Are you willing to join Anti-Government Protests?

Raiser · 22-04-2010 11:42am #1

I keep hearing more and more discussion about our levels of Public apathy in the face of this Governments actions, inactions and sheer dogged determination to ruin us all, and how their actions have been allowed to pass unchallenged by all of us as a People.

Our Government has been consistently and demonstrably proven to be self-serving, corrupt, inefficient and downright scary in the sheer breadth of their negligent incompetences.

After the shocking pushing through of the dangerously idiotic NAMA Bank and Developer Bailouts, we now have the "secret" Banking Inquiry behind closed Vault doors.

Given the State of our Health services, Schools, Roads, the HSE, FAS, Public Sector and the fact that our Government seems determined to put ever increasing numbers of People out of work thorough maintaining their past, current and future levels of poor form and stupidity.

Can you continue to stand by day by day and watch as Fianna Fail dictate their idiotic policy and pretence to The Green Party who then in turn promise to blindly and sheepishly back their corrupt agenda in return for some nonsensical little token favour thrown into their delusional and hopelessly harebrained midst?

Would People on here be willing to show up and conduct peaceful, well-organised Anti-Government Protests at each and every Government function, event, opening, announcement and other such propaganda exercise that happens in their own Region?

I think it is entirely feasible that these could be promoted and organised via the regional Fora on here.

I believe that ideally no Representative of our Government should be allowed to conduct any official duty, attend any function or appear in any official capacity anywhere without being met by an appropriate demonstration which accurately reflects the true levels of respect and approval we have for the manner in which they have been so shamefully handling the affairs of our State.

bamboozle · 22-04-2010 1:27pm

yes,

i heard last week more irish people protested against stag hunting that against FF & the banking crisis nama etc etc

Sleepy · 22-04-2010 1:49pm

I'd protest to call for a general election.

However, my fear of any anti-government protests is that they'd be hijacked by the PS unions and that my presence there would end up being used by the kind of people I would wipe my boots on to further their ignorant arguments.

Denerick · 22-04-2010 2:34pm

I'd be willing to protest about the 'coverup' of the banking inquiries, but little else. If the 'mob' had their way Ireland would have defaulted on its debt long ago and half the population would be halfway to England on a boat by now.

Liam Byrne · 22-04-2010 2:39pm

Denerick wrote: »

I'd be willing to protest about the 'coverup' of the banking inquiries, but little else.

I'd protest about NAMA, the bank guarantee, the votes of confidence for O'Dea and O'Donoghue, additional so-called Green taxes and the general "out-of-touchness" of the incompetent idiots who think they can milk us for small fortunes while paying themselves small fortunes for ruining the country and get away with it.

dsmythy · 22-04-2010 3:20pm

I think it comes down to the fact that we are a divided people. Many people just simply won't get involved in anti-govermentalism, so to speak, with trade unions or semi-professinal protesters.

Denerick · 22-04-2010 3:40pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'd protest about NAMA, the bank guarantee, the votes of confidence for O'Dea and O'Donoghue, additional so-called Green taxes and the general "out-of-touchness" of the incompetent idiots who think they can milk us for small fortunes while paying themselves small fortunes for ruining the country and get away with it.

You're more than entitled to your opinion and your protest. But it is exactly for those reasons, and the way those arguments are presented, that I would refuse to join the protest bandwagon.

scr123 · 22-04-2010 3:53pm

Would be of topic to say I would join an anti Opposition protest ?

Raiser · 22-04-2010 3:59pm

scr123 wrote: »

Would be of topic to say I would join an anti Opposition protest ?

To be honest you haven't said anything clearly at all, but if its in keeping with the below sentiment then I'm not sure your skillset, mindset or upset is required - Thanks

scr123 wrote: »

Wasnt aware till last November sites like Politics.ie and Boards.ie existed. Logged on as user to P.ie and had three great months taunting the ABFF till they ganged up on had me banned. They give but cannot take it. Then logged on here and made a few posts but was threatened by a Mod for no reason other than retaliating to personal abuse. Have not bothered for a while now as its the same old crapology from people with nothing else but a chronic addiction to hatred of FF. Anyway it get boring boring talking to the wall.
However, this thread is the most disgusting I have come across anywhere in the hatred of FF. Its pointless attacking the ABFF as in the case of P.ie I would surely be banned. Can get around the banning but for goodness sake if free speech is denied to one section of political life whats the point.

