The Winds of Winter (Book 6 Discussion) SPOILERS for all books & future books

johnnyskeleton · 02-11-2013 11:48pm

They should get him a team of researchers, editors and ghost writers to help churn them out.

Ok, it lacks a certain romantic appeal of the artist carefully crafting his books, but it's better than what happened with the wheel of time ie gettig bogged down and then someone else having to finish it off.

Tom.D.BJJ · 06-11-2013 3:32pm

intellectual dosser wrote: »

I think the fact that he has released/publicly spoken about certain chapters shows that he has most of WOW written. When a writer discloses information about a story they give up their ability to go back and change it. I don't think Martin would have divulged the information unless he knew where everything was going.

It seems all he should have left to do is to complete and revise. 2015 is giving him an awful amount of time IMO.

Not actually true. He changed a lot of stuff from the spoiler/teaser chapters of previous books to what was actually released.

intellectual dosser · 06-11-2013 3:40pm

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

Not actually true. He changed a lot of stuff from the spoiler/teaser chapters of previous books to what was actually released.

OK, I didnt know that. Is that not a bit.....fraudulent! (and cruel in a way)

Mr Freeze · 06-11-2013 3:41pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Even his wife reckons it'll be 3 books.

Oh don't say that, if its 3 books, its not going to get finished.

Sleepy · 06-11-2013 6:08pm

Very morbid analysis coming up...

A 65-year-old American man can expect to live to 81.6 according to Harvard (http://www.health.harvard.edu/press_releases/average-life-expectancy).

Although an over-weight 65 who wouldn't appear to lead the healthiest of lifestyles, George RR Martin is a very wealthy man who'd presumably have top tier health insurance. Assuming this means he can expect to meet the average live expectancy it gives him about 16 years to complete the series. Given that he's now had about 18 months to work on Winds, that leaves almost 6 years per book if it takes another 3 and, from everything he's told us, he's over the hardest books to write (which both took that length, the previous books taking an average of about 3 years) so I'd think it's a reasonably safe bet he'll finish.

hidinginthebush · 06-11-2013 10:48pm

I dunno Sleepy. The series just smacks of something without any definite direction, just a vague idea, indicated by the fact that it was initially planned to be 3 books, and we're now looking at 7, possibly 8. The fact that he revealed the end to the HBO lads means that he now has had to commit to some sort of end, but I still think he is under the danger of writing himself into knots (the Merenesse one took him months to get over).

I was annoyed to hear that he has said in the past that if he dies before the end, that's it. I think we can all agree that it's an epic we want to see completed. And if he sadly dies before the end, it would be great to have a ghost writer (no pun intended) finish it out. I haven't read the wheel of time series, but Brandon Sanderson finished it out (his own books are AWESOME by the way), and David Gemmell's wife finished out the Troy trilogy in a good manner, so it has been done before. Also, it would be very annoying to have the series finished out by the show. While it's watchable, it deviates from the books in such unnecessary ways as to render a book reader neck-beard frustrated at the best of times.

Walt Grace · 06-11-2013 11:12pm

I think Sanderson did a great job finishing off the Wheel of Time - really managed to pull all the loose threads together. Would be a great choice to finish ASOIAF if needs be.
Probably see the ending on tv first though!

hidinginthebush wrote: »

I dunno Sleepy. The series just smacks of something without any definite direction, just a vague idea, indicated by the fact that it was initially planned to be 3 books, and we're now looking at 7, possibly 8. The fact that he revealed the end to the HBO lads means that he now has had to commit to some sort of end, but I still think he is under the danger of writing himself into knots (the Merenesse one took him months to get over).

I was annoyed to hear that he has said in the past that if he dies before the end, that's it. I think we can all agree that it's an epic we want to see completed. And if he sadly dies before the end, it would be great to have a ghost writer (no pun intended) finish it out. I haven't read the wheel of time series, but Brandon Sanderson finished it out (his own books are AWESOME by the way), and David Gemmell's wife finished out the Troy trilogy in a good manner, so it has been done before. Also, it would be very annoying to have the series finished out by the show. While it's watchable, it deviates from the books in such unnecessary ways as to render a book reader neck-beard frustrated at the best of times.

