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Are the Private Sector simply Jealous of the Public Sector?

  • 10-02-2010 4:10pm
    #1
    PeteSanchez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭


    Now before I start, i will lay my cards on the table. I am an electrician working in Aughanish in Limerick.
    Private Sector.

    So, my question is this. Are private sector workers simply jealous of public sector workers and this is the main fuel that is keeping the current civil war amongst workers going?

    Some people on here seem to think Public Sector workers should almost apologise for having a Government Job! Why? Because they themselves dont have one perhaps?

    If many of you had a PS job, your view would be 100% different to your current one, no matter how much you might say otherwise. Its all about agendas.

    5 years ago male clerical officers in their 30's in Local Authorities were sneered at, making their 30k ...

    Now...they are hated. Just because they were not sacked!

    So I ask again, is the real root of the antagonistic anti-ps hatred we see here, that private sector workers are jealous of Public Sector workers and thus are bitter?


«1345

Comments

  • #2
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    PeteSanchez wrote: »
    5 years ago male clerical officers in their 30's in Local Authorities were sneered at, making their 30k ...
    Maybe by you, but certainly not by me or most people I know. 30k was still a decent salary in 2005.


  • #3
    gent9662
    Closed Accounts Posts: 697 ✭✭✭gent9662


    Cards on the table...I am a private sector worker.

    My view is the following...

    I have not yet heard of a public sector worker who is satisfied with their job, security, wages and pension. These things are more appreciated by the average private sector worker. I believe that private sector workers are so frustrated by the constant moaning, striking and general attitude often displayed by the public sector.

    If I was in the public sector I after coming from the private sector I think I would truly appreciate the security and pension that it offers more so than the ones that fall into jobs straight from college and school.


  • #4
    PeteSanchez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭PeteSanchez


    murphaph wrote: »
    Maybe by you, but certainly not by me or most people I know. 30k was still a decent salary in 2005.

    OK murph, say two years ago so. Same scenario.


  • #5
    Saadyst
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Saadyst


    Public sector workers don't seem to realise however, that it is the private sector that pay their wages, and the weaker the private sector is, then the weaker the public sector will become. Public sector is not (and should not be) something that makes profit, so this will always be the case.

    I find it hilarious when public sector workers mention "paying taxes".


  • #6
    PeteSanchez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭PeteSanchez


    dclane wrote: »
    Cards on the table...I am a private sector worker.

    My view is the following...

    I have not yet heard of a public sector worker who is satisfied with their job, security, wages and pension. These things are more appreciated by the average private sector worker. I believe that private sector workers are so frustrated by the constant moaning, striking and general attitude often displayed by the public sector.

    If I was in the public sector I after coming from the private sector I think I would truly appreciate the security and pension that it offers more so than the ones that fall into jobs straight from college and school.

    I think to say anyone "fell into a job" in the PS is borderline ridiculous. When civil service exams came up in Limerick about 3 years ago I sat the exam in the Marriot with about 300 others. There were 4 vacancies. I dont think that constitutes falling into a job Declan. Its one of the hardest work forces to get into. Always was for 99% of people.


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  • #7
    PeteSanchez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭PeteSanchez


    Saadyst wrote: »
    Public sector workers don't seem to realise however, that it is the private sector that pay their wages, and the weaker the private sector is, then the weaker the public sector will become. Public sector is not (and should not be) something that makes profit, so this will always be the case.

    I find it hilarious when public sector workers mention "paying taxes".

    Does that justify the borderline hatred harvested here by many for all public servants though Saadyst? I am a private sector worker and I just dont get all this hatred :confused:


  • #8
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    PeteSanchez wrote: »
    OK murph, say two years ago so. Same scenario.
    Pete I just never heard of this taking the piss out of public sector workers on 30k during the boom? Perhaps it went on on building sites (perhaps you worked on them??) but not where I worked. People generally hadn't a clue how much or how little the PS worker was making and fewer people cared. They care now because the country is flat broke and that's really all there is to the debate.