Anyway, can I just say I get down on my knees every day and thank the lord the ABFF did not win the 2007 election because for certain we would have 700000 to 800000 unemployed now and the soup kitchens would be all over the country !!

djpbarry · 22-04-2010 4:33pm

Raiser wrote: »

After the shocking pushing through of the dangerously idiotic NAMA Bank and Developer Bailouts...

Ignoring the rest of your hyperbole for just a moment, could you explain how property developers have been 'bailed out'?

anymore · 22-04-2010 4:33pm

Sleepy wrote: »

I'd protest to call for a general election.

However, my fear of any anti-government protests is that they'd be hijacked by the PS unions and that my presence there would end up being used by the kind of people I would wipe my boots on to further their ignorant arguments.

I absolutely agree with this post. I see my interests and the intersts of my family as being opposed to that of the PS workers. From my perspective, controbuting to the PS salary and Pensions fumds is going to hamper my own furure fortunes. It is an us versus them situation from my point of view and it was even before the recession. The fact that the documents outling the reasons for the original bemchmarking process were destroyed says it all.

Liam Byrne · 22-04-2010 5:03pm

Denerick wrote: »

You're more than entitled to your opinion and your protest. But it is exactly for those reasons, and the way those arguments are presented, that I would refuse to join the protest bandwagon.

What ? You don't think that entire list is justifiably objectionable ? :eek:

Enlighten me as to what you would change about that list to make it acceptable to you, and what ones you don't find objectionable.

Denerick · 22-04-2010 6:28pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What ? You don't think that entire list is justifiably objectionable ? :eek:

Enlighten me as to what you would change about that list to make it acceptable to you, and what ones you don't find objectionable.

Of course its objectionable, but in the real world I'd argue what we could do differently. I doubt a lot of thought has went into the anti-government position other than instinctive anger and self righteousness.

DeVore · 22-04-2010 6:34pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'd protest about NAMA, the bank guarantee, the votes of confidence for O'Dea and O'Donoghue, additional so-called Green taxes and the general "out-of-touchness" of the incompetent idiots who think they can milk us for small fortunes while paying themselves small fortunes for ruining the country and get away with it.

They can. I can prove this:

They did.

DeV.

Liam Byrne · 22-04-2010 6:53pm

Denerick wrote: »

Of course its objectionable, but in the real world I'd argue what we could do differently. I doubt a lot of thought has went into the anti-government position other than instinctive anger and self righteousness.

Sorry ?

Do you even read my posts on boards ?

Because if you did you'd know that a hell of a lot of thought has gone into my so-called "anti-government position".....otherwise known as a perfectly natural reaction to corruption, incompetence, greed and a complete failure to spot what I - as a not-paid-a-fortune ordinary informed person - saw coming over 3 years ago.

Mind you, I didn't see the bailout and stunning / sickening Government redistribution of wealth, because I was of the impression that capitalism and banking involves investors taking risks and being able to handle the consequences.

I find your attempt to imply that I have not put a lot of thought patronising and insulting; is it just because you don't agree that you're guessing how much thought went into it ?

You can't possibly know and are replying based on your own bias; so please stop.

Denerick · 22-04-2010 7:13pm

The lady doth protest too much. I wasn't referring to you personally Liam.

Liam Byrne · 22-04-2010 7:27pm

Denerick wrote: »

The lady doth protest too much. I wasn't referring to you personally Liam.

I appreciate that, but you're still happy to write off opinions of those who would have the same view - after maybe the same amount of thinking - as myself ?

I "personalised" it because I can stand over it 100%, but it could have been any one of one or two million people typing my post......would you agree ?

So without knowing, you can't say they didn't think about it.

