Illegal Driver in club matchplay?

TheDoc · 07-07-2014 3:42pm

Also just caught the OPs response there in relation to the committees response.

That is disgusting stuff.

Montgolfier · 07-07-2014 5:58pm

Why should the OP have to prove it? He called the rule on him.
The guy went into the pro shop but never proved his innocence when he had the chance.
He left the course with the driver in question.

SaveOurLyric · 07-07-2014 6:48pm

Montgolfier wrote: »

Why should the OP have to prove it? He called the rule on him.
The guy went into the pro shop but never proved his innocence when he had the chance.
He left the course with the driver in question.

Nonsense. Of course he has to prove it. You cannot make allegations without external proof if the opponent denies it and simply expect to be taken at your word and the he not. Burden to prove is with the accuser.

The committee has made the correct, and only, decision they could. They listened to the complaint, and checked with the accused. He gave an explanation. They cannot 'convict' him simply because it disagrees with the OP contention. (Not that I doubt the OP at all. The opponent sounds like a real scoundrel. But unfortunately the chance has probably passed to catch him in this instance).

tayto lover · 07-07-2014 6:54pm

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Nonsense. Of course he has to prove it. You cannot make allegations without external proof if the opponent denies it and simply expect to be taken at your word and the he not. Burden to prove is with the accuser.

The committee has made the correct, and only, decision they could. They listened to the complaint, and checked with the accused. He gave an explanation. They cannot 'convict' him simply because it disagrees with the OP contention. (Not that I doubt the OP at all. The opponent sounds like a real scoundrel. But unfortunately the chance has probably passed to catch him in this instance).

The OP should have gone into the pro-shop with the alleged cheat and had the employee note the make and model of club used. He now has no proof.

SaveOurLyric · 07-07-2014 6:59pm

tayto lover wrote: »

The OP should have gone into the pro-shop with the alleged cheat and had the employee note the make and model of club used. He now has no proof.

Easy in hindsight I guess. I wouldnt blame the OP. It not an easy situation to get right when you are thrown into it thinking you were just going for a fun round of golf.

namloc1980 · 07-07-2014 7:08pm

tayto lover wrote: »

The OP should have gone into the pro-shop with the alleged cheat and had the employee note the make and model of club used. He now has no proof.

Unfortunately the OP has now been put in the eye of the storm by this guy's lack of honesty and integrity. OP has to now take this to a full committee hearing but knowing he has little chance to win. Hopefully this guy gets hammered in the next round 10&8 with his 'Titleist' driver!!

Montgolfier · 07-07-2014 7:09pm

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Nonsense. Of course he has to prove it. You cannot make allegations without external proof if the opponent denies it and simply expect to be taken at your word and the he not. Burden to prove is with the accuser.

The committee has made the correct, and only, decision they could. They listened to the complaint, and checked with the accused. He gave an explanation. They cannot 'convict' him simply because it disagrees with the OP contention. (Not that I doubt the OP at all. The opponent sounds like a real scoundrel. But unfortunately the chance has probably passed to catch him in this instance).

It's not nonsense!!
Why didn't the accused clear his name at the pro shop?
If this your opinion then no rule is sacred, all any cheat has to do is deny deny.

Of course there is an onus on the accused to prove his innocence after the accusation.
Instead he said how dare you accuse me and left.
The next time someone claims I played the wrong ball, should I say how dare you!!! Or just show them the ball.

This is not a court of law it's a question of integrity and that didn't show any.

SaveOurLyric · 07-07-2014 7:19pm

Montgolfier wrote: »

It's not nonsense!!
Why didn't the accused clear his name at the pro shop?
If this your opinion then no rule is sacred, all any cheat has to do is deny deny.

Of course there is an onus on the accused to prove his innocence after the accusation.
Instead he said how dare you accuse me and left.
The next time someone claims I played the wrong ball, should I say how dare you!!! Or just show them the ball.

This is not a court of law it's a question of integrity and that didn't show any.

