Railfreight

Losty Dublin · 03-04-2015 4:09pm

Hungerford wrote: »

You could do it by leaving the main line just prior to Ballina station and looping around the town. You'd have to take out half the town and various housing estates to use the old Killala alignment.

Reopening the Killala branch was actually looked at when Asahi set up in the town. It was found to have been prohibitively expensive given these required deviations and for the couple of train movements a day it facilitated.

dowlingm · 05-04-2015 2:00pm

I still think reopening Foynes for zinc makes limited sense (as opposed to sending it to Waterford and spending the capital on capacity, signals and other improvements between Killonan-Waterford West) unless SFPC can tee up a Foynes originating flow or two as well, as they have claimed they could when looking for reinstatement in the past.

Hungerford · 06-04-2015 9:39am

dowlingm wrote: »

I still think reopening Foynes for zinc makes limited sense (as opposed to sending it to Waterford and spending the capital on capacity, signals and other improvements between Killonan-Waterford West) unless SFPC can tee up a Foynes originating flow or two as well, as they have claimed they could when looking for reinstatement in the past.

Tara Mines has worked perfectly well for years though without a return flow to Navan.

BonkeyDonker · 06-04-2015 3:42pm

dowlingm wrote: »

I still think reopening Foynes for zinc makes limited sense (as opposed to sending it to Waterford and spending the capital on capacity, signals and other improvements between Killonan-Waterford West) unless SFPC can tee up a Foynes originating flow or two as well, as they have claimed they could when looking for reinstatement in the past.

It could be very hard get a return flow as the cargo would need ot be the same type, easier for container traffic, not so much for bulk cargos like ore.

Hungerford wrote: »

Tara Mines has worked perfectly well for years though without a return flow to Navan.

I am sure as the return journey is paid for IR will have no issues with it.

Victor · 07-04-2015 10:18pm

Hungerford wrote: »

Tara Mines has worked perfectly well for years though without a return flow to Navan.

How did the cement used in the mines get to Navan?

For information - after each 'tunnel' of ore was dug out, it was backfilled with a mix of cement and the non-lead / zinc parts of the ore. This means that when adjacent two tunnels have been backfilled, they can then dig out the middle bit, thereby extracting the maximum amount of lead and zinc possible.

BonkeyDonker · 07-04-2015 10:58pm

Victor wrote: »

How did the cement used in the mines get to Navan?

For information - after each 'tunnel' of ore was dug out, it was backfilled with a mix of cement and the non-lead / zinc parts of the ore. This means that when adjacent two tunnels have been backfilled, they can then dig out the middle bit, thereby extracting the maximum amount of lead and zinc possible.

But did they use the same wagons for each product - i.e - dump the ore in Dublin and then fill the same wagons with cement?

And even then some empty running would be required from Dublin to Drogheda??

Like I said earlier, for bulks like ore it is not very often you get to back haul a load, unlike with containerization, and this is generally factored into the cost at an early stage.

metrovick001 · 08-04-2015 8:13am

It all went by road from Platin to the mines.

Why it didnt go by rail is beyond me as both ends were rail connected.

Victor wrote: »

How did the cement used in the mines get to Navan?

For information - after each 'tunnel' of ore was dug out, it was backfilled with a mix of cement and the non-lead / zinc parts of the ore. This means that when adjacent two tunnels have been backfilled, they can then dig out the middle bit, thereby extracting the maximum amount of lead and zinc possible.

BoatMad · 13-04-2015 2:28pm

I was in claremorris recently , the station staff alluded to the fact that they believed there would be a restoration of some freight activity there. easy to reconnect the old goods sidings too.

as for rosslare europort, given its not a LOLO port, I cant see much rail freight happening there.

end of the road · 13-04-2015 2:48pm

BoatMad wrote: »

as for rosslare europort, given its not a LOLO port, I cant see much rail freight happening there.

exactly. more chance of a full retreat from it by the railway then rail freight happening. but you never know i suppose.

BoatMad · 13-04-2015 2:54pm

end of the road wrote: »

exactly. more chance of a full retreat from it by the railway then rail freight happening. but you never know i suppose.

absolutly, given the positioning go the current Rosslare station , its basically IE not wanting anyone to use it.

n97 mini · 13-04-2015 9:31pm

I read an old thread on here recently claiming the ILDA strikes caused permanent damage to rail freight.

Now with hindsight, how true is this?

I remember the strikes all too well as it left me and a lot of other people stranded.