Denerick · 22-04-2010 9:11pm

Most people seek a bogeyman when the country is in trouble, I think its an instinctive reaction. Personally my opinion is that I don't like FF, I won't vote for FF, but I think completely standing in their way on every national issue strikes of partisanship, not reason. And hence, why I wouldn't join an anti government protest. I'd rather they took tough decisions, even if unpopular, so long as they are in the national interest. If the government took the 'popular' path, this country would be down in the sink. Take for example the Greek protesters - if they got what they demanded, their country would sink into the Mediterranean and take the Euro with it. I think the Irish protestors are very close to this level of absurdity.

Liam Byrne · 22-04-2010 9:20pm

Denerick wrote: »

Most people seek a bogeyman when the country is in trouble, I think its an instinctive reaction. Personally my opinion is that I don't like FF, I won't vote for FF, but I think completely standing in their way on every national issue strikes of partisanship, not reason.

Not the case; I've credited them with one or two successes (the smoking ban and the new motorways).....the fact is, though, that their level of cock-ups, corruption and self-interest COMPLETELY outweighs any good they might have done.

Denerick wrote: »

I'd rather they took tough decisions, even if unpopular, so long as they are in the national interest.

That ridiculous line again ? :P

For the last time, FF are not unpopular because of their "tough decisions" since the crisis.

They are unpopular because of their actions which created the level of crisis that we have, and the ridiculous and incompetent decisions since, as well as their blatant disregard for fairness (not ensuring that the banks - who have no money - implemented pay cuts while simultaneously claiming that the country - which also has no money, partly because of said banks - implements pay cuts); paying themselves fortunes while telling the rest of us (public AND private) to suck it up. And that contrived "public vs private / divide and conquer" strategy is another example; if we ALL pulled together - INCLUDING the now state-appointed NAMA and TDs - we might actually accept a lot more, but FF's bias and lack of true leadership ensures that the imbalances and unfairness makes everyone dig in their heels......if a former corrupt banker gets paid half a million from the bankrupt State, why should someone on €24K take a cut that puts them below the breadline ?

They have no concept of accountability and/or fairness.

THAT is why they are unpopular.

Not because of any fictional "they don't like us because of the tough-but-neccessary (in their own view) decisions" bull**** that they delude themselves is the cause.

Denerick · 22-04-2010 9:26pm

Can you please explain the following:

A) How did Fianna Fáil cause an international economic crash?

How did the policy platforms of FG differ substantially on economic policy with FF over the last 20 years? (How do you deal with the fact that FG were clamouring for a populist slashing of Stamp Duty in the last election?)
C) What was the alternative to public spending cuts across the board?
D) Would you rather us having to call in the IMF?

You may be right, I may be right. But at least create an argument.

Liam Byrne · 22-04-2010 9:32pm

Denerick wrote: »

Can you please explain the following:

A) How did Fianna Fáil cause an international economic crash?

Quit misrepresenting and strawmanning. FF didn't cause THAT, and no-one claims that they did.

They did, however, ensure that it hit us far, far worse.

Denerick wrote: »

How did the policy platforms of FG differ substantially on economic policy with FF over the last 20 years? (How do you deal with the fact that FG were clamouring for a populist slashing of Stamp Duty in the last election?)

The devil is in the detail. If we had had a proper regulator, then there would have been none of the current fiasco. If FG didn't rely on the construction taxes for day-to-day stuff, then we wouldn't have been as badly hit.

Denerick wrote: »

C) What was the alternative to public spending cuts across the board?

How about not implementing Ahern's ridiculous benchmarking in the first place, or implementing it in such a way that it would reflect both up AND down, which would have been fair and forward-thinking ?

Anyways, this was after the fact. It's only required because of A and B, and is therefore irrelevant.

Denerick wrote: »

D) Would you rather us having to call in the IMF?

I don't know. At least they wouldn't be pandering to vested interests and ensuring we were all ridden up the hole.

Also, I couldn't see the IMF doing a midnight deal without demanding a look at the banks' books, thereby hanging us out to dry completely through a pathetic, naieve (or worse, deliberate and complicit) action.