  • #9
    FLievre
    Closed Accounts Posts: 55 ✭✭FLievre


    There is too many types of private sector jobs.
    Some are worthy and effectively they need help some are absolutely useless and these are the ones complaining the most.
    Pay cuts?
    Mother had them...
    Unemployed had them...
    Everyone had them...
    So they should of course have them too and get a life...:mad:


  • #10
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    PeteSanchez wrote: »
    I think to say anyone "fell into a job" in the PS is borderline ridiculous. When civil service exams came up in Limerick about 3 years ago I sat the exam in the Marriot with about 300 others. There were 4 vacancies. I dont think that constitutes falling into a job Declan. Its one of the hardest work forces to get into. Always was for 99% of people.
    This doesn't really square with your claim that the average public sector waorker was sneered at for earning a low salary Pete :confused: Why would there be a 80 fold oversubscription for jobs in that case!


  • #11
    gamblor1975
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38 ✭gamblor1975


    PeteSanchez wrote: »
    Now before I start, i will lay my cards on the table. I am an electrician working in Aughanish in Limerick.
    Private Sector.

    So, my question is this. Are private sector workers simply jealous of public sector workers and this is the main fuel that is keeping the current civil war amongst workers going?

    Some people on here seem to think Public Sector workers should almost apologise for having a Government Job! Why? Because they themselves dont have one perhaps?

    If you many of you had a PS job, your view would be 100% different to your current one, no matter how much you might say otherwise. Its all about agendas.

    5 years ago male clerical officers in their 30's in Local Authorities were sneered at, making their 30k ...

    Now...they are hated. Just because they were not sacked!

    So I ask again, is the real root of the antagonistic anti-ps hatred we see here, that private sector workers are jealous of Public Sector workers and thus are bitter?

    I don't believe that the majority of Private worker are jealous of their Public service counterparts. I think the problem is that we can all see what the problems are in the various depts. Not enough Garda on the streets, too many doing paperwork. Overpaid and underworked teachers (the senior ones mostly) and nurses refusing to answer phones during work to rule as if its some new form of technology that has been foisted on them.

    I think the main problem that the private sector has with the public service is its inability to trim the dead weight. People have no incentive to work harder/better and in fact are frowned upon for working more than their peers. I think the introduction of a merit based system would solve a lot of problem in the PS. Those who work hard are rewarded and promoted leading to better managment. Those who are there to pass time and collect their money would be soon found out and warned to improve.

    This is what we should demand from our public service. We should not have to bribe/cajole them into improving their depts. They should be coming to their bosses with ideas of how to improve this, save money on that, reduce waste here; This is how it works in the real world.

    This merit system would solve so many problems in our PS and the majority or hardworking Public servants would have nothing to fear from it.

    So No I don't think that people from the Private sector are jealous of those in the PS. I don't believe that the system they work under would be good for the country if it were adopted by the private sector. I do believe changes need to happen in how it is run though! I don't believe that is jealousy!


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  • #12
    Moonbeam
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,965 Mod ✭✭✭✭Moonbeam


    Yes,Generally I think they are and have been since the 80's.
    The job stability is something that the private sector can never offer.
    Then the other benefits like Pension,flexi time,bench markingshorter working week that not all private sector workers get.

    I do think it is 2 way to an extent because there were private sector workers that got the nice bonuses and the big money during the boom shoving it in the face of the Public sector.

    There is also the value for money aspect,we get terrible value for money out of our civil/public servants but that does not mean they all do no work and are paid too much.


  • #13
    Plates
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 925 ✭✭✭Plates


    I'm a private sector worker. I don't harbour any hatred towards public sector workers - but I do think that union leaders and some shop stewards could do with a few pokes with a red hot needle. :eek:


  • #14
    PeteSanchez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭PeteSanchez


    FLievre wrote: »
    There is too many types of private sector jobs.
    Some are worthy and effectively they need help some are absolutely useless and these are the ones complaining the most.
    Pay cuts?
    Mother had them...
    Unemployed had them...
    Everyone had them...
    So they should of course have them too and get a life...:mad:


    So in essence..

    he had them, she had them, so they should have them too...
    This guy is a classic case in point ..................:rolleyes:


  • #15
    USA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19 ✭USA


    I'm not jealous of the public sector at all, the "hatred" stems from the PS unions absolutely bleeding the country dry with their over-inflated staff numbers, wages and pensions.