Sleepy · 07-11-2013 12:56am

I'm actually on the second last of Jordan's books in the Wheel of Time series at the moment. There's actually more than a few references to Robert Jordan in ASOIAF (Lord Trebor of the House Jordayne of the Tor, Archmaester Rigney is mentioned as theorising that time is a wheel - Robert Jordan's real name was Oliver Rigney).

I'm also a big fan of Sanderson's Mistborn series - I think Maisie Williams is the perfect casting for Val if they ever make it into a movie - and plan to read more of his stuff after I finally finish the Wheel of Time.

I'd agree that Martin's attitude to someone finishing his series in the event that he can't is disappointing but I do think he'll finish it. Re-reading A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons reveals them to be far better books than I first thought. The detail and sub-text in both is staggering once you get past the "have to find out what happens next" feeling that makes you race through them.

Martin has described himself as more of a "gardener" than an "architect" of a writer but I think I can see where ASOIAF is going and I genuinely can't see how he could drag it out for more than another 3 books (unless he gets into Jordan levels of skirt smoothing, braid tugging and superfluous detail).

GerB40 · 07-11-2013 2:56am

Sleepy wrote: »

I'm actually on the second last of Jordan's books in the Wheel of Time series at the moment. There's actually more than a few references to Robert Jordan in ASOIAF (Lord Trebor of the House Jordayne of the Tor, Archmaester Rigney is mentioned as theorising that time is a wheel - Robert Jordan's real name was Oliver Rigney).

I'm also a big fan of Sanderson's Mistborn series - I think Maisie Williams is the perfect casting for Val if they ever make it into a movie - and plan to read more of his stuff after I finally finish the Wheel of Time.

I'd agree that Martin's attitude to someone finishing his series in the event that he can't is disappointing but I do think he'll finish it. Re-reading A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons reveals them to be far better books than I first thought. The detail and sub-text in both is staggering once you get past the "have to find out what happens next" feeling that makes you race through them.

Martin has described himself as more of a "gardener" than an "architect" of a writer but I think I can see where ASOIAF is going and I genuinely can't see how he could drag it out for more than another 3 books (unless he gets into Jordan levels of skirt smoothing, braid tugging and superfluous detail).

I completely agree with you on re-reading AFFC and ADWD. So far us book readers (so called Sullied) are waiting for MASSIVE pay off from the last two books. By all accounts TWOW starts with a huge battle which should close some storylines and quickly accelerate others. Two books is plenty if he goes back to the writing style of the first three books. Supposing we already know all the main characters we can then compare the beginning of GOT to the end of ACOK. Look how many storylines began and ended in those two books... Martin could get three books but two would be both better for the reader and easier for him. Here's hoping he cops on..

PhlegmyMoses · 07-11-2013 3:34am

Firstly, I presume that we all agree that most character's arcs are building towards a part in the battle with the Others?

Gbear wrote: »

In his 11 chapters in Dance Tyrion was able to get from Westeros to Mereen via a pretty circuitous route. Ayra should be able to go the few hundred miles to Westeros in 1 or 2.
I'm not sure Bran is going anywhere.

I'm not talking about from a geographical POV, per se. Arya has only just been initiated into the group of faceless men. She's only just had her first kill and she's not very far along in that arc. How do you get her from assassin initiate, to being somehow involved in a war with The Others in two books that will be tying up loose ends for around 20 characters?

Same goes for Bran. He's only now starting to learn about his powers after 3 books of travelling, essentially. How do you get him from that point to major player (potentially) in the fight against (or with

) the Others?