Because he is a cheat and chose a much better course of action in that context : fly off the handle, be insulted, outraged, and storm off with the evidence. Well played.

It could quickly end up in a real court of law if you kept up that line. Neither fun nor cheap.

mister gullible · 07-07-2014 7:50pm

Because the guy had a non conforming club the OP had the options of calling it straight away or saying after the round "well done but I think your driver is non conforming - maybe you should check it before the next match" (which is what I might have done). In any case the OP was right whichever he did. Many of us had to spend a few quid to change our drivers a long time ago in order to play by the rules! Good second hand conforming drivers can be had very cheaply now. If the opponent was genuine he would have said "Jeez I didn't know it was non conforming, what should we do?" instead of which he turns out to be (apparently) a bully, liar and a cheapskate. OP cannot make much more progress on this in my opinion and should probably let it drop. Hopefully his fellow members will know already what his opponent is like. I'd stay in the club but I'd certainly wait for an opportunity to trip the inglorious b.. up!

Dayor Knight · 07-07-2014 8:40pm

This case raises an interesting question. In a matchplay competition, what happens if two opponent can't agree on who won a match, for any reason, e.g. He put a ball out of bounds on the ninth and lost the hole...... No I didn't, I had a par and win the hole. Sounds ludicrous, but in way it's like what has now happened here. How can anyone say who us telling the truth. Can a result be declared based on one parties story only??

Russman · 07-07-2014 9:00pm

Dayor Knight wrote: »

This case raises an interesting question. In a matchplay competition, what happens if two opponent can't agree on who won a match, for any reason, e.g. He put a ball out of bounds on the ninth and lost the hole...... No I didn't, I had a par and win the hole. Sounds ludicrous, but in way it's like what has now happened here. How can anyone say who us telling the truth. Can a result be declared based on one parties story only??

I've no idea how that situation, however unlikely, would be resolved, can you imagine a club committee trying to sort it out ??:)
Fortunately or unfortunately (whichever way you look at it I guess), golf genuinely depends on the integrity of the players, there's no referees a la soccer, rugby etc. I think its a good thing. I'd hate to see the sport go the way of other sports where cheating is rife and accepted. Of course golf's not perfect and there are bad apples, but hopefully they stay a tiny minority.

decko11 · 07-07-2014 9:20pm

Russman wrote: »

I've no idea how that situation, however unlikely, would be resolved, can you imagine a club committee trying to sort it out ??:)
Fortunately or unfortunately (whichever way you look at it I guess), golf genuinely depends on the integrity of the players, there's no referees a la soccer, rugby etc. I think its a good thing. I'd hate to see the sport go the way of other sports where cheating is rife and accepted. Of course golf's not perfect and there are bad apples, but hopefully they stay a tiny minority.

Why then is the comp sec taking one competitors word against another in this case

It seems a total cop out - at a minimum both should be interviewed by a sub committee

tayto lover · 07-07-2014 9:28pm

decko11 wrote: »

Why then is the comp sec taking one competitors word against another in this case

It seems a total cop out - at a minimum both should be interviewed by a sub committee

It is up to the accuser to prove the case. No proof = no case.

Golfnut77 · 07-07-2014 10:01pm

TheDoc wrote: »

I'm one of those that tends to let things like this slide, but mention it either when I notice it, or afterwards. It's one of those things though thats different between players.

Really? I always call players when their breaking a rule, how else will they learn?

Although one time I was playing with a guy and I went in a water hazard and took a drop using approximate line of sight since I couldn't be sure where it crossed since it was a snap hook, this ended up putting me on the other side of the water hazard and within the rules as I understood them, I was relatively new to golf at the time and my playing partner told me I was incorrect and needed to go back from point of entry ( this meant not keeping point of entry between me and the flag ) he was adament and so I took his advice, checked afterwards and I was initially correct and so incurred 2 stroke penalty for taking his advice.

