Illegal Driver in club matchplay?

ForeRight · 07-07-2014 10:49am

I wouldn't have got another club member involved as it wouldn't be fair on them.

I would have took a pic of his bag and driver on the sly and shipped it out now.
He would be exposed as a liar and a cheat and should be expelled from the club.

Tiger Mcilroy · 07-07-2014 10:51am

That's pathetic for the man to blatantly lie about his driver..his rep will be in tatters regardless so his best defense was ignorance of the offense.

Golfnut77 · 07-07-2014 10:54am

John Divney wrote: »

But there is no logic to his claim if the member of staff verifies this. He went in saying he was accused of cheating over a conversation that would never have taken place , if as he claims it was only a headcover. You would have seen the driver and moved on.

Tell them to talk to the guy who was working, that should be more than enough, on the balance of probabilities that he is a liar.

I don't know what was said to the member of staff other than that I accused him of cheating, I don't think he showed him the driver. He's friendly with that member of staff too so I wouldn't expect to be backed up by him even if he knew.

John Divney · 07-07-2014 10:55am

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

That's pathetic for the man to blatantly lie about his driver..his rep will be in tatters regardless so his best defense was ignorance of the offense.

Problem is his rep will be fine as he wasn't DQ'd, had no integrity to DQ himself, and now has basically slandered the OP.

Unless the committee do something, which they seem to want no part of.

Golfnut77 · 07-07-2014 10:55am

Russman wrote: »

Purely if it was me, I'd be looking at another club for next year too.

Already looking, the only problem is there's at least one of him at every club in the country!

Ed Winchester · 07-07-2014 10:56am

This has turned into a mess. The guy is clearly an arsehole who has no regard for the OP and is just covering his own cheating ass by lying. Hard to see an positive outcome for the OP even though he's 100% in the right.

Wombatman · 07-07-2014 10:56am

Disgraceful behaviour. I would be confronting the guy ASAP. Would not accept the ruling without a massive brouhaha. Get him in in front of competition committee with you there also.

Surely people have played with him before and have seen the Cobra driver. He is no doubt attached to it and will be loath to give it up, so will probably play with it again.

Do you have his phone number?

big_drive · 07-07-2014 11:02am

Maybe another club member who has played with him recently will hear about this and have noted that he was using a cobra driver when playing with them. That wouldn't guarantee he was using it in this match but it's unlikely he would have changed it.

It's more his attitude and behaviour that would bug me, using the driver wouldn't overly upset me

Russman · 07-07-2014 11:08am

Wombatman wrote: »

Get him in in front of competition committee with you there also.

Definitely, I'd get the whole thing on record, the committee, to be fair to them, probably won't be able to rule in your favour, but I'd be so stubborn, I'd make sure the story gets out and force him to lie to the whole committee. If winning a p0xy internal club match means that much to him, f--k him !

Golfnut77 wrote: »

Already looking, the only problem is there's at least one of him at every club in the country!

I hear ya, but at the same time I'd like to think not (naively !). Or at least that you wouldn't get drawn against them in a match !

Paddy Constable · 07-07-2014 11:08am

Have sympathy for the OP..but there is no way he can win on this one !

Speaking personally I don't believe that the driver in question would makedly improve the performance of the avg handicap golfer.

The guy in question seems a right awquard customer and there is no doubt that he is now telling outright lies.

Question is ..is all the hassle the OP is going through worth winning a round in a club matchplay ?

Ed Winchester · 07-07-2014 11:10am

Paddy Constable wrote: »

Have sympathy for the OP..but there is no way he can win on this one !

Speaking personally I don't believe that the driver in question would makedly improve the performance of the avg handicap golfer.

The guy in question seems a right awquard customer and there is no doubt that he is now telling outright lies.

Question is ..is all the hassle the OP is going through worth winning a round in a club matchplay ?

If he lets it go now it will reflect badly on the OP in the eyes of the membership.

DuckSlice · 07-07-2014 11:12am

Golfnut77 wrote: »

Competition secretary got back to me this morning, he said it would indeed constitute disqualification, however he contacted my opponent and he has denied using the driver saying he had a Cobra headcover on a Titleist driver and the burden of proof is on me to show otherwise.