That's not even going into the myriad other characters that could play a part but are only at the beginning of a seemingly new arc. Sam is in the Citadel to learn about the Others, I'd imagine. In fact, we'll probably learn a deal about what the Maesters get up to and what their game is. Jaime would be part of any battle and he and Cersei have unfinished business. Littlefinger is still faffing about in the Vale with bigger plans in mind. Jon will start a whole new arc if he's not killed off. The Iron Islanders are on relatively new arcs themselves with the likes of the Damphair nowhere to be seen. Nobody apart from Stannis and the Night's Watch even believe the Others exist, not even the Northmen like Bolton so that'll have to change. Rickon probably has a part to play that hasn't really started yet. Aegon is down south with Griff. Essentially, Dany is one of the only main characters at the end of an arc and ready to start her end game. Actually, Tyrion probably is as well.

You get the drift, loads of characters that aren't very far along in their arcs that need it all finished within 2 books, and then a war with the Others thrown in for good measure. Maybe I'm overstating the importance of some characters as it's hard to know who are the major players at this point, but that's a lot to finish off in two 1200 page books.

There's no way it'd take an entire book to show any battle in the series. They showed the battle at the wall from 1 point of view (Jon's) in, I think, 3 or 4 chapters (including the Magnar of Thenn's sneak attack).
If such a battle takes place, in all likelihood, there will be several points of view focusing on it. Even if it's enormous I can't see how there'd be much more than 10-15 chapters. It'd just get boring.

But the Others are THE enemy. Awakened after thousands of years without a sighting. Very few discernible ways of killing them. It's what the series is building up to. It's not 100,000 wildlings, it's the enemy that almost destroyed mankind before. I'd imagine it's not just going to be a battle at the Wall. All characters will have to be affected in some way by it, I'd imagine. Unless GRRM goes with a select few to defeat them and leaves everyone else oblivious or not bothered by it. Which would need to be done well to make sense. One way or the other, it can't just be ended quickly. Otherwise, what was everyone so worried about?

I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the next book we've lost Barristan, Victarion, Areo Hotah and one of Theon or Asha. We'd already lost Quentyn and Jaime and Brienne are likely to be merged given they're in both the same place (or else they'll have half the number of chapters each to give both points of view).

I agree, get rid of all of those. You still have reams of chapters to write to finish off the remaining 15-20 POV characters' arcs along with all the seemingly important peripherals like Littlefinger, Rickon, Aegon, The Boltons, the Freys, the Martells, Varys, all the **** in Meereen etc.

He may only write 2 books, but I suspect that after TWOW is released or near completion, we may hear word that he requires 3.

Paddy Cow · 07-11-2013 3:02pm

GerB40 wrote: »

I completely agree with you on re-reading AFFC and ADWD. So far us book readers (so called Sullied) are waiting for MASSIVE pay off from the last two books. By all accounts TWOW starts with a huge battle which should close some storylines and quickly accelerate others. Two books is plenty if he goes back to the writing style of the first three books. Supposing we already know all the main characters we can then compare the beginning of GOT to the end of ACOK. Look how many storylines began and ended in those two books... Martin could get three books but two would be both better for the reader and easier for him. Here's hoping he cops on..

Will it actually be two books though or two books split over two more books, making it potentially up to four books?

Liamalone · 07-11-2013 3:45pm

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Will it actually be two books though or two books split over two more books, making it potentially up to four books?

But that's just two big assed books though

Gbear · 07-11-2013 4:07pm

I don't necessarily disagree that it'll take 3 books. I just disagreed with some of the points you made as to why it would take 3 books. There's a hell of a lot to cover. It very much depends on what direction the series takes.

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Firstly, I presume that we all agree that most character's arcs are building towards a part in the battle with the Others?

I'm not convinced about that. A big climactic battle seems too cliché.

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I'm not talking about from a geographical POV, per se. Arya has only just been initiated into the group of faceless men. She's only just had her first kill and she's not very far along in that arc. How do you get her from assassin initiate, to being somehow involved in a war with The Others in two books that will be tying up loose ends for around 20 characters?