    We as a country simply can't keep borrowing €20 billion a year to fund them.


  • #16
    woodseb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 876 ✭✭✭woodseb


    PeteSanchez wrote: »

    If many of you had a PS job, your view would be 100% different to your current one, no matter how much you might say otherwise. Its all about agendas.

    I can't agree with this, many of the PS employed people I know are accepting pay cuts and realising the relatively good position there are in compared to their friends/family who may have had larger cuts or been laid off. I would think I would be of the same view...

    It is significant amount (encouraged by the unions) who fail to see the big picture of the economic mess and are promising strikes and chaos - i think these people draw much of the ire on here

    It's not jealousy, although i certainly envy anyone having a guaranteed job no matter how the economy fares, i would not choose to work in the PS as it wouldn't provide me with my career path.

    If somebody in the PS thinks it is jealously, maybe they should ask themselves why people are jealous of them......the penny might drop then


  • #17
    PeteSanchez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭PeteSanchez


    its crap like this that made me start this thread.
    Lifted from the Barry Thread. Can we all see what absolute thrash this guy is talking???

    AMIIAM
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    Join Date: Mar 2008
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    Thanks woodseb. These pampered public servants have got to awaken to reallity. They have been grossly overpaid for whatever work they claim to actually do. I do not consider drinking tea/coffee, intertwined with their smoke breaks as working!! I believe the more energetic ones press computer keys now and then to convince their also overpaid orerseers that they really are worth their salary. I sincerely hope Brian Lenihan sorts them out once and for all with his next budget


  • #18
    The_Honeybadger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,207 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    murphaph wrote: »
    Pete I just never heard of this taking the piss out of public sector workers on 30k during the boom? Perhaps it went on on building sites (perhaps you worked on them??) but not where I worked. People generally hadn't a clue how much or how little the PS worker was making and fewer people cared. They care now because the country is flat broke and that's really all there is to the debate.
    +1 I just don't buy this "we were ridiculed and laughed at during the boom", it simply isn't true. Pete I also did the EO exam once around 2005 as it happens and the numbers applying were massive, for only a handfull of vacancies. Similar with Gardai when they were recruiting.

    I believe much of the hatred is jealousy tbh, that is human nature, if you lose a good job and are unemployed, or even put on short-time, and then hear your PS neighbour talking about strikes over relatively modest cuts to their often very good salary, of course you are gonna be jealous and frustrated. Many people are now regretting not applying for PS jobs in the good times, however like you say these jobs were not as freely available as some people make out, and there was always fierce competition from well qualified people for them. I doubt this dispute will end until we are back in full employment, and that ain't gonna be for quite some time. I know many PS and they are all good people, it is the ones that go on national media complaining that they can't live on 55k that infuriate people, as well as unions who spout utter nonsense on shows like Frontline etc.


  • #19
    Pocaide
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 279 ✭✭Pocaide


    I think the goverment spin doctors have been feeding all sorts of stories some true some not to pit public sector workers against private sector workers, divide and conquer to get some of their measures through


  • #20
    PeteSanchez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭PeteSanchez


    USA wrote: »
    I'm not jealous of the public sector at all, the "hatred" stems from the PS unions absolutely bleeding the country dry with their over-inflated staff numbers, wages and pensions.

    We as a country simply can't keep borrowing €20 billion a year to fund them.


    I see your point USA and broadly agree, however is that a reason to have a go (not you) at individuals on here who are cheeky enough to work for the evil PS and practically make them feel like they should apologise for having their jobs at all?


  • #21
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Pete I don't harbour hatred towards anyone unless they have done me serious personal harm.

    I am extremely frustrated as a private sector worker at the inability of some members of the PS and the unions to realise that if the money isn't there then there has to be changes. When you have a system that is based on a Victorian model then you can see where issues arise. The problem is not with the individual PS workers but with the whole structures and way that they transact their services to the citizens of the state.

