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Septic tank charges

1…34689…21

Comments

  • #252
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    I don't see much value in continuing to discuss your straw man. I've agreed it doesn't show town-rural transfers within counties, but it shows exactly what I've claimed it shows.

    Well it does. Another interesting 'social' transfer on a national scale is where law abiding parts of the country pay their taxes to run a Prison system which is disproportionatle populated by residents of Dublin and Limerick cities.

    And yet we don't give out about that.....any more than CAP payments are in any way related to Septic Tanks. :D


  • #253
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    If "Dublin" extracted Leitrim gas - a scarce resource which could be used by Leitrim to generate funds, I would expect "Dublin" to pay for it. And I would expect the cost of the Dublin-Leitrim pipeline to be taken into account.

    But Wicklow water isn't like Leitrim gas.



    That's not relevant, though, because someone who needs a resource is under no obligation to pay for it to compensate those living near the resource if they lose nothing in the process.

    That water is a worldwide scarce good is completely irrelevant. As long as water is a surplus resource in Wicklow - and it is - then Wicklow loses nothing it would otherwise be using. That's why the Leitrim gas analogy doesn't hold, because Leitrim could sell the gas or use it itself - Wicklow could do nothing with the water Dublin takes from Wicklow.

    Again, that's why the argument over Shannon is different - Ireland will need that water. If Ireland didn't need it, then charging for it would be a purely political move to keep people from being outraged at the UK's "water theft", as it would undoubtedly be described.

    And no, that people could be outraged doesn't constitute an argument, when you consider the vast range of things it's possible to get people whipped up about, many of which are entirely reasonable and fair.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    So your arguement is based on the fact that because Wicklow doesn't need the water then it has no right to charge Dublin for the water??

    That is a completly irrational viewpoint, and indicates that you believe that anybody who is not using a resource can have it taken off them by somebody who needs it - without paying for it.

    Comparing Wicklow water to Leitrim gas is in fact comparable, both are natural scarce resources that urban centres (Dublin in this discussion) needs. It is irrational to say that an urban centre should pay for 1 and not the other. Dublin has neither sufficent gas or water to meet it demands so why should it pay for 1 and not the other??


  • #254
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Welease wrote: »
    I was assuming (open to correction) that you produced the data as part of the urban / rural discussion that was running between a lot of people in this thread.. I pointed out that the graph contains nothing specific enough to make a determination either way.. Every county contains urban and rural areas, so I object to your continally dismissing my point as a strawman arguement.

    If this was not the aim of your producing the graph, then can you explain why you felt it was necessary? From my reading it was in response to a request from Waster81 for data to support Murphaph claim..

    I contended that the major urban areas subsidised the rural areas, and offered the figures in support of that claim.

    Where I think we may have got crossed wires is - and this is completely my fault, I accept - that to me "urban areas" in an Irish context is entirely synonymous with the four major urban areas. I wouldn't regard most Irish counties as having any urban areas - they have what are more or less market towns, which are themselves part of the rural fabric. I don't regard somewhere like Portlaoise as an "urban area".

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #255
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    So your arguement is based on the fact that because Wicklow doesn't need the water then it has no right to charge Dublin for the water??

    That is a completly irrational viewpoint, and indicates that you believe that anybody who is not using a resource can have it taken off them by somebody who needs it - without paying for it.

    Comparing Wicklow water to Leitrim gas is in fact comparable, both are natural scarce resources that urban centres (Dublin in this discussion) needs. It is irrational to say that an urban centre should pay for 1 and not the other. Dublin has neither sufficent gas or water to meet it demands so why should it pay for 1 and not the other??

    I'd argue, in fact, that it's meaningless to describe something as a "resource" that isn't being used. So Wicklow's water isn't a "resource" in Wicklow, because there's no use for it, and no attempt is made by Wicklow to collect, treat, or use that water. It becomes a resource only because it is collected and shipped to Dublin.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #256
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    murphaph wrote: »
    Neither water from the Shannon nor gas from Leitrim are actually piped to Dublin!

    If the midlands (how exactly do you define who "owns" the Shannon water?) wants to sell water to London, it will have to pay a fee to coastal counties to build the pipeline through "their patch".

    This whole thing is getting silly. The point was made that charging septic tank owners for inspections and registration was akin to subsididing urban sewage treatment systems. the figures were presented to simply show that this is not the case, that is all.