ClovenHoof · 14-04-2015 12:08pm

The ILDA horror story is one that still needs investigating. A major railfrieght strike happens at the same time property developers are eyeing up brownfield sites called 'rail yards' in prime development locations such Dublin Docklands.

Along comes this mysterious figure named Ogle...the right **** stirrer at the right time for the property developers. He was like a magical angel from heaven to them. The strike destroyed railfreight and suddenly the rail yards are empty...

Then the magical strike fairy moves on to the ESB and now leading a very dodgy Right2Water bunch who are just a pretend front to co-opt the anti-water charges movement.

Brendan Ogle the angel flutters in and out and always an RTE camera and government minister there to give him PR...

Watch, I'll be banned for this.

ClovenHoof · 14-04-2015 12:08pm

The ILDA horror story is one that still needs investigating. A major railfrieght strike happens at the same time property developers are eyeing up brownfield sites called 'rail yards' in prime development locations such Dublin Docklands.

Along comes this mysterious figure named Ogle...the right **** stirrer at the right time for the property developers. He was like a magical angel from heaven to them. The strike destroyed railfreight and suddenly the rail yards are empty...

Then the magical strike fairy moves on to the ESB and now leading a very dodgy Right2Water bunch who are just a pretend front to co-opt the anti-water charges movement.

Brendan Ogle the angel flutters in and out and always an RTE camera and government minister there to give him PR...

Watch, I'll be banned for this. Conspiracies within the Brown Envelope world of that grey area between Cute Whores and Semi-State eh 'facilitator' heaven forbid! Ireland is a democracy!! We can trust everything RTE tells us and they hide nothing!

and the Ogle Fairy flutters on to his next mission...

ClovenHoof · 14-04-2015 1:06pm

Let's not forget a major railfrieght resurgence happened in the mid-late 90's and all indications were that railfrieght was heading for a golden age with the Celtic Tiger.

Then along came the Strike Fairy...and the rest is Spencer Dock.

BoatMad · 14-04-2015 4:51pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Let's not forget a major railfrieght resurgence happened in the mid-late 90's and all indications were that railfrieght was heading for a golden age with the Celtic Tiger.

Then along came the Strike Fairy...and the rest is Spencer Dock.

I don't think its as simple as that.

Various strategic rail reviews have recommended that IE remove itself from freight, in particular as the 90s ended and freight loses especially from its road division mounted.

The stikes didn't help, and arguably hastened the end of freight on Irish railways. But it wasted the primarily driving force.

BoatMad · 14-04-2015 4:52pm

Hungerford wrote: »

Tara Mines has worked perfectly well for years though without a return flow to Navan.

It should be remembered that Tara Mines is under a planing obligation to move its ore by rail. So to some extent its a captive customer

ClovenHoof · 14-04-2015 8:58pm

BoatMad wrote: »

I don't think its as simple as that.

Various strategic rail reviews have recommended that IE remove itself from freight, in particular as the 90s ended and freight loses especially from its road division mounted..

Trucking Companies and Property Tycoons at the Galway Races Tent you mean?

metrovick001 · 14-04-2015 10:12pm

I have to agree with clovenhoof on this one, too many ff cowboys in town when this happened.
I wonder if the politicians & the serial nah-sayers were kept away from the sector would it prosper.

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Trucking Companies and Property Tycoons at the Galway Races Tent you mean?

sporty56 · 14-04-2015 10:32pm

Absolutely spot on as regards Ogle facilitating IR to allow sites to become available as well as handing the toll roads the golden egg. Reckon he'll disappear smartly from the waterboys once the man from Newstalk makes it worth his while to be elsewhere. Bit of Sun break in the Caribbean could be coming up.

Pete_Cavan · 18-04-2015 2:46pm

dowlingm wrote: »

I still think reopening Foynes for zinc makes limited sense (as opposed to sending it to Waterford and spending the capital on capacity, signals and other improvements between Killonan-Waterford West) unless SFPC can tee up a Foynes originating flow or two as well, as they have claimed they could when looking for reinstatement in the past.

Has the possibility of sending this zinc to Waterford via rail been considered or is Foynes the only option on the table? I would have thought it unlikely the money to recommission the Foynes line will be forthcoming from the government so why not look to use an already operational line and a port already accepting freight? I dont know where they would be shipping to but if it is the UK or mainland Europe it would be a shorter distance from Waterford also.

