If the UK asked Ireland to rejoin the Union, how would you vote?

Da Shins Kelly · 20-09-2014 2:24pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Having lived in a few countries myself I never failed to be amazed at the amount of effort the Irish abroad put into trying to make whatever corner of a foreign field they've ended up in as close to 'home' as possible - instead of getting on with living and embracing the local culture, community etc - that doesn't mean giving up your 'Irishness' - it just means adding to it.

I think you'll find almost any nationality that settles abroad tends to group together. Where do you think stuff like Chinatown and Little Italy and other such neighborhoods and subcultures come from? If you walk through any major city you'll find areas that are predominantly African/Middle Eastern/Jewish/Irish/etc. When a lot of people from the same backgrounds or countries find each other in a foreign country, they'll tend to stick together. Doesn't mean they don't assimilate either though. Plenty of Irish people and people of Irish descent have reached the upper echelons of society in the UK and the US.

Karl Stein · 20-09-2014 2:24pm

Jawgap wrote: »

I never failed to be amazed at the amount of effort the Irish abroad put into trying to make whatever corner of a foreign field they've ended up in as close to 'home' as possible

It's not entirely unnatural for people to want to feel at home by associating with each other when abroad. Regardless, yours is a common criticism that we make of each other which displays there are many Irish who actively avoid the 'Irish Bar holiday'. Have you anything positive to say about your fellow countrymen or are you also ailed by cultural cringe?

Australian sociologists Brian Head and James Walter [...] interpret the cultural cringe as the belief that one's own country occupies a "subordinate cultural place on the periphery" and that "intellectual standards are set and innovations occur elsewhere."

wikipedia.org

Richard Hillman · 20-09-2014 2:29pm

No to reject rejoining the Union

Karl Stein wrote: »

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Sure thing boys.

I cant believe you actually went out of your way to find out who voted for it :pac:

Cienciano · 20-09-2014 2:32pm

The Golden Miller wrote: »

67 people need to be reefed up to the Wicklow mountains and given a good kicking

Balmed Out wrote: »

I cant understand hos so many voted yes. Weird. As much as we are an imperfect nation so is the UK and I say that as someone who quite likes the UK.

There is imho more of a class divide, more social problems, inferior first and second level education etc etc.

Regardless though why would you want to be ruled from further afield with less of your own interests at heart. Im all for free trade, the free movement of people between our countries etc etc and basically being the best of neighbors and having each others backs but giving up our independence not a hope.

Almost no one would actually want it, there's a big difference between a boards poll with 12 year olds and people taking the píss voting and a real vote.

Karl Stein · 20-09-2014 2:33pm

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I cant believe you actually went out of your way to find out who voted for it :pac:

One click of a mouse is going out of my way? You find that unbelievable?

Fratton Fred · 20-09-2014 2:35pm

No to reject rejoining the Union

No matter what anyone says, you really have to admire Karl's ability to mention the famine in any thread relating to the UK.

Disappointed there's no mention of Cromwell though. Still, I'm sure that's coming.

Richard Hillman · 20-09-2014 2:36pm

No to reject rejoining the Union

Karl Stein wrote: »

One click of a mouse is going out of my way? You find that unbelievable?

It was the curiosity though......

Fratton Fred · 20-09-2014 2:37pm

No to reject rejoining the Union

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I cant believe you actually went out of your way to find out who voted for it :pac:

I love the smell of intimidation in the morning.

That list is probably on its way to shinner central as we speak.

Jawgap · 20-09-2014 2:38pm

Karl Stein wrote: »

It's not entirely unnatural for people to want to feel at home by associating with each other when abroad. Regardless, yours is a common criticism that we make of each other which displays there are many Irish who actively avoid the 'Irish Bar holiday'. Have you anything positive to say about your fellow countrymen or are you also ailed by cultural cringe?

I know you arrived late to this thread so here's a summary of what I've said earlier.....

Jawgap wrote: »

......

We wouldn't have to doff the cap and tug our national forelock at the German Chancellor or the French President and ask them nicely for more......

Plus, who is to say we wouldn't end up running the show? Historically, whatever country the Irish have travelled to, and whatever international institutions we've been a part of, we've always been pretty good at getting into and controlling the key positions of real power!
........)