    The fact is that septic tanks provide no benefit to anyone but the owner, therefore the owner should foot the bill for maintenance etc. I mean, did people build septic tanks expecting repair grants or what?

    It is possible and probable that in the near future water will need to be piped to Dublin in large quatities - the shannon has been muted as an option so it is likely that in the next 25-30 years that this will happen

    It is pretty easy to define who owns the shannon based on the catchment areas.

    The introduction of water to the argument was made to show that although Dublin and Urban areas have a higher tax income, they are doing so based on resources (water) taken from other counties or outside the urban area. So you can't simply look at an urban area and say that take more in tax than they spend so they are subsiding the rural area, when the rural area is supplying a resource without charging for that resource. These resources help in the income generation of the urban areas


  • #257
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    I'd argue, in fact, that it's meaningless to describe something as a "resource" that isn't being used. So Wicklow's water isn't a "resource" in Wicklow, because there's no use for it, and no attempt is made by Wicklow to collect, treat, or use that water. It becomes a resource only because it is collected and shipped to Dublin.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    A resource doesn't have to be used to be a resource. It is the potential that it will be used at a price that makes it a resource.

    Now the fact that Dublin imports billions of gallons of water from Wicklow annually makes it a resource. The fact that Dublin is not paying for that water does not mean that it is not a resource, it simply means that it is a resource that is not being paid for

    Once again with Leitrim - if the gas is not extracted does that mean that Leitrim does not have gas resources??


  • #258
    Tora Bora
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭Tora Bora


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    It is possible and probable that in the near future water will need to be piped to Dublin in large quatities - the shannon has been muted as an option so it is likely that in the next 25-30 years that this will happen

    It is pretty easy to define who owns the shannon based on the catchment areas.

    The introduction of water to the argument was made to show that although Dublin and Urban areas have a higher tax income, they are doing so based on resources (water) taken from other counties or outside the urban area. So you can't simply look at an urban area and say that take more in tax than they spend so they are subsiding the rural area, when the rural area is supplying a resource without charging for that resource. These resources help in the income generation of the urban areas

    The air that they breath in Dublin, comes in over the Cliffs of Moher:cool: Shouldn't the Dubs, be sending a cheque in the post to the west of Ireland for that!!!:D


  • #259
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    It is possible and probable that in the near future water will need to be piped to Dublin in large quatities - the shannon has been muted as an option so it is likely that in the next 25-30 years that this will happen

    It is pretty easy to define who owns the shannon based on the catchment areas.

    The introduction of water to the argument was made to show that although Dublin and Urban areas have a higher tax income, they are doing so based on resources (water) taken from other counties or outside the urban area. So you can't simply look at an urban area and say that take more in tax than they spend so they are subsiding the rural area, when the rural area is supplying a resource without charging for that resource. These resources help in the income generation of the urban areas

    I would accept that as a general point, but once we introduce the issue of such currently uncosted services, we run into the question of the uncosted services that urban areas provide to rural areas, such as the costing of services that urban areas provide to rural ones which couldn't be sustained by rural areas alone, but also the contribution of urban earnings to rural areas.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #260
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    A resource doesn't have to be used to be a resource. It is the potential that it will be used at a price that makes it a resource.

    Now the fact that Dublin imports billions of gallons of water from Wicklow annually makes it a resource. The fact that Dublin is not paying for that water does not mean that it is not a resource, it simply means that it is a resource that is not being paid for

    Once again with Leitrim - if the gas is not extracted does that mean that Leitrim does not have gas resources??

    If the gas were of no use to Leitrim, then yes, that's what it would mean. The point about gas is that it's a saleable/usable commodity within Leitrim.

    It would be completely meaningless, for example, to describe mediaeval Leitrim as "having gas resources", even though the same gas was there then.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #261
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    If the gas were of no use to Leitrim, then yes, that's what it would mean. The point about gas is that it's a saleable/usable commodity within Leitrim.

    It would be completely meaningless, for example, to describe mediaeval Leitrim as "having gas resources", even though the same gas was there then.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    And water is a saleable/usable commodity both within Wicklow and outside. Go into any shop and see how much a litre of Tipperary Spring water is and the amount of shelf space it occupies. And this happens in a lot of countries throughout the world

    Yet billions of gallons of water is taken from Wicklow annually and given to Dublin without payment (directly)

    I would also disagree with your mediaeval arguement. Ancient leitrim did have gas resources - what it didn't have is the means to use these resources.