They'd probably also tell banks - rightly - to go take a flying f**k if they wanted to pay their mates a few million here and there.

Again, this relates to NOW, rather than the main objection that people have with FF, which is that they CREATED the now, and are therefore incompetent.

Denerick wrote: »

But at least create an argument.

Then start by dealing in the actual issues, rather than toeing the FF line with "tough decisions" and option A, above.

Denerick · 22-04-2010 9:36pm

I'm not convinced that you really believe deep down that FF deserve unique blame for the economic disaster, and I'm not convinced that you really believe that any other political party would have reacted any differently. Every other ruling party in the western world (Bar a few exceptions, such as Angela Merkel and the Christian Democrats in Germany) face popular discontent. Why do you think that is? Do you think that they're all wrong? Or do you think that the problems facing us are particularly epic and that to hold one group with such unique and absurd blame is delusional.

P.S- 'If we had had a proper regulator, then there would have been none of the current fiasco.'

Now I know you don't really believe that. The mob (Who are short sighted idiots, you should always remember that there is no wisdom in crowds or popular opinion, just instinctive anger and irrationality) would have screamed with outrage if a regulator had touched their beloved private property boom. Hundreds of thousands of people were on the property ladder, any intervention that would have effected supply would have caused massive outcry.

btard · 22-04-2010 9:36pm

Sleepy wrote: »

I'd protest to call for a general election.

However, my fear of any anti-government protests is that they'd be hijacked by the PS unions and that my presence there would end up being used by the kind of people I would wipe my boots on to further their ignorant arguments.

I too would protest to call for a general election.

However, my fear of any anti-government protests is that they'd be hijacked by the right wing business sector and that my presence there would end up being used by the kind of people I would wipe my boots on to further their ignorant arguments.

Denerick · 22-04-2010 9:40pm

Why would the right wing business sector highjack an anti government protest? You didn't think that post through, did you?

Raiser · 22-04-2010 9:47pm

Sleepy wrote: »

I'd protest to call for a general election.

However, my fear of any anti-government protests is that they'd be hijacked by the PS unions and that my presence there would end up being used by the kind of people I would wipe my boots on to further their ignorant arguments.

Keep your boots tidily placed inside your own Front Door then - There's always an excuse for inaction and "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil our Government is that good men do nothing"

Liam Byrne · 22-04-2010 9:53pm

Denerick wrote: »

I'm not convinced that you really believe deep down that FF deserve unique blame for the economic disaster, and I'm not convinced that you really believe that any other political party would have reacted any differently.

Denerick wrote: »

Now I know you don't really believe that.

What ?

Oh, I'm sorry - you know far, far better than me what I believe....... in the voice of Fr Jack : "I'm soooooo sooorrrrryyyy"

How could I possibly have indicated exactly what I believe in the previous posts, and been soo wrong ?

Do you even realise how patronising, condescending, arrogant - not to mention downright wrong - your post above is ? How would you have reacted if someone said something similar about what you believe ?

You and FF might PREFER if I didn't believe it, but then that just shows how out of touch FF is.

I post what I believe, under my own name, and no anonymous poster on the internet has the right to post what you just posted; as a result, I've reported it.

You said that you wanted a debate, but if you're going to project and spout bull like the above, it certainly appears that you don't.

So debate away with yourself and your convictions and mistaken beliefs from now on........ [hits ignore]

Denerick · 22-04-2010 9:54pm

:eek:

Take a chill pill. Over-reaction. Or did I touch a nerve?

Raiser · 22-04-2010 9:56pm

Liam Byrne and Denerick I wasn't going to comment earlier because I thought you were both finished - This seems to be a personal disagreement between the two of you - With all due respect could ye please stop littering the thread, dragging it of topic and take your personal discussion to PMs?

- Mods I'd really appreciate a tidy-up......

Sleepy · 22-04-2010 10:10pm

btard wrote: »

I too would protest to call for a general election.

However, my fear of any anti-government protests is that they'd be hijacked by the right wing business sector and that my presence there would end up being used by the kind of people I would wipe my boots on to further their ignorant arguments.

