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deer poaching

  • 25-11-2014 8:18pm
    #1
    camoman1
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭


    Lamping of deer gone crazy again in the slievebloom mountains.back to square one again


Comments

  • #2
    deerhunter1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,711 ✭✭✭deerhunter1


    camoman1 wrote: »
    Lamping of deer gone crazy again in the slievebloom mountains.back to square one again

    Same around Tipp


  • #3
    snipe49
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭snipe49


    deerhunter1 wrote: »
    Same around Tipp
    And Galway .


  • #4
    richiedel123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 458 ✭✭richiedel123


    camoman1 wrote: »
    Lamping of deer gone crazy again in the slievebloom mountains.back to square one again

    The numbers seem to be down that's for sure. Was talking to a lad the other nite he was telling me there was a few lads in around his place last week told him they got 6 altogether.I asked him were they using the lamp and he said he didn't know


  • #5
    ecr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 225 ✭✭ecr


    Up my with dogs and rifles gone beyond a joke


  • #6
    camoman1
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭camoman1


    These lads that are lamping deer in laois need to be caught before they injure or kill somebody while shooting into the darkness.they seem to be operating with no regard or risk of being caught. Thought the rangers were on top of this problem, I know its no easy task but if its left to carry on it will spread everywhere and effect everyone, and the deer population well.?


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  • #7
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,623 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    I shoot around that area, and deer numbers are decent. I believe the problem lies on "the other side" of the Slieve Blooms.

    I've gotten reports from farmers in the area that at night they see lamps in the distance, and hear dogs being ran. The rangers are/were on regular enough patrol, but with two (i think that is all there is) of them it's no easy task. Other issues include luck. The range could be up there a few times a week and miss the one time these lads are out. Also they are well organised (poachers). They use a lamp in the distance to draw the attention of the rangers, if they know they're there, and when the ranger goes to check it out the other group acts.

    I've spent a couple of nights up there (no guns obviously) with the lamp and have seen no lights or dogs. Again this could be due to bad timing or the wrong nights. However it's only a matter of time before the poachers dry up their own area and move across so it's not a problem i can risk ignoring. The only saving grace is in the last two seasons all the farmers have banned everyone from their land bar myself and one friend (his family own land). They have given me instructions that anyone else on the land is a trespasser and can be reported. So i don;t need to worry about wasting rangers/Gardaí time.
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  • #8
    hiddenmongoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 432 ✭✭hiddenmongoose


    lamping is bad in roscommon too.only after getting a new permission in slieve blooms off a sound farmer.have to call next week to him to get the full show of the land.hoping its not badly poached


  • #9
    jagged
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76 ✭✭jagged


    Tipp is riddled, I work with a girl living near Cahir and they are sick of hearing shots going off at night. Haven't even bothered going over that direction this year.


  • #10
    stef22
    Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭stef22


    Galway is very bad for poaching. Every time i go for a stalk and meet locals, they tell me about shots being fired at nights. And the poachers do not seem to be afraid about anything or anybody. One local told me that when he goes for his morning walk he very often see blood and guts on the side of the road.
    Another one told me that he regularly pick up dead deer.


  • #11
    German pointer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,719 ✭✭✭German pointer


    I shoot East Clare and North Tipp and both are being lamped all the time


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  • #12
    Spaniel heaven
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭Spaniel heaven


    Kerry is riddled - makes you wonder why I give out bottles of whiskey and sit in kitchens entertaining people over bad cups of tea just to secure shooting when the same night guys are shooting the S***T out of the permission.


  • #13
    luvhuntin
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭luvhuntin


    I don't deny there is a problem with Deer poaching but how do know all the lamping and shooting at night is from people shooting Deer. In my opinion there's more people shooting foxes than ever before and a lot of people are jumping on the band wagon about poaching. The other thing that gets on my goat down where I'm from is one local whos constantly on social media about how the poachers have his permissions ruined is actually one of the biggest poachers around?