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  • #262
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Welease wrote: »
    Maybe .. maybe not.. There are plenty of people in Kildare who would be employed by large companies like Intel, HP, Bord Na Mona etc.. and the industries that support them.
    But Intel and HP are both in Leixlip, one of the biggest towns in Kildare and effectively a suburb of Dublin??

    Leixlip is not rural Ireland, it is very much urban. Bord na Mona employs very few people in comparison, and even then many live and work in urban areas (Newbridge, for example).


  • #263
    Welease
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    murphaph wrote: »
    But Intel and HP are both in Leixlip, one of the biggest towns in Kildare and effectively a suburb of Dublin??

    Leixlip is not rural Ireland, it is very much urban. Bord na Mona employs very few people in comparison, and even then many live and work in urban areas (Newbridge, for example).

    Well that proves my point about the use of terms like Urban and Rural :)

    Scofflaw's point is that Urban refers only to the 4 major cities (I'm assume Dublin, Belfast, Cork and Galway?), and Newbridge for example could not be considered as urban. I agree with you that urban areas can and do exist outside the major cities..

    Again noone is wrong, but it won't help a discussion if people are using definitions for standard terminology.

    If using Scofflaws terminology and data, then I would still argue that its not a simple urban pays and rural consumes, as many rural counties (Kildare/Meath) transfer more than urban cities like Cork or Galway.


  • #264
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Well the word is that we will all pay for water and rather soon. This will apply even if we have roof runoff tanks to collect it or wells to draw it from....and if the local authority refuses to supply us with public water as often happens in rural areas.

    If we all have to pay for it on the way in then surely we should all pay for it on the way out as well. :)


  • #265
    swampgas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,579 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Well the word is that we will all pay for water and rather soon. This will apply even if we have roof runoff tanks to collect it or wells to draw it from....and if the local authority refuses to supply us with public water as often happens in rural areas.

    An advantage of explicitly paying for something is that one can threaten to withhold payment. Not so easy in the case of water charges, but I can imagine a scenario where deficiencies in the water supply system could lead to non-payment campaigns by those affected.


  • #266
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Welease wrote: »
    Well that proves my point about the use of terms like Urban and Rural :)

    Scofflaw's point is that Urban refers only to the 4 major cities (I'm assume Dublin, Belfast, Cork and Galway?), and Newbridge for example could not be considered as urban. I agree with you that urban areas can and do exist outside the major cities..

    Again noone is wrong, but it won't help a discussion if people are using definitions for standard terminology.

    If using Scofflaws terminology and data, then I would still argue that its not a simple urban pays and rural consumes, as many rural counties (Kildare/Meath) transfer more than urban cities like Cork or Galway.

    No it doesn't prove your point. Greater London includes bits of Kent. Greater Dublin includes bits of Kildare, Meath, Wicklow and Louth. That is Scofflaw's point and Intel etc. only prove his point. Intel were never likely to set up in Carbury or Donadea, urban conurbations of Kildare??


  • #267
    Welease
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    Godge wrote: »
    No it doesn't prove your point. Greater London includes bits of Kent. Greater Dublin includes bits of Kildare, Meath, Wicklow and Louth. That is Scofflaw's point and Intel etc. only prove his point. Intel were never likely to set up in Carbury or Donadea, urban conurbations of Kildare??

    That wasn't the point being made....


  • #268
    Icepick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Icepick


    waster81 wrote: »
    So major infrastructural projects like the port tunnel, m50, luas lines, would the capital in those projects be spread over a number of years. Are those figures included?
    These are not free to use by Dubliners.

    Living in cities is obviously more efficient than living in the country, unless you are a hermit.


  • #269
    waster81
    Registered Users Posts: 749 ✭✭✭waster81


    Icepick wrote: »
    These are not free to use by Dubliners.

    Living in cities is obviously more efficient than living in the country, unless you are a hermit.

    no **** sherlock

    What are you on about


  • #270
    Icepick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Icepick


    waster81 wrote: »
    no **** sherlock

    What are you on about
    I made 2 points. Which 1 are you referring to?


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  • #271
    n97 mini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    waster81 wrote: »
    no **** sherlock

    What are you on about

    His points are conceptually quite simple, and also quite reasonable.


  • #272
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    mistermouse wrote: »
    A little off point, but

    Rural Gombeen politicians helped get us into the financial mess also and rural dwellers may find themselves being penalised now for poor planning and the costs racked up by politicians they voted in for years for pet project

    Seriously ? And if I mentioned Ahern and his pet Bertie Bowl project ?