I wish I represented the "right wing business sector". I can only imagine that I'd be far better off if I owned a business.

Can you enlighten me as to which of the union leaders has made an argument against cutting government expenditure recently that wasn't entirely ignorant the reality of our current deficit?

Raiser wrote: »

Keep your boots tidily placed inside your own Front Door then - There's always an excuse for inaction and "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil our Government is that good men do nothing"

To a point, I agree. However, when it comes down to it, the only actions I can see myself as able to take for the benefit of the Irish people involve actions both illegal and likely to ensure that my daughter wouldn't have me around while she was growing up. I'm simply not wealthy or connected enough to influence the politics of this state through non-violent action.

nesf · 22-04-2010 11:19pm

Guys calm down a bit please.

Raiser, leave the modding to the mods please. I appreciate you mean well but we'd prefer if you just reported posts rather than try to moderate users yourself.

dartbhoy · 22-04-2010 11:20pm

I would like to join anti Government protests but in reality it will never happen because the Irish people are too soft,prefer to moan about the government on a barstool instead of taking to the streets about it and there's a mentality with half the population because it's Fianna Fail in power they don't mind been screwed! In my workplace things are gone very quite now but yet instead of lads pulling together to try and see what can be done there is as**oles on the job going behind our backs to the boss offering to work at lower rates and work overtime on flat rates just to keep their jobs instead of everyone going on a 3 day week and been kept employed! That's the Irish for you,good at stabbing our own in the back!

patrickk · 22-04-2010 11:22pm

as Argentinians bellowed out during revolution " Que se vayan todos"

simonj · 27-04-2010 6:49pm

We can, and we should protest. Our current political caste is so corrupt and out of touch we have no other option.

But the only way to effect change is, as Naomi Wolf said, is to get on the streets and stop traffic.

There are other things you can do.

It is your duty, as a concerned citizen, to question the Government, and challenge the Government. Ask questions, look for answers.

The first way to do that is vote, and a lot of people suffered so that we could have that right, so use it - regardless of who you vote for.

Free speech is very important in our society, and the new blasphemy law is a violation of that.

We need to run things, not the politicians, we cannot leave it up to them - we are the agents of change - not the same political dynasties or corrupt officials.

We need to insist that the rule of law is not subverted and abused.
In relation to clerical child abuse this has happened.
Since independence we had no established church, and in 1972 we got rid of the 'special position' of the Catholic church in the constitution.
They need to be treated as a business, and people that those who covered up crimes.
We also need to ask why laws are not enforced in relation to corrupt councillors like Stroke Fahy?

We need to deliberate ourselves, in our councils, with our politicians.
We need to get involved, either by attending meetings or getting involved with politics, if you dont like current dail parties there are alternatives like independents and new parties

We need to insiste on all parties being open and honest - and even if our local representitive is decent and honest, if they are part of a party machine that has been found corrupt - then we cannot in conscience vote for that individual person.

djpbarry · 27-04-2010 9:20pm

simonj wrote: »

We can, and we should protest. Our current political caste is so corrupt and out of touch we have no other option.

But the only way to effect change is, as Naomi Wolf said, is to get on the streets and stop traffic.

We should stick it to the politicians ..... by pissing off motorists?

simonj wrote: »

We need to run things, not the politicians, we cannot leave it up to them...

So what’s the point in having elected representatives?

maynooth_rules · 27-04-2010 9:25pm

Would love to, but so many Irish people just don't care and won't go out into the streets. Instead of getting rid of the disgraceful shower that we have, they will bad mouth the opposition and say they are no good

Amhran Nua · 27-04-2010 9:39pm

djpbarry wrote: »

Ignoring the rest of your hyperbole for just a moment, could you explain how property developers have been 'bailed out'?

We could start with the many properties purchased for social and affordable, in some cases eating up as much as a third of local authority budgets, at 2006 values, which the councils are now trying desperately to offload.

Denerick wrote: »

Can you please explain the following:

A) How did Fianna Fáil cause an international economic crash?

How did Ireland become the I in PIGS?

