Isn't it time for school uniforms to be scrapped at this stage???

katydid · 16-04-2015 9:15pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Aye, but if the majority of Irish parents/students in a particular school want it and the majority of other countries dont then which group decides?

That isn't an answer to the question...why is it not a problem in other countries?

katydid · 16-04-2015 9:17pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Saying schools or kids like uniforms is not nessecarily wrong, but saying they need them is pretty much proven incorrect.

When I went to school not one kid liked wearing a uniform. It was the hypocracy of teaching us how to form an opinion, and then telling them what opinon to take. Express yourself, but only express the self we agree with.

That said, I completely agree with you when you talk of a dress code, but you can have a dress codce without a uniform.

I've been told by this poster that I'm "obsessed" because I dared to oppose his opinion.

One has to wonder what chance students in some Irish schools have to express their opinions or think for themselves.

Palmach · 16-04-2015 9:17pm

katydid wrote: »

You don't need a uniform to have a strict environment. In fact, you can have a more strict environment without a uniform, because you can have rules based on mutual respect, not on imposing discipline for the sake of it.

This is simply new age twaddle. Uniforms are used because it builds togetherness and discipline. That is why armies have uniforms as do corporations. School isn't only about the 3 Rs. It's about teaching to have the emotional intelligence to know what is expected. I am also a big fan of separate uniforms for boys and girls. The amount of Irish girls who simply look gauche and awkward when wearing stylish clothes is embarrassing. There is a reason air hostesses wear the jacket, a skirt and shirt gig.......it works. There is a reason male news presenters wear ties and suits....it works. It always amazes me that in Ireland this adolescent cry of "I wanna wear what I want!" is given credence.

Anonymagician · 16-04-2015 9:18pm

katydid wrote: »

I taught there, and the students thought the idea of a uniform was ridiculous.I also remember, when I taught in a girls' secondary school, when a group of French students came on an exchange to the school, and took part in classes. They were gobsmacked by the uniform the Irish girls had to wear.

The girl in Germany had a problem with boots. A girl in Ireland could have a problem with a coat or a phone or a bag... Uniforms don't minimise any problems in that respect.

I can only speak from personal experience and that's all I'm trying to do. Vast majority of students I've spoken have a preference for uniform (provided it's not ridiculous). Mass surveys were sent all around the country last year and the response on those was also hugely in favour. I don't think what other societies do should be a benchmark for us, you talk about individuality yet want us to follow other countries.

Yes, perhaps no uniforms has been a success in other countries, but uniforms have been a success and are preferred here. Clearly not by everyone but by the majority.

seavill · 16-04-2015 9:24pm

katydid wrote: »

I've taught teenagers for thirty years, and I've worked with them in a voluntary organisation for longer, since I was a teenager myself. The teenagers I taught thirty years are no different than the teenagers today.

In life you MAY have to wear a uniform and you may not have to. You, who does not wear a uniform, are forcing the people you teach to wear a uniform, therefore not giving them the choice they will have in later life when they choose a career.

Yes, I am telling people who hold an opinion different from mine they are wrong, because I believe they are wrong. Just like YOU are telling ME I'm wrong - that's how debate works. Do you put down any of your students who dare to challenge your beliefs?

Nobody is arguing; this is a debate, with people on both sides of the argument. In a debate, as in life, if you make a claim, you generally back it up, or your claim isn't taken seriously. Asking you to explain claims you've made is hardly "picking apart your post line by line". You have made no attempt to explain the claims you make, and you have a problem with debate.

What are you doing here?

Firstly I abide by a dress code that I must abide by. My point was you don't always get to do what you want which is true.
How am I forcing anyone to wear anything I don't make the school rules it is however my job to enforce them. That's not the same thing as forcing someone to wear a uniform. As I said I don't agree with uniforms in their current form. I think I've said that four times now.
Are you suggesting people will choose a career based on whether or not they have to wear a uniform or did I misread your point?