  • #273
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Welease wrote: »

    Well that proves my point about the use of terms like Urban and Rural :)

    Scofflaw's point is that Urban refers only to the 4 major cities (I'm assume Dublin, Belfast, Cork and Galway?)

    So you list one outside the state and then skip the 3rd city of this state completely ?

    Strange assumption.


  • #274
    waster81
    Registered Users Posts: 749 ✭✭✭waster81


    n97 mini wrote: »
    His points are conceptually quite simple, and also quite reasonable.


    Yeah that was my point, rather too simplistic but heh I guess its at your level


  • #275
    Welease
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Welease wrote: »

    Well that proves my point about the use of terms like Urban and Rural :)

    Scofflaw's point is that Urban refers only to the 4 major cities (I'm assume Dublin, Belfast, Cork and Galway?)

    So you list one outside the state and then skip the 3rd city of this state completely ?

    Strange assumption.

    Swap Belfast for Limerick.. no biggie.. completely irrelevant to the point, but thats for taking the time to chip in...


  • #276
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Welease wrote: »
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Welease wrote: »

    Well that proves my point about the use of terms like Urban and Rural :)

    Scofflaw's point is that Urban refers only to the 4 major cities (I'm assume Dublin, Belfast, Cork and Galway?)

    So you list one outside the state and then skip the 3rd city of this state completely ?

    Strange assumption.

    Swap Belfast for Limerick.. no biggie.. completely irrelevant to the point, but thats for taking the time to chip in...

    I can only imagine the laugh I'd get if I'd left out Dublin making a similar claim.

    But re relevance - if the inspectors do the same as you and Google Maps and overlook us, I'll be happy out.


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  • #277
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,492 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I wonder are any of our 'we paid for your pipes' posters aware of the substantial charges of connecting to a public sewer? Paid for by the builder (development levies) and passed on to the buyer. See this thread.

    Scrap the cap!



  • #278
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    I wonder are any of our 'we paid for your pipes' posters aware of the substantial charges of connecting to a public sewer? Paid for by the builder (development levies) and passed on to the buyer.

    There is a continuing cost of operation of these services, so this is not really relevant.


  • #279
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    ardmacha wrote: »
    There is a continuing cost of operation of these services, so this is not really relevant.

    Paid for out of business rates, more or less. Which is why, again, the urban areas tend to be self-funding in this respect, because businesses tend to cluster in urban areas.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #280
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Paid for out of business rates, more or less. Which is why, again, the urban areas tend to be self-funding in this respect, because businesses tend to cluster in urban areas.
    Head offices do, disproportionatley in capital cities. So O2 Vodafone and UPC and eircom appear as economic activity in Dublin.

    Let me post _your_ table again Scofflaw.

    All Counties Sorted By Income of Recipients of CAP Agricultural Subsidies in that County. (descending) ...as it is column 4 that is a a 4d in the source.
    County|CAP|Recipients|Per Recipient|Pop|CAP/capita|Personal Tax/Capt|Total Tax €m|Transfers €m|Net €m|Net/Capita|Net + EU