Jawgap wrote: »

the third largest trade surplus in the EU?

It would offset just over 50% of the UK's record trade deficit

EDIT: and, apparently, an economy that's growing twice as fast as the 'mainland' economy; a current account surplus of nearly €3 billion (compared to the UK's current account deficit of stg£18.5 billion)

Jawgap wrote: »

Inherently, there is no reason why we can't have a healthcare system that rivals and even exceeds the NHS. The main problems as I see them are the unions who represent the admin staff, and - on the other 'side' - the lack on any politician with the vision, character and charisma to carry the project through.

As long as we keep electing failed teachers and estate agents to the Dail (like it's some kind of glorified county council) then I think we're condemned to suffer under institutions like the HSE.

Which is a pity, because I reckon if we were just that bit more willing to introduce some accountability (proper accountability!) into the political and professional life of the country, the place would be transformed in short order for the better of everyone........then we'd have to introduce immigration quotas for the Brits

Nodin · 20-09-2014 2:44pm

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I cant believe you actually went out of your way to find out who voted for it :pac:

Don't worry Richie, its not real, because in real life southern unionists aren't on the map.

Jawgap · 20-09-2014 2:45pm

I see the gang's all here now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4BwFl3kb5g

Karl Stein · 20-09-2014 2:48pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I love the smell of intimidation in the morning.

Intimidation? Seriously? I'm confident anyone that knows me in real life would describe me as anything but intimidating.

That list is probably on its way to shinner central as we speak.

Because 'shinner central' (whatever the hell that is) would be oh so interested in a list of monikers created by anonymous people on an internet forum.

You've lost the run of yourself man.

Henry Sidney · 20-09-2014 2:48pm

No to reject rejoining the Union

The Golden Miller wrote: »

67 people need to be reefed up to the Wicklow mountains and given a good kicking

So do the poster and people who thanked this post truly advocate beating someone for their political beliefs? Unbelievable. Stuck in your ways still, eh boys?

Henry Sidney · 20-09-2014 2:50pm

No to reject rejoining the Union

Nodin wrote: »

Don't worry Richie, its not real, because in real life southern unionists aren't on the map.

Is that because they were taking to Wicklow for a kicking, as advocated by you thanking that post earlier?

No sign of advancement there, still stuck in the old ways. Violence is not the answer.

Karl Stein · 20-09-2014 2:56pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

you really have to admire Karl's ability to mention the famine in any thread relating to the UK.

Wrong. I bring up the calamities of British administration when people pretend our former 'Union' was a wonderful marriage rather than an abusive relationship.

Pompous · 20-09-2014 2:57pm

No to reject rejoining the Union

This country has so much wasted potential. So much greed and corruption at the highest levels. Then at the first sign of trouble we sold our sovereignty to the EU and the IMF. Might as well give what's left of the country back to the Brits, for all the difference it would make.

Jawgap · 20-09-2014 3:00pm

Karl Stein wrote: »

Wrong. I bring up the calamities of British administration when people pretend our former 'Union' was a wonderful marriage rather than an abusive relationship.

It was neither.....

.....and at 'independence' all we did was change one ruling elite for another - still it's nicer getting repeatedly screwed over by your own instead of a bunch of foreigners.......

Richard · 20-09-2014 3:00pm

No to reject rejoining the Union

Jawgap wrote: »

Really?

Full tables......
Scottish Referendum Poll CATI & ONLINE Fieldwork : 18th-19th September 2014

Summary table.....

EDIT: YouGov also did an exit poll

Neither of those is an exit poll.

Fair enough, those surveys did show more support for Yes amongst 16-17 year olds, although other polls showed differently.

I don't think we can read into any polls too much, however, and if there were another vote in 30-40 years the issues may be very different though.

Jawgap · 20-09-2014 3:08pm

Richard wrote: »

Neither of those is an exit poll.

Fair enough, those surveys did show more support for Yes amongst 16-17 year olds, although other polls showed differently.

I don't think we can read into any polls too much, however, and if there were another vote in 30-40 years the issues may be very different though.

What?

The YouGov article was published on

Thu September 18, 2014 10:18 p.m. BST

The opening sentence says "YouGov bases its prediction on the responses of 1,828 people after they voted today, together with those of 800 people who had already voted by post."