    Its as if the PS has forgotten that they are there to service the needs of the citizens of the state and not the citizens of the state are there to serve them. Changes need to be made and the longer these changes are defered then the more painful it is going to be.

    Hatred is not the key word here, reality is and the sooner the PS and their unions grasp it then the better for the country.


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  • #22
    PeteSanchez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭PeteSanchez


    MickeyK great points. Remember the girl making 55k on prime time that night saying how she was on the bread line :D I cringed !

    But its not her I would defend, its the lads/ladies on the 25-35k wages

    I just cant see any justification for some of the venom spewed on here at them as individuals just for having the audacity to be a PS worker.
    Anyone on 55k, i could care less to be honest.


  • #23
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 17,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    PeteSanchez wrote: »
    If many of you had a PS job, your view would be 100% different to your current one, no matter how much you might say otherwise. Its all about agendas.
    Well I'm not sure about 100% - there's plenty of PS/CS workers here who want to reduce the cost of the public sector. It's the manner in which this is done, and the scale of it, that varies. Very few would agree that it's not an issue.
    5 years ago male clerical officers in their 30's in Local Authorities were sneered at, making their 30k ...
    Did they? I wouldn't have. Perhaps those in high-earning sectors, but that was (and still very much is) a perfectly decent salary for the work and conditions of a clerical officer.
    So I ask again, is the real root of the antagonistic anti-ps hatred we see here, that private sector workers are jealous of Public Sector workers and thus are bitter?
    Hatred is too strong a word. What annoys people is the way that many of the most vocal members of the PS/CS are going on about the injustice of a pay cut and why they're being singled out (regardless of the fact there's pay cuts, work pattern changes, etc. in many areas). It's more grating for some when those same people would refuse to acknowledge the benefits or recognise increments not being pay increases, etc.

    The real nub of it is of course that by resisting these cuts, the private sector will pay more in some way or another. So any private sector whose had a cut and now needs to take another (because the PS/CS are resisting) would feel that the PS/CS wants everyone to share their pain but not take the burden of that private sector worker's pain.


  • #24
    woodseb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 876 ✭✭✭woodseb


    PeteSanchez wrote: »
    its crap like this that made me start this thread.
    Lifted from the Barry Thread. Can we all see what absolute thrash this guy is talking???

    AMIIAM
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    Join Date: Mar 2008
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    Thanks woodseb. These pampered public servants have got to awaken to reallity. They have been grossly overpaid for whatever work they claim to actually do. I do not consider drinking tea/coffee, intertwined with their smoke breaks as working!! I believe the more energetic ones press computer keys now and then to convince their also overpaid orerseers that they really are worth their salary. I sincerely hope Brian Lenihan sorts them out once and for all with his next budget

    i agree - that's crap and i distanced myself from that comment in the thread


  • #25
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    Troll thread tbh...


  • #26
    BrownianMotion
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭BrownianMotion


    I'd agree with MickeyK, it's those individuals who aren't in a vunerable position and yet complain publicly who generate the animosity.

    It appears our media has decided to highlight the plight of certain cases where the completely blinkered individual in question is more inconvenienced by a cut rather than financially hurt. This only causes to increase the divide.

    So I'd say it's a mixture of jealously/justified outrage at a very small percentage of public sector workers.

    As an aside, I think it is interesting how you mention that even approaching the peak of the boom there were 300 applicants for 4 public sector jobs. Consider how many applicants there would be now for such a position.

    As the name suggests, there is a job 'market'. So when supply rises, wages fall. Hard to argue with that at the end of the day.


  • #27
    PeteSanchez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭PeteSanchez


    BrownianMotion wrote: »
    I'd agree with MickeyK, it's those individuals who aren't in a vunerable position and yet complain publicly who generate the animosity.

    It appears our media has decided to highlight the plight of certain cases where the completely blinkered individual in question is more inconvenienced by a cut rather than financially hurt. This only causes to increase the divide.

    So I'd say it's a mixture of jealously/justified outrage at a very small percentage of public sector workers.

    As an aside, I think it is interesting how you mention that even approaching the peak of the boom there were 300 applicants for 4 public sector jobs. Consider how many applicants there would be now for such a position.