Astonished at his complete lack of integrity,from what could have been dismissed as just not knowing the rules, learning from it and moving on he has now crossed the line to outright lying and cheating. Obviously there's no way that I can prove that he used the driver, I held it in my hands and know for a fact it was the non conforming Cobra so essentially it's now my word against his and the Comp secretary said he has no option but to let the result stand.

Seen that coming to be honest!

ForeRight · 07-07-2014 11:13am

Paddy Constable wrote: »

Have sympathy for the OP..but there is no way he can win on this one !

Speaking personally I don't believe that the driver in question would makedly improve the performance of the avg handicap golfer.

The guy in question seems a right awquard customer and there is no doubt that he is now telling outright lies.

Question is ..is all the hassle the OP is going through worth winning a round in a club matchplay ?

I think the behaviour of the lying cheat would make it worth while to be honest.
If
I'd nearly bet that this guy already has a reputation of being an arsehole in the club already. How he reacted to the news from OP in the middle of their round isn't normal behaviour IMO and now he slanders OP on top of it.

If someone gave me that news in a match my reaction would be "ok so, we will finish the game out and get a ruling at the end"

Like any query in a match really. His reaction of going nuts and trying to turn the tables on OP saying he was being called a cheat just proves that this guy knew too well he was in the wrong before a ball was hit!
He deserves to be made a show of in front of the whole club.

Let him be the one who ends up leaving the club and not the OP.

scotchy · 07-07-2014 11:15am

Been following this thread with interest.

I’m a pay and play golfer, don’t play in competitions etc.

Anyway, I have one of these clubs at home, and while getting it re-gripped in McGurks two years ago I was told it was non-conforming (of course not till after they’d re gripped it and charged me :rolleyes:).

I haven’t used it since.

I find it hard to believe that a club member and regular competition player would not know that he is using a non-conforming club.

.

Russman · 07-07-2014 11:22am

On reflection, if he manages to get it to a committee hearing, he may (a small may) get some joy in terms of vindication, depending on the make up of the committee - are they his friends. Might there be a committee member who wants to dig a little at this and get to the bottom of it ?

If the staff member in the shop at least acknowledges that there was a dispute and both players came in to find the pro, yer man's argument of having a titleist driver under the headcover simply doesn't stand up - why, if that was the case, would he not just say "I'm not even using a Cobra driver, here, look, its a Titleist ?"

Op, I hate to say it and don't want to be overly dramatic as I'm totally on your side, but you're in all likelihood finished with that club. Damned if you do and damned if you don't at this stage. If you push it, chances are the finding will be along the lines of "its one person's word against another's, we can't make a ruling". If you don't push it, yer man could well be telling people "......do you know what Joe tried to do when I beat him in the matchplay ?"

He's not on the Committee himself is he ? That would really top it off !
Hard to believe that he's brazen enough to basically say "prove it" without thinking his strategy/defence, and the holes in them, through .

Golfnut77 · 07-07-2014 11:50am

Russman wrote: »

On reflection, if he manages to get it to a committee hearing, he may (a small may) get some joy in terms of vindication, depending on the make up of the committee - are they his friends. Might there be a committee member who wants to dig a little at this and get to the bottom of it ?

If the staff member in the shop at least acknowledges that there was a dispute and both players came in to find the pro, yer man's argument of having a titleist driver under the headcover simply doesn't stand up - why, if that was the case, would he not just say "I'm not even using a Cobra driver, here, look, its a Titleist ?"

Op, I hate to say it and don't want to be overly dramatic as I'm totally on your side, but you're in all likelihood finished with that club. Damned if you do and damned if you don't at this stage. If you push it, chances are the finding will be along the lines of "its one person's word against another's, we can't make a ruling". If you don't push it, yer man could well be telling people "......do you know what Joe tried to do when I beat him in the matchplay ?"

He's not on the Committee himself is he ? That would really top it off !
Hard to believe that he's brazen enough to basically say "prove it" without thinking his strategy/defence, and the holes in them, through .

I don't think Cobra was even mentioned to the staff member, I think he just said I accused him of using a non conforming driver.

