Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

AngryLips · 12-10-2015 9:32pm

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

So it seems all are in agreement, that the benefit of randomization was a way to lock people out of using the system gratis. It had an undesirable knock-on effect of causing slower uptake.

No, the reason they are randomised is due to data protection concerns raised by the sequential coding. Eircode is randomised for the same reason there are strict rules around how companies make use of PPS numbers. It's the same arguments that crop up against national identity cards.

TheChizler · 12-10-2015 9:56pm

AngryLips wrote: »

No, the reason they are randomised is due to data protection concerns raised by the sequential coding. Eircode is randomised for the same reason there are strict rules around how companies make use of PPS numbers. It's the same arguments that crop up against national identity cards.

What data protection concerns?

12-10-2015 10:14pm

TheChizler wrote: »

What data protection concerns?

Probably trying to prevent the "postcode" lottery that sometimes happens in the UK, where a whole subset of postcodes are labelled and a householder in that area is (usually) tarred with the same brush as the knacker family who have made too many insurance claims. A relative of mine who lived on a small estate that shared the same postcode prefix as the neighbouring council estate and it meant that their house insurance was higher than average. They got the post office to issue a new sub code for the estate and the cost of the insurance dropped.

seanaway · 12-10-2015 10:28pm

I had to look up the TV licence section's eircode to send them my direct debit info. Put my eircode on the form. They sent it back for correction -MINUS my eircode.....
Why bother...???

TheChizler · 12-10-2015 10:30pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Probably trying to prevent the "postcode" lottery that sometimes happens in the UK, where a whole subset of postcodes are labelled and a householder in that area is (usually) tarred with the same brush as the knacker family who have made too many insurance claims. A relative of mine who lived on a small estate that shared the same postcode prefix as the neighbouring council estate and it meant that their house insurance was higher than average. They got the post office to issue a new sub code for the estate and the cost of the insurance dropped.

Maybe that was a factor overall, but how is that data protection?

markpb · 12-10-2015 10:43pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Maybe that was a factor overall, but how is that data protection?

The Journal

The ODPC argues that a public database linking a code to a single unit residential address “could be considered as being personal data of the occupants of that dwelling”.
“In the Irish context, a person’s home address is an important part of their identity and is the second most important piece of personal information to verify a person’s identity,” the report adds.
Furthermore, Data Protection Commissioner Billy Hawkes says that, through the use of modern technology, a public postcode database can be “easily assimilated into any sort of electronic device” and “have the potential for the ready identification of sensitive information about individuals”.

TheChizler · 12-10-2015 11:00pm

markpb wrote: »

The Journal

Yes, but how does making them non-sequential avoid data protection issues? There's still a one to one mapping between eircode and address.

anothernight · 13-10-2015 12:30am

Deleted User wrote: »

Probably trying to prevent the "postcode" lottery that sometimes happens in the UK, where a whole subset of postcodes are labelled and a householder in that area is (usually) tarred with the same brush as the knacker family who have made too many insurance claims. A relative of mine who lived on a small estate that shared the same postcode prefix as the neighbouring council estate and it meant that their house insurance was higher than average. They got the post office to issue a new sub code for the estate and the cost of the insurance dropped.

Surely this is done in Ireland already, without postcodes and all? Our insurance increased by a lot a few years ago, when some places flooded. That our house is on a slope and not near one of the places that flooded didn't matter. As far as the insurance company was concerned, we were high risk anyway because we were technically in the same town as where it happened.

Same thing also happens with car insurance premiums and what insurers perceive to be the risk of theft in an area. No postcode required, as they have your address anyway.

13-10-2015 6:12am

anothernight wrote: »

Surely this is done in Ireland already, without postcodes and all? Our insurance increased by a lot a few years ago, when some places flooded. That our house is on a slope and not near one of the places that flooded didn't matter. As far as the insurance company was concerned, we were high risk anyway because we were technically in the same town as where it happened.

Same thing also happens with car insurance premiums and what insurers perceive to be the risk of theft in an area. No postcode required, as they have your address anyway.