    As the name suggests, there is a job 'market'. So when supply rises, wages fall. Hard to argue with that at the end of the day.

    I take your point Brown, but can you see how silly an earlier posters (declan i think) comment that people "fell into PS" jobs was also ?


  • #28
    WalterMitty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,582 ✭✭✭WalterMitty


    Firstly the private sector is not a single entity,some private workers/recently unemployed may be jealous, other just want fairness. Fairness you say , YES, what is fair and equitable about a well pensioned, job for life sector earning significantly more than the private sector that pays for them? (Public workers get more than private even before the pension and job security are factored in. Source;CSO)
    The facts are that the Irish public sector is among the best paid in world but Ireland is becoming a poor economyu again. Look at this article from David mc Williams, and it shows in 2004 our public sector was already best paid in Europe. http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/12/07/harsh-lessons-of-economic-history
    Many private sector workers just want to see their taxes spent in an efficient and effective manner. Public sector expenditure (including pay) has doubled in a decade, yet vast majority of people would say public services have increased little or not at all.
    It is unfair for the public sector to expect to hold onto their bubble era salaries and conditions when the economy is rapidly contracting and national debt is rocketing so much. I would rather see them take a further 30% pay cut rather than cutting 30% of their workforce as less would be subect to unemployment. Maybe they would only have to take a further 15% pay cut if worst 15% of their workforce are allowed to be fired without the unions preventing it. Every organisation has fat in places and more so in public sector where unions protect poor workers from being sacked like in a private company.
    The public sector unions are annoying everyone as they havent put forward any viable solution that is fully costed and rapidly achievable.


  • #29
    PeteSanchez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭PeteSanchez


    WalterMitty wrote: »
    Firstly the private sector is not a single entity,some private workers/recently unemployed may be jealous, other just want fairness. Fairness you say , YES, what is fair and equitable about a well pensioned, job for life sector earning significantly more than the private sector that pays for them? (Public workers get more than private even before the pension and job security are factored in. Source;CSO)
    The facts are that the Irish public sector is among the best paid in world but Ireland is becoming a poor economyu again. Look at this article from David mc Williams, and it shows in 2004 our public sector was already best paid in Europe. http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/12/07/harsh-lessons-of-economic-history
    Many private sector workers just want to see their taxes spent in an efficient and effective manner. Public sector expenditure (including pay) has doubled in a decade, yet vast majority of people would say public services have increased little or not at all.
    It is unfair for the public sector to expect to hold onto their bubble era salaries and conditions when the economy is rapidly contracting and national debt is rocketing so much. I would rather see them take a further 30% pay cut rather than cutting 30% of their workforce as less would be subect to unemployment. Maybe they would only have to take a further 15% pay cut if worst 15% of their workforce are allowed to be fired without the unions preventing it. Every organisation has fat in places and more so in public sector where unions protect poor workers from being sacked like in a private company.
    The public sector unions are annoying everyone as they havent put forward any viable solution that is fully costed and rapidly achievable.

    :rolleyes: Lord save us from angry men with no genuine viable reasoning behind their frustration.


  • #30
    BrownianMotion
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭BrownianMotion


    PeteSanchez wrote: »
    I take your point Brown, but can you see how silly an earlier posters (declan i think) comment that people "fell into PS" jobs was also ?

    The earlier poster might have been referring to the wonderful practice we have in this country of skipping the tiresome interview stage if you had a connection or two in the right place.

    So unless you were one of the plebs (majority), then chances are you did fall into a PS job.


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  • #31
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 7,004 ✭✭✭conorhal


    The public sector's belief that 'the private sector are just jealous' reminds me of the reaction I saw on Saturday night in a nightclub from a couple of 'wahs' to the bemused look on the face of some classy chick in a little black dress sipping a drink at the bar as she watched the two fat wheezers in boob tubes, wearing a pound of Mac makeup and wobbling drunkenly on the dance floor in a pair of Manolo's that looked as if a crow bar had been needed to apply them to their trotters, slapping every bloke that walked past her on the ass.
    "Ignore her Sharon, dat bitch is jus' jell-us" :rolleyes:


  • #32
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Look at this article from David mc Williams, and it shows in 2004 our public sector was already best paid in Europe. http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/1...onomic-history

    This article is entirely without figures, so doesn't show anything.
    The public sector unions are annoying everyone as they havent put forward any viable solution that is fully costed and rapidly achievable.