Same goes for Bran. He's only now starting to learn about his powers after 3 books of travelling, essentially. How do you get him from that point to major player (potentially) in the fight against (or with ) the Others?

We do know that Arya doesn't seem to be committing fully to the Faceless Men and despite being told constantly to leave her past behind, she's still focused on revenge for her family. I'd say she's learning the skills and will then bugger off at the most opportune moment.

With Bran physically in one place I suspect we're going to get a lot of historical exposition via the trees but given that he's already started learning how to warg properly I don't think his journey needs to take that long.
I think we're going to see what we need to see to progress the story (like explaining what happened at the Tower of Joy).

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

But the Others are THE enemy. Awakened after thousands of years without a sighting. Very few discernible ways of killing them. It's what the series is building up to. It's not 100,000 wildlings, it's the enemy that almost destroyed mankind before. I'd imagine it's not just going to be a battle at the Wall. All characters will have to be affected in some way by it, I'd imagine. Unless GRRM goes with a select few to defeat them and leaves everyone else oblivious or not bothered by it. Which would need to be done well to make sense. One way or the other, it can't just be ended quickly. Otherwise, what was everyone so worried about?

There's a constant trend of poorly understood prophecies, unreliable narrators and people generally applying simplistic thinking to complex problems in the world GRRM created.
I don't know what way the story is going to go but the least likely to me is that it's going to be a straightforward, good vs evil battle with Jon and Dany riding dragons to save the day.

I have a suspicion that the dragons will be every bit as dangerous as the others. Like one goes on a rampage and kills everyone in KL or something.

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I agree, get rid of all of those. You still have reams of chapters to write to finish off the remaining 15-20 POV characters' arcs along with all the seemingly important peripherals like Littlefinger, Rickon, Aegon, The Boltons, the Freys, the Martells, Varys, all the **** in Meereen etc.

He may only write 2 books, but I suspect that after TWOW is released or near completion, we may hear word that he requires 3.

You don't need to have the sorts of POVs that the main characters had before for every character though.

With Arianne travelling to meet up with Aegon, they'll need fewer chapters to reveal all (probably split between Arianne and Jon Connington) than if they were both separate.
The same applies in Mereen. Then you have other location-based POVs in KL, with Stannis and finally the main character POVs for Bran, Arya, Sansa, Dany and Jon if he's not dead (otherwise it'll someone else to cover the Wall).

You might have a few others sprinkled in, like Davos and Sam but I don't think either are particularly important. We don't really care for them in the same way we do for the Starks and Dany. They're primarily there for bits of exposition at this stage. The machinations of Wyman Manderly in the last book and those of the Citadel in the next.

I suspect the format, when there's overlaps in the locations of some characters, is going to be lots of POVs but shorter chapters.
It particularly suits battles because lots of short chapters creates a very frenetic feel to the whole thing - like the switching between Cat and Arya just before the Red Wedding to crank up the tension.

PhlegmyMoses · 07-11-2013 5:10pm

Gbear wrote: »

I'm not convinced about that. A big climactic battle seems too cliché.

My post takes this as a given and is entirely based around this premise. So you may as well disregard most of what I wrote if you don't agree with that. :P

What do you reckon he'll do, if he's not having the Others as the ultimate force to overcome and the final thrust of the story? Do you think that they're a red herring and the political machinations of the Game of Thrones is the real story? I doubt GRRM started the story with those intentions but I suppose it's plausible. It would leave a bit of a "What was the point of all of that foreshadowing?" taste afterwards, though.

Gbear · 07-11-2013 5:48pm

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

My post takes this as a given and is entirely based around this premise. So you may as well disregard most of what I wrote if you don't agree with that. :P

What do you reckon he'll do, if he's not having the Others as the ultimate force to overcome and the final thrust of the story? Do you think that they're a red herring and the political machinations of the Game of Thrones is the real story? I doubt GRRM started the story with those intentions but I suppose it's plausible. It would leave a bit of a "What was the point of all of that foreshadowing?" taste afterwards, though.

