Spirit of Ireland - A bright spark in today's economic gloom?

nokia69 · 21-01-2013 10:15pm

4.legs.good wrote: »

US production was set to have "peaked" yet are now on course to surpass Saudi Arabia thanks to new drilling technologies.
While gas across the puddle is now 4-5x cheaper thanks to fracking and US economy shows signs of growth and jobs returning from places like China, while we here in Ireland are now what 5 years in a recession?

2012 is over and gone please stop with the end of the world crap, this thread is years old yet SOI is still on the same shelf as Steorns perpetual energy machine

oil production in the lower 48 states of the US did peak in the early 70s, this is a simple FACT that NOBODY disagres with, in 1956 the man in the video above looked at the rate of oil production and reserve growth, it was then easy for him to figure out that the US peak would be in the early 70s, short of a major war in saudi arabia they won't surpass the saudis anytime soon

if you have access to all the data its not hard to figure out the date for the world peak, but the saudis ect keep the data secret

in the video above hubbert says the peak could happen around 2005 he won't be out by much IMO

the discovery of new oil fields peaked in 1965 so it seems lightly that we are closer to peak oil now than ever before

I never said anything about the end of the world, peak oil just means we have used half of the oil there is still over 100 years of oil production left, but the post peak oil will cost far more than the pre peak oil

D7 · 21-01-2013 10:25pm

Being abroad at the moment I am glad to hear that SOI has become active again
The opportunities are overwhelming especially when you consider the existing natural resources that abound the island and the intellectual knowledge that is also resident ....................it just needs the trust and commitment of the Govt and financial institutions, and their promise to inwardly invest and attract additional capital, as opposed to placing funds elsewhere on the planet.
We have food remember and can feed nations, we dont want to be dependent on the energy which is the commercial asset of multinational interests.:eek:

4.legs.good · 09-02-2013 5:19pm

nokia69 wrote: »

oil production in the lower 48 states of the US did peak in the early 70s, this is a simple FACT that NOBODY disagres with, in 1956 the man in the video above looked at the rate of oil production and reserve growth, it was then easy for him to figure out that the US peak would be in the early 70s, short of a major war in saudi arabia they won't surpass the saudis anytime soon

if you have access to all the data its not hard to figure out the date for the world peak, but the saudis ect keep the data secret

in the video above hubbert says the peak could happen around 2005 he won't be out by much IMO

the discovery of new oil fields peaked in 1965 so it seems lightly that we are closer to peak oil now than ever before

I never said anything about the end of the world, peak oil just means we have used half of the oil there is still over 100 years of oil production left, but the post peak oil will cost far more than the pre peak oil

oil

gas

so much for being "over the peak"

Waestrel · 09-02-2013 6:50pm

4.legs.good wrote: »

oil

gas

so much for being "over the peak"

I think oil "production" noted above may relate to imported oil being refined in the US. I seriously doubt they have stumbled upon new multi million barrel oil fields in the last few years .

As for Shale gas, its anyone guess how sustainable that is going forward a few years.

4.legs.good · 09-02-2013 7:04pm

Waestrel wrote: »

I think oil "production" noted above may relate to imported oil being refined in the US. I seriously doubt they have stumbled upon new multi million barrel oil fields in the last few years .

As for Shale gas, its anyone guess how sustainable that is going forward a few years.

Nope they are quite literary pumping more out of the ground using new technologies
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323468604578249621718888086.html

U.S. oil production grew more in 2012 than in any year in the history of the domestic industry, which began in 1859, and is set to surge even more in 2013.

Daily crude output averaged 6.4 million barrels a day last year, up a record 779,000 barrels a day from 2011 and hitting a 15-year high, according to the American Petroleum Institute, a trade group.

It is the biggest annual jump in production since Edwin Drake drilled the first commercial oil well in Titusville, Pa., two years before the Civil War began.

The U.S. Energy Information Administration predicts 2013 will be an even bigger year, with average daily production expected to jump by 900,000 barrels a day.

If the Saudis and Russians ever make use of this technology then we get even more oil

But most important story is the amount of gas being produced and how cheap it has gotten across the pond. More importantly for enviro fascists gas burns much cleaner than coal and oil which its displacing now, mind you thats not good enough! we are all better to go back to stoneage and live in caves.

