no point in entering one.

If it was up to the KKCB no team would be entered and I would agree with that, does no-one any favours to go out and get hammered like that every week, but fair play to the guys who turned out for the county even though they knew they were in for a hiding.

btw to the guy with the "Disgrace of a county" comment, I won't even give that the dignity of a response.

10-03-2011 2:06pm

adrian522 wrote: »

Long may you be confused.

It's not a case of being allowed in but rather being pressured to enter a team when there is little or no point in entering one.

If it was up to the KKCB no team would be entered and I would agree with that, does no-one any favours to go out and get hammered like that every week, but fair play to the guys who turned out for the county even though they knew they were in for a hiding.

btw to the guy with the "Disgrace of a county" comment, I won't even give that the dignity of a response.

I dunno, perhaps there should be a div 5 created for the demographically non football areas.

Martin567 · 10-03-2011 2:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I dunno, perhaps there should be a div 5 created for the demographically non football areas.

Great idea! Now what other teams would you have in this Div 5?

10-03-2011 2:35pm

Martin567 wrote: »

Great idea! Now what other teams would you have in this Div 5?

I suppose Waterford city, North Tipp, or basically pick from clubs with poor football teams or even merge clubs along the border counties, supposing its mix and match its all for the good of the sport in weaker areas.

PARKHEAD67 · 10-03-2011 3:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I suppose Waterford city, North Tipp, or basically pick from clubs with poor football teams or even merge clubs along the border counties, supposing its mix and match its all for the good of the sport in weaker areas.

Waterford and Tipp already have football teams.If there are good players from weaker areas in the county, surely they'd be on the county panel anyway.Basically Kilkenny dont give a damn about football.Thats their own choice.Creating a div.5 just because theyre so bad sounds ridiculous.I have no love of football myself, but the scorelines against them suggest its time to stop humiliating themselves.At least they've decent hurlers. Some counties are woeful in both codes.

adrian522 · 10-03-2011 4:10pm

PARKHEAD67 wrote: »

Waterford and Tipp already have football teams.If there are good players from weaker areas in the county, surely they'd be on the county panel anyway.Basically Kilkenny dont give a damn about football.Thats their own choice.Creating a div.5 just because theyre so bad sounds ridiculous.I have no love of football myself, but the scorelines against them suggest its time to stop humiliating themselves.At least they've decent hurlers. Some counties are woeful in both codes.

works OK for South Down, fingal etc.

If players are good enough they can still play for the county team.

PARKHEAD67 · 10-03-2011 4:38pm

adrian522 wrote: »

works OK for South Down, fingal etc.

If players are good enough they can still play for the county team.

Maybe so. But theres such an abyss between Kilkenny and the rest in Div.4. Most of the other teams are fairly even enough.Then you have Kilkenny shipping obscene scorelines. Surely they dont deserve a "Division" just because they are chronic.

DH2K9 · 10-03-2011 4:56pm

Daysha wrote: »

Leinster U21 Football Championship score from tonight: Carlow 8-19 Kilkenny 1-01

I'd say the Carlow keeper will be dropped..........

Kilkenny Football - ??

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