    Carlow|37780624.3|2040|18519.91|45845|824.09|1355|190|244|54|1177.88|2001.98
    Cavan|67061232.83|5185|12933.7|56416|1188.69|1564|253|273|20|354.51|1543.2
    Clare|84633475.03|6689|12652.63|103333|819.04|1485|496|463|-33|-319.36|499.68
    Cork|237628799.9|14387|16516.91|448181|530.21|1676|2306|2205|(101)|-225.36|304.85
    Donegal|96295832.23|8777|10971.38|137383|700.93|620|461|733|272|1979.87|2680.8
    Dublin|23390165.7|869|26916.19|1122600|20.84|4289|7805|5404|-2401|-2138.78|-2117.95
    Galway|151082275.76|13403|11272.27|208826|723.48|1964|1009|1071|62|296.9|1020.38
    Kerry|110172226.36|8532|12912.83|132424|831.97|2447|499|612|113|853.32|1685.29
    Kildare|41508533.31|2355|17625.7|163995|253.11|1626|1131|735|-396|-2414.71|-2161.6
    Kilkenny|74607598.46|3651|20434.84|80421|927.71|1987|373|364|-9|-111.91|815.8
    Laois|51015041.05|2887|17670.61|58732|868.61|609|284|265|-19|-323.5|545.1
    Leitrim|39208803.34|3987|9834.16|25815|1518.84|2845|107|140|33|1278.33|2797.16
    Limerick|77978817.76|5754|13552.11|175529|444.25|1817|875|953|78|444.37|888.62
    Longford|33320587.99|2651|12569.06|31127|1070.47|944|135|177|42|1349.31|2419.78
    Louth|26880258.45|1679|16009.68|101802|264.04|1273|472|528|56|550.09|814.13
    Mayo|119112211.99|12312|9674.48|117428|1014.34|840|452|580|128|1090.03|2104.37
    Meath|64919345.69|3823|16981.26|133936|484.7|1204|935|557|-378|-2822.24|-2337.54
    Monaghan|54120148.48|4283|12636.04|52772|1025.55|865|217|246|29|549.53|1575.08
    Offaly|49969431.31|3012|16590.12|63702|784.42|1995|278|302|24|376.75|1161.18
    Roscommon|66381705.75|5924|11205.55|53803|1233.79|547|226|247|21|390.31|1624.1
    Sligo|44541636.53|4440|10031.9|58178|765.61|1681|262|284|22|378.15|1143.76
    Tipperary|144473163.12|7825|18463.02|140281|1029.88|927|613|699|86|613.06|1642.94
    Waterford|55091572.69|2661|20703.33|101518|542.68|1277|470|518|48|472.82|1015.5
    Westmeath|54058614.37|3521|15353.2|72027|750.53|6833|338|356|18|249.91|1000.44
    Wexford|84120094.78|4565|18427.18|116543|721.79|937|503|629|126|1081.15|1802.94
    Wicklow|38283190.87|2214|17291.41|114719|333.71|1274|717|512|-205|-1786.98|-1453.26


  • #281
    waster81
    Registered Users Posts: 749 ✭✭✭waster81


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Paid for out of business rates, more or less. Which is why, again, the urban areas tend to be self-funding in this respect, because businesses tend to cluster in urban areas.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


    Yet if a private dweller has something wrong with their water supply i.e. their own well its not repaired by the taxpayers

    Its paid for by the householder

    What we need is water rates based on how much it costs to actually get the water to the taps ( include the capital cost and the water consumption)


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  • #282
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    waster81 wrote: »
    Yet if a private dweller has something wrong with their water supply i.e. their own well its not repaired by the taxpayers

    Its paid for by the householder

    What we need is water rates based on how much it costs to actually get the water to the taps ( include the capital cost and the water consumption)

    I do believe that water rates/meters are in the pipeline (excuse the pun), so things may well level out in the future, with everyone paying for water and water treatment one way or another.


  • #283
    Tora Bora
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭Tora Bora


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Head offices do, disproportionatley in capital cities. So O2 Vodafone and UPC and eircom appear as economic activity in Dublin.

    Let me post _your_ table again Scofflaw.

    All Counties Sorted By Income of Recipients of CAP Agricultural Subsidies in that County. (descending) ...as it is column 4 that is a a 4d in the source.

    You forgot to mention, that the cost of food today, as a proportion to the average industrial wage, is lower than at any point in recent history.
    The CAP, payments to farmers, are the key to this. Most food is produced at or below the cost of farm gate selling price. Without the CAP subsidies, food production would drop, prices would rice, the consumer would pick up the tab.
    The direct CAP subsidies, to Irish farmers, are infact indirect subsidies to urban consumers.
    You can rest assured, the "gurus", who run the global economies, including Europe and USA, who bless and allow these farm subsidies, do not do it, because of love for the rural populations. In fact they dont give a sh1tt about the rural population, simply because they dont make up the big portion of the votes cast at election time.
    Their overwhelming focus is to ensure cheap food for the masses, who are largely in the cities and large town. The most effective way to do that is through farm subsidies.
    When you say your prayers tonight, say one for the CAP, that keeps your steak and chips affordable.:cool:


  • #284
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,528 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Sponge Bob wrote: »

    All Counties Sorted By Income of Recipients of CAP Agricultural Subsidies in that County. (descending) ...as it is column 4 that is a a 4d in the source.

    Yes, because all septic tank owners are farmers and receive CAP payments into their pockets . . .


  • #285
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    ninja900 wrote: »
    I wonder are any of our 'we paid for your pipes' posters aware of the substantial charges of connecting to a public sewer? Paid for by the builder (development levies) and passed on to the buyer. See this thread.