He's not on the Committee but he would play with committee members regularly and be a part of that circle.

Initially I thought he was going to say fair enough we'll check after the round, then after his outburst and behaviour after the match I thought he'll calm down when he gets home and probably check online see I was right and apologise....I didn't see this coming at all.

moycullen14 · 07-07-2014 11:51am

Jeez, I'm breaking out in a sweat reading this.

I pulled a guy up on a rule a few years ago in a scratch cup. He claimed ball was lost in GUR, I claimed no evidence. He got thick, I got thick. Thankfully, ball was found (well away from GUR, of course) and nothing more was said or done. I've often thought that it could have got very messy - your word/my word sort of thing.

Since then I'd be very slow to pull someone up on infringements - especially if there is a hint of deliberate cheating - which there seems to have been in the OPs case.

The problem is that if the 'cheat' is caught, they are like a cornered rat and will fight back. The guy in the OP felt that he was damned anyway because if it got around the club that we was using a non conforming driver, no-one would believe that it was a genuine error. Better for him to go on the offensive, hence the viciousness totally out of proportion to the claim.

The other reason not to get involved is that there is very little chance of 'due process' being followed if it gets to a hearing. Friendships, laziness, vendettas, 'anything for a quiet life' all come in to play and the chances of the 'right' conclusions being drawn are remote.

I know in our club the outcome of a hearing would depend as much on the relative popularity of the protagonists as the rights & wrongs of the situation.

Does the OP now wish he had said nothing? Awful situation to be in - especially as you have no proof of an offence.

If there is a lesson to be learned, it's that you have to make sure you have a watertight case before you even think of implying someone is cheating .. and even then I'd think twice about it.

Golfnut77 · 07-07-2014 11:52am

Kace wrote: »

Some additional opinions on a similar situation with the exact same driver here -golfwrx.com/forums/topic/728707-opponent-using-non-conforming-driver/

Very similar, he probably dealt with it better than I in leaving it until after the round though.

Golfnut77 · 07-07-2014 11:59am

moycullen14 wrote: »

Does the OP now wish he had said nothing? Awful situation to be in - especially as you have no proof of an offence.

No I'm glad I did, even if he's going to lie his way out of it he won't be using that club again. I never accused him of cheating, I merely pointed out that his club was non conforming and so against the rules, he was the only one using the word 'cheat'. If he wants to spread that to the club and people ostracize me for it then I'd happily walk out of the club.

Montgolfier · 07-07-2014 12:04pm

I would respond to the committees decision. Explain that you had the driver in your hand and you can tell the difference between the two.
Tell them that if you don't get satisfaction you will report this to the GUI.
I would also name and shame this liar, who probably has connections on the committee.
If he had a titlest driver he could have vindicated himself in the pro shop? He didn't, he knew the accusation but chose not to prove it. Instead of or as well as roaring and shouting.

Put that in your response.

tayto lover · 07-07-2014 12:06pm

Ed Winchester wrote: »

If he lets it go now it will reflect badly on the OP in the eyes of the membership.

As the other guy was acknowledged the winner of the match and nothing done about the cheaingt as there is no proof, the OP is a big loser as the cheat will spread the word and ruin his reputation.

charlieIRL · 07-07-2014 12:07pm

Montgolfier wrote: »

I would also name and shame this liar, who probably has connections on the committee.

I'd rather the OP didn't until the dispute with the club is resolved.

tayto lover · 07-07-2014 12:11pm

The OP should have accompanied the cheat to the Pro-shop and had the staff member look at the club. This would have been the proof needed.
The fact that he didn't do that lost him the proof needed.

cgh · 07-07-2014 12:29pm

the guy that cheated,
Im sure he'll be playing his titleist driver for the next while with the cobra head,

just to prove to all he plays golf with a conforming driver.

Dr_Colossus · 07-07-2014 12:48pm

Wow, quite stunned at his response and denial using the club despite you having it in your hands. He's had time to reflect and redeem himself but instead crossed a very distinctive line. In addition to the verbal abuse you suffered on the course and the now blatant slander and tarnishing of your name you now can't let this go.

Russman wrote: »

Purely if it was me, I'd be looking at another club for next year too.