Waestrel · 09-02-2013 8:47pm

4.legs.good wrote: »

Nope they are quite literary pumping more out of the ground using new technologies
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323468604578249621718888086.html

If the Saudis and Russians ever make use of this technology then we get even more oil

But most important story is the amount of gas being produced and how cheap it has gotten across the pond. More importantly for enviro fascists gas burns much cleaner than coal and oil which its displacing now, mind you thats not good enough! we are all better to go back to stone age and live in caves.

Fair enough on the oil point. However, no one is advocating going back to the stoneage. There is serious environmental issues with fossil fuel consumption, and with these new unconventional sources, extraction can be even messier than ever.

Capt'n Midnight · 09-02-2013 9:19pm

Waestrel wrote: »

extraction can be even messier than ever.

Extraction can use more energy than ever

you can imagine a stage where the energy used to extract fossil fuel and uranium would come from renewables

at that point fossil fuel / uranium becomes "storage" for renewables

How much energy would we have saved by insisting on the new 2011 energy standards during the boom when we were awash with money and where it would only have been a fraction of the house price ?

Dan Jaman · 09-02-2013 11:47pm

Yep, I see another oil company shill has crawled out of the woodwork.

Heroditas · 10-02-2013 12:58pm

Dan Jaman wrote: »

Yep, I see another oil company shill has crawled out of the woodwork.

Ah I see the environmental version of Godwin's Law has just been invoked.

4.legs.good · 14-02-2013 10:24am

Its rather childish to revert to name calling @Dan Jaman

I have walked this planet for a long time and for as long as I can remember there were people saying the end of <insert resource) is around the corner and we are all doomed doomed I tell you. Like I said 2012 is over please stop with end of the world craick.

The fact is new technologies are leading to a boom in hydrocarbon extraction, what wasnt possible before now is. Personally I think the world would be better going nuclear than continue to rely on hydrocarbons (and who knows maybe commercially viable fusion is eventually cracked before I die) but I do realise that a shift to gas is better for environment than burning oil and coal.

Anyways someone mentioned the price of crude going up (The price of petrol at pumps here is not a good benchmarch considering most of the price is taxes and taxes on taxes!). The price in $ and € is sure rising over they years

BUT thats due to paper currencies devaluating as more paper is printed and zeros are added in quantative easing etc

taking a look at this graph of price of crude measured in gold for an illustration of currencies inflating

Dan Jaman · 14-02-2013 10:33am

And what's going to happen when the crude really does come to an end? All this wave of new extraction is a puff of wind, simply putting off the day of reckoning and we will have nothing in place for energy greedy population we have - not so much worldwide, but in the developed and developing nations.
That's why I'm suspicious of all the creatures who appear and scorn ideas like SoI and promote the 'new wonderful extraction' technologies.
Some of these people are, without doubt, oil-company shareholders, employees, and others with a vested interest in rubbishing new alternative technologies.
Are you?

4.legs.good · 14-02-2013 10:52am

So instead of debating once again you try to personally attack me?
Any mods here? is that the level of debate that's allowed here?

Read up on some basic economic history:

the stone age didnt end because they ran out of stones,
neither did the bronze and iron age,
or for that matter industrial revolution didnt stop in its tracks because they ran out of coal (tho they had their "omg coal is ending" people)

the hydrocarbon age wont end either because we run out of hydrocarbons, there still be coal, oil and gas being extracted (especially for fertiliser and chemical uses) hundreds of years from now

considering that at today's technological level we have enough proven reserves of Thorium and Uranium to power the world for thousands of years at current consumption rates, i am not too worried, especially with the worlds population finally peaking in few decades if current demographic trends continue.

when theres a need theres a way, hell maybe they build this Spirit of Ireland by then

Capt'n Midnight · 14-02-2013 1:41pm

4.legs.good wrote: »

The fact is new technologies are leading to a boom in hydrocarbon extraction, what wasn't possible before now is.

tight oil

it's not just the new technologies, it's that because of the high price of fuel they are now cost effective. Look up EROEI to see how inefficient many of these techniques are, at present they are subisidised because they don't have to pay for the carbon tax on the fuel used in extraction.