Now that you have a postcode, you can challenge the insurance company with location on a map!

plodder · 13-10-2015 9:12am

anothernight wrote: »

Surely this is done in Ireland already, without postcodes and all? Our insurance increased by a lot a few years ago, when some places flooded. That our house is on a slope and not near one of the places that flooded didn't matter. As far as the insurance company was concerned, we were high risk anyway because we were technically in the same town as where it happened.

Same thing also happens with car insurance premiums and what insurers perceive to be the risk of theft in an area. No postcode required, as they have your address anyway.

Of course it is. It was one of the arguments that were made after the fact, against using a hierarchical code with small areas. It's nonsense, because no company is forced to use the information in the structure, as clearly it isn't useful for all purposes (eg flood risk is clearly very different to crime risk). In those cases, you do what Eircode forces you to do now - ie. build up your own mapping/databases from other sources. And the biggest irony is that they added small area codes to their database anyway, and have been pushing its use, but of course you have to pay for the database. So, it's conceivable that insurance companies will end up using small area codes for crime risk in particular, but you just won't know about it, and ignorance is bliss

hans aus dtschl · 13-10-2015 9:58am

So we're back to seeing the "non-sequential" or "ungrouped" nature of the coding as useful only for monetizing the system?

plodder · 13-10-2015 11:38am

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

So we're back to seeing the "non-sequential" or "ungrouped" nature of the coding as useful only for monetizing the system?

Perhaps not the only reason, but the principal one.

TheChizler · 13-10-2015 1:45pm

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

So we're back to seeing the "non-sequential" or "ungrouped" nature of the coding as useful only for monetizing the system?

Making sure no properties in the same area have similar and easy to mix-up codes is a huge benefit.

anothernight · 13-10-2015 9:03pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Now that you have a postcode, you can challenge the insurance company with location on a map!

What difference would that make? They already knew where I lived, by virtue of having my full address.

I must say, I've lived in a few different countries but the most useful postcode system I've ever used, by far, is the one we have in the UK. Eircode was supposed to be better because it pinpoints specific houses, but over here we can do the exact same thing by putting the house number in front of the postcode anyway. In practical terms, there's zero difference between one and the other as far as being able to point to a specific building. A letter sent to [house number][postcode], will arrive just as easily as one with the full address, making Eircode's supposed superiority... well, meaningless.

Sam Russell · 13-10-2015 9:15pm

Particularly if An Post does not use Eircode.

13-10-2015 9:30pm

anothernight wrote: »

What difference would that make? They already knew where I lived, by virtue of having my full address.

I must say, I've lived in a few different countries but the most useful postcode system I've ever used, by far, is the one we have in the UK. Eircode was supposed to be better because it pinpoints specific houses, but over here we can do the exact same thing by putting the house number in front of the postcode anyway. In practical terms, there's zero difference between one and the other as far as being able to point to a specific building. A letter sent to [house number][postcode], will arrive just as easily as one with the full address, making Eircode's supposed superiority... well, meaningless.

It makes a big difference because there is a map that backs up the assertion that you're not on the flood plain. All you need is the flood map of the area and the eircode map with your house marked on it. Any insurance company would have to be really as thick as a brick to assess you as at risk of flooding when you can prove that you're not in the flood risk area.

anothernight · 13-10-2015 9:46pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It makes a big difference because there is a map that backs up the assertion that you're not on the flood plain. All you need is the flood map of the area and the eircode map with your house marked on it. Any insurance company would have to be really as thick as a brick to assess you as at risk of flooding when you can prove that you're not in the flood risk area.

My address in Ireland is unique, with its house number, street name and town name. Having my full address in Ireland would give them the exact location of the house. No difference there.

EDIT: I guess I should mention that this happened a few years ago. The insurance company refused to reduce the premium. It's ok though; karma's a bitch and the insurance company is no more.

13-10-2015 9:54pm

anothernight wrote: »

My address in Ireland is unique, with its house number, street name and town name. Having my full address in Ireland would give them the exact location of the house. No difference there.