Denerick wrote: »

How did the policy platforms of FG differ substantially on economic policy with FF over the last 20 years? (How do you deal with the fact that FG were clamouring for a populist slashing of Stamp Duty in the last election?)

Many people wouldn't have much faith in FG either. Their current poll success has more to do with the failures of their competition than any merits they themselves might hold.

Denerick wrote: »

C) What was the alternative to public spending cuts across the board?

Maybe making them back in 2001?

Denerick wrote: »

D) Would you rather us having to call in the IMF?

We wouldn't need to if the deficit hadn't ballooned in the last six years.

Genuinely though, FF is a union for politicians that want to get re-elected, no more, no less. The TDs that get voted in are voted in on the basis of the number of fences they got set up, or the number of parking tickets they made go away, the amount of pot holes filled in, not on their national policies. A lot of them wouldn't know a national policy from a hole in the wall, and they don't care, because most of the voters don't care.

The squeakiest wheel got the grease, and thats the way FF rolls, and thats why we are in the mess we are in today. Even their current policies are putting off the evil day, hopefully until the opposition is in, or preferably forever.

Transfer senior debt to the taxpayer so the markets love us, and keep lending at a decent rate, give in to the unions and use the borrowings to continue paying them, while the additional taxes needed to pay off the banks' gambling debts aren't needed for a few years yet, and done!

This keystone cops-style display would be funny if it wasn't an entire nation on the line.

jmayo · 27-04-2010 9:52pm

bamboozle wrote: »

yes,

i heard last week more irish people protested against stag hunting that against FF & the banking crisis nama etc etc

That was at the ff lite conference in Waterford.
They want to ban stag hunting affecting one hunt (The Ward Union Hunt) in Meath whose master, or whatever you call him, recently was one of the bailey brothers (now where have we heard that name before) and another prominent member was one caj haughey.

Denerick wrote: »

I'd be willing to protest about the 'coverup' of the banking inquiries, but little else. If the 'mob' had their way Ireland would have defaulted on its debt long ago and half the population would be halfway to England on a boat by now.

I thought you were one of those that was leaving ?

The more I look at the way people in this country are easily broken down on sectional interest grounds, the more it becomes very obvious why it took us 800 odd years to get self determination from our neighbours.

The only protest demand should be for an immediate election.
After that is granted then the parties can lay out their stalls.

Anyway I have now reached the conclusion that the die has been cast.
In the immortal words of Frasier in Dad's Army
"we are doomed, doomed I tell ya"

Our budget deficit is too great and the current government is too paralysed and incompetent to truly tackle it.
They are still playing footsie with the unions.
Sadly any government with Labour may not tackle it either.
The revenue receipts are falling all the time, so even with cuts we are only threading water.
Add in the banking disaster and we are the titantic in it's last hours.

Greece is going to fail, possibly followed by Portugal or Spain, but we are not very far behind.
Maybe then finally a fair chunk of Irish people will get off their ar**s and decide that what goes on in Leinster house should get more attention than whether Rafa gets the boot at Anfield or the love life of jordan.

Maybe then Iirish people will also figure out it is time for the nation to grow up and realise there is not some mythical system that we can screw over and that sooner or later the short term gains cost us big time.

shofukan · 27-04-2010 10:04pm

Yes.

Pete M. · 27-04-2010 10:15pm

I would and I will.
There will be protests, lot of them...

danman · 27-04-2010 10:26pm

I'm planning a very cunning protest.

I really think it will gather steam once it's announced.
You will not see a protest like it.
It will be on Twitter, facebook, bebo, all the sites.

I plan, on a specified date (undecided as yet),to go into my local primary school.
I'm going to get a piece of paper from a nice lady, with lots of names, pictures and boxes.

Then, here comes the cunning part.....

I'm going to put numbers into some of the boxes, fold the paper and put it into a black box.....

Cunning, yet genious.

27-04-2010 10:49pm

danman wrote: »

Cunning, yet genious.

yes...genius..

danman · 27-04-2010 11:22pm

Deleted User wrote: »

yes...genius..

My dyslexia is probably the reason why I'll let someone else organise it.