Personally I think the world would be better going nuclear than continue to rely on hydrocarbons (and who knows maybe commercially viable fusion is eventually cracked before I die) but I do realise that a shift to gas is better for environment than burning oil and coal.

Nuclear provides less than 1/7th of electricity

so if we have 70 years of cheap uranium left at current usage then we'd only have 10 years left if we tried to make all our electricity from nuclear. It takes decades to pay off the loans to build the plants. - Also those figures are skewed because for the last decade or the nuclear fuel market was flooded with recycled Russian warheads.

and we use a lot more energy for transport and heat than for electricity, at this stage nuclear is less relevant than Hydro or Wind.

Anyways someone mentioned the price of crude going up (The price of petrol at pumps here is not a good benchmarch considering most of the price is taxes and taxes on taxes!). The price in $ and € is sure rising over they years

not any more
just an aside, there are people who can legally drink who were born after the last time excised duty increased on beer

Remove the VAT - (which is on everything) and compare the excise duty to the price of fuel ..

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/excise/duties/excise-duty-rates.html
Petrol 58.771 c/L - include carbon charge

BUT thats due to paper currencies devaluating as more paper is printed and zeros are added in quantative easing etc

taking a look at this graph of price of crude measured in gold for an illustration of currencies inflating
http://omg.wthax.org/Crude_1950.jpg

yeah...
they are two commodities that seem to track each other - both go up in when there is trouble in the middle east

compare gold to the average weekly wage or to the price of food and you'll get a very different graph.

4.legs.good · 23-02-2013 6:15pm

http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/11/pump-up-the-storage/

Some very interesting reading and plenty of figures ...

pumped storage to back renewables is a pipe dream (no pun intended)

Dan Jaman · 23-02-2013 9:17pm

4.legs.good wrote: »

So instead of debating once again you try to personally attack me?
Any mods here? is that the level of debate that's allowed here?

Sorry; I'm afraid your twisted knickers don't impress me.

Einhard · 24-02-2013 8:36pm

Dan Jaman wrote: »

Sorry; I'm afraid your twisted knickers don't impress me.

I don't think your contribution to the debate impresses anyone.

Darac · 17-03-2013 1:43pm

It's now been a year since SofI updated their website with the message

"All going well, watch this space, March 2012".

Anyone know if it is still 'going well'?

Capt'n Midnight · 17-03-2013 6:11pm

4.legs.good wrote: »

Dont forget that we had an agricultural revolution in last few decades and food is a much lower % of family expenses for everyone

Back in Nebuchadnezzar’s time food would have accounted for nearly 100% of the average person's expenditure.

It wasn't until the late middle ages when people could afford new clothes often enough for rags to be available to make paper, that and the use of eyeglasses were the preconditions for the development of printing.

I am pie · 04-09-2013 4:04pm

Where are we at with this? Any progress?

Capt'n Midnight · 04-09-2013 4:37pm

Unlikely as the cost of the interconnectors from Scotland / UK to the West of Ireland is similar to those going to Norway.

And Norway already have enough hydro that they don't need pumped storage. So construction costs are a fraction of ours.

Also we have a glut power stations for the next few years as we replace older ones with gas.

And overall it's cheaper to build extra renewables backed by gas than build pumped storage.

Where it gets interesting is when you can use excess electricity to produce hydrogen and put that in the gas mains.

dowlingm · 13-11-2013 9:04pm

It seems a significant contributor to this and other energy related threads may have passed on:
http://www.politics.ie/forum/feedback/218304-pat-gill-rip.html

Dan Jaman · 14-11-2013 1:37am

Very sorry to read that.
A most informative poster, a decent stick, and someone who really believed in what he was doing and not in it for the short term or filthy lucre.
RIP, Pat.

Jim Martin · 14-11-2013 12:32pm

dowlingm wrote: »

It seems a significant contributor to this and other energy related threads may have passed on:
http://www.politics.ie/forum/feedback/218304-pat-gill-rip.html

For some reason, although logged in, I'm not allowed to read this! Mods - Have I upset somebody?