    The government has not put forward any plan of any sort, other than cutting people whether they are efficient or not or whether they are overpaid or not.


  • #33
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 17,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    ardmacha wrote: »
    The government has not put forward any plan of any sort, other than cutting people whether they are efficient or not or whether they are overpaid or not.
    That'd be the better approach but unions are fiercely resistant to even the notion that a single one of their members is ineffecient or overpaid. They wouldn't even look at this sort of reform, or would procastinate over it, and the government cannot afford a laboured combatitve process on this and needed to act now.


  • #34
    WalterMitty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,582 ✭✭✭WalterMitty


    ardmacha wrote: »
    This article is entirely without figures, so doesn't show anything.



    The government has not put forward any plan of any sort, other than cutting people whether they are efficient or not or whether they are overpaid or not.
    The articcle originally had a table of figures from Eurostat, and our public sector got lot more since 2004

    Quoting Eurostat labour cost survey 2004, McWilliams in the Sunday Business Post predicts that if Ireland continues to recruit and wildly overpay public sector workers,it will slide far down in the international economic performance rankings. That's because of the resulting unnecessary tax burden and public sector workers' likely opposition to reforms. The Eurostat figures show:

    []Ireland's average public sector pay in 2004 of €45,643 is the highest in the range of six advanced EU countries and compares with Britain at €35,189 and Germany €33,905. Irish public sector pay is 30% higher than Britain's.

    []Ireland is unique in the group of six in paying its public sector more than private sector pay,a whopping 28% more. And that's before valuing jobs for life security and gold plated final salary pensions.This is a form of state orchestrated looting of the private sector.

    []In the other countries, private sector pay is higher than the public sector's: in Britain by 8%,Germany 5%,Denmark 8%,Finland 12% and Netherlands 0.4%


  • #35
    woodseb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 876 ✭✭✭woodseb


    ardmacha wrote: »



    The government has not put forward any plan of any sort, other than cutting people whether they are efficient or not or whether they are overpaid or not.

    I'm sorry but cutting public sector pay is by definition a
    solution that is fully costed and rapidly achievable.


  • #36
    Thoie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭Thoie


    I'm in the private sector, and I neither hate, nor am jealous of, my friends in the public sector. I get frustrated at times that some don't seem to recognise what they have, particularly when it comes to pensions. If you mention paying for pensions they seem to automatically jump in with "that's minus the state pension anyway". Even with that, and with their new(ish) pension levy, I will pay far more into a pension fund than they ever will, and get a lot less out of it. One was shocked when I showed him my pension statements for the last few years and realised that it's worth an awful lot less than I had paid into it.

    I appreciate that they have some of the same frustrations that I've had in private sector jobs (things getting delayed, computers crashing, etc), but I get tired when I hear the following stories:

    1. I've taken a pay cut because I now have to pay for my pension. See above.
    2. There's a 6 month backlog, and they won't hire any new people to clear it. In the private sector that kind of backlog would usually be dealt with by unpaid overtime. Can you imagine if a large retailer told you there would be a 6 month wait before they could arrange your refund?
    3. Someone's contract wasn't renewed, and now I'm doing the work of two people. But yet you still manage to leave work at 5pm every day? Is that why there are 6 month backlogs?
    4. Well, there's a ban on overtime pay, so I'm not allowed stay after 5pm. Who won't allow you? Your boss said you may not do a little extra unpaid? Or is this a union rule?


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  • #37
    SkepticOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    I think there's some jealousy, yes. But there's also a sense that among us that we've let down the public sector workers by allowing a grandiose sense of entitlement to develop. Someone was talking about low morale among PS workers and I think it is this overblown feeling of entitlement that may be at the route of it rather than anything to do with cuts, which deep down most public sector workers accept need to be made. It is the dissonance between the irrational sense of entitlement and the rational understanding of the need for cuts over the next several years that is leading to the low morale, imo.