So when I pull someone on a rule it's only when I'm 100% sure as I wouldn't want to be giving incorrect information.

Dtoffee · 08-07-2014 12:24am

Just a quick question for all those who would ignore a player / opponent using an illegal club ..... what would it take for you to call foul? does it depend on the comp? or does it depend on the player in question?

I have been on both sides of this fence and certainly take no exception to any opponent bringing up the rules during a match / competition. I believe it is in the interests of all golfers to know and impose the rules of the game at all times. I called a guy for fudging once, he was marking his ball from the side and then replacing the ball in front of the marker ..... max gain about half an inch but it was his thing and he went balistic, missing putt after putt once it was called. I later found out that loads of people knew he did it, but were afraid to call it and it became an established practice for him. I think some players just get into bad habits and it is up to all of us call a foul no matter how minor it is, because the integrity of the game needs to be maintained.

slave1 · 08-07-2014 2:18am

OP, this has turned nasty and I honestly don't think you have independant proof of the club in question. However your integrity is in question and if I were you I would formally (in writing) write to the officer in question and ask what is their formal appeal route as you wish to take the matter further.
I would not at this stage make any other comment.
I do think that when the time comes you need to stress that your opponent was asked to show the club in question to an independant third party but refused to do so and left the club without fulfilling your request.
You also need to decide on how far you're willing to go with it.
I know of one or two occasions where folk were effectively bullied on the course and when they reported the matter were not looked on at all negatively by the members (can't say same for committee).
Whatever you decide to do its just a damn shame that someone could act in this manner, a liar and a cheat has to be the worst qualities I despise in a person.
Chin up.

GreeBo · 08-07-2014 7:56am

Montgolfier wrote: »

It's not nonsense!!
Why didn't the accused clear his name at the pro shop?
If this your opinion then no rule is sacred, all any cheat has to do is deny deny.

Of course there is an onus on the accused to prove his innocence after the accusation.
Instead he said how dare you accuse me and left.
The next time someone claims I played the wrong ball, should I say how dare you!!! Or just show them the ball.

This is not a court of law it's a question of integrity and that didn't show any.

Huh?
How could it work your way? Of course the accuser has to prove his case!

I saw you using an illegal wedge the other day, and you putted anchored and your driver had a COR of 100.

Now, go prove me wrong and let us know how you get on.

gokster · 08-07-2014 8:41am

Unfortunately the OP has become of victim of a major difficulty within golf (not sure if its particular to ireland) but there is mentality to take golf disputes to the high court which makes clubs very reluctant to intervene unless there is a cast iron case.

When you have the ridiculous situation of a person taking a club to court over a handicap cut you can see why clubs will be nervous in terms of the negative publicity and not insignificant cost of taking on these guys.

I know of a number of instances in one on one situations where 'cheats' have not been tackled as there is no proof. The OP was never going to win his match in this case and the only way would have been to take the opportunity to ask the question in front of a witness who was prepared to make a statement on the issue.

Its a great disappointment that clubs who should be guardians of the rules of golf and protecting the golfer but can't do that while the legal route is left open to these people who ruin it for so many others.

Russman · 08-07-2014 9:08am

Dtoffee wrote: »

Just a quick question for all those who would ignore a player / opponent using an illegal club ..... what would it take for you to call foul? does it depend on the comp? or does it depend on the player in question?

For me it depends on the circumstances. I wouldn't really ignore anything in strokeplay, I'd have to be absolutely 100% sure I saw something though, but in matchplay, as there is an element of discretion and judgement built into the rules, I'd judge each situation on its merits.

If it materially and undoubtedly effects the match, or my opponents playing, I'd be more likely to call something as opposed to a breach that is questionable or tenuous as to whether it had any impact. eg in a match I've ignored a guy knocking a tiny leaf off a tree on his practice swing, he had no idea he did it and there was nothing to be gained from running over penalising him. Now, if he'd knocked a branch off I might judge it differently.
Generally I'd do my best not to call something in a match, unless its really taking the p1ss as I don't need the aggro that always follows regardless.