I really don't know to be honest.

It's just that for every bit of foreshadowing and bigging up the others there's a load of stuff about the dangers of prophecy and received wisdom being unreliable.

This happens in the real world too of course. Propaganda springs to mind.
It's a lot easier to get your soldiers to kill people if they consider them to be inhuman monsters. Now I'm not necessarily saying that the others are a misunderstood bunch of accountants and quantity surveyors but I'm not sure that they're pure evil either.

They may have desires and politics of their own - we just haven't heard about them because we don't know much about them. We have giants and children of the forest who've carved out their own niche at times. Why not ice spirits?

Or, from the other side, rather than being the evil servants of the "Great Other" or whatever, maybe they're more akin to a force of nature - uncaring, mindless and destructive but without malice.

What type of danger they are will tell whether they're actually the chief antagonists or merely, like the ****ty weather in the North, a sort of dangerous background against which the core of the story takes place.

hidinginthebush · 07-11-2013 5:51pm

Gbear wrote: »

We do know that Arya doesn't seem to be committing fully to the Faceless Men and despite being told constantly to leave her past behind, she's still focused on revenge for her family. I'd say she's learning the skills and will then bugger off at the most opportune moment.

If we don't get:

"Who are you?"
"Arya Stark of Winterfell, daughter to the murdered hand and sister to the murdered king of the north"

before the end of the series I will be very disappointed

PhlegmyMoses · 07-11-2013 6:20pm

Gbear wrote: »

I really don't know to be honest.

It's just that for every bit of foreshadowing and bigging up the others there's a load of stuff about the dangers of prophecy and received wisdom being unreliable.

This happens in the real world too of course. Propaganda springs to mind.
It's a lot easier to get your soldiers to kill people if they consider them to be inhuman monsters. Now I'm not necessarily saying that the others are a misunderstood bunch of accountants and quantity surveyors but I'm not sure that they're pure evil either.

They may have desires and politics of their own - we just haven't heard about them because we don't know much about them. We have giants and children of the forest who've carved out their own niche at times. Why not ice spirits?

Or, from the other side, rather than being the evil servants of the "Great Other" or whatever, maybe they're more akin to a force of nature - uncaring, mindless and destructive but without malice.

What type of danger they are will tell whether they're actually the chief antagonists or merely, like the ****ty weather in the North, a sort of dangerous background against which the core of the story takes place.

I agree that it may not be a straight up battle between good and evil. GRRM has very few purely good or purely bad characters so it'd make sense if they were a shade of a grey as well. But that still leaves us with the Others being the end-game or primary antagonists.

As for the last part, the fact that we have seen so little of them and they've been given next to no background, apart from a chapter here and there when we hear of their deeds or a POV character comes face to face with them, makes it plausible that they're a side-story next to the game of thrones. This is the only scenario in which I can see there not being a massive battle.

Interestingly, after what they did with the TV show, where they showed tens of thousands of them at the end of S02, it looks like they'll be the main antagonists in that version. It may not be the way in the books, but the TV show will almost certainly go down that route.

beardedmaster · 07-11-2013 6:26pm

hidinginthebush wrote: »

"Who are you?"
"Arya Stark of Winterfell, daughter to the murdered hand and sister to the murdered king of the north"

And I will have my vengeance.

Sleepy · 07-11-2013 6:33pm

hidinginthebush wrote: »

If we don't get:

"Who are you?"
"Arya Stark of Winterfell, daughter to the murdered hand and sister to the murdered king of the north"

before the end of the series I will be very disappointed

I think it's a given that Arya is going to have a scene that'll make readers fist pump the air roaring "YESS!!!"...