    Equivalent to the people paying for installation of their own septic tanks, which no-one has objected to.

    The issue - we're being told - is ongoing inspection and maintenance to ensure that it's not polluting.


  • #286
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Equivalent to the people paying for installation of their own septic tanks, which no-one has objected to.

    The issue - we're being told - is ongoing inspection and maintenance to ensure that it's not polluting.

    Which is something the urban areas fund for urban sewage systems out of the commercial rates paid by urban businesses.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #287
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Which is something the urban areas fund for urban sewage systems out of the commercial rates paid by urban businesses.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    So businesses are subsidising the sewage treatment systems of private individuals in urban areas?!!

    and how many companies have their headquarters in Dublin so pay tax as a "Dublin" company but the majority of their work is done outside of Dublin and/or abroad.

    More than a couple i would say

    This notion that you can say urban areas are paying X tax which is higher than rural areas Y tax is just plain stupid


  • #288
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Equivalent to the people paying for installation of their own septic tanks, which no-one has objected to.

    The issue - we're being told - is ongoing inspection and maintenance to ensure that it's not polluting.

    Which is something the urban areas fund for urban sewage systems out of the commercial rates paid by urban businesses.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    So urban dwellers get it free ? Whatever about getting it cheaper due to economies of scale or whatever, getting it free is not on (or so the urban-dwellers are telling us)


  • #289
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    So businesses are subsidising the sewage treatment systems of private individuals in urban areas?!!

    and how many companies have their headquarters in Dublin so pay tax as a "Dublin" company but the majority of their work is done outside of Dublin and/or abroad.

    More than a couple i would say

    This notion that you can say urban areas are paying X tax which is higher than rural areas Y tax is just plain stupid

    No, it's just meaningless for an urban dweller to claim that he/she is personally subsidising a rural dweller. The urban areas do subsidise the rural areas, and claims to the contrary fly in the face of the evidence.
    Liam Byrne wrote:
    So urban dwellers get it free ? Whatever about getting it cheaper due to economies of scale or whatever, getting it free is not on (or so the urban-dwellers are telling us)

    Since the abolition of domestic rates (1978) and domestic water charges (1997), neither urban nor rural dwellers pay for their local government services domestically - except where there are direct charges such as bin charges, parking charges, but those are all minor. Local government has been funded by commercial rates, rents, and primarily by the central government.

    The household charge, plus the existing rates and charges, will go to paying for local government services, which includes urban sewage systems in urban districts. If there were sufficient funding available through the household charge, I'm sure the government would be delighted to scrap the septic tank registration fee.

    Although I've drawn attention to the urban-rural transfer of funds in this country, this isn't an urban/rural issue. The reasons you're paying for septic tank registration has nothing to do with living in rural areas - you're paying for them because you have them, they need to be inspected, the inspection costs money over and above what the rural area local government level is already paying out, and there's not a ready pot of cash to pay that cost. Local authorities in urban areas already inspect urban sewage systems, there's no new cost, and those authorities are better funded because they can rely on commercial rates.

    If you like, though, you can pay my Dublin commercial rates, and I'll pay your septic tank charge and your rural commercial rates on an equivalently sized premises. I'll profit by the deal, I can guarantee.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #290
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    If you like, though, you can pay my Dublin commercial rates, and I'll pay your septic tank charge and your rural commercial rates on an equivalently sized premises. I'll profit by the deal, I can guarantee.

    Didn't expect strawmanning from you.

    Comparing commercial rates and domestic charges to support your argument is absolutely farcical, as is dismissing the point saying that "there's no extra cost".

    More sewage lines = more (time spent on) inspections = more cost.


  • #291
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    and how many companies have their headquarters in Dublin so pay tax as a "Dublin" company but the majority of their work is done outside of Dublin and/or abroad.

    More than a couple i would say

    eg Greencore, an Agribusiness company and Coillte a Forestry company. They all count :D


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  • #292
    n97 mini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Coillte a Forestry company. They all count :D

    Headquarters
    Coillte,
    Dublin Road,
    Newtownmountkennedy,
    Co. Wicklow


  • #293
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    No, it's just meaningless for an urban dweller to claim that he/she is personally subsidising a rural dweller. The urban areas do subsidise the rural areas, and claims to the contrary fly in the face of the evidence.