People opinions are not wrong because they are different to yours, they are just different opinions. Seriously can't believe you just said that. That anyone who differs to you is wrong. Can you point out in that last post where I said you were wrong. Twice in it I said I agreed with you to a certain extent. I just asked you to respect a different opinion
I also never said anyone was arguing. Can you stop putting words in my mouth unjust said I wasn't interested in getting into one with you which you, myself and others did get into recently more than once.

katydid · 16-04-2015 9:26pm

Anonymagician wrote: »

I can only speak from personal experience and that's all I'm trying to do. Vast majority of students I've spoken have a preference for uniform (provided it's not ridiculous). Mass surveys were sent all around the country last year and the response on those was also hugely in favour. I don't think what other societies do should be a benchmark for us, you talk about individuality yet want us to follow other countries.

Yes, perhaps no uniforms has been a success in other countries, but uniforms have been a success and are preferred here. Clearly not by everyone but by the majority.

We all have personal experiences, and they show different opinions from different people. Just like real life :-)

You've spoken to lots of students who want uniforms. I've spoken to lots of students (not in school anymore) who don't want uniforms, although many of them would have approved of them when they were in school. When they stop wearing them, and enter an environment where they realise it's no big deal, they often change their minds.

Mass surveys were done among PARENTS. Students weren't asked.
Who says uniforms have been a success? How is this success measured, given that there are almost no schools without uniforms?

bjork · 16-04-2015 9:28pm

Anonymagician wrote: »

I can only speak from personal experience and that's all I'm trying to do. Vast majority of students I've spoken have a preference for uniform (provided it's not ridiculous). Mass surveys were sent all around the country last year and the response on those was also hugely in favour. I don't think what other societies do should be a benchmark for us, you talk about individuality yet want us to follow other countries.

Yes, perhaps no uniforms has been a success in other countries, but uniforms have been a success and are preferred here. Clearly not by everyone but by the majority.

Maybe is because teenagers in other countries have been dressing themselves since they were 5 and have already mastered the skill by the time they are 12?

katydid · 16-04-2015 9:36pm

seavill wrote: »

Firstly I abide by a dress code that I must abide by. My point was you don't always get to do what you want which is true.
How am I forcing anyone to wear anything I don't make the school rules it is however my job to enforce them. That's not the same thing as forcing someone to wear a uniform. As I said I don't agree with uniforms in their current form. I think I've said that four times now.
Are you suggesting people will choose a career based on whether or not they have to wear a uniform or did I misread your point?

People opinions are not wrong because they are different to yours, they are just different opinions. Seriously can't believe you just said that. That anyone who differs to you is wrong. Can you point out in that last post where I said you were wrong. Twice in it I said I agreed with you to a certain extent. I just asked you to respect a different opinion
I also never said anyone was arguing. Can you stop putting words in my mouth unjust said I wasn't interested in getting into one with you which you, myself and others did get into recently more than once.

A dress code isn't a uniform. There's nothing wrong with a dress code. Your students don't have the option of abiding by a dress code, unlike you.

You may not make the rules, but you clearly approve of them. You may not agree with uniforms in their present form, but you agree with the idea of uniforms.

People who hold certain opinions naturally think that those who don't hold those opinions are wrong. You think I'm wrong to disapprove of uniforms, don't you? Or are you saying I'm not wrong? So I'm right???

YOU said you weren't interested in arguing with me. Have you forgotten your own words?

Some people certainly may choose a career based on whether or not they would be wearing a uniform. Or at least they choose careers that have or haven't a uniform. Irish schools are forcing them to wear a uniform when most of them won't wear a uniform at work.

Anonymagician · 16-04-2015 9:42pm

katydid wrote: »

We all have personal experiences, and they show different opinions from different people. Just like real life :-)

You've spoken to lots of students who want uniforms. I've spoken to lots of students (not in school anymore) who don't want uniforms, although many of them would have approved of them when they were in school. When they stop wearing them, and enter an environment where they realise it's no big deal, they often change their minds.

Mass surveys were done among PARENTS. Students weren't asked.
Who says uniforms have been a success? How is this success measured, given that there are almost no schools without uniforms?

What's to say that they haven't been a success? Besides your opinion, obviously.

The topic is debated about endlessly as there are pros and cons to each side. Honestly, I see no real harm in uniforms. As you've said, it's not a big deal.