Golfnut77 wrote: »

Already looking, the only problem is there's at least one of him at every club in the country!

I also don't think this is a reasonable response and far too hasty. You're a member of the club as it obviously suits you and your needs so why should you have to inconvenience yourself to give him free reign.

The committee are in an awkward situation now also as I don't think they could disqualify him without notifying him of the fact and now he's turned the tables calling you a liar which is a serious acquisition. Leaving the club could be deemed as admitting defeat in the eyes of the general membership who will hear all sorts of stories and rumors (mostly spread by the opponent). If the committee don't attempt to investigate and resolve the situation and you ultimately decide to leave the club then at least make sure everyone knows the facts and let them make their own conclusion regarding your matchplay component.

Dbu · 07-07-2014 12:51pm

Its really time to play hard ball here,
from reading your posts, it just seems the club in question just want this to 'go away'
I would write to the management, the various committees, the president and the captain and say you will name the club publicily unless the organise a meeting between all of the above and you and the other guy.

Don't see why you have to leave the club and not the 'cheat'

GreeBo · 07-07-2014 12:59pm

Dbu wrote: »

Its really time to play hard ball here,
from reading your posts, it just seems the club in question just want this to 'go away'
I would write to the management, the various committees, the president and the captain and say you will name the club publicily unless the organise a meeting between all of the above and you and the other guy.

Don't see why you have to leave the club and not the 'cheat'

The OP has no proof and would be foolish to start naming people/clubs in any public fora.

ozymandias10 · 07-07-2014 1:01pm

GreeBo wrote: »

The OP has no proof and would be foolish to start naming people/clubs in any public fora.

I agree here..also he has made assumptions about the other individual in the pro shop on what he would or wouldn't have done. This sort of hearsay will not assist or help OPs in resolving this issue with the committee.

Dbu · 07-07-2014 1:03pm

GreeBo wrote: »

The OP has no proof and would be foolish to start naming people/clubs in any public fora.

not on this, or any forum, local paper near the course would love this sort of stuff..
Yes he has proof, he held it in his hand.
Let the onus be on the other guy to prove he used a Titleist.

SaveOurLyric · 07-07-2014 1:04pm

Worth a read:

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/728707-opponent-using-non-conforming-driver/

SaveOurLyric · 07-07-2014 1:06pm

Dbu wrote: »

Yes he has proof, he held it in his hand.

Not the case. He had proof. Now he doesnt.
Take care of slander OP.

SaveOurLyric · 07-07-2014 1:09pm

From R&A supplementary paper A,
1.Advice to Rules Officials Concerning Queries on the Conformity of Clubs at Competitions

"C. Queries Arising During Match Play Competition

1. During a match play event the above procedure may need to be modified.

2. If the query arises between rounds, then it would be too late for a defeated opponent of the player with a suspect club to make a claim, but a query from him would be grounds for checking the club before the player starts his next round.

3. The procedure would be to consult with the player, opponent or third party and obtain all available information before making a determination. Whilst the main procedures would be the same as for stroke play competitions (see A3 – A6 above), there may be more urgency in match play as it would be desirable to know whether the club is non-conforming before the player starts his next round, which might be the same day.

4. If a formal ruling is obtained or a Duration of Round Answer reached, the player should be told as soon as possible. If the decision is that the club does not conform, the official would warn the player that if he carries the club in the next round he would be subject to penalty under Rule 4-1a.

5. If a player makes a claim during a match that his opponent is carrying a non-conforming club, the Official will have to make a ruling under even greater time constraints. Ideally, a ruling should be made before the match is finished. In that event, if there is no clear evidence that the club does not conform, the Official should almost always err towards ruling the club to conform. However, such a ruling would be considered to be a Duration of Round Answer and a more formal decision should be made prior to the next round.

6. Thereafter, if the opponent wins, the procedure is the same as for a query arising between rounds (see C3 and C4 above).