EDIT: I guess I should mention that this happened a few years ago. The insurance company refused to reduce the premium. It's ok though; karma's a bitch and the insurance company is no more.

OK nothing to do with postcodes so!

anothernight · 13-10-2015 10:01pm

Deleted User wrote: »

OK nothing to do with postcodes so!

My point exactly. My initial assertion was that insurance companies already allocate risk based on area, regardless of whether postcodes are in use or not. Your mates were lucky that their insurance companies listened to their complaints, but the companies in question had no obligation to reduce the cost of their insurance premiums. Postcodes or not.

plodder · 14-10-2015 3:55am

TheChizler wrote: »

Making sure no properties in the same area have similar and easy to mix-up codes is a huge benefit.

It's a benefit, but I wouldn't say it's a huge one. In the vast majority of cases, name plus address is already unique. So, you have a way of verifying codes there.

hans aus dtschl · 14-10-2015 9:13am

plodder wrote: »

It's a benefit, but I wouldn't say it's a huge one. In the vast majority of cases, name plus address is already unique. So, you have a way of verifying codes there.

Yep I was going to say similar. In rural areas people live in the same townland with similar names, but the existing post system worked through it. I agree it's an efficient design, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a huge benefit.

TheChizler · 14-10-2015 10:53am

plodder wrote: »

It's a benefit, but I wouldn't say it's a huge one. In the vast majority of cases, name plus address is already unique. So, you have a way of verifying codes there.

The benefit comes in when people make mistakes in either the address or the code, say if you sent a parcel to 12 Jump Street but you meant 21 Jump Street, with an Eircode of P12 DP73, the system could detect that first there must be a mistake, as the code wouldn't match the address, and secondly correct it, as it would know that there isn't an address with a that Eircode in the Jump Street area.

The non sequential aspect comes in if you make a mistake in the Eircode, and/or the address has a mistake/is missing information/is non unique. Say if you wrote P12 DP37 (a common mistake) It could detect that there is only one address in the Jump Street area that has an Eircode similar to the one written (there are a number of common mistakes people make when transcribing character sequences, Eircode takes account of these) and correct it and the address accordingly. Try doing that with a sequential code.

plodder · 14-10-2015 12:39pm

TheChizler wrote: »

The benefit comes in when people make mistakes in either the address or the code, say if you sent a parcel to 12 Jump Street but you meant 21 Jump Street, with an Eircode of P12 DP73, the system could detect that first there must be a mistake, as the code wouldn't match the address, and secondly correct it, as it would know that there isn't an address with a that Eircode in the Jump Street area.

Say the addresses are:

12 Jump St. (P12 DP65)
21 Jump St. (P12 DP73)

If you typed 21 instead of 12 then the mistake would be detected unless you also typed the wrong Eircode, and not just any wrong Eircode, but the correct one for 21. How likely is that?

TheChizler · 14-10-2015 2:34pm

plodder wrote: »

Say the addresses are:

12 Jump St. (P12 DP65)
21 Jump St. (P12 DP73)

If you typed 21 instead of 12 then the mistake would be detected unless you also typed the wrong Eircode, and not just any wrong Eircode, but the correct one for 21. How likely is that?

Very unlikely [that you would accidentally type in a valid Eircode from the same area], because it's designed so that a valid similar Eircode will not be in the same area. I'm not sure a complete substitution of two digits is within the set of common mistakes that has been accounted for, but that's the principle behind it.

Edit: unless in your example the two addresses exist in a sequential Eircode system? In that case of the house numbers being separated by 9 numbers, and codes by 8, you wouldn't be able to correct it with any degree of certainty even if you were aware that an error had been made.

plodder · 14-10-2015 3:20pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Very unlikely [that you would accidentally type in a valid Eircode from the same area], because it's designed so that a valid similar Eircode will not be in the same area. I'm not sure a complete substitution of two digits is within the set of common mistakes that has been accounted for, but that's the principle behind it.