Whilst not advocating breaking the rules, I'd hate to turn into one of those people who you just know are only waiting to see an infringement so they can call it.

Russman · 08-07-2014 9:17am

gokster wrote: »

Unfortunately the OP has become of victim of a major difficulty within golf (not sure if its particular to ireland) but there is mentality to take golf disputes to the high court which makes clubs very reluctant to intervene unless there is a cast iron case.

When you have the ridiculous situation of a person taking a club to court over a handicap cut you can see why clubs will be nervous in terms of the negative publicity and not insignificant cost of taking on these guys.

I know of a number of instances in one on one situations where 'cheats' have not been tackled as there is no proof. The OP was never going to win his match in this case and the only way would have been to take the opportunity to ask the question in front of a witness who was prepared to make a statement on the issue.

Its a great disappointment that clubs who should be guardians of the rules of golf and protecting the golfer but can't do that while the legal route is left open to these people who ruin it for so many others.

Absolutely.
Its not really the same as the op's situation, but we had a case a long number of years ago when spotters were sent out on the course to subtly monitor a particular team in a team event. The scores on the card didn't match up with what had been observed on a few holes, but when challenged about it they took the route of "ohh yeah, jeez, you're right, that was a 6 not a 5, sorry, my mistake...." What do you do ?
Very hard to "prove" cheating in this day and age, with the legal eagles never too far away. I should add that 2 members of that team genuinely hadn't a clue there was anything untoward going on.

spacecoyote · 08-07-2014 9:29am

Russman wrote: »

For me it depends on the circumstances. I wouldn't really ignore anything in strokeplay, I'd have to be absolutely 100% sure I saw something though, but in matchplay, as there is an element of discretion and judgement built into the rules, I'd judge each situation on its merits.

If it materially and undoubtedly effects the match, or my opponents playing, I'd be more likely to call something as opposed to a breach that is questionable or tenuous as to whether it had any impact. eg in a match I've ignored a guy knocking a tiny leaf off a tree on his practice swing, he had no idea he did it and there was nothing to be gained from running over penalising him. Now, if he'd knocked a branch off I might judge it differently.
Generally I'd do my best not to call something in a match, unless its really taking the p1ss as I don't need the aggro that always follows regardless.

Whilst not advocating breaking the rules, I'd hate to turn into one of those people who you just know are only waiting to see an infringement so they can call it.

Just an FYI, there's no infringement for clipping a single leaf on a practice swing, it has to be deemed to be improving your lie to be subject to a penalty

newport2 · 08-07-2014 9:32am

Russman wrote: »

Absolutely.
Its not really the same as the op's situation, but we had a case a long number of years ago when spotters were sent out on the course to subtly monitor a particular team in a team event. The scores on the card didn't match up with what had been observed on a few holes, but when challenged about it they took the route of "ohh yeah, jeez, you're right, that was a 6 not a 5, sorry, my mistake...." What do you do ?
Very hard to "prove" cheating in this day and age, with the legal eagles never too far away. I should add that 2 members of that team genuinely hadn't a clue there was anything untoward going on.

This. It's amazing how many grown men lose the ability to count past 5 when they take up golf......

ForeRight · 08-07-2014 9:33am

You only have to look at that case from the hermitage couple of years ago to see how hard it is to confront anyone in a golf club regarding cheating/handicaps etc

Law suit for a million euro over his handicap being cut on observation or something along those lines as far as I remember.

Slicemeister · 08-07-2014 10:14am

spacecoyote wrote: »

Just an FYI, there's no infringement for clipping a single leaf on a practice swing, it has to be deemed to be improving your lie to be subject to a penalty

Apologies for taking this OT OP,can you quote that rule please? News to me too. Thanks.

