Water meters install problem

Sam Russell wrote: »

The polystyrene was shaped around the meter but I only glanced at it over your ones shoulder. I think it was meant as insulation.

Remember, the pipe has water flowing through it at about +3 to +5 degrees centigrade in even the coldest weather. (Providing it keeps flowing). The two cold winters we had recently were unprecedented with air temperatures down to -18 degrees, but even still our mains never froze, it was only feeders into properties that froze.

Running water will freeze! It's depends on flow rate, pipe size and temperature.
Is everyone to run taps at full bore to prevent freezing and pay IW for the inconvenience of cold weather.

If you escaped freezing water mains pipes underground, then it's because of one the following:
Dept of pipe, flow rate if taps running, or Luck! Think Water Wastage!

It will be the "feeders that freeze first".

This is one of the problems! It will be IW's problem like Scottish Waters problem to prevent freezing pipes to homes. "They are providing the Service"!! & will have to insure water runs to every billed home.

Are you suggesting we run our taps to prevent freezing?

Trunk mains are usually deep enough to prevent freezing!
Supplies to homes usually may not be deep enough!

Sam Russell wrote: »

The pipe my feeder gets it water from has water flowing past supplying other users besides me. It is that flow that keeps it from freezing. Now if we had sustained -18 deg temperatures we would indeed be in trouble but that is very very rare in this country. Even -5 deg is rare (averaged out over 24 hours). Obviously running taps to prevent freezing is nuts. (Only FBD suggested this and were quickly put to rights).

Deep frosts are the problem, not snow.

It all depends on the time freezing takes place. 24hrs, 72hrs or more!
We have found insulated pipes subject to freezing temps longer than 48-72 hrs have froze.
The trunk main is less likely to freeze because of the dept & the flow rate to other buildings. Your feeder, unless running will freeze unless the flow rate or dept is incorrect. If the pipe is deep enough it may not freeze depending on freezing times/duration of freezing times. If in 2010, we had 2-5 days of freezing temps, lasting longer it may have been a different story. The flow rate past your connection has nothing to do with the temps of your feeder. It must be deep enough or water was running helping to prevent freezing.

Personally I had no problems with mains freezing apart from a garden tap bursting.

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Will the new meters incorporate a stop cock or will there be a new stop cock or will they just connect to the existing cock ?

At least one, but preferably two stop cocks are needed - one either side of the meter so that meters can be serviced / replaced intermittently. Whether one is incorporated into the meter, I don't know, but I would suggest no.

Thanks for that.
We have the old style cock turned with a key locating on to a square shaft. It does not shut off fully now so I hope it gets replaced !

Surely it must mean water temperatures.

billy few mates wrote: »

Thanks for that, I can't see any reference for the installation depth, is that because there is none because it's operational to temperatures of -30C....?

Depth of the meter is determined by the minimum length of the boundary box. If the mains water pipe is higher they will just divert the pipe down to meet the boundary box connections.

MYOB wrote: »

Water is going to freeze at 0 anyway...

It is very unlikely that there will be any cases of freezing that would not have happened without the meter.

We'll have to wait and see. However I have heard boundary box temperatures have been recorded as low as -24 while air temps were only -9 at the time. Would love to find out who did the test and get my hands on the report. The big question is who is liable for the cost if meters do freeze and burst?

deandean wrote: »

Have a guess :mad:. The user is getting screwed for the cost of the meter, 800 euro or so in total spread over about 20 years.

But I can assure you that the consumer will pay for any and all problems with the meter installation after a nominal period of say, 12 months.

Yea, €800 for a €95 meter & reader which is about 10-15 years old and getting out dated. However if you know your rights and the law, have anyone signed a contract agreeing to have IW as your water provider?

Froststop wrote: »

However I have heard boundary box temperatures have been recorded as low as -24 while air temps were only -9 at the time.

What is there to suggest the ground temperatures were any higher than -24 to begin with?

billy few mates wrote: »

Does anybody know where I can find the regulations or guidelines for the installation of these meters and the minimum depth they must be installed at...?

Water meter boundary boxes come in two approx sizes and are telescopic.
Short adjusts from 310mm to 545mm
Long adjusts from 470mm to 870mm

Pipe work has to be altered to suit, most likely they will just divert pipe with elbows up or down to required level within the hole for the box.

markpb wrote: »

Contracts aren't relevant - Irish Water get their authority from national legislation.