D. Queries Arising After Competition Closed

Once a competition has closed, there is plenty of time to contact The R&A to find out whether the club conforms or not and/or to submit the club. If it turns out that the club is non-conforming, the decision whether to disqualify the player or not depends on whether he knew the club was non-conforming (see Rule 34-1). This is a question of fact, but in determining the facts, the Committee may wish to consider other evidence as well as the player’s own statement."

cgh · 07-07-2014 1:12pm

the problem here is the Non Conforming club wont be in the bag for a long time. the head cover will but not the club. this will turn into a he said this and he said that.
the proof is the non conforming club. but will the guy ever use it again.

snaphook · 07-07-2014 1:21pm

Keep an eye out on adverts.ie for a non-conforming Cobra Driver soon

Innish_Rebel · 07-07-2014 1:26pm

snaphook wrote: »

Keep an eye out on adverts.ie for a non-conforming Cobra Driver soon

no cover included though - needed to keep Titleist driver warm...

Larry Wildman · 07-07-2014 1:35pm

There are elements to this that don't stack up.

- If the driver was indeed a Titleist with a Cobra headcover, why didn't the guy simply point that out when challenged?

- Some other member is bound to know that he uses a Cobra driver.

The OP has no choice but to escalate this and make a formal complaint to the committee. Otherwise, he looks foolish. He must go for this guy all guns blazing.

GetInTheHole! · 07-07-2014 1:42pm

OP - in my opinion; you should definitely continue with this to the committee.

You said yourself that the guy in question regularly plays with committee members so if that's the case - then surely they would know that he plays with a Cobra driver (even if they dont know it's non-conforming).

I don't have any real interest in equipment other than my own but I do know what drivers / irons etc my regular playing partners use. Sure it would even be a topic of conversation if someone "splashed out" on something new.

Even if just to protect your own integrity - I would follow through regardless of what the anticipated outcome is.

GreeBo · 07-07-2014 1:48pm

Dbu wrote: »

not on this, or any forum, local paper near the course would love this sort of stuff..
Yes he has proof, he held it in his hand.
Let the onus be on the other guy to prove he used a Titleist.

Thats not proof to anyone but himself.
The opponent also has proof, he as a Titleist in his hand these days.

Neither of them can prove anything now.
A third party might be able to lend credence to the OP's claim, but thats it.

Innish_Rebel · 07-07-2014 1:49pm

Golfnut77 wrote: »

Competition secretary got back to me this morning, he said it would indeed constitute disqualification, however he contacted my opponent and he has denied using the driver saying he had a Cobra headcover on a Titleist driver and the burden of proof is on me to show otherwise.

Astonished at his complete lack of integrity,from what could have been dismissed as just not knowing the rules, learning from it and moving on he has now crossed the line to outright lying and cheating. Obviously there's no way that I can prove that he used the driver, I held it in my hands and know for a fact it was the non conforming Cobra so essentially it's now my word against his and the Comp secretary said he has no option but to let the result stand.

His word against yours - fair enough that is what it is but you should stand by your word. Nothing to do with getting through to the next round or anything like that. This guy knew he was using an illegal club, for sure other playing partners know this...

I would follow up on it but also seeing as you are considering going elsewhere, I would be making that point. That you would find it hard to stomach being a member of a club that seems to brush this under the carpet...

As above I would press on irrespective of the outcome. I would expect you would not be successful but the point would have been made...

John Divney · 07-07-2014 1:54pm

Yeah, the Op must at least clear his name with the committee as he seems more on the outside than this chap, who if he went off on one when a rule was mentioned, will shout the loudest around the members and the Op will end up looking the arsehole.

This needs to be made formal unfortuneatly. It isn't about proving he had it in hise hands, it's about giving the version of events that points to his lie being improbable.

Which is far worse now for this idiot who has a total lack of integrity.

redhill · 07-07-2014 2:08pm

The way this has turned round, i would also offer to caddy for his opponent in the next round, just to stuff it up him if nothing gets sorted !

Ken. · 07-07-2014 2:10pm

Watch Murphy's law come in to play now as the OP is drawn against this guy in every competition from now till doomsday.

cgh · 07-07-2014 2:20pm

one of the bigger problems highlighted here is the fact that there are many non conforming clubs.
how many times have you had your bag checked or indeed checked someone elses.
I've played a few interclub comps and never once had the clubs checked or counted.

blackwhite · 07-07-2014 2:37pm

OP, don't drop this - if you do at this point, it will be seen as you having tried to pull a fast one.