SnowDrifts · 08-07-2014 10:18am

Slicemeister wrote: »

Apologies for taking this OT OP,can you quote that rule please? News to me too. Thanks.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-13/#d13-2-0.5

Q.Rule 13-2 prohibits a player from improving certain areas. What does "improve" mean?

A.In the context of Rule 13-2, "improve" means to change for the better so that the player gains a potential advantage with respect to the position or lie of his ball, the area of his intended stance or swing, his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or the area in which he is to drop or place a ball. Therefore, merely changing an area protected by Rule 13-2 will not be a breach of Rule 13-2 unless it creates such a potential advantage for the player in his play.

Examples of changes that are unlikely to create such a potential advantage are if a player:

....................

>accidentally knocks down several leaves from a tree in his area of intended swing with a practice swing, but there are still so many leaves or branches remaining that the area of intended swing has not been materially affected

blackwhite · 08-07-2014 10:20am

Slicemeister wrote: »

Apologies for taking this OT OP,can you quote that rule please? News to me too. Thanks.

Decisions related to rule 13-2

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=13&subRuleNum=2&decisionId=440BC525-92A9-46AA-A44C-F56E4D9CACC5

In the context of Rule 13-2, "improve" means to change for the better so that the player gains a potential advantage with respect to the position or lie of his ball, the area of his intended stance or swing, his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or the area in which he is to drop or place a ball. Therefore, merely changing an area protected by Rule 13-2 will not be a breach of Rule 13-2 unless it creates such a potential advantage for the player in his play.
Examples of changes that are unlikely to create such a potential advantage are if a player:
repairs a small pitch-mark on his line of play five yards in front of his ball prior to making a 150-yard approach shot from through the green;
accidentally knocks down several leaves from a tree in his area of intended swing with a practice swing, but there are still so many leaves or branches remaining that the area of intended swing has not been materially affected; or
whose ball lies in thick rough 180 yards from the green, walks forward and pulls strands of grass on his line of play and tosses them in the air to determine the direction of the wind.

EDIT - Snowdrifts beat me to it

Montgolfier · 08-07-2014 10:56am

GreeBo wrote: »

Huh?
How could it work your way? Of course the accuser has to prove his case!

I saw you using an illegal wedge the other day, and you putted anchored and your driver had a COR of 100.

Now, go prove me wrong and let us know how you get on.

What should he do, wrestle the driver off the guy?
All I'm saying is every other rule, that you may break doesn't have to be proven. How could it? You accidentally grounded your club in a hazard. Response would be "no I didn't prove it."

Shady Tady · 08-07-2014 11:20am

I'm not one for backing down normally but I don't see how the OP can win this one in the long run. His aim now should be to preserve his integrity and turn a difficult situation to his advantage. The OP knows the club was illegal, the other player knows it was illegal, the committee know it but won't / can't deal with it and the club membership will deep down know it was. I'd write back to the committee and stand by my allegation, I'd note their reluctance to deal with it and point out to them that they are letting the membership of the club and the ethos of the game down and the integrity of their club cup. I leave it at that and move on. I'd gladly face any of them in the clubhouse and hold my head up high, move on you are not the one who did wrong! Go win the captains prize!

Montgolfier · 08-07-2014 11:32am

Shady Tady wrote: »

I'm not one for backing down normally but I don't see how the OP can win this one in the long run. His aim now should be to preserve his integrity and turn a difficult situation to his advantage. The OP knows the club was illegal, the other player knows it was illegal, the committee know it but won't / can't deal with it and the club membership will deep down know it was. I'd write back to the committee and stand by my allegation, I'd note their reluctance to deal with it and point out to them that they are letting the membership of the club and the ethos of the game down and the integrity of their club cup. I leave it at that and move on. I'd gladly face any of them in the clubhouse and hold my head up high, move on you are not the one who did wrong! Go win the captains prize!

+1 I agree, that makes a lot of sense.

newport2 · 08-07-2014 12:19pm

Montgolfier wrote: »

What should he do, wrestle the driver off the guy?
All I'm saying is every other rule, that you may break doesn't have to be proven. How could it? You accidentally grounded your club in a hazard. Response would be "no I didn't prove it."

