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Illegal Driver in club matchplay?

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24567…13

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    #32
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭Russman


    Golfnut77 wrote: »
    I'd rather have the integrity to uphold the rules of the game as much as I can, if that alienates me from a pretentious so and so at my club who thinks he's above it all then so be it. It's not like I confronted him and accused him of cheating I just said 'look I'm almost certain that this is an illegal club', it probably would have been best if I waited until after the round but what's done is done, his reaction made it worse, if he believes it's not an illegal club then fair enough we can look it up afterwards but to go off on me like that was uncalled for.

    No doubt his reaction was 100% wrong and it would have been much better if he'd had the good grace to say "fair enough, I didn't know etc" and concede the hole, match, whatever. You absolutely did nothing wrong, but it's not something I would have done.


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    #33
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Golfnut77


    Russman wrote: »
    I'd wait and see if he anchored it when getting ready to use it, and if he did, I'd tell him before he actually hit a shot with it. I wouldn't wait til the 10th. No putter has been made illegal, it's the type of stroke that has been ruled on.

    I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect that anyone playing in a competition is using equipment that is within the rules of golf. It was only a few holes in that I was suspicious due to the sound of impact on his drives, then I noticed the Cobra headcover, the next tee that he hit driver on was the 10th so walking off the tee I asked to see it and noticed it was the illegal version.

    Golfers are responsible for their own equipment, if you buy a driver new or 2nd hand it's up to you to ensure it conforms to the rules of golf, I'm shocked that you wouldn't pull someone up on it although I'm sure you're not the only one. What's the point in having the rules if no one follows them? Would you pull a guy up if he kicks his ball on to the fairway? I hope you would.


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    #34
    ForeRight
    Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭ForeRight


    Russman wrote: »
    I'd wait and see if he anchored it when getting ready to use it, and if he did, I'd tell him before he actually hit a shot with it. I wouldn't wait til the 10th. No putter has been made illegal, it's the type of stroke that has been ruled on.



    Which I why I said long "anchored" putter not just long putter. Of course I was implying he was using the club illegally.


    Either way I can't see a difference in pulling someone over an illegal driver.

    I did say at the start the op went about this in slightly the wrong way but was right to pull him anyway.


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    #35
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭Russman


    ForeRight wrote: »
    Which I why I said long "anchored" putter not just long putter. Of course I was implying he was using the club illegally.


    Either way I can't see a difference in pulling someone over an illegal driver.

    I did say at the start the op went about this in slightly the wrong way but was right to pull him anyway.

    Fair enough, I agree he was correct, it's just not something I would do on the course.


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    #36
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭Russman


    Golfnut77 wrote: »
    I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect that anyone playing in a competition is using equipment that is within the rules of golf. It was only a few holes in that I was suspicious due to the sound of impact on his drives, then I noticed the Cobra headcover, the next tee that he hit driver on was the 10th so walking off the tee I asked to see it and noticed it was the illegal version.

    Golfers are responsible for their own equipment, if you buy a driver new or 2nd hand it's up to you to ensure it conforms to the rules of golf, I'm shocked that you wouldn't pull someone up on it although I'm sure you're not the only one. What's the point in having the rules if no one follows them? Would you pull a guy up if he kicks his ball on to the fairway? I hope you would.

    Do you check the list of conforming clubs every time you make a purchase ?

    Look, I'm not disagreeing with what you did, in no way were you incorrect. Lots of guys wouldn't want to win a match that way or cause hassle in a match like that.

    Of course I'd call someone on kicking their ball, I hardly ever kick mine unless its lying really badly ! :eek:FFS ! And yes, I know both are rule breaches and we don't get to decide what rules we follow etc etc etc. I couldn't be ar$ed looking it up, but I think it was mentioned in a thread yesterday that a player doesn't have to call a breach by his opponent if the opponent is unaware of it, or if there is no agreement to do it (something like that anyway) rule 2-5 or something I think.


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    #37
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    ForeRight wrote: »
    For the lads saying they wouldn't say anything to the guy using the illegal driver I'd ask what they would do next year if they played a club matchplay and on the first green the guy pulls out a long anchored putter?

    Nothing. The following year though, I would be looking closely at how he uses it. If illegally then I would call him on it.


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    #38
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Golfnut77


    Russman wrote: »
    Do you check the list of conforming clubs every time you make a purchase ?

    Of course I do, if I was just a club golfer that plays a few holes at night then I wouldn't care but I play in competitions and non conforming clubs are not allowed, when the grooves rule for irons comes in for amateurs I'll be changing my irons too and all golfers that play in competitions should do the same, if not then don't play competitions.


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    #39
    FixdePitchmark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,803 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    Golfnut77 wrote: »
    Of course I do, if I was just a club golfer that plays a few holes at night then I wouldn't care but I play in competitions and non conforming clubs are not allowed, when the grooves rule for irons comes in for amateurs I'll be changing my irons too and all golfers that play in competitions should do the same, if not then don't play competitions.