The phrase "yougov exit poll" returns 77,600 hits on Google News.

I suppose you are going to argue that it fails to meet the technical definition of an exit poll :rolleyes:

I think it (and the Ashcroft poll) pass the 'duck' test.

pmasterson95 · 20-09-2014 3:08pm

Karl Stein · 20-09-2014 3:14pm

Jawgap wrote: »

It was neither.....

Some would have you believe British rule of Ireland was halcyon days of yore.

and at 'independence' all we did was change one ruling elite for another

I'd largely agree with that but I'd remind you that small nations who gain independence from former world colonial powers often find themselves in turmoil or subject to brutal regimes - as bad as it was (and it wasn't all bad) it could have been far worse.

We're still a relatively young country and all-in-all we're not doing too bad. We often find ourselves at the upper end of quality of life surveys in all manner of publications.

Richard · 20-09-2014 3:17pm

No to reject rejoining the Union

Jawgap wrote: »

What?

The YouGov article was published on

Thu September 18, 2014 10:18 p.m. BST

The opening sentence says "YouGov bases its prediction on the responses of 1,828 people after they voted today, together with those of 800 people who had already voted by post."

The phrase "yougov exit poll" returns 77,600 hits on Google News.

I suppose you are going to argue that it fails to meet the technical definition of an exit poll :rolleyes:

There's no argument, it isn't an exit poll. It's a survey.

Jawgap · 20-09-2014 3:23pm

Karl Stein wrote: »

Some would have you believe British rule of Ireland was halcyon days of yore.

I'd largely agree with that but I'd remind you that small nations who gain independence from former world colonial powers often find themselves in turmoil or subject to brutal regimes - as bad as it was (and it wasn't all bad) it could have been far worse.

We're still a relatively young country and all-in-all we're not doing too bad. We often find ourselves at the upper end of quality of life surveys in all manner of publications.

Yes, and it could have been far, far better. We could have taken advantage of our position within the commonwealth and used the imperial preference to bring real and substantial wealth into the country.

Instead, we decided to engage in an Economic War with our nearest and largest trading partner.......genius!

DarkyHughes · 20-09-2014 3:25pm

I don't like them occupying my country in the North as it as never mind anywhere else in it.NO, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER,NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!

Henry Sidney · 20-09-2014 3:29pm

No to reject rejoining the Union

DarkyHughes wrote: »

I don't like them occupying my country in the North as it as never mind anywhere else in it.NO, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER,NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!

We don't occupy it and it's not your country.

Frank Lee Midere · 20-09-2014 3:32pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, and it could have been far, far better. We could have taken advantage of our position within the commonwealth and used the imperial preference to bring real and substantial wealth into the country.

Instead, we decided to engage in an Economic War with our nearest and largest trading partner.......genius!

The "imperial presence". Lol.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup · 20-09-2014 3:33pm

i can't believe the Yes is at 20%

who are you people?!

Frank Lee Midere · 20-09-2014 3:34pm

Henry Sidney wrote: »

We don't occupy it and it's not your country.

You did and it was part of the Irish nation.

( queue people not understanding the difference between a state and a nation).

Jawgap · 20-09-2014 3:41pm

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

You did and it was part of the Irish nation.

( queue people not understanding the difference between a state and a nation).

cue - people not understanding the history of the 'nation' construct - and in particular the fact that it only arose in the early 19th Century before being applied retrospectively........

Henry Sidney · 20-09-2014 3:41pm

No to reject rejoining the Union

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

You did and it was part of the Irish nation.

( queue people not understanding the difference between a state and a nation).

And CUE people who don't know the difference between a nation and a country.

DLMA23 · 20-09-2014 3:44pm

There's a new John Bull trolling boards.ie

Howya Keith AFC, good to have you back

Henry Sidney · 20-09-2014 3:48pm

No to reject rejoining the Union

DLMA23 wrote: »

There's a new John Bull trolling boards.ie

Howya Keith AFC, good to have you back

I'm not Northern Irish, nor am I banned, so not Keith.

Amazing as it is, not everyone in the world is an irish armchair republican. In fact there are so few of you that you don't even register on a global scale.