  • #14
    The Aussie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,440 ✭✭✭The Aussie


    luvhuntin wrote: »
    The other thing that gets on my goat down where I'm from is one local whos constantly on social media about how the poachers have his permissions ruined is actually one of the biggest poachers around?

    Have you done something about it?

    The Rangers need all the help they can get, report him...
    Give the Rangers all information they need i.e Name, Car Reg, Address, where he Hunts, pattern of Hunting, Game Dealer used and all the same details of his little Minions.


  • #15
    Spaniel heaven
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭Spaniel heaven


    luvhuntin wrote: »
    I don't deny there is a problem with Deer poaching but how do know all the lamping and shooting at night is from people shooting Deer. In my opinion there's more people shooting foxes than ever before and a lot of people are jumping on the band wagon about poaching. The other thing that gets on my goat down where I'm from is one local whos constantly on social media about how the poachers have his permissions ruined is actually one of the biggest poachers around?

    I shoot foxes by night as do a lot of locals, i can assure you that the vast majority of us are not basing our opinions of deer poaching on the sight of a lamp up the mountain - silly comment!!!


  • #16
    luvhuntin
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭luvhuntin


    The Aussie wrote: »
    Have you done something about it?

    The Rangers need all the help they can get, report him...
    Give the Rangers all information they need i.e Name, Car Reg, Address, where he Hunts, pattern of Hunting, Game Dealer used and all the same details of his little Minions.

    All done. Keep an eye out and hopefully it will be reported soon


  • #17
    luvhuntin
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭luvhuntin


    Spaniel heaven wrote: »
    I shoot foxes by night as do a lot of locals, i can assure you that the vast majority of us are not basing our opinions of deer poaching on the sight of a lamp up the mountain - silly comment!!!

    I shoot foxes all year round. I also shoot Deer. I ring the Gardai to tell them Im out on a couple of permissions as they were constantly called when people seen lamps in the fields. Wake up lad Im not denying there is a problem with Deer poaching


  • #18
    luvhuntin
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭luvhuntin


    Spaniel heaven wrote: »
    Kerry is riddled - makes you wonder why I give out bottles of whiskey and sit in kitchens entertaining people over bad cups of tea just to secure shooting when the same night guys are shooting the S***T out of the permission.

    I presume the fact that you also shoot foxes along with other locals at night that you have all the information needed about these guys to have gone to the proper authorities and sort this out.


  • #19
    fabwing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 173 ✭✭fabwing


    There is a certain minority of people poaching deer, some unlucky person will be caught and a good example should be made of them, we all need to keep an eye out and report people poaching unfortunately some genuine fox shooters will be innocently reported.


  • #20
    luvhuntin
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭luvhuntin


    They will be but as long as everythings in order you've nothing to worry about.


  • #21
    camoman1
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭camoman1


    With regards to people lamping foxes, thats fine I lamp my fair share for the club. But all my deer permissions are never lamped for foxes except when the farmer needs them shot in the lambing season. I think lamping foxes where theres deer is tricky and other methods might be a better way to go.i know for a fact that the lamping in the areas I know of are being poached for deer.just a shame genuine foxers are bearing the brunt of their behaviour.u need to take into account that deer are in the areas that u lamp foxes in.


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  • #22
    ecr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 225 ✭✭ecr


    It's everywhere an i don't think it will ever stop if anything it will get worse terrible shame for our sport