(link)

Water Directive cannot change the nature of CONTRACT LAW, it's all about consent. If you do not object to a meter being fitted then your allowing consent. That's why they sent out the forms for people to sign for the property tax, which were sent as a Declaration and people signed it thinking they had to by law.

Froststop wrote: »

Sorry, don't follow?

You said that the temperature being recorded in the boundary box in the apparent case was -24, what is there to indicate that the ground temperature surrounding a pipe adjacent to the boundary box wasn't -24 anyway?

Froststop wrote: »

Water Directive cannot change the nature of CONTRACT LAW, it's all about consent. If you do not object to a meter being fitted then your allowing consent. That's why they sent out the forms for people to sign for the property tax, which were sent as a Declaration and people signed it thinking they had to by law.

Nonsense of the highest order.

After looking back through the thread, I see no-one has suggested what they would like to have in their water meter system.

What features/options would people like to have included or is everyone happy just to get a bill in the door every month?

Victor wrote: »

While I realise you aren't suggesting piped hot water to everyone's door (some people do have it, especially with CHP systems), I'm not sure what you are suggesting.

Do you mean different billing options and tariffs? Cheaper water in autumn and more expensive in freezing weather / high summer?

Maybe I should have worded it a little better Victor.
Are people happy just getting a paper bill in the door each month without access to view their own data/readings, or being able to monitor their own consumption and monitor for potential leaks etc.

Has any of the posters any ideas/features they would think would be of benefit in order to keep an eye on consumption etc? i.e. on line data access, water meter temp monitoring, live/automatic consumption costs, graph readings showing daily consumption.

Furp wrote: »

I would like smart meters and this goes for all my utility suppliers, it would be very useful to have either realtime or even daily updates that you could view on the web or mobile devices of your usage.

You would think with the technology available today that it would be the way to go as it can be done no prob, being able to login and view all your usage, costs, etc would be a huge advantage IMO.

However there dose seem to be a worry regarding health, even though we forget about it when visiting a mobile phone shop.

I'm not sure what meter model(s) had been selected, but I doubt many of them will be internet connected.

Victor wrote: »

I'm not sure what meter model(s) had been selected, but I doubt many of them will be internet connected.

That's right Victor, they will only be on a drive-by system

Colm R wrote: »

Does a drive by system mean remotely read from within X number of meters?

If so, does that mean the meter needs a power supply?

Yes, working by battery. In an estate for example, once the van is within range it will stop up and up-load the reads.

Scartbeg wrote: »

We paid €800 for our mains connection including water meter when our house was built 18 months ago.

Are they going to swap my meter out for one that can be read remotely, and charge me again for the privilege?

Yes, I would assume the existing meter is only standard manual read and is not compatible with their new system. You probably have a boundary box fitted already if that's the case. I wouldn't allow them touch the existing one. If they will be charging the full price make them fit a complete kit. You could use the existing one to compare readings, both should provide the same consumption readings.

There are a lot of house's with boundary boxes fitted but don't have meters, will they also have to pay the full price?
IW won't have to dig to fit a boundary box or connect to the main. The new meter would only be fitted in the existing box.

Scartbeg wrote: »

Not to mention I have modified the existing boundardy box to provide adequate frost protection - my pipes are all buried 3 feet down, and the meter will now be the weak point next time we have an extended period of sub-zero temperatures. The 4cm foam plug provided with the box is simply not up to the job, plus the meter brings the pipe to about 18 inches from the surface.

If the meters happen to freeze at any time, I would think they will surely burst. This was something IW considered but I guess they decided it was not their problem. I assume if the meter bursts after a freeze they won't accept liability.

anonanymore wrote: »

From the Irish water web site
"The meter will be installed at the stopcock on the public footpath, and so while it is possible to read the meter it is not envisioned that you will need to do so. A drive-by meter reading will be conducted on meters by Irish Water staff."

I will want to check the meter to see if my bill is correct, something I can do with my electricity bill.

You would be right to do so!
Bills will be monthly by all accounts, but reads will be quarterly. So two of the three bills will have to be estimated. IMO this will also make it more confusing for customers to monitor their usage to compare it to bills in case of any errors.

riclad wrote: »

I think one meter costs 200 euro plus,
if we get a bad winter, and 1000 ,s of them freeze, and break who ,
is gonna pay repair bill.

Are you saying an apartment block with 20 units ,is just going to have 1 meter?

Surely Irish Water would have all their meters insured for such eventualities