    It is an interesting one. Well done even knowing.

    I don't think it is reasonable for most amateurs to keep track of all this.
    In fact - I'd place blame with Golf companies and R&A that a leading company could end up with something on the shelf illegal.

    Anyway - you were right, but the situation could have ended in the different way (as you say)

    Interesting that he went mental so quick - any history , was there bad form in match ?


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    #40
    emo72
    Registered Users Posts: 6,205 ✭✭✭emo72


    lads i dont play golf, but i always believed that the rules are most important, and thats whats great about the sport. integrity is the most important thing and if you have broke the rules you disqualify yourself. i wouldn't believe that this is even up for debate:confused:

    top players have even lost tournaments for signing the wrong scorecards or having an extra club in the bag.


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    #41
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Golfnut77


    FixdePitchmark wrote: »
    It is an interesting one. Well done even knowing.

    I don't think it is reasonable for most amateurs to keep track of all this.
    In fact - I'd place blame with Golf companies and R&A that a leading company could end up with something on the shelf illegal.

    Anyway - you were right, but the situation could have ended in the different way (as you say)

    Interesting that he went mental so quick - any history , was there bad form in match ?

    Well the club wasn't made illegal it was the rule that came in 2006 or around then that made certain clubs with the 'spring effect' illegal, I imagine he had bought it prior to that and has used it since then even through the rule change so effectively he has been breaking the rule for years.

    They have a website where one can search and see if their driver conforms or not, it's a strange rule really since drivers these days go even further without the 'spring effect' but it's in the rules.

    No history at all, only knew him to see around the club. I wasn't looking forward to it though as I had been told he was very arrogant but I found him very polite and courteous, good etiquette and all the rest, gave each other a few putts early on just to set the mood. I can understand his reaction to some extent if he felt I was trying to get in his head since I was down in the match but as I said if he believed it was conforming he could have said lets check it out afterwards the fact he went nuts makes me think he probably knows it's non conforming and was just shocked that I called him on it.


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    #42
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Golfnut77


    emo72 wrote: »
    lads i dont play golf, but i always believed that the rules are most important, and thats whats great about the sport. integrity is the most important thing and if you have broke the rules you disqualify yourself. i wouldn't believe that this is even up for debate:confused:

    top players have even lost tournaments for signing the wrong scorecards or having an extra club in the bag.

    Completely agree, even Charles Howell this year was DQd after a round when a component of his SLDR driver came off on the range, the Taylormade guys said it was fine, the Tour deemed it non conforming and he was DQd. there's some odd rules in golf but if you don't want to play by them then don't play in a competition.


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    #43
    Guffy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,039 ✭✭✭Guffy


    Ah golf


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    #44
    FixdePitchmark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,803 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    If he was that sound up to that point - I believe that gives even more grounds - that the issue could have been dealt with at the end. And in an amicable way.

    Funny one.

    People can be so black and white in golf. But life - is a little more complex and grey. As somebody else said - is it worth causing conflict in a club and the rest of your days - for the sake of a not very important match ?

    If we play a game that is based on honesty and integrity - we have to then apply that assumption to everybody. In fact if the guy was sound , after a friendly chat - he would have been given the opportunity to dq himself.


    On a side note.

    I've noticed on the forum here - and on the course , that golfers can all have their own ideas and ideals and morals and attitudes to etiquette and slow play and walking on a line and handing in cards and clothes people wear and where they stand and talk of score or talking at all or moving or marking cards or etc etc.

    I'd almost be fearful of playing club golf at all. Is anybody actually perfect.


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    #45
    Rikand
    Registered Users Posts: 20,341 ✭✭✭✭Rikand


    If pulling someone for using an illegal driver in Amateur competition is what it takes you to win....


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    #46
    FixdePitchmark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,803 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    Rikand wrote: »
    If pulling someone for using an illegal driver in Amateur competition is what it takes you to win....

    ?

    That can be looked at in a few ways.

    explain.


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    #47
    Slicemeister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,526 ✭✭✭Slicemeister


    Would you have rescheduled a rematch if he had not acted the bollix?


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    #48
    Rikand
    Registered Users Posts: 20,341 ✭✭✭✭Rikand


    Actually, I've changed my mind when I re-read that he went on an expletive filled rant and wouldnt even shake your hand afterwards.

    Screw him.


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    #49
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    Rikand wrote: »
    If pulling someone for using an illegal driver in Amateur competition is what it takes you to win....

    To be fair I dont think anyone is justifying pulling someone on a rules infringement in order to win. As if they are unreasonably ruthless amoral human beings.
    But those in favour of it, are advocating doing so because being the rule, it is the right thing to do.


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    #50
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    Slicemeister wrote: »
    Would you have rescheduled a rematch if he had not acted the bollix?

    You cannot do that. It would be disqualification for both players if they decided to do so.