Edit: unless in your example the two addresses exist in a sequential Eircode system? In that case of the house numbers being separated by 9 numbers, and codes by 8, you wouldn't be able to correct it with any degree of certainty even if you were aware that an error had been made.

Yes, I was talking about a sequential system. I really don't see any great need for error correction. Detection is perfectly adequate. I can't think of any other ID (such as PPS number, utility account numbers etc) that have this level of error correction built in.

Normally, these codes get entered in online web pages. If the address and code don't match, you just display an error to the user, and give them the chance to re-enter it. No big deal.

MBSnr · 14-10-2015 4:10pm

plodder wrote: »

Normally, these codes get entered in online web pages. If the address and code don't match, you just display an error to the user, and give them the chance to re-enter it. No big deal.

Actually something springs to mind here. A lot of people are using their correct geographical address but not perhaps the address that is preferred/used by An Post and listed in the GeoDirectory. If on line retailers start doing look ups on Eircodes and then auto filling the address out and/or the address is filled in by the customer but the Eircode says it is wrong (less likely).

That'll cause issues.

Of course it does mean that they'll have to start being used and checked by retailers, insurance companies etc and I'm not seeing that yet...

a65b2cd · 14-10-2015 10:09pm

MBSnr wrote: »

Actually something springs to mind here. A lot of people are using their correct geographical address but not perhaps the address that is preferred/used by An Post and listed in the GeoDirectory. If on line retailers start doing look ups on Eircodes and then auto filling the address out and/or the address is filled in by the customer but the Eircode says it is wrong (less likely).

That'll cause issues.

Of course it does mean that they'll have to start being used and checked by retailers, insurance companies etc and I'm not seeing that yet...

ECAD has alias addresses and these presumably include the geographical address.

a65b2cd · 04-12-2015 10:55pm

From Minister Alex White:

Eircodes are an essential piece of the national postal infrastructure. Public sector bodies, particularly those with large customer facing operations, have started using Eircodes in customer engagement and this process will continue over the coming months. In accordance with the contract for the development and maintenance of Eircodes, my Department has put in place reporting structures with Capita which will, inter alia, include information on the commercial use of the Eircode system. Since the launch, a total of 23 Value Added Resellers have been signed up to develop and sell products and services using Eircode databases.

An Post, as universal service provider, was engaged in the design phase of the national postcode project and the Eircodes are fully integrated with An Post mails sortation systems. An Post were also heavily involved in the dissemination of the Eircode to 2.2 million residential and business addresses following the project's launch.

Both the CEO and Mails Operations Director of An Post have stated publicly that An Post will use Eircodes in their mail operations.

seanaway · 04-12-2015 11:45pm

Eircode is DEAD end of...

04-12-2015 11:57pm

seanaway wrote: »

Eircode is DEAD end of...

No it isn't!

It's use is expanding and like most new systems, it will take some time to become fully accepted. It is only a matter of time before the "option" of disclosing your postcode becomes "mandatory" for services like insurance or dealing with government agencies.

Ted_YNWA · 04-12-2015 11:59pm

a65b2cd wrote: »

From Minister Alex White:

Eircodes are an essential piece of the national postal infrastructure. Public sector bodies, particularly those with large customer facing operations, have started using Eircodes in customer engagement and this process will continue over the coming months. In accordance with the contract for the development and maintenance of Eircodes, my Department has put in place reporting structures with Capita which will, inter alia, include information on the commercial use of the Eircode system. Since the launch, a total of 23 Value Added Resellers have been signed up to develop and sell products and services using Eircode databases.

An Post, as universal service provider, was engaged in the design phase of the national postcode project and the Eircodes are fully integrated with An Post mails sortation systems. An Post were also heavily involved in the dissemination of the Eircode to 2.2 million residential and business addresses following the project's launch.

Both the CEO and Mails Operations Director of An Post have stated publicly that An Post will use Eircodes in their mail operations.

They missed sending out our Eircode & we have a unique address.

05-12-2015 12:05am

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

They missed sending out our Eircode & we have a unique address.