Which is quite apt.

ghogie91 · 20-09-2014 3:50pm

Big no, also anger towards any government that would even bring that vote to the irish people

DarkyHughes · 20-09-2014 3:53pm

Henry Sidney wrote: »

We don't occupy it and it's not your country.

It is my country. My allegiance is to the 32 county All Irish Republic proclaimed by the seven man Provisional Government during Easter week of 1916 and ratified by the first Dail in 1919. Not any any other foreign imposed state on this island.

DLMA23 · 20-09-2014 3:54pm

Henry Sidney wrote: »

I'm not Northern Irish, nor am I banned, so not Keith.

Amazing as it is, not everyone in the world is an irish armchair republican. In fact there are so few of you that you don't even register on a global scale.

Which is quite apt.

FYI, I'm no armchair republican, I put my beliefs where my mouth is, I was released under the GFA in 2000

Fortunately not every royalist/loyalist is a smug/ ****-stirring keyboard warrior & I can say that I have sat down with some of my former enemies & even found a grudging respect/friendship for a few

DarkyHughes · 20-09-2014 3:58pm

DLMA23 wrote: »

FYI, I'm no armchair republican, I put my beliefs where my mouth is, I was released under the GFA in 2000

Fortunately not every royalist/loyalist is a smug/ ****-stirring keyboard warrior & I can say that I have sat down with some of my former enemies & even found a grudging respect/friendship for a few

fair play man, I wont ask for (if you were the Armagh sniper give me a wink) but nice one for defending the Republic.

All other states in this island are illegal under international law. The only legit government in this island who can make laws is the Dail of the all Irish Republic whose power currently lies with the IRA Army Council & the only forces who can legally enforce those laws are the Irish Republican Police & the Irish Republican Army.

The Irish Republic is a Democratic Socialist state & a multi-party state system which believes in real representative democracy based at the lowest level, civil rights & civil liberties, equality for all & does not discriminate against anybody based on gender, religion, sexual preference, skin color, race etc(unlike some illegal states on this island)...the government will make sure no little boys or girls or families go hungry & will do their best to ensure every citizen has a good standard of living. Workers will control the means of their own production.

pedro1234 · 20-09-2014 3:58pm

So this is a fun social experiment. I thought the overall public figure to a poll like this, if conducted door to door would have been around 10 - 12% nationwide.

A radio show asked this question and of 2000 people who answered in Ireland, 87% of them said yes.

I'm surprised Boards.ie is as high as around 20% - I knew there were a lot of people on here who want to be British but I didn't think it was that high.

A couple of points:
1. If we accepted this, the Queen would be the head of our church. Think about that for all of you religious types (I'm atheist so it doesn't impact me).
2. Our armed forces would be involved in the wars the UK sanction. In fact, our armed forces would more than likely be dissolved completely, and the British armed forces would do our protecting.
3. The guards would more than likely be dissolved / converted into UK police.
4. We'd have to make yet another currency change - the last one was in 2000/2001 I think.
5. London would control us the way they control Scotland. Think about that - ALL of us know that Scotland is being screwed by London yet close to 20% of you would rather we were screwed in the same way than run things ourselves. That's shocking.

I understand there's a growing "Sky TV Generation" out there, who watch all of the UK shows & sports and therefore have a feeling of connection now with that sort of culture. I just wasn't aware it had grown to close to 20% on Boards.ie. Fascinating.

Barely There · 20-09-2014 4:02pm

DarkyHughes wrote: »

fair play man, I wont ask for but nice one for defending the Republic.

Get off the internet, you're embarrassing yourself.

mrty · 20-09-2014 4:04pm

Retrovertigo wrote: »

Name one that wasn't.

Does that make it right??

Dirty Dingus McGee · 20-09-2014 4:05pm

pedro1234 wrote: »

A radio show asked this question and of 2000 people who answered in Ireland, 87% of them said yes.

Yes to rejoining the UK or yes to staying as it is?

Jawgap · 20-09-2014 4:07pm

pedro1234 wrote: »

So this is a fun social experiment. I thought the overall public figure to a poll like this, if conducted door to door would have been around 10 - 12% nationwide.

A radio show asked this question and of 2000 people who answered in Ireland, 87% of them said yes.