TimeToShine · 07-11-2013 6:50pm

Gbear wrote: »

You might have a few others sprinkled in, like Davos and Sam but I don't think either are particularly important. We don't really care for them in the same way we do for the Starks and Dany. They're primarily there for bits of exposition at this stage. The machinations of Wyman Manderly in the last book and those of the Citadel in the next.

This might surprise you but a lot of book readers definitely do care more for the supposedly minor characters than they do for the Starks or particularly Dany. I for one think care a lot more for the Davos/Skagos and Brienne/Jaime and even the Doran Martell and Victarion Greyjoy arcs than I do about Dany, Sansa or Arya. These characters don't get so much exposition for no reason, it's just the story had to start somewhere, and it did so with the Starks. This doesn't automatically make them the be all and end all of the series, it's just too black and white.

Gbear · 07-11-2013 7:50pm

TimeToShine wrote: »

This might surprise you but a lot of book readers definitely do care more for the supposedly minor characters than they do for the Starks or particularly Dany. I for one think care a lot more for the Davos/Skagos and Brienne/Jaime and even the Doran Martell and Victarion Greyjoy arcs than I do about Dany, Sansa or Arya. These characters don't get so much exposition for no reason, it's just the story had to start somewhere, and it did so with the Starks. This doesn't automatically make them the be all and end all of the series, it's just too black and white.

I phrased that poorly.

I meant that the stories of Dany and the Starks (and actually I did forget Jaime. He's in there too and Brienne is almost a facet of his personality) are the core of the book whereas I think the ancillary characters like Davos and Sam are more functional. They're there to do things to progress the story rather than the story being about them.

Does that make any sense?

Burt Macklin · 07-11-2013 8:06pm

Sleepy wrote: »

I think it's a given that Arya is going to have a scene that'll make readers fist pump the air roaring "YESS!!!"...

Edd, fetch me a block.

Gbear · 07-11-2013 8:15pm

NiallMH93 wrote: »

Edd, fetch me a block.

It was a bit disappointing that that was the only time we get to go "JON SNOW!! **** YEAH!!"

Hopefully he gets to kill one of the Boltons. That'd 70% make up for the Red Wedding.

Burt Macklin · 07-11-2013 8:32pm

Gbear wrote: »

It was a bit disappointing that that was the only time we get to go "JON SNOW!! **** YEAH!!"

Hopefully he gets to kill one of the Boltons. That'd 70% make up for the Red Wedding.

That and Frey pie!

Burt Macklin · 07-11-2013 8:36pm

FWIW I'm pretty sure Jon will warg into Ghost (a la Varamyr Sixskins), be revived by Mellisandre or else turn out to be Azor Ahai.
If it turns out he's dead and we never discover his true parentage it'll be the biggest let down ever

hidinginthebush · 08-11-2013 1:12am

NiallMH93 wrote: »

FWIW I'm pretty sure Jon will warg into Ghost (a la Varamyr Sixskins), be revived by Mellisandre or else turn out to be Azor Ahai.
If it turns out he's dead and we never discover his true parentage it'll be the biggest let down ever

From what I've been able to divulge, Dany is Azor, she certainly meets the most criteria anyway.

On the topic of Jon's parentage, I read that GRRM said the most accepted theory of his parents is correct, whether it comes out in the books will be another thing. I think only Howland Reed can confirm that, and there's been no sight of him yet. Probably the one character I want to see most too!

Burt Macklin · 08-11-2013 1:34am

hidinginthebush wrote: »

From what I've been able to divulge, Dany is Azor, she certainly meets the most criteria anyway.

On the topic of Jon's parentage, I read that GRRM said the most accepted theory of his parents is correct, whether it comes out in the books will be another thing. I think only Howland Reed can confirm that, and there's been no sight of him yet. Probably the one character I want to see most too!