Did you find it yourself using the website, or are you not bothered?
I know that many are simply disinterested in the whole subject of postcodes and simply won't use them until required to do so.

Ted_YNWA · 05-12-2015 12:13am

Deleted User wrote: »

Did you find it yourself using the website, or are you not bothered?
I know that many are simply disinterested in the whole subject of postcodes and simply won't use them until required to do so.

I do know that & did have a quick look, but have no reason to use it as it will not benefit anyone as my address is 1 XXX street YYY town.

I have not had any need to use it.

oscarBravo · 05-12-2015 7:30pm

seanaway wrote: »

Eircode is DEAD end of...

It's not. It has been a godsend for my business.

I'd love to hear your reasoning for declaring it dead.

MBSnr · 07-12-2015 6:42pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's not. It has been a godsend for my business.

I'd love to hear your reasoning for declaring it dead.

Not dead - just generally unknown by most.

[I have no ties to FF. That just happens to be the best pic of the article you can read easily. Loc8's one on twitter is blurred].

https://twitter.com/MulliganEddie/status/673575046884032512

oscarBravo · 07-12-2015 6:55pm

I'm not sure what that article is supposed to prove. The vast majority of people, in my experience, don't know their PPS number off the top of their head. And yet, bizarrely, we don't have people jumping up and down screaming about how ZOMG PPS NUMBERS ARE DEAD END OF.

People can find their PPS numbers when they need them. People can find their Eircodes when they need them. The idea that Eircodes are a disaster because not everyone had theirs memorised within a few weeks of their introduction... it's just silly.

plodder · 08-12-2015 10:11am

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm not sure what that article is supposed to prove. The vast majority of people, in my experience, don't know their PPS number off the top of their head. And yet, bizarrely, we don't have people jumping up and down screaming about how ZOMG PPS NUMBERS ARE DEAD END OF.

People can find their PPS numbers when they need them. People can find their Eircodes when they need them. The idea that Eircodes are a disaster because not everyone had theirs memorised within a few weeks of their introduction... it's just silly.

It proves they were being dishonest when they claimed that 89% of the public knew their Eircode.

MBSnr · 08-12-2015 11:16am

plodder wrote: »

It proves they were being dishonest when they claimed that 89% of the public knew their Eircode.

Exactly. It was pure propaganda to try and convince everyone it was fully adopted. That's kinda sneaky but not unexpected... I don't have an issue with the idea of Eircode, the random structure or the uniquely identifying characteristics of it (as opposed to a UK postcode). I think the whole thing is a great idea but

... talk about arsed implementation. Imagine rolling out a large new IT system in a large company without it working across all platforms, without full support and basically saying - you can use it but it's not mandatory, as the old system works just as well. What will everyone do? Use the old system as before as the new system gathers dust and no one gets return on the investment. Sounds familiar.

My sole issue is literally the way it has been rolled out. We were all given an Eircode in the post back in Jul/Aug. Since then, there is still no Google maps support, virtually no tie in to online services outside of the Gov., no courier use, no An Post use etc. A bell tolls and tumble weeds blow by....

It's not dead but to all intents and purposes it may as well be to me and most others. I know it may come eventually but seriously it bugs me that I put my Eircode on items I want delivered to the house and there's still no point in me doing that. They still ring (unless it's the same driver who remembers being there before).

oscarBravo · 08-12-2015 11:18am

plodder wrote: »

It proves they were being dishonest when they claimed that 89% of the public knew their Eircode.

So what? Who cares?

I'm still waiting for seanaway to explain why Eircodes are dead.

MBSnr · 10-12-2015 1:42pm

Launched today I read on twitter - priced in GBP. Posted here as there doesn't seem to be a thread totally appropriate.
(I have nothing to do with them - just do a twitter search for eircode once in a while).

https://twitter.com/EircodeSoftware/status/674920318780235778
http://www.eircodesoftware.ie/
http://www.eircodesoftware.ie/prices.htm

larchill · 10-12-2015 3:57pm

Someone else making a few bob out of this

oscarBravo · 10-12-2015 3:59pm

€0.06 per lookup. It's hard to imagine anyone not being able to make a business case for paying that.