Capt'n Midnight · 15-11-2013 10:35am

Solar power is killing off pumped storage in Germany because because there is no longer as much demand at peak , and because of the way incentives are given. Operating hours are a tenth what they were back in 2009 so you can imagine how the economics have changed.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/high-costs-and-errors-of-german-transition-to-renewable-energy-a-920288-2.html

an ironic result of the green energy expansion is that many of the reliable pumped storage stations could be forced out of the market. There are roughly 20 of these power plants in Germany, with Vattenfall being the most important operator. The plants were very profitable for utilities for decades, but now the business has become highly unreliable. Dresden is a case in point.

When it's sunny and people are most likely to head to the lake, solar power is abundant and electricity prices drop. This means the pumped storage station earns less money, so the power plant is shut off. In 2009, for example, the turbines in Niederwartha were in operation for 2,784 hours. Last year, Vattenfall ran the facility for only 277 hours. "Price peaks that last only a few hours aren't enough to utilize the plant to full capacity," says Gunnar Groebler, head of Vattenfall's German hydro division.
...
All this gives credence to the claim that Germany's energy reform is its own worst enemy. Despite the erratic expansion of wind and solar projects, the backup power capacity those projects require is lacking. One study found that Germany's expansion of renewable energy will require additional storage capacity for 20 to 30 billion kilowatt-hours by 2050. So far the storage capacity has grown by little more than 70 million kilowatt-hours. And hardly anyone is interested in maintaining the existing storage facilities.

marksmarks · 21-11-2013 7:36pm

Natural hydro energy ltd or spirit of Ireland whichever one wants to call them spent three years in Donegal working on the proposal in one of the valleys close to the sea. At first most people welcomed there project and the benefits it would bring to the area and according to the promotors the whole of Ireland.
However as time went on and the story kept changing and as the approach was very unprofessional ,people became wary of the promotors. Glossy brochures were produced , millions were promised yearly to parish councils and affected landowners were to be well rewarded. Most of the landowner discussions were held with there community relations director called Mark who was supposedly a engineer and a member of mensa such was his intelligence. In reality he was a bluffer who runs a little shop in inner city Dublin. Solicators were appointed to liase with landowners and landowners were advised from the beginning to get independent financial advice as Nhe lth would not cover this.From the beginning of this year all contact with spirit of Ireland ceased, calls were not answered, emails the same, it seems the boys at the top were bluffers as well and had there own financial woes as the founder was hit by a 13million judgement by ulster bank.
The moral of the story here is not to believe what you hear from these green energy spindoctors as this particular outfit has left a lot of very bitter and out of pocket individuals up in Donegal. Thank you for taking the time to read this and beware of anybody associated with the said companys.

Dan Jaman · 22-11-2013 12:41am

Ah, a one-post Wonder.
Must be the Spirit of the Age.

marksmarks · 22-11-2013 12:59am

Two post wonder and every word so true.

bawn79 · 18-01-2016 1:18pm

Has anyone seen the proposed pumped storage in the Silvermines in Tipperary. Is this pretty much the same proposal as the Spirit of Ireland except in a brownfield area?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/silvermines-electricity-power-plant-to-generate-360mw-in-tipperary-375716.html

Dan Jaman · 18-01-2016 1:39pm

bawn79 wrote: »

Has anyone seen the proposed pumped storage in the Silvermines in Tipperary. Is this pretty much the same proposal as the Spirit of Ireland except in a brownfield area?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/silvermines-electricity-power-plant-to-generate-360mw-in-tipperary-375716.html

Pumped storage itself is nothing new, and this is just a small one of those. Quite a good one, imo, as it's using scabby ground that nobody had any use or idea what to do with. I suppose a previous generation would have filled it in with old cookers, fridges and waste.

Reuben1210 · 19-01-2016 2:17am

bawn79 wrote: »

Has anyone seen the proposed pumped storage in the Silvermines in Tipperary. Is this pretty much the same proposal as the Spirit of Ireland except in a brownfield area?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/silvermines-electricity-power-plant-to-generate-360mw-in-tipperary-375716.html

Whatever happened the planned one in Mayo? Did all these plans get scuppered? Or are they linked in some way to this new Renua party?, as I see some of the same faces and names from the spirit of Ireland initiative...

Spirit of Ireland - A bright spark in today's economic gloom?

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