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    #51
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Golfnut77


    FixdePitchmark wrote: »
    If he was that sound up to that point - I believe that gives even more grounds - that the issue could have been dealt with at the end. And in an amicable way.

    Funny one.

    People can be so black and white in golf. But life - is a little more complex and grey. As somebody else said - is it worth causing conflict in a club and the rest of your days - for the sake of a not very important match ?

    If we play a game that is based on honesty and integrity - we have to then apply that assumption to everybody. In fact if the guy was sound , after a friendly chat - he would have been given the opportunity to dq himself.


    On a side note.

    I've noticed on the forum here - and on the course , that golfers can all have their own ideas and ideals and morals and attitudes to etiquette and slow play and walking on a line and handing in cards and clothes people wear and where they stand and talk of score or talking at all or moving or marking cards or etc etc.

    I'd almost be fearful of playing club golf at all. Is anybody actually perfect.

    In hindsight I should have left it until the end although I doubt I'd have gotten a better reaction.

    I'd rather call someone on it than sit back knowing they're breaking the rules, I've no doubt that countless others at my club and clubs all over the country break the rules all the time not just with equipment but blatant cheating. I'm shocked that the majority on this thread would say nothing, that's part of the problem, when you're playing with someone else you have an obligation to the integrity of the game and others that are playing in the competition to call your playing partner on any rules infringements if they don't call themselves.


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    #52
    Rikand
    Registered Users Posts: 20,341 ✭✭✭✭Rikand


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    You cannot do that. It would be disqualification for both players if they decided to do so.

    I think if its between two players and the competition secretary is open to it, then anything is possible.


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    #53
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Golfnut77


    Slicemeister wrote: »
    Would you have rescheduled a rematch if he had not acted the bollix?

    I would have left it up to the committee but as far as I'm concerned he broke the rules of golf whether knowingly or unknowingly only he can say.

    I would rather play the guy he beat in the 1st round, as I don't believe I deserve to be in the next round by default so it's the fairest solution in my opinion.


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    #54
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭Russman


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    To be fair I dont think anyone is justifying pulling someone on a rules infringement in order to win. As if they are unreasonably ruthless amoral human beings.
    But those in favour of it, are advocating doing so because being the rule, it is the right thing to do.

    Agree, but on reading it, rule 2-5 (note 1) would appear to give those with "moral" objections to doing this, a way out within the rules, which seems fair enough IMO.


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    #55
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    Rikand wrote: »
    I think if its between two players and the competition secretary is open to it, then anything is possible.

    Yes. But the point is the competition secretary must make the ruling. The players themselves doing so without that approval is them breaking the rule, and so dq.

    And in this case, it is open and shut. No committee could correctly sanction a rematch.


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    #56
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭Russman


    Golfnut77 wrote: »
    when you're playing with someone else you have an obligation to the integrity of the game and others that are playing in the competition to call your playing partner on any rules infringements if they don't call themselves.

    In stroke play, yes. Not necessarily in match play.


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    #57
    Slicemeister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,526 ✭✭✭Slicemeister


    Fair enough. Interesting one for the secretary Monday morning! You weren't wrong in what you did.


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    #58
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Golfnut77


    Russman wrote: »
    In stroke play, yes. Not necessarily in match play.

    In club matchplay yes, if he goes on to next round using an illegal driver potentially wins it, is that fair on the other competitors?


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    #59
    John Divney
    Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭John Divney


    If you had left it til the end people would say sour grapes, only spoke up when he lost 2 and 1, should have mentioned it when you realised etc etc.

    It's match play, you did the right thing, either speak up right then or just forget it til after and say look get rid of that and say no more.

    It was the correct way to do it, there were 9 holes left and both parties knew that there was an issue to sort out at the end, he should have said fair enough we'll google it in the clubhouse , zero need for a hissy fit.

    Waiting til the match was over would have been way poorer sportsmanship


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    #60
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Golfnut77


    John Divney wrote: »
    If you had left it til the end people would say sour grapes, only spoke up when he lost 2 and 1, should have mentioned it when you realised etc etc.

    It's match play, you did the right thing, either speak up right then or just forget it til after and say look get rid of that and say no more.

    It was the correct way to do it, there were 9 holes left and both parties knew that there was an issue to sort out at the end, he should have said fair enough we'll google it in the clubhouse , zero need for a hissy fit.

    Waiting til the match was over would have been way poorer sportsmanship

    Yeah that was my thinking, I said it when I was as certain as I could be. I guess people could say that I was 3 down at that stage trying to get in his head etc, but I thought it was best to raise my concern as soon as I was sure.


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    #61
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭Russman


    Golfnut77 wrote: »
    In club matchplay yes, if he goes on to next round using an illegal driver potentially wins it, is that fair on the other competitors?

    It's up to each player he plays to decide for themselves whether to call him on anything, not up to you or me or anyone else to decide. That's why match play often has subtly different rule applications to stroke play. Why is there an "out" (at least to my reading of it) in Rule 2-5 ?


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