10-12-2015 5:09pm

The problem i have with eircodes is finding the actual property.

If you give me an Eircode for your address, I have to search for it on Eircode's site, then try and find the very same place on Google Maps, so that I can extract the coordinates to add it to my Garmin Satnav.

It takes too long. The only time it's worth doing is if you live in the ass end of nowhere and there's nothing around you, or you don't have a full address (ie; detached rural house, for example). Otherwise it's just as quick to belt your address into Google Maps and get the coordinates straight away. Much simpler.

Until Google Maps start accepting Eircodes, I don't see them as all that beneficial, to be completely honest. (which is sad, as Maps using Eircodes would make some aspects of my job much easier).

TheChizler · 10-12-2015 5:21pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If you give me an Eircode for your address, I have to search for it on Eircode's site, then try and find the very same place on Google Maps, so that I can extract the coordinates to add it to my Garmin Satnav.

In the interim, on your pc you can shrink the window down to mobile size and click "get directions", it will link to the location in Google Maps. The coordinates will be in the URL.

gizmo555 · 10-12-2015 5:46pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm still waiting for seanaway to explain why Eircodes are dead.

They may not be dead, but they're not showing much signs of life. I've yet to come across any Irish business which requires me to provide my Eircode to conduct a transaction with them and indeed, most businesses don't seem to use them themselves.

To take an example, here are the addresses of the three utility companies I have accounts with for my household, as published on their websites:

Vodafone Ireland Limited, Mountainview, Leopardstown, Dublin 18, Ireland
Irish Water, Colvill House, 24-26 Talbot Street, Dublin 1
Viridian Energy Limited, t/a Energia, Mill House, Ashtowngate, Navan Road, Dublin 15

Not an Eircode to be seen . . .

While you may find them helpful, it's clear most people and businesses see no particular benefit to using them. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've seen an Eircode on correspondence I've received since they were introduced.

oscarBravo · 10-12-2015 5:59pm

gizmo555 wrote: »

They may not be dead, but they're not showing much signs of life.

They're not compulsory, so adoption was always going to be somewhat slow. But I'm not talking about slow adoption; I'm arguing against the contention that they're dead, for which I've yet to see any evidence.

gizmo555 · 10-12-2015 6:36pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

They're not compulsory, so adoption was always going to be somewhat slow. But I'm not talking about slow adoption; I'm arguing against the contention that they're dead, for which I've yet to see any evidence.

Why would you adopt them? What use are they? They're meant to be postcodes and An Post appears to be largely ignoring them. In some cases, as we've seen, using Eircodes actually delays post.

Many people would also suspect that a significant reason for their introduction is to make it easier to apply household-based charges like water, property tax, the proposed broadcasting charge, etc.

Lastly, Eircode are being disingenuous on the privacy implications of the system of uniquely identifiying individual properties. They deny on the FAQ page of their website that they hold any personal data, which is completely contrary to the view of the Data Protection Commissioner. The Commissioner highlighted that no other country uses postcodes which uniquely identify houses.

gctest50 · 10-12-2015 6:41pm

gizmo555 wrote: »

Why would you adopt them? What use are they? They're meant to be postcodes and An Post appears to be largely ignoring them. In some cases, as we've seen, using Eircodes actually delays post.......................

they give an accurate location - what more do you need

gizmo555 · 10-12-2015 6:49pm

gctest50 wrote: »

they give an accurate location and all the hard work is done for you

Many freight and courier firms have said that Eircodes are completely unsuited to their needs and they won't bother with them. The general public couldn't easily use an Eircode to find an address - you can't put it into your satnav.

Anyway, isn't a bit farcical to have spent all that money on a postcode system that our post office has no interest in?

gctest50 · 10-12-2015 6:52pm

gizmo555 wrote: »

Anyway, isn't a bit farcical to have spent all that money on a postcode system that our post office has no interest in?

its not just a postcode it's an EIRCODE

Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

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