  • #38
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    They wouldn't even look at this sort of reform, or would procastinate over it, and the government cannot afford a laboured combatitve process on this and needed to act now.

    Granted quick action is needed. However the need for change has been evident for 18 months now, without any indication of a plan. The only message from the government is that we will proceed as politically expedient, which is exactly what they have been doing for the last decade. The negotiations before Christmas were a complete stunt by the government, there were 3 days for talks after the need for talks was evident for months. Sad to say but even this forum, despite the trolls, has put forward better arguments than the government.


  • #39
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    I'm sure there is an element of jealousy - and not without good reason; public sector workers do seem to have an easy ride (better pay, great pension, job for life, annual increments, good holidays, good conditions, relaxed regime etc*).

    On top of that, on a lot of the threads here they often seem to be living in a different world ("We didn't cause the problem, why should we have to suffer", "You could have joined the PS, but you didn't. Tough!", "We're going on strike even though our employer is bankrupt")

    There is a basic unfairness at the centre of the whole public / private debate.

    *Obviously, some of this perception does not match the actual facts.


  • #40
    epgc3fyqirnbsx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,228 ✭✭✭epgc3fyqirnbsx


    There is jealousy to an extent, thats only human nature. And there is conflict being built up in the media and on these boards.
    I wouldn't begrudge anyone for having a job, indeed I am very happy for them. But I do get frustrated when I hear many of my friends in the public sector argue about how they were stuck on the same wages when the rest of the country made millions. This is nonsense, a few got very rich but by and large, public sector always were well paid and continue to be well paid. And the pension is a really huge advantage....
    I'd just be very quietly happy to be in such a position now


  • #41
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    mickeyk wrote: »
    +1 I just don't buy this "we were ridiculed and laughed at during the boom", it simply isn't true. Pete I also did the EO exam once around 2005 as it happens and the numbers applying were massive, for only a handfull of vacancies. Similar with Gardai when they were recruiting.

    I believe much of the hatred is jealousy tbh, that is human nature, if you lose a good job and are unemployed, or even put on short-time, and then hear your PS neighbour talking about strikes over relatively modest cuts to their often very good salary, of course you are gonna be jealous and frustrated. Many people are now regretting not applying for PS jobs in the good times, however like you say these jobs were not as freely available as some people make out, and there was always fierce competition from well qualified people for them. I doubt this dispute will end until we are back in full employment, and that ain't gonna be for quite some time. I know many PS and they are all good people, it is the ones that go on national media complaining that they can't live on 55k that infuriate people, as well as unions who spout utter nonsense on shows like Frontline etc.

    the we were laughed at during the boom line has no basis in reality , it is a union invention designed to foster a sense of pity and persecution among public sector workers in order to prime them for millitantism and strikes


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  • #42
    Olduvai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 47 ✭Olduvai


    I have had the pleasure of working in both the public and private sector. Its not jealously! "Work to Rule" if persons are not doing their job I dont care if they are clerical officers or nurses they should be disciplined end of!

    What the public sector dont seem to grasp is that the economy is in total freefall, tax take is down, unemployment is unprecedented with little chance of employment, emmigration is raring its ugly head again, the brain drain is again a feature of Irish society, and while the public service may be complaining about levies and so forth, people in the private sector dont have the job security that many permanent employees in the public sector have and they dont have defined benefit pensions and tax free lump sums when they retire.

    Even the unemployed and other social welfare dependants have had their income reduced and people are actually losing their homes.

    It amazes me, in looking a some public sector jobs and the people holding these posts. Accountability from the top down in neglible - one only has had to look at ministers to those who were suppose to regulate. When many vacancies arise in Departments and agencies funded by the state the only qualifications of many appointees is that they are career civil servants! Rather than ceasing opportunities to instill new blood into an already institutionalized system they go with the safe option and dont rock the boat.


  • #43
    Welease
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    Jealous?

    Hardly.. If anything I feel sorry for a lot of them..