  • #23
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,623 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    luvhuntin wrote: »
    I don't deny there is a problem with Deer poaching but how do know all the lamping and shooting at night is from people shooting Deer.
    Two reasons:
    There are literally no foxes on the permissions i have, and the rangers patrol.
    The land owners are extremely strict with who they give permission to with some only granting me and one other permission so regardless of whether they are foxing or not they have no reason to be on the land with a lamp.
    The other thing that gets on my goat down where I'm from is one local whos constantly on social media about how the poachers have his permissions ruined is actually one of the biggest poachers around?
    It's not just social media, and i agree some of the worst offenders are those that are legal. Another reason i'm not on Facebook, twatter, or whatever other fecking trendy thing is out there.
    The Aussie wrote: »
    The Rangers need all the help they can get, report him...
    Give the Rangers all information they need i.e Name, Car Reg, Address, where he Hunts, pattern of Hunting, Game Dealer used and all the same details of his little Minions.
    Correct.
    fabwing wrote: »
    ........we all need to keep an eye out and report people poaching unfortunately some genuine fox shooters will be innocently reported.
    I have been stopped myself a few times when out foxing or even checking lands (with no guns). I co-operate, have nothing to fear and welcome/volunteer any inspection. It's a small price to pay if i know the rangers are doing their bit.
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  • #24
    Tommyaya4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 231 ✭✭Tommyaya4


    jagged wrote: »
    Tipp is riddled, I work with a girl living near Cahir and they are sick of hearing shots going off at night. Haven't even bothered going over that direction this year.


    Cahir is swamped with lads shooting deer day and night even the legit hunters are falling over each other in areas wont be deer left in the place before long
    Tommy


  • #25
    snipe49
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭snipe49


    Tommyaya4 wrote: »
    Cahir is swamped with lads shooting deer day and night even the legit hunters are falling over each other in areas wont be deer left in the place before long
    Tommy
    It's all down to greed.


  • #26
    wexfordman2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    Definitely down in numbers this year, nearly half way through the season and I have one taken, I'd normally be at 3 now, as my numbers work out about one a month, 6 per season. I will be lucky if I get one more before then end of the year.

    But hey, we will botch and moan, and yet do nothing about it, the only thing to be done at this point is proactive anti poaching campaign and tarfettinf of the revenue and money making side of selling deer.

    I'm almost at the point where i struggle to even get the motivation to head out for a shot at this stage, the only thing that has me still doing it is to get some down time !!


  • #27
    Lotharmike
    Closed Accounts Posts: 333 ✭✭Lotharmike


    Tommyaya4 wrote: »
    Cahir is swamped with lads shooting deer day and night even the legit hunters are falling over each other in areas wont be deer left in the place before long
    Tommy
    Witnessed & heard all the carry on down that side while foxing for a Landowner. NPWS was contacted along with Gardai (Guards disinterested) the (Ranger informed landowner he had no budget for diesel).You are very correct before long nothing in Deer terms will be left.I shot a young pricket there couple weeks ago.Down there twice since nothing around.Going to stick to the foxes that side of the world in the spring .


  • #28
    xchrisshana
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 340 ✭✭xchrisshana


    Iv being shooting in cahir now for 3 years day and night and never seen any body in or around the same land that I'm shooting and there is a nice few deer around too I did have a lamp shine up at me from the road one time but thats all iv seen


  • #29
    luvhuntin
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭luvhuntin


    Im not seeing any drop in numbers on some of my permissions but on one in particular it looks like theres literally no Deer left until I was out on the national park trying to herd up some loose sheep with the land owner and we seen more Deer than I have ever seen. We came to the conclusion that because he lets so many shoot Deer in the day and then has the fox shooters up at night the Deer dont have a chance to come down any further. He's delighted because theres no Deer coming down and wants every fox in the place shot which suits him but its no good for the Deer shooter but what can you say-its his land? The only time I get a Deer on it is late January/Febuary when its extremely cold and usually snows and nobody else has been up for a few weeks so this may be another reason people think numbers are down.