But it will happen.....!!!!!!!

Pride Fighter · 27-04-2010 11:41pm

I've been on many anti-government marches in the past 2 years. I'd join my friends in the SWP at first even though I dislike their politics. Recently I've been attending with the Labour party. Its important to exercise my democratic right of peaceful protest. Particularly considering how incompetent Fianna Fail are.

djpbarry · 28-04-2010 11:46am

Amhran Nua wrote: »

We could start with the many properties purchased for social and affordable, in some cases eating up as much as a third of local authority budgets, at 2006 values, which the councils are now trying desperately to offload.

Ok, that’s a fair point – perhaps I had incorrectly assumed that NAMA was being referred to.

simonj · 28-04-2010 5:32pm

djpbarry wrote: »

We should stick it to the politicians ..... by pissing off motorists?

I am afraid the only people that have effected real change, hauliers, taxi drivers etc - have had to resort to this, it is the only way to put pressure on the government, its something that makes the news, and forces them to take quicker action - look at how long the go slow has gone on, with little or no effect

djpbarry wrote: »

So what’s the point in having elected representatives?

Well, considering how many senators are appointed and councillors co-opted, our public representation system is flawed.
They work for us, they should fear us, instead, local candidates virtually disassociate themselves from the party, and we vote for the individual - putting FF or FG back time and time again.

Doing the same thing over and over does not produce a different result

Einhard · 29-04-2010 2:50am

I'll make my anti-government protest in the next General Election, in the manner of a democrat living in a democracy. You can't sign up to the principles of parliamentary democracy and then seek to ignore them once they've bcome inconvenient. That's a recipe for short term populism at best, and mob rule at worst, and neither provide a sound model on which to run a society.

Incidentally, all this clamour for revolts and coups d'etat(essentially, that's what mass action with the aim of bringing down a democratically elected government amounts to), might lead one to believe that FF didn't win a mandate in 2007. It would be amusing, if it didn't reflect so badly on the immaturity of our political consciousness, to think that so many of those agitating for the downfall of the current administration actually elected them in the first place. I have no time for FF, but I can at least acknowledge that they more or less gave the masses what they wanted. It wasn't just Fingers Fingleton who disdained regulation for example. Imagine the headlines had the govt c. 2005 moved to restrict access to the property ladder. It would have been the responsible thing to do no doubt, and would have gone some way to mitigate the fiscal crisis we now find ourselves in, but the govt would have been exorciated for it. And then thrown out by the electorate.

We get the government we vote for; we get the policies we deserve. And like it or not, the public were complicit in the policies adopted by successive FF administrations, either directly by voting for FF, or indirectly by not signalling to the other parties that we wanted a more responsible, sustainable direction. Proof of this lies in a comparison of the 2007 manifestos of the top three parties. Scarely a punctuation mark diffrentiates them. There is nothing about regulation, not a whit about slowly deflating the housing bubble, but much about tax breaks and other goodies. Had FG or Labour governed over the past 10 years, they would hardly have done anything differently. That is what has led us to the current situation. And for that, we have ourselves to blame as well as the politicians for whom we voted.

Amhran Nua · 29-04-2010 8:14am

Einhard wrote: »

I have no time for FF, but I can at least acknowledge that they more or less gave the masses what they wanted.

Nope, most of the voters weren't aware of much beyond the local level, and thats what TDs pandered to. People voted for TDs not FF. Its a great headless money machine that will always take the easiest route.

As for the protest posts, I wouldn't worry too much about them, thats mostly just the trots and marxists agitating towards their red dawn. It seems sadly ironic that the main impediment to the downfall of the government by popular protest is the existence of these groups whose preferred method of overthrowing a government is popular protest.

Raiser · 29-04-2010 12:02pm

Einhard wrote: »

I'll make my anti-government protest in the next General Election, in the manner of a democrat living in a democracy. You can't sign up to the principles of parliamentary democracy and then seek to ignore them once they've bcome inconvenient. That's a recipe for short term populism at best, and mob rule at worst, and neither provide a sound model on which to run a society.