Losty Dublin · 18-04-2015 3:23pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Has the possibility of sending this zinc to Waterford via rail been considered or is Foynes the only option on the table? I would have thought it unlikely the money to recommission the Foynes line will be forthcoming from the government so why not look to use an already operational line and a port already accepting freight? I dont know where they would be shipping to but if it is the UK or mainland Europe it would be a shorter distance from Waterford also.

Foynes is a far more practical option as the mine is in Pallasgreen, a reasonably short spin away. Foynes also has facility for loading ore onto adjacent ships unlike Waterford, it being a container depot.

The company who are behind the mine smelt their ore in Spain and Germany; the former would be a lot handier to get to from Foynes.

BoatMad · 20-04-2015 5:09pm

metrovick001 wrote: »

I have to agree with clovenhoof on this one, too many ff cowboys in town when this happened.
I wonder if the politicians & the serial nah-sayers were kept away from the sector would it prosper.

i dont think that political interference was behind the demise of freight on irish railways

end of the road · 20-04-2015 6:14pm

BoatMad wrote: »

i dont think that political interference was behind the demise of freight on irish railways

i wouldn't be so sure. its possible it wasn't, but this is ireland so anything is possible. in saying that, some of it went because the traffic itself went due to the customer closing their operation, or they downsized and didn't need the volumes of capacity that rail freight provided. IE did get rid of a lot of it as well i think, thinking they could rely on the passenger only network (stupid i know but there you go . i do think though there is a byass toards road only freight by the government rather then an attempt to allow both to compete. yes many will choose road but there could be some flows out there that might be suitable for rail had the vision been there and their operations forced to be built beside the rail network. they wouldn't be much but it would be something. but we are where we are and i don't expect things to change

BoatMad · 21-04-2015 12:49pm

end of the road wrote: »

i wouldn't be so sure. its possible it wasn't, but this is ireland so anything is possible. in saying that, some of it went because the traffic itself went due to the customer closing their operation, or they downsized and didn't need the volumes of capacity that rail freight provided. IE did get rid of a lot of it as well i think, thinking they could rely on the passenger only network (stupid i know but there you go . i do think though there is a byass toards road only freight by the government rather then an attempt to allow both to compete. yes many will choose road but there could be some flows out there that might be suitable for rail had the vision been there and their operations forced to be built beside the rail network. they wouldn't be much but it would be something. but we are where we are and i don't expect things to change

The primary reasons , in my view can be summarised

(a) Mounting historical losses in freight , ( especially CIE road freight)

(b) Customers going out of business

(c) Switch to road freight amongst industry sectors ( Quinn cement etc )

(d) removal of freight train paths , including port access

(e) Industrial relations

(f) rolling stock replacement issues

(g) a political emphasis inside CIE towards passenger services

Victor · 21-04-2015 6:03pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Foynes is a far more practical option as the mine is in Pallasgreen, a reasonably short spin away.

A short spin may mean that road transport is more efficient.

Foynes also has facility for loading ore onto adjacent ships unlike Waterford, it being a container depot.

Cork, Dublin, New Ross and probably others can also load ore.

The company who are behind the mine smelt their ore in Spain and Germany; the former would be a lot handier to get to from Foynes.

Really?

roundymac · 21-04-2015 8:00pm

Was'nt there something about the subsidy that IE get from the state being removed from rail freight, i/e, only can be used for passenger trains. I think Mary Harney was minister at the time and that it was an EU directive.

sporty56 · 23-04-2015 9:37pm

Irish Cement Ltd. were the only cement manufacturer to use rail for distribution of their products.

dowlingm · 28-04-2015 3:17pm

When I said "Waterford" I meant the bulk port in the city, not Belview.

Looking at the Wanderer's pictures of Foynes, there will have to be a lot of stopping and starting to open LC gates if rehabilitation is limited to the minimums.

BoatMad · 28-04-2015 3:30pm

dowlingm wrote: »

When I said "Waterford" I meant the bulk port in the city, not Belview.

Looking at the Wanderer's pictures of Foynes, there will have to be a lot of stopping and starting to open LC gates if rehabilitation is limited to the minimums.

No large ship " port" remains in the city . Dredging has stopped and the port is effectively inaccessible. Wasn't the Frank Cassin Warf sold to developers as well ?, water ford port cant afford the current Belview dredging scheme, they could not afford to extend it to the old port.

Pete_Cavan · 28-04-2015 8:20pm

Would it be cheaper to install bulk handling facilities in Bellview than reinstating the Foynes line?

Railfreight

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