I'm surprised Boards.ie is as high as around 20% - I knew there were a lot of people on here who want to be British but I didn't think it was that high.

A couple of points:
1. If we accepted this, the Queen would be the head of our church. Think about that for all of you religious types (I'm atheist so it doesn't impact me).
2. Our armed forces would be involved in the wars the UK sanction. In fact, our armed forces would more than likely be dissolved completely, and the British armed forces would do our protecting.
3. The guards would more than likely be dissolved / converted into UK police.
4. We'd have to make yet another currency change - the last one was in 2000/2001 I think.
5. London would control us the way they control Scotland. Think about that - ALL of us know that Scotland is being screwed by London yet close to 20% of you would rather we were screwed in the same way than run things ourselves. That's shocking.

I understand there's a growing "Sky TV Generation" out there, who watch all of the UK shows & sports and therefore have a feeling of connection now with that sort of culture. I just wasn't aware it had grown to close to 20% on Boards.ie. Fascinating.

There's no way we'd simply just hop back in to the Union - if we were to rejoin (a massive if), first thing that would have to go is the queen as head of state - it would have to be a federal republic.

Within that type of arrangement we could keep our Garda, participate in a shared defence and have a currency and banking union.

The easy way to control any executive would be to set up a strong upper house in the parliament with equal representation for each country.

Even then, it will never happen, but it's an interesting discussion.

mrty · 20-09-2014 4:07pm

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

A federal Union of the 4 great states who built the Empire. Ireland is unified and old tensions die, a new force to lead the way, two islands united. We're not European we're British and Irish Dammit!

Are you a bit slow?

pedro1234 · 20-09-2014 4:07pm

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Yes to rejoining the UK or yes to staying as it is?

Yes to rejoining. I was really surprised by that so I had to ask here to see what the opinion was on Boards as people are often accused of being West Brits. It's good to have some actual figures.

Karl Stein · 20-09-2014 4:07pm

Jawgap wrote: »

cue - people not understanding the history of the 'nation' construct - and in particular the fact that it only arose in the early 19th Century before being applied retrospectively........

That's 'nation state' not nation.

Dirty Dingus McGee · 20-09-2014 4:08pm

pedro1234 wrote: »

Yes to rejoining. I was really surprised by that so I had to ask here to see what the opinion was on Boards as people are often accused of being West Brits. It's good to have some actual figures.

What radio show was this?

DarkyHughes · 20-09-2014 4:12pm

DLMA23 wrote: »

FYI, I'm no armchair republican, I put my beliefs where my mouth is, I was released under the GFA in 2000

Fortunately not every royalist/loyalist is a smug/ ****-stirring keyboard warrior & I can say that I have sat down with some of my former enemies & even found a grudging respect/friendship for a few

Yeah for some reason former UVF people like David Ervine & Billy Hutchinson seem more likeable & reasonable than "constitutional" loyalists like Paisley, Robinson, Dodds & Allistar.

Which says a lot about Loyalism as these UVF people have probably carried out some of the worst crimes in IRISH history.

--LOS-- · 20-09-2014 4:13pm

you'd have to let them know it's not part of the union first

The_Valeyard · 20-09-2014 4:13pm

georgiecasey wrote: »

i can't believe the Yes is at 20%

who are you people?!

British immigrants?

Jawgap · 20-09-2014 4:13pm

Karl Stein wrote: »

That's 'nation state' not nation.

No it's 'nation' - the opening chapter of Peter Heather's Empires and Barbarians: The Fall of Rome and the Birth of Europe. - summarises it quite well.

The nation state construct goes back further - to the mid-17th C and the Peace of Westphalia - it's a political construct.

Nation/nationhood is a social and cultural construct........

Henry Sidney · 20-09-2014 4:14pm

No to reject rejoining the Union

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Yeah for some reason former UVF people like David Ervine & Billy Hutchinson seem more likeable & reasonable than "constitutional" loyalists like Paisley, Robinson, Dodds & Allistar.

Which says a lot about Loyalism as these UVF people have probably carried out some of the worst crimes in IRISH history.

Oh yeah, a lovely bunch of lads...

If the UK asked Ireland to rejoin the Union, how would you vote?

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