Incidentally, all this clamour for revolts and coups d'etat(essentially, that's what mass action with the aim of bringing down a democratically elected government amounts to), might lead one to believe that FF didn't win a mandate in 2007. It would be amusing, if it didn't reflect so badly on the immaturity of our political consciousness, to think that so many of those agitating for the downfall of the current administration actually elected them in the first place. I have no time for FF, but I can at least acknowledge that they more or less gave the masses what they wanted. It wasn't just Fingers Fingleton who disdained regulation for example. Imagine the headlines had the govt c. 2005 moved to restrict access to the property ladder. It would have been the responsible thing to do no doubt, and would have gone some way to mitigate the fiscal crisis we now find ourselves in, but the govt would have been exorciated for it. And then thrown out by the electorate.

We get the government we vote for; we get the policies we deserve. And like it or not, the public were complicit in the policies adopted by successive FF administrations, either directly by voting for FF, or indirectly by not signalling to the other parties that we wanted a more responsible, sustainable direction. Proof of this lies in a comparison of the 2007 manifestos of the top three parties. Scarely a punctuation mark diffrentiates them. There is nothing about regulation, not a whit about slowly deflating the housing bubble, but much about tax breaks and other goodies. Had FG or Labour governed over the past 10 years, they would hardly have done anything differently. That is what has led us to the current situation. And for that, we have ourselves to blame as well as the politicians for whom we voted.

With all due respect - If I disagreed with specific points I'd say so and detail my opposing point of view with supporting arguments.

- Since I disagree with all of the above position, sentiment, arguments, leaps from tenuous stance to suspect conclusion etc. it saves me going to all that effort.....

Einhard · 29-04-2010 3:33pm

Raiser wrote: »

With all due respect - If I disagreed with specific points I'd say so and detail my opposing point of view with supporting arguments.

- Since I disagree with all of the above position, sentiment, arguments, leaps from tenuous stance to suspect conclusion etc. it saves me going to all that effort.....

With all due respect...

Why is it that this phrase is so often trotted out just before someone goes on to display a complete lack of it??

I find it strange that someone would go to the trouble of informing me of how they completely disagree with a position of mine, and then not bother to explain how or why.

Are you one of those people perhaps who believe that an electorate should bear absolutely no responsibility for the government they elect, and for the governance they demand through their (in)actions?

Certainly FF shoulder the main burden of responsibility for the state we're in, but the fabled "man on the street" has to recognise his role too. If not, then we'll find ourselves in the same position in another 20 years, with the electorate continuing to vote out of short term, opportunistic interest, to the detriement of good governance.

I pretty much disagree completely with the platforms of the Socialist Party, Richard Boyd Barrett etc, but I can at least grudgingly respect them and their supporters for actually putting some thought into their politics and their vote. If more of the electorate took such a stance then maybe we wouldn't be in our current situation.

Einhard · 29-04-2010 3:39pm

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Nope, most of the voters weren't aware of much beyond the local level, and thats what TDs pandered to. People voted for TDs not FF. Its a great headless money machine that will always take the easiest route.

Agree with you to a point. But no matter how much a support an individual TD might have amongst his contituents, if his party didn't offer the same inducements and promises to the voter as competing parties, he wouldn't be long for the political world. Either way though, it points to degree of political immaturity on the part of a sizeable proportion of Irish voters which goes some way to explaining our current straitened situation.

Raiser · 29-04-2010 5:11pm

Einhard wrote: »

Are you one of those people perhaps who believe that an electorate should bear absolutely no responsibility for the government they elect, and for the governance they demand through their (in)actions.

What is this? An opinion on collective responsibility? Putting forth a view on individual atonement for the sins of Others? Should we just nod and then humbly accept another 5, 10 or 15 years of destructive, retrograde governance with humility?

What exactly the did "Man on the Street" do to so deserve this horrible indictment you are so anxious to lay on his battered, beaten and weary shoulders?

- Finally, what entitles you to personally apportion blame on individual People as you are now doing in line with whatever criteria you and you alone have considered and judged fit for this task?

Are you willing to join Anti-Government Protests?

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