  • #30
    vincentf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭vincentf


    I had been watching a permission in Waterford and had seen 6 different deer most evenings. The evening before the 1st sept I caught a poacher lining up to take a shot, luckily the deer vacated the field in time.recorded proceedings on phone camera.rang gardai. Waited bout half hour till nearest station replied. Nothing came of it, never heard anything from the gard i spoke to. Said he couldn't do anything as he didn't fire a shot.
    I was told the gardai don't respond to calls of poachers with guns as they need the armed response unit to take on this task, ordinary gardai can't take on lads with guns. If the armed response unit turn up and a lad is lamping foxes they get pissed off etc...
    Farmers on my permissions dealing with poachers annually.
    One farmer caught some lads running dogs and he said he knew the little ****ers.
    Waterford is poached,lamped with guns and dogs constantly and I've been told lads are local and from surrounding villages.
    I've no faith in the npws or gardai as there is a lack of man power and resources to tackle this head on nationally.
    I was told one way to help is by placing hidden cameras at positions where vehicles could be filmed and lads caught loading deer. Getting evidence that will stick in court etc..


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  • #31
    FISMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,616 ✭✭✭FISMA


    snipe49 wrote: »
    It's all down to greed.

    No love for the lampers, but the greed I have seen in hunters , actually let's call them cullers is far worse, in my opinion.

    How many on the board know someone that is shooting triple digit deer?

    I still think deer in Ireland are going to go the way the fish did during the Celtic Tiger heyday. Islands need to be more conservative than continents. Doubt many deer are going to swim to Eire.

    Blame and greed, there's plenty to go around.


  • #32
    stef22
    Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭stef22


    FISMA wrote: »
    No love for the lampers, but the greed I have seen in hunters , actually let's call them cullers is far worse, in my opinion.

    How many on the board know someone that is shooting triple digit deer?


    Blame and greed, there's plenty to go around.


    Cannot agree more.

    some lads shoot far too many deer , as if they were rabbits. Talked to a guy recently who shot 5 bucks in one morning during the rut. Why on earth who you want to take 5 in a couple of hours ? The same guy goes nuts when he hears about poachers ...


  • #33
    snipe49
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭snipe49


    stef22 wrote: »
    Cannot agree more.

    some lads shoot far too many deer , as if they were rabbits. Talked to a guy recently who shot 5 bucks in one morning during the rut. Why on earth who you want to take 5 in a couple of hours ? The same guy goes nuts when he hears about poachers ...
    As long as they are getting anywhere from 80 to 100 euros for a deer from game dealers we will have this problem.


  • #34
    badshot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭badshot


    FISMA wrote: »
    No love for the lampers, but the greed I have seen in hunters , actually let's call them cullers is far worse, in my opinion.

    How many on the board know someone that is shooting triple digit deer?

    I still think deer in Ireland are going to go the way the fish did during the Celtic Tiger heyday. Islands need to be more conservative than continents. Doubt many deer are going to swim to Eire.

    Blame and greed, there's plenty to go around.

    hard to disagree with you


  • #35
    luvhuntin
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭luvhuntin


    Its a certain type of money hungry little rat that shoots massive numbers to sell or poaches another mans land day or night. Theres no mystery men at this either. We know most if not all of them. Best thing to do is keep ringing the local Superintendent or Park ranger even if you feel your getting nowhere as if the same names keep popping up they will act on it. Vermin like this will be caught eventually as their pure greed will trip them up.


  • #36
    Vulture 1
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭Vulture 1


    luvhuntin wrote: »
    Its a certain type of money hungry little rat that shoots massive numbers to sell or poaches another mans land day or night. Theres no mystery men at this either. We know most if not all of them. Best thing to do is keep ringing the local Superintendent or Park ranger even if you feel your getting nowhere as if the same names keep popping up they will act on it. Vermin like this will be caught eventually as their pure greed will trip them up.

    I know of a guy who draws disability has done most of his life.
    He shoots all week long no lamping involved.
    Has done this for years.
    Has a new house new car best of guns.
    I don't think he is breaking any law.
    What do you do.
    There is no cap on what he can shoot.

    I can look forward to hunting a empty ground after a long week and paying tax to keep the bas@@ in his landed gentry lifestyle.