That's golf though. If you see someone break the rules, I guess if they adamantly deny it, then it's your word against their's unless there was a witness that backs you up.

The OP's opponent cheated. He could just have easily accused the OP of cheating had the OP won fairly, making up some breach of a rule during the round. Then what? DQ the OP although he never cheated?

Golf is very open to cheats taking advantage of it. Short of CCTV all over the course, there's no real solution other than to take people at their word.

Thankfully I've never come across anyone intentionally cheating in 15 years of the game. (except a few that intentionally return bad scores to increase handicap, but that's another story) That said, I've never checked an opponent's equipment and wouldn't recognise a non-conforming driver if I saw one.

(BTW, I think the committee should have smelt a rat when he said he was using a Cobra headcover on a Titleist driver. Who would do that? Like using a Toyota's body to house a Ferrari's engine IMO.....:D)

Freemount09 · 08-07-2014 12:54pm

This is unreal, and the villian is a right piece of work. His responses when queried by you has no place on a golf course and his personal traits have no place in a golf club.

I'm not sure you'll win this, either. But I'd deffo play hard ball now given his reactions.

If you are contemplating moving, I'd ask for half of this years subs to be returned cause you don't want to play in a club that supports this cheating. You mightn't get far with that either though but they might listen more to you if they're going to lose out more than what the whole comp brought in ?

If this was after hours you'd be told to blast him with P*ss and to be honest I don't think that is a bad option either !!

First Up · 08-07-2014 12:58pm

Freemount09 wrote: »

This is unreal, and the villian is a right piece of work. His responses when queried by you has no place on a golf course and his personal traits have no place in a golf club.

I'm not sure you'll win this, either. But I'd deffo play hard ball now given his reactions.

If you are contemplating moving, I'd ask for half of this years subs to be returned cause you don't want to play in a club that supports this cheating. You mightn't get far with that either though but they might listen more to you if they're going to lose out more than what the whole comp brought in ?

If this was after hours you'd be told to blast him with P*ss and to be honest I don't think that is a bad option either !!

It is grossly unfair to say the club "supports this cheating". Without verifiable evidence the club has no grounds on which to intervene. The time to sort it was on the day, when the club in question was in the guy's bag. Otherwise there is nothing to be done.

The only consolation is that he can no longer risk using his favourite driver.

Dayor Knight · 08-07-2014 12:58pm

tayto lover wrote: »

It is up to the accuser to prove the case. No proof = no case.

Yes, but didn't the OP see the non-conforming club.... in which case he in effect can't sign off on his opponent's score. So who is verifying the opponent's supposed win?

Dayor Knight · 08-07-2014 1:00pm

First Up wrote: »

It is grossly unfair to say the club "supports this cheating". Without verifiable evidence the club has no grounds on which to intervene. The time to sort it was on the day, when the club in question was in the guy's bag. Otherwise there is nothing to be done.

The only consolation is that he can no longer risk using his favourite driver.

Seems like the OP tried to sort it out on the day, but yer man stormed off. Good trick, that.

First Up · 08-07-2014 1:04pm

Dayor Knight wrote: »

Seems like the OP tried to sort it out on the day, but yer man stormed off. Good trick, that.

I don't think anyone is in doubt about the facts but proving it or expecting the club to intervene after the fact is a different matter. I presume the story is all over the club and the perpetrator is clearly identified. That is probably the best the OP can hope for. His own standing should not be damaged, in fact anyone whose opinion is worth valuing will support him.

newport2 · 08-07-2014 1:14pm

Dayor Knight wrote: »

Seems like the OP tried to sort it out on the day, but yer man stormed off. Good trick, that.

What's the solution?

How about if the OP had won, and his opponent (who we know is capable of cheating and has a brass neck) just said "no you didn't, I won" and wouldn't sign his card?