And as I've said before, students in my school discuss it regularly. It's been a topic of discussion classes since I was in 1st year. But no, we were not officially surveyed, probably because we're not the ones paying for the uniforms. Generally college students are supposed to have their own income for clothes and so on while it's not the same in secondary school.

katydid · 16-04-2015 9:45pm

Palmach wrote: »

This is simply new age twaddle. Uniforms are used because it builds togetherness and discipline. That is why armies have uniforms as do corporations. School isn't only about the 3 Rs. It's about teaching to have the emotional intelligence to know what is expected. I am also a big fan of separate uniforms for boys and girls. The amount of Irish girls who simply look gauche and awkward when wearing stylish clothes is embarrassing. There is a reason air hostesses wear the jacket, a skirt and shirt gig.......it works. There is a reason male news presenters wear ties and suits....it works. It always amazes me that in Ireland this adolescent cry of "I wanna wear what I want!" is given credence.

People choose to join the army or corporations, or to become cabin crew or news presenters, but students don't choose to go to school.

How do you explain that all over the rest of Europe, outside us and the UK, schools manage to have togetherness and discipline without uniforms?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-04-2015 9:54pm

Anonymagician wrote: »

I spent some time in Germany where they wear no uniform. The girl I was staying with was feeling bad about herself at the time because a group of girls in her class had high heeled boot things and her mother wouldn't let her wear them. I'm not saying that feeling is universal, but it existed, and when some German girls visited my school they told us they liked the idea of a uniform.

I know a lot of paretns here (Berlin) and and have the exact oposite. The kids treat each other with more respect, but then that's taught from tageshule/kindergarten. They're also trusted a lot more - it's not unusal to see 8/9 year olds coming from from school on the UBahn alone. I know one parents who encoutages his 10-year-old to argue with him on the basis that that's how he sees her developing. Here, it'll be "I'm the parent, you're the child".

Question is, is the peer pressure a result of society's conditioning or a responce to it? My money;s on the former baed on having lived in and worked with kids in both cultures.

katydid · 16-04-2015 10:01pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I know a lot of paretns here (Berlin) and and have the exact oposite. The kids treat each other with more respect, but then that's taught from tageshule/kindergarten. They're also trustefd a lot more - it's not unusal to see 8/9 year olds coming from from school on the UBahn alone.

Question is, is the peer pressure a result of society's conditioning or a responce to it? My money;s on the former baed on having lived in and worked with kids in both cultures.

That's it, Princess. Irish kids are conditioned from age four or five to fit in, to wear uniforms, to not challenge the status quo. It's only when they come into an environment where they are given the freedom to think and encouraged to express themselves that they understand.

seavill · 16-04-2015 10:02pm

katydid wrote: »

A dress code isn't a uniform. There's nothing wrong with a dress code. Your students don't have the option of abiding by a dress code, unlike you.

You may not make the rules, but you clearly approve of them. You may not agree with uniforms in their present form, but you agree with the idea of uniforms.

People who hold certain opinions naturally think that those who don't hold those opinions are wrong. You think I'm wrong to disapprove of uniforms, don't you? Or are you saying I'm not wrong? So I'm right???

YOU said you weren't interested in arguing with me. Have you forgotten your own words?

Some people certainly may choose a career based on whether or not they would be wearing a uniform. Or at least they choose careers that have or haven't a uniform. Irish schools are forcing them to wear a uniform when most of them won't wear a uniform at work.

I know a dress code is not a uniform that's why I used the term dress code. I know they don't have an option what's your point. That's the whole point of the thread.

Yes I have now said maybe 5 times that I agree with the idea of some sort of uniform (use the word dress code if you wish) that's what I was trying to say. Again what's your point? I've stated my opinion several times unchanged.

I don't think you are wrong I have stated already I agree with your points to a certain extent. There is a difference between disagreeing with a viewpoint and insisting that all other opinions are completely wrong. Do you belittle your students like you are doing to others here that hold a different view to yours seen as they must be wrong.

I know I said I wasn't interested in arguing I'm not. Maybe I missed the word starting an argument but that's what I was implying. We both know other threads that have gone in a similar vein turned into arguments not just discussions. That was my point.

I have yet to speak to anyone that has chosen their career based on the fact that they did or did not have to wear a uniform. I'm sure there may be the very odd person (although unlikely) but the majority of people and I would suggest 99.999% of people wouldn't consider that when deciding what they want to do for the remainder of their lives.