Yeah, I think Daenerys is probably most likely, but there is some interesting stuff on this page which shows it might not be.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Azor_Ahai/Theories

Also, someone else pointed out on another board that Bran might see Ned confessing the truth about Jon's parentage to a heart tree in one of his greendreams, but I agree, I still want to see Howland Reed, since he's been built up for so long.

hidinginthebush · 08-11-2013 3:44am

NiallMH93 wrote: »

Yeah, I think Daenerys is probably most likely, but there is some interesting stuff on this page which shows it might not be.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Azor_Ahai/Theories

Also, someone else pointed out on another board that Bran might see Ned confessing the truth about Jon's parentage to a heart tree in one of his greendreams, but I agree, I still want to see Howland Reed, since he's been built up for so long.

I'd read that before alright. The arguments for Jon are strong, but rely a lot on dreams and metaphors, the only solid for his case is that he is probably descended from Aerys and Rhaella. Plus let's not forget that Melisandre has been wrong before (with her thinking Stannis was the one). I take a lot of what she does and says with a grain of salt anyway... She burns the old gods!

Dany, on the other hand, has the dragons from stone card. That seals it for me until something new pops up.

intellectual dosser · 08-11-2013 10:23am

If Dany is Azor Ahai could Jon be the Prince That Was Promised? If he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna then is he technically a prince?

08-11-2013 11:19am

Guys what if Ned warg'd in to a mouse when he was being beheaded and is living like Lemiwinks somewhere in King's landing?

Mr Freeze · 08-11-2013 11:43am

Deleted User wrote: »

Guys what if Ned warg'd in to a mouse when he was being beheaded and is living like Lemiwinks somewhere in King's landing?

Not a fan of the warging theory? Me neither.

08-11-2013 12:00pm

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Not a fan of the warging theory? Me neither.

Nope, don't like it at all. By the last book it could be like ****ing Narnia

Burt Macklin · 08-11-2013 12:12pm

Still, it must have some significance, otherwise why have a chapter devoted to it in the prologue to ADwD.

08-11-2013 12:31pm

NiallMH93 wrote: »

Still, it must have some significance, otherwise why have a chapter devoted to it in the prologue to ADwD.

O I'm sure it does I just hope it doesn't have a huge influence on all the other characters. I've accepted Jon's faith to be honest as much as I don't like it.

Burt Macklin · 08-11-2013 12:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

O I'm sure it does I just hope it doesn't have a huge influence on all the other characters. I've accepted Jon's faith to be honest as much as I don't like it.

You're a believer in the Old Gods too then?

Sorry, just had to...

TheIrishGrover · 08-11-2013 12:49pm

Well, so long as they do it right. I mean I don't want to see Jon suddenly warg back into another body and go "Phew, that was close. Now, where was I, Jon Snow of Winterfell? Oh yeah, getting away from this wall on a quest to find this dragon queen so I can ride a dragon with her and Tyrion, all holding hands. For after all I am part Targaryan. Mwhahaha, aren't I fab!"

It would be interesting if he came back without much previous knowledge of who he was initially. And that he would never gain much knowledge: Just vague impressions. (Think of an even more damaged early Reek). It's an opportunity to have your cake and eat it as an author: You can take this character and hold on to what you liked and tweak what you don't like. It might be a bit too fantasy-cliche though.

Obviously, because of the nine-skins Six Skins chapter, I don't think he's killed Jon off totally as a character. I think it would be a mistake both as a narrative and a business decision.

Of course 2 mins after WoW goes on sale the chapter titles will be on twitter: OMG Chapter 6: Ghost, Chapter 12 Lost Boy!!!!OMGOMGOMG

Hopefully the series will last up to this point 'cos I can't wait for non-reader reaction to that. (Also can't wait for the reactions to next season's events. I have two AVID Series/non-reader fan friends)

08-11-2013 1:01pm

Jon 100% isn't dead anyway GRRM let it slip about his arc not being finished when talking at one of those conference thingies.