Who do we believe?

Ed Winchester · 08-07-2014 1:15pm

OP is very quiet on his thoughts about going forward. Very curious to hear what he's going to do now.

newport2 · 08-07-2014 1:16pm

First Up wrote: »

I don't think anyone is in doubt about the facts but proving it or expecting the club to intervene after the fact is a different matter. I presume the story is all over the club and the perpetrator is clearly identified. That is probably the best the OP can hope for. His own standing should not be damaged, in fact anyone whose opinion is worth valuing will support him.

This. You can only cheat so many times in golf and still be taken seriously

Dayor Knight · 08-07-2014 1:25pm

Golfnut77 wrote: »

Competition secretary got back to me this morning, he said it would indeed constitute disqualification, however he contacted my opponent and he has denied using the driver saying he had a Cobra headcover on a Titleist driver and the burden of proof is on me to show otherwise.

Astonished at his complete lack of integrity,from what could have been dismissed as just not knowing the rules, learning from it and moving on he has now crossed the line to outright lying and cheating. Obviously there's no way that I can prove that he used the driver, I held it in my hands and know for a fact it was the non conforming Cobra so essentially it's now my word against his and the Comp secretary said he has no option but to let the result stand.

I wonder how long it took him to make that one up. His every action suggests he's as guilty as sin. As other posters said, if had a titliest he could have shown that straight away. I reckon there are plenty in your club who know you're right, OP. Its a sad reflection on that guys morals, but I'm not sure it would be worth pursuing it any further. Maybe put in in writing to the committee, OP, and walk away. You've got the moral high ground anyway. It's only a game and if somebody wants to behave like that, I certainly never want to play or be in his company again. In fairness to the competition secretary, it's an awkward one for him too. Brings me back to the question though - who verifies a players win if his opponent witnesses a blatent rule breach and contests it? Sounds like a committee decision needed here though, because the OP saw the club, so accepting the story about the head cover is effectively saying the OP made it up ........ Which is the more likely?

Freemount09 · 08-07-2014 1:35pm

First Up wrote: »

It is grossly unfair to say the club "supports this cheating". Without verifiable evidence the club has no grounds on which to intervene. The time to sort it was on the day, when the club in question was in the guy's bag. Otherwise there is nothing to be done.

The only consolation is that he can no longer risk using his favourite driver.

I agree that the time to sort this was on the day.

But I think the club could do abit more than say "well we asked him and he said your wrong - end of story move on" !?

They should ask the guy working in the proshop his version of what went on when your man came in effing and blinding, how did that conversation go?
Ask the pro, did this guy working in the pro shop mention it to you about abit of a hoo haa when Joe pulled Bob up for using his Cobra ?

They should contact everyone that he played with the last 5 times he was down on timesheet and ask them by any chance do you remember what driver he used ? What colour was it ? What colour was shaft ? Did you notice anything unusual like that he used a TM driver with a cobra headcover ? etc.

They should organise a meeting between the 2 players in front of a pannel.

The info gathered from the above could be used to produce a simple report and presented at this meeting.

A member of the committee is a regular playing partner with this guy, if he doesn't stand up and admit to his guy using this Cobra club, then the club are supporting this cheating.

By the way the report doesn't have to be that long a one liner would do, kinda along the lines of "You are a dishonest lying Pr**k"

Dayor Knight · 08-07-2014 1:36pm

newport2 wrote: »

What's the solution?

How about if the OP had won, and his opponent (who we know is capable of cheating and has a brass neck) just said "no you didn't, I won" and wouldn't sign his card?

Who do we believe?

I don't have one, apart from my thoughts in previous post. It's an interesting one though. Perhaps someone more au fait with the procedures around disputed results will enlighten us...... ?

And of course is it worth it.......?

Goldenjohn · 08-07-2014 2:03pm

Freemount09 wrote: »

This is unreal, and the villian is a right piece of work. His responses when queried by you has no place on a golf course and his personal traits have no place in a golf club.