    Sorry that those who work hard in the PS and provide as good a service as they can, will get uniformly hit with the same cutbacks that their financially broke employer will need to make, because of the resistance to make common sense economy and efficiency rationalisations that the modern world demands.

    If some form of meritocracy and realism was brought into the service their pay and conditions could be maintained while the rest were cut free..


  • #44
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #45
    mkahnisbent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 163 ✭✭mkahnisbent


    Look, there are wasters in both the private and public sector, and it's fair to say based on much anecdotal evidence the problem is a tad worse in the public sector.

    But ignoring who is worse than the other, the problem is the fact that wasters in the private sector are only ripping off the shareholders, whereas wasters in the public sector are ripping off everyone.

    And of course, wages in the public sector are extraordinarily high for a near bankrupt country.

    Btw I work in the public sector.


  • #46
    Paulzx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,978 ✭✭✭Paulzx


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Can't argue with anything you have said. However, at present the government is only interested in instant cost savings and is happy to apply the broad stroke of across the board paycuts. It's quicker and yields instant savings. They're not interested in sorting out other ways of saving that might take longer.

    You are correct in saying that efficient, motivated and skilled wokers are carrying the burden of the slackers


  • #47
    Thoie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭Thoie


    Paulzx wrote: »
    Can't argue with anything you have said. However, at present the government is only interested in instant cost savings and is happy to apply the broad stroke of across the board paycuts. It's quicker and yields instant savings. They're not interested in sorting out other ways of saving that might take longer.

    You are correct in saying that efficient, motivated and skilled wokers are carrying the burden of the slackers

    Honestly, if the government turned around tomorrow and said that the 5% of the civil service who "performed" best over the next 12 months would get a tax free bonus and a small payrise, the next 90% would get a payrise in the region of 1-2% (performance based) and the bottom 5% would be fired, do you think the unions would accept that?


  • #48
    Count Dooku
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    Thoie wrote: »
    Honestly, if the government turned around tomorrow and said that the 5% of the civil service who "performed" best over the next 12 months would get a tax free bonus and a small payrise, the next 90% would get a payrise in the region of 1-2% (performance based) and the bottom 5% would be fired, do you think the unions would accept that?
    I have strong suspicion that 5% of best performers accidentally will be top managers…


  • #49
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Count Dooku wrote: »
    I have strong suspicion that 5% of best performers accidentally will be top managers…

    Should one expect otherwise? You want the best performers promoted.


  • #50
    Welease
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Should one expect otherwise? You want the best performers promoted.

    Promoted or compensated.. yes...
    Promoted to managers ... No..


  • #51
    MysticalRain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭MysticalRain


    I'm unemployed at the moment due to an injury and have very little chance of securing employment in the foreseeable future. I have two parents working in the public sector. I have worked in a public sector job previously (not in Ireland, but abroad). I have also worked alongside public sector workers when I was in the private sector. So I have a pretty good view of what goes on in the public sector. Some of it positive. Some of it negative.

    My politics are center left. So under normal circumstances, my sympathies would be biased towards unionized PS workers. However, the PS lost my support when I saw one too many over pampered fatcats on salaries of 50/60K and more complaining about how hard done by they were just because they had a small fraction of their wages cut. Yer wan on Pat Kenny complaining about being on Valium because she couldn't pay her bills or the mortgage on her rental property in Bulgaria. A 24 year old teacher on 42K a year berating Batt O'Keefe because she might have to cut back on her Celtic Tiger lifestyle so she can make her mortgage payments on the brand-new overpriced house she was conned into buying at the top of the market. Etc. etc. I have said before that the smartest thing the beards running the PS unions could have done would have been to tell their members to shut up and take the heat so as to keep the good deal that they had under the radar. Thanks to them protesting too much, the private sector is now all too aware of just how pampered and overpaid they are.

    I don't begrudge anybody a decent wage. Especially if they happen to be good at their jobs. I don't even believe that PS workers earning under 30K should have had any pay cuts (strangely enough, the lower paid seem to be the ones doing the least amount of whining). But it would be nice if the fatcats in the public sector would actually appreciate the situation they're in and just stop complaining. It is an awful lot worse for the 435,000 people on the dole as I can personally attest.


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