    The evidence is completly flawed as it takes no account of resources coming from rural areas without payment into urban areas or head offices whose main activities take place outside the urban area

    And this breakdown of urban/rural is pure bull anyway. Glanbia for instance gets its resources from rural areas of most counties in Leinster and Munster but the profits it makes are reported as Kilkenny. Do you class Kilkenny city as an urban or rural area? does it matter if you are inside or outside the ringroad in Kilkenny to be classed as urban or rural? What about the huge profits that Glanbia makes on its foreign operations which have practically nothing to do with urban or rural Ireland?

    that table provided earlier isn't worth the pixels it was written on quite frankly and proves practically nothing as it is an incomplete record of the movement of resources


  • #294
    BeeDI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭BeeDI


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    The evidence is completly flawed as it takes no account of resources coming from rural areas without payment into urban areas or head offices whose main activities take place outside the urban area

    And this breakdown of urban/rural is pure bull anyway. Glanbia for instance gets its resources from rural areas of most counties in Leinster and Munster but the profits it makes are reported as Kilkenny. Do you class Kilkenny city as an urban or rural area? does it matter if you are inside or outside the ringroad in Kilkenny to be classed as urban or rural? What about the huge profits that Glanbia makes on its foreign operations which have practically nothing to do with urban or rural Ireland?

    that table provided earlier isn't worth the pixels it was written on quite frankly and proves practically nothing as it is an incomplete record of the movement of resources

    And to make matters even worse, Glanbia, sponsor the Kilkenny hurling team:eek: They mop up resources from all over Leinster and parts of Munster, and feed them out to Henry S and the boys:cool:


  • #295
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Didn't expect strawmanning from you.

    Comparing commercial rates and domestic charges to support your argument is absolutely farcical, as is dismissing the point saying that "there's no extra cost".

    More sewage lines = more (time spent on) inspections = more cost.

    No, there's no new costs associated with the inspections of sewage systems generally, because they've been inspected all along. The septic tank inspections, on the other hand, are entirely new - that is, they haven't been done before (except in Cavan).

    In turn, that generates a new charge on the local authorities, who have to find that money somewhere. They could:

    (a) raise their commercial rates,
    (b) use the household charge,
    (c) get more money from central government
    (d) charge directly for septic tank registration

    Of those:

    (a) is difficult, because rural areas areas are the ones with septic tanks, while urban areas are the ones with businesses
    (b) the household charge appears to be already earmarked for other things
    (c) the central government doesn't have any spare money
    (d) generates a lot of whinging

    Now, of those options, (b) and (d) are obviously the most sensible, and (d) is obviously the fairer of the two.

    As to the commercial rates - mine have gone up another €300 this year to €1500 on a relatively small office, so I find the brughaha over a €50 septic tank registration fee rather laughable. Commercial rates are currently what pays for local authority spending, but I doubt commercial rates in your local authority area are anything like mine. I'd obviously welcome a return of domestic rates if it meant commercial rates went down, because overall I'd likely gain.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #296
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    No, there's no new costs associated with the inspections of sewage systems generally, because they've been inspected all along. The septic tank inspections, on the other hand, are entirely new - that is, they haven't been done before (except in Cavan).

    In turn, that generates a new charge on the local authorities, who have to find that money somewhere. They could:

    (a) raise their commercial rates,
    (b) use the household charge,
    (c) get more money from central government
    (d) charge directly for septic tank registration

    Of those:

    (a) is difficult, because rural areas areas are the ones with septic tanks, while urban areas are the ones with businesses
    (b) the household charge appears to be already earmarked for other things
    (c) the central government doesn't have any spare money
    (d) generates a lot of whinging

    Now, of those options, (b) and (d) are obviously the most sensible, and (d) is obviously the fairer of the two.

    As to the commercial rates - mine have gone up another €300 this year to €1500 on a relatively small office, so I find the brughaha over a €50 septic tank registration fee rather laughable. Commercial rates are currently what pays for local authority spending, but I doubt commercial rates in your local authority area are anything like mine. I'd obviously welcome a return of domestic rates if it meant commercial rates went down, because overall I'd likely gain.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    How about the bloody council cuts its costs (wages being a good starting point) or redeploys people to cover this new task

    What exactly has happened to all the people who worked in planning when building was booming? what are all of these people doing now exactly? are there none spare to be moved into a septic tank inspection division?