I'm not sure you'll win this, either. But I'd deffo play hard ball now given his reactions.

If you are contemplating moving, I'd ask for half of this years subs to be returned cause you don't want to play in a club that supports this cheating. You mightn't get far with that either though but they might listen more to you if they're going to lose out more than what the whole comp brought in ?

If this was after hours you'd be told to blast him with P*ss and to be honest I don't think that is a bad option either !!

Firstly I think you should ask for a personal hearing with the committee to explain the full facts from the match & request the other individual is brought before the committee to explain their version of events, its the least you deserve. Unfortunately I dont believe they will reverse their decision but it at least gives you the opportunity to air in a formal way the events as they unfolded for future records. In the case of an incident occuring in the future these will be on record for reference by the committee.

Given the character you are dealing with I dont think you can really do as highlighted above as this would give the opponent an excuse as to your motive for the accusation..."ah sure yer man was just trying to get his money back as he wanted to leave the club anyway". I would also say you should retract the offer of playing the beaten opponent from the previous round & just allow that guy or the next opponent a bye if successful as a way to demonstrate you have nothing to gain from his DQ other than upholding the integrity of the game & the competition.

Lastly fair play to you for calling it as it can be a difficult thing to do. I can only imagine you did'nt think there was such an issue at the time as you thought it was just a case of ignorance as opposed to blatant cheating. It just goes to show what we often perceive as ignorance is in a lot of cases just plain and simple cheating and proves why we should call ruling infringements when we see them rather than take the easy option and turn a blind eye. We all B1tch & moan about cheats & handicap builders but its up to us to do our bit to try & eliminate it.

I hope it comes to some sort of satisfactory conclusion for you. Best of luck

GreeBo · 08-07-2014 2:48pm

Montgolfier wrote: »

What should he do, wrestle the driver off the guy?
All I'm saying is every other rule, that you may break doesn't have to be proven. How could it? You accidentally grounded your club in a hazard. Response would be "no I didn't prove it."

Of course they have to be proven!
Otherwise, again, I could just call you on grounding your club; are you telling me that you'd just accept that, even if you didn't think you had?

rrpc · 08-07-2014 3:20pm

If it was me, I'd be making a point of shouting cheerily across the car park/bar/locker room "How's that Titleist driver going for you?" and "bet you're glad you got rid of that awful Cobra yoke" etc.

He'd start to develop that hunted look before long

Montgolfier · 08-07-2014 3:31pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Of course they have to be proven!
Otherwise, again, I could just call you on grounding your club; are you telling me that you'd just accept that, even if you didn't think you had?

I don't think that's an argument I would like to pursue. There is no right answer, game of integrity etc.
let's leave it there.

First Up · 08-07-2014 3:36pm

Montgolfier wrote: »

I don't think that's an argument I would like to pursue. There is no right answer, game of integrity etc.
let's leave it there.

I think the perpetrator has won a very minor battle but has comprehensively lost a much bigger war. His reputation is (or should be) in tatters. I think if I was the OP I would settle for that and hold my head high.

GreeBo · 08-07-2014 4:27pm

First Up wrote: »

I think the perpetrator has won a very minor battle but has comprehensively lost a much bigger war. His reputation is (or should be) in tatters. I think if I was the OP I would settle for that and hold my head high.

Reputation is in tatters in the OP's eyes, everyone else has to make up their own minds as to which of them is lying.

m r c · 08-07-2014 4:30pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Reputation is in tatters in the OP's eyes, everyone else has to make up their own minds as to which of them is lying.

You still using that old cobra Greebo? :-)

First Up · 08-07-2014 4:33pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Reputation is in tatters in the OP's eyes, everyone else has to make up their own minds as to which of them is lying.

I doubt that will be hard - or take long.

dak · 08-07-2014 4:54pm

Pity the Op didn't take a picture of the illegal club!

Illegal Driver in club matchplay?

Comments