As others have said, make sure that it is well known with all of the officers in the club that you aren't letting this die.

One thing I would suggest, you should state that if/when your opponent is DQ'd you will be giving a walkover to whomever you are drawn against in the next round. Make it clear that you aren't trying to win on a technicality, but are merely trying to prevent cheating.

big_drive · 07-07-2014 2:49pm

blackwhite wrote: »

One thing I would suggest, you should state that if/when your opponent is DQ'd you will be giving a walkover to whomever you are drawn against in the next round. Make it clear that you aren't trying to win on a technicality, but are merely trying to prevent cheating.

I think this is a good idea. Then it shows that the OP is not in it just for the win but is clearly after fairplay

Tiger Mcilroy · 07-07-2014 2:53pm

big_drive wrote: »

I think this is a good idea. Then it shows that the OP is not in it just for the win but is clearly after fairplay

Why? the OP has done nothing wrong and would be perfectly entitled to play in the matchplay.

blackwhite · 07-07-2014 2:59pm

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

Why? the OP has done nothing wrong and would be perfectly entitled to play in the matchplay.

I fully agree that he is entitled to progress - but in terms of protecting his own reputation within the club it would demonstrate that he isn't trying to "pull a stroke" to progress.

Given the way his opponent has responded, the "PR war" is more important at this stage!

big_drive · 07-07-2014 3:01pm

Because at this stage i think its about more than the matchplay competition. Its about exposing the opponent for the type of person he is. By showing he's not doing this just to get into next round of a matchplay the OP will gain support from those in the club who may think he's only doing it because he was beaten

Tiger Mcilroy · 07-07-2014 3:08pm

big_drive wrote: »

Because at this stage i think its about more than the matchplay competition. Its about exposing the opponent for the type of person he is. By showing he's not doing this just to get into next round of a matchplay the OP will gain support from those in the club who may think he's only doing it because he was beaten

The OP has exposed this guy for what he is already, he has nothing to prove to anybody.

I understand the point about reputations etc and can see the perspective of ensuring that the op gets his point over that it wasnt about sandbagging a victory.

Personally i could give a toot about clubhouse gossips and they typically move on quick when somebody has a decent score on captains day and it wouldnt be hard to put them in their place with the facts of the matter.

TheDoc · 07-07-2014 3:39pm

I'm one of those that tends to let things like this slide, but mention it either when I notice it, or afterwards. It's one of those things though thats different between players.

I still see non conforming drivers pretty frequently, guys who don't buy new kit often and to be honest wouldn't probably have a breeze about this change, or any rule that comes in like this. I remember our club wasn't overly informative about it.

In my metropolitan match last year I played two games away. I won my first with a stomp and lost my second one narrowly. Both times the players had illegal drivers. After the first game when we shook hands and were walking back to the club I said it to him. OUtlined I spotted it before we tee'd off but amn't mad on that sort of stuff. But to be careful as some people might pull him up on it. He was genuinelly suprised and didn't know, went into the pro shop and the pro had to google online to check and it was infact illegal.

Second time went more or less the same. I phrased it that I'd no personal issue with it, but someone more finicky might pull him up and try claim the win over him. He was pretty thankful for me pointing it out. He was an older gentleman and most of his equipment was old enough. I was outhitting him by a solid 80-100 yards, so it had zero impact on the game, so I was definitly not going to try claim a win.

The flipside is that I've been called up by three people in matchplay. I use a Titleist 910D, it was developed AFTER the ban. So how anyone could implicate I had an illegal driver is beyond me, but it very much seemed to be lads clutching at straws to claim a match.

A separate issue is how the other player responded, there is just no need for it on a golf course. I've had one or two incidents like this, and its shockingly awkward. If it was on the street I'd punch the head of the individual, but when it happened to me it was normally in a GUI comp where I'm representing the club, and that sort of stuff travels around fast so wouldnt want to causing gossip and grief.

I think the lesson here, is that if you would potentially call someone up on a non conforming driver, to check before the round starts, and make them aware if they have one. Atleast in this way they can remove it from their bag and play the match.

Illegal Driver in club matchplay?

Comments