    Your closing your eyes to the reality by mentioning your rates increase (I am paying more on my water meter than your rates by the way) instead of questioning why they need a 25% increase in 1 year from you. You are accepting the increase but then laugh at others who dare quetion what the councils are doing to deserve to be paid this additional tax


  • #297
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    BeeDI wrote: »
    And to make matters even worse, Glanbia, sponsor the Kilkenny hurling team:eek: They mop up resources from all over Leinster and parts of Munster, and feed them out to Henry S and the boys:cool:

    For fear they aren't good enough as it is;)


  • #298
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    The evidence is completly flawed as it takes no account of resources coming from rural areas without payment into urban areas or head offices whose main activities take place outside the urban area

    And this breakdown of urban/rural is pure bull anyway. Glanbia for instance gets its resources from rural areas of most counties in Leinster and Munster but the profits it makes are reported as Kilkenny. Do you class Kilkenny city as an urban or rural area? does it matter if you are inside or outside the ringroad in Kilkenny to be classed as urban or rural? What about the huge profits that Glanbia makes on its foreign operations which have practically nothing to do with urban or rural Ireland?

    that table provided earlier isn't worth the pixels it was written on quite frankly and proves practically nothing as it is an incomplete record of the movement of resources

    I'd class Kilkenny as rural, myself. As to the rest of the points...the table shows what it shows. It makes very clear the pattern of transfers at a county level, and all of the points you make there are subsumed into that pattern already.

    I'm sorry you don't like the fact that rural Ireland is financially dependent on urban Ireland, but it's not surprising, given it's a situation replicated nearly everywhere in the world. Once you move from a primarily agrarian economy, cities become greater wealth generators than rural areas, which is why the long-term movement over history has been towards the cities.

    And I'm sorry the septic tank inspection charge isn't being paid for rural areas out of the surpluses from urban areas as most things are, but things are tight, and the urban surpluses are already needed just to keep the existing setup running.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #299
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    How about the bloody council cuts its costs (wages being a good starting point) or redeploys people to cover this new task

    What exactly has happened to all the people who worked in planning when building was booming? what are all of these people doing now exactly? are there none spare to be moved into a septic tank inspection division?

    Your closing your eyes to the reality by mentioning your rates increase (I am paying more on my water meter than your rates by the way) instead of questioning why they need a 25% increase in 1 year from you. You are accepting the increase but then laugh at others who dare quetion what the councils are doing to deserve to be paid this additional tax

    They're demanding a rates increase to make up the shortfall from developer levies, primarily. Whether we want to make up that shortfall is a question of what council services we'd like to see cut. Because there's a pretty direct relationship between paying local authorities and getting local authority services.

    In the case of the septic tank inspections, though, I would have thought it was absolutely obvious what they're providing extra - they're providing septic tank inspections. I accept that you don't want septic tank inspections, but the argument as to their necessity is pretty watertight, unlike some of the tanks.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #300
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    They're demanding a rates increase to make up the shortfall from developer levies, primarily. Whether we want to make up that shortfall is a question of what council services we'd like to see cut. Because there's a pretty direct relationship between paying local authorities and getting local authority services.

    In the case of the septic tank inspections, though, I would have thought it was absolutely obvious what they're providing extra - they're providing septic tank inspections. I accept that you don't want septic tank inspections, but the argument as to their necessity is pretty watertight, unlike some of the tanks.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    You have completly avoided my point about reallocating the current resources in county councils to provide for inspections

    I have never said anything about wanting inspections or not - so not sure what you are accepting:confused:


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  • #301
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    I'd class Kilkenny as rural, myself. As to the rest of the points...the table shows what it shows. It makes very clear the pattern of transfers at a county level, and all of the points you make there are subsumed into that pattern already.

    I'm sorry you don't like the fact that rural Ireland is financially dependent on urban Ireland, but it's not surprising, given it's a situation replicated nearly everywhere in the world. Once you move from a primarily agrarian economy, cities become greater wealth generators than rural areas, which is why the long-term movement over history has been towards the cities.

    And I'm sorry the septic tank inspection charge isn't being paid for rural areas out of the surpluses from urban areas as most things are, but things are tight, and the urban surpluses are already needed just to keep the existing setup running.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    No need to be patronising

    It is strange that 1 of Ireland's oldest cities is now classed as rural??

    I don't care whether you think rural ireland is financially dependant or not as I know that the methods used to show that the urban areas are subsidising the rural areas are completly flawed, the use of water being the most obvious example. You are unwilling to accept the flaws in the table and the meaningless of it

    What is worrying is that people might actually look at that table and believe it


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