TheIrishGrover · 08-11-2013 1:16pm

Actually, there's a thing: Let's assume that Jon's alive in some form or other. What do you think Martin will do with him? Will he stay at the wall or will Martin use this as an opportunity to let Jon leave as "His watch is ended". Initially I thought, ah, this was Martin's way of getting Jon on his path. That Martin was struggling with Jon at The Wall, that he was stagnating there. But, if he does leave the wall who will be the POV character at the Wall? There needs to be one there (It's been a while since I read ADwD and, from reading some posts here, I don't seem to be paying as close attention to the books as others)

Burt Macklin · 08-11-2013 1:23pm

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Actually, there's a thing: Let's assume that Jon's alive in some form or other. What do you think Martin will do with him? Will he stay at the wall or will Martin use this as an opportunity to let Jon leave as "His watch is ended". Initially I thought, ah, this was Martin's way of getting Jon on his path. That Martin was struggling with Jon at The Wall, that he was stagnating there. But, if he does leave the wall who will be the POV character at the Wall? There needs to be one there (It's been a while since I read ADwD and, from reading some posts here, I don't seem to be paying as close attention to the books as others)

I read somewhere that Martin confirmed there will be no new POV's in TWoW, so I'm not sure who the POV would be at the Wall if Jon leaves (assuming he survives of course). Although there's always Mellisandre, doesn't she have a POV in ADwD?

Mr Freeze · 08-11-2013 1:29pm

NiallMH93 wrote: »

I read somewhere that Martin confirmed there will be no new POV's in TWoW, so I'm not sure who the POV would be at the Wall if Jon leaves (assuming he survives of course). Although there's always Mellisandre, doesn't she have a POV in ADwD?

There is Mellisandre.

But it has also been stated that we are going to see further North than we have previously. So some POV character is going to go North, I am guessing Jon.

Stannis can handle Ramsay, well in terms of POV, as he has 2 in this camp now. So Jon will be staying at the wall or North of the wall I think.

14-11-2013 10:35am

Hurry up George for **** sake! Winter is coming

Mr Freeze · 14-11-2013 10:37am

Deleted User wrote: »

Hurry up George for **** sake! Winter is coming

2015 at the earliest.....

I better start a re-read I suppose.

14-11-2013 10:49am

Mr Freeze wrote: »

2015 at the earliest.....

I better start a re-read I suppose.

:( ah well

I'm in the middle of one at the moment. Currently on book 2 again, it's amazing the stuff you pick up on a second read. The Renly stuff is portrayed so much better in the books among other things I've noticed. For example how many troops he had at his disposal.

Sleepy · 14-11-2013 11:33am

KaG - have a think about reading AFFC and ADWD chronologically on this re-read if you haven't already tried it. Found it made for a more enjoyable read myself

Mr Freeze · 14-11-2013 11:38am

Sleepy wrote: »

KaG - have a think about reading AFFC and ADWD chronologically on this re-read if you haven't already tried it. Found it made for a more enjoyable read myself

Was it not difficult, keeping track and stuff?

Is there a list somewhere?

Sleepy · 14-11-2013 11:40am

Dug it out:

http://boiledleather.com/post/25902554148/a-new-reader-friendly-combined-reading-order-for-a

14-11-2013 12:05pm

Cheers will do! AFFC was hell on my first read!

Sleepy · 14-11-2013 1:19pm

Trust me, it's much better second time round. There's a lot of stuff there that you'll have missed on your first read.

hidinginthebush · 14-11-2013 2:37pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Dug it out:

http://boiledleather.com/post/25902554148/a-new-reader-friendly-combined-reading-order-for-a

Can't recommend this way of reading enough. The story flows so well when read like this. Bit of a pain in the way you need to constantly check the list between chapters to see when you've to switch books, but well worth the effort!

28-11-2013 6:17pm

http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html

Confirms to me 100% the Jon stuff

The Winds of Winter (Book 6 Discussion) **SPOILERS for all books & future books**

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The Winds of Winter (Book 6 Discussion) SPOILERS for all books & future books