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  • #37
    fabwing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 173 ✭✭fabwing


    I was putting my one deer into a neighbours cooler as I eat for the table, and one lad had seven deer hung in it ready for the game dealer, how do you shoot seven deer in a couple of days, I get one every now and again with a ratio of about I deer every five stalks if I am lucky, he has a game license is this killing our sport.


  • #38
    vincentf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭vincentf


    I wonder how we compare to other countries in the E.U, do they have poaching, lamping with guns and dogs. It would be very interesting to see the results. I've read there is poaching in the U.K. Anyone know if this happens in France, Germany or Spain.
    Does this have a deeper reflection on the Irish psyche. Our ancestors poached fish and deer to stay alive during the famine and throughout our history. Is it a case that its the norm in families as young lads might grow up with their dad or grandad telling them they poached land that would have belonged to landlords etc, poaching is very old in Ireland.


  • #39
    FISMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,616 ✭✭✭FISMA


    Vulture 1 wrote: »
    I don't think he is breaking any law.
    ...
    There is no cap on what he can shoot.

    There's the problem!

    First, there are no laws against shooting 1000 deer, for example, in Ireland.

    Second, if there were, there is effectively, no enforcement of laws.

    Even worse, in Ireland, if I so desired, I could traipse about my land and drop every single deer I see and let them rot in place, correct? Someone correct me if I am wrong, however, I know of no "Wanton Waste" type laws in Ireland.

    How many of us know lads shooting deer for y'er man's dags down the road?

    I hate to sound like a conspiracy nut, but I honestly believe that eradication of Irish deer is being allowed either by apathy or lobbying.

    It is no secret that in many parts of the world, the automobile insurance companies are the biggest sponsors of deer hunting. In the States, the average deer-car collision cost is $3000. Deer-Moose-Elk collisions kill more people in the States than all deaths due to rifles combined.

    I do not know too many farmers that love having deer on their land. I understand their position. I also understand how tight profit margins are for dairy farmers.

    Consider having the automobile insurance and farmer's lobby against you. That's a lot of political pressure.

    Let's put my above hypothesis aside. The fact remains that in Ireland, you can shoot a deer for half of the year. You can use a moderator and reporting is on the honor system. Ridiculous.

    You can shoot a doe in February, when the probability is that she is pregnant. Shooting does in general, let alone pregnant, is done in areas to decline numbers. In some areas I have hunted, where deer are overpopulated, they force you to shoot a doe before you can take an antlered buck.

    Personally, I have to love the audacity of some "outfitters" that will take you out hunting and publicly advertise their services. Licences? Yeah right. When this sort of illegal activity is publicly flaunted, what does that say about the laws and their enforcement?

    There is not a doubt in my mind that they allow people to illegally possess the "house" gun and illegally shoot their deer on their lands.

    With all that said, if you are shooting multiple deer for your family's pot, no problem. Need a deer for Aunt Mary? No problem. Donating one to the local food bank? God Bless you.

    There are plenty of ways to fix the current system, but the ideas are falling on deaf ears.

    The honor system is working about as well as it did for fishing. Again, at least fish can swim to Eire, deer, not so well!

    To be honest, I actually look down more on some hunters than on lampers. I don't expect good behaviour from law breakers. But, given the current laws, too many people are legally doing more damage than the lawbreakers.


  • #40
    camoman1
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭camoman1


    I agree totally with vulture1, some lads are shooting huge numbers of deer to be sold on to game dealers. How is it right when two lads have a deer licence each and one of them shoots 100 deer and one shoots 20 in a season.i know of three people shooting large numbers of deer and not declaring them, and the same people have been doing so for a long time and continue to do so if left to it, theres no level playing field in deer hunting, some lads would shoot a thousand deer in a season if they could, all for financial gain to.some shoot for sport and some shoot for profit simple as.


  • #41
    deeksofdoom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,025 ✭✭✭deeksofdoom


    Vulture 1 wrote: »
    I know of a guy who draws disability has done most of his life.
    He shoots all week long no lamping involved.
    Has done this for years.
    Has a new house new car best of guns.
    I don't think he is breaking any law.
    What do you do.
    There is no cap on what he can shoot.

    I can look forward to hunting a empty ground after a long week and paying tax to keep the bas@@ in his landed gentry lifestyle.

    The Silverfox....


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  • #42
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    vincentf wrote: »
    I wonder how we compare to other countries in the E.U, do they have poaching, lamping with guns and dogs. It would be very interesting to see the results. I've read there is poaching in the U.K. Anyone know if this happens in France, Germany or Spain.
    Does this have a deeper reflection on the Irish psyche. Our ancestors poached fish and deer to stay alive during the famine and throughout our history. Is it a case that its the norm in families as young lads might grow up with their dad or grandad telling them they poached land that would have belonged to landlords etc, poaching is very old in Ireland.

    For Germany.It was rife after the war,but that was because people were literally starving and the country was utter anarchy for about three years,with plenty of war material lying around,Allied occupation forces plundering the countryside,and a thriving black market.Poaching was literally a life or death matter,as the anti poaching laws of Germany from a century ago,and kept by the 3rd Reich were still in force under Allied occupation .That poachers could be shot on sight,and owning a gun under Allied martial law was a death sentence anyway![Apprently that law on shooting poachers still stands today.] Nowadays,it is virtually non existant,as they have a different system to us.You have a let,the game is your property.You are responsible for any damage it does to farmers crops.Be it wild boar in the spud patch or a fox stealing the farmers chickens. Even wild game animals run over on the road are calculated into your annual cull number.Its a reportable traffic accident to hit and kill game,and chucking it in your car and heading off is considerd vechicle poaching.IE use the car as the killing tool.So with that kind of responsibility,or potential financial loss you can be sure the German hunter is out as much as possible in his let and knows virtually everyone who comes and goes into his let.Also you are entitled to carry a pistol on your person on the let for humane dispatch of game or if need be arresting chacters up to no good.It is an arrestable offence and is punishable by 5 years and forfiture of your liscense both hunting and drivers and any equipment used in the crime.That can include your house if you were butchering at home! Drug dealing would be an easier and more profitable crime .

    The Irish situation is I think a combination of a lot of things.Bravado,greed,stupidity being all in there. Bravado in the romantic idea of in the best "Flurry Knox" [of the Irish RM TV seris...Remember that one?] style of sticking it to their lordships up in the big house tradition of poaching the odd pheasent or deer. While still a crime no matter what,it is more a nusiance than than malicious. Differnt story if you have an entire gang coming in and cleaning out an entire pheasent spinney or a herd of deer. thats no better if you robbed the entire beer cooler in Tescos.Greed fits in here too.Money to be made the easy way by both shooter and game dealer.Stupidity in the sense we have edijts in NPWS and IFA saying things "If I had it my way there wouldnt be a deer left in Ireland." With morons like that in charge,its almost a carte blanche for the unscrouplous to go and shoot everything under their lamp. The Sect 42 is the worst thing we have here on our laws...It is handed out IMO way too easy for the most dubious reasons
    ,but thats a symptom of bad laws here,in the sense there is no other option or responsibility for proper game management.

    Again I say it.Take the money out of this equation and hit HARD those who are caught with equipment loss,liscense loss,vechicle loss,and ban them from owning firearms for at least 10 years. Game dealers are making so much cash that they are literally calculating in in the unscrouplous ones at least,the max a DC fine can throw at them into a busisness running cost.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #43
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,623 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    I've split out the newer posts into their own thread. However some replies are quoting posts from closed accounts so i'm closing this thread as there will be no responses or furthering of the debate from those posters.
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



This discussion has been closed.
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