I think the point that was made earlier was a great point that those who are shouting loudest for non conformity and individualism are the ones insisting that everyone must conform with their viewpoint. Quite ironic really

seavill · 16-04-2015 10:06pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Question is, is the peer pressure a result of society's conditioning or a responce to it? My money;s on the former baed on having lived in and worked with kids in both cultures.

Yea I'd have to agree with you that my money would also be in the former. But maybe that's part of the point someone made earlier that we are completely different types of societies so what works in one (Germany) might not work here due to society rather than a problem with the actual idea

katydid · 16-04-2015 10:12pm

seavill wrote: »

I know a dress code is not a uniform that's why I used the term dress code. I know they don't have an option what's your point. That's the whole point of the thread.

Yes I have now said maybe 5 times that I agree with the idea of some sort of uniform (use the word dress code if you wish) that's what I was trying to say. Again what's your point? I've stated my opinion several times unchanged.

I don't think you are wrong I have stated already I agree with your points to a certain extent. There is a difference between disagreeing with a viewpoint and insisting that all other opinions are completely wrong. Do you belittle your students like you are doing to others here that hold a different view to yours seen as they must be wrong.

I know I said I wasn't interested in arguing I'm not. Maybe I missed the word starting an argument but that's what I was implying. We both know other threads that have gone in a similar vein turned into arguments not just discussions. That was my point.

I have yet to speak to anyone that has chosen their career based on the fact that they did or did not have to wear a uniform. I'm sure there may be the very odd person (although unlikely) but the majority of people and I would suggest 99.999% of people wouldn't consider that when deciding what they want to do for the remainder of their lives.

I think the point that was made earlier was a great point that those who are shouting loudest for non conformity and individualism are the ones insisting that everyone must conform with their viewpoint. Quite ironic really

So the fact that you have a dress code has nothing to do with this discussion, then. It's not a uniform, and not relevant to young people who have to wear uniform.

I'm not counting how many times you've said you agree with uniforms. I KNOW you agree with uniforms. You made it quite clear. I'm not sure why you feel the need to count the times you've told me.

I don't know anyone who chooses a career based on whether or not they would wear a uniform; but I know plenty people, including myself, who would not choose to do a job where I would have to wear one. Why does it matter? The point is that adults have a choice. Schoolkids don't.

Where is your evidence that "those who are shouting loudest for non conformity and individualism are the ones insisting that everyone must conform with their viewpoint"?

I have asked you several questions, and you've answered very few. I suspect this will be another evasion. Like your failure to answer my question about whether, if you don't think I'm wrong, you must think I'm right...

katydid · 16-04-2015 10:14pm

seavill wrote: »

Yea I'd have to agree with you that my money would also be in the former. But maybe that's part of the point someone made earlier that we are completely different types of societies so what works in one (Germany) might not work here due to society rather than a problem with the actual idea

In what way are we different? Are young people different?

Anonymagician · 16-04-2015 10:17pm

katydid wrote: »

In what way are we different? Are young people different?

Yes young people are different. Was that not the whole basis of your argument there? Non conformity? People in different countries are different, I don't see why this should be explained..

byhookorbycrook · 16-04-2015 10:20pm

@katydid. Take 70 junior infants to the zoo with 2 adults and you'll see the value of a uniform.

bjork · 16-04-2015 10:20pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

@katydid. Take 70 junior infants to the zoo with 2 adults and you'll see the value of a uniform.

How many days a year do you go to the zoo?

seavill · 16-04-2015 10:21pm

katydid wrote: »

So the fact that you have a dress code has nothing to do with this discussion, then. It's not a uniform, and not relevant to young people who have to wear uniform.

I'm not counting how many times you've said you agree with uniforms. I KNOW you agree with uniforms. You made it quite clear. I'm not sure why you feel the need to count the times you've told me.

I don't know anyone who chooses a career based on whether or not they would wear a uniform; but I know plenty people, including myself, who would not choose to do a job where I would have to wear one. Why does it matter? The point is that adults have a choice. Schoolkids don't.

Where is your evidence that "those who are shouting loudest for non conformity and individualism are the ones insisting that everyone must conform with their viewpoint"?

I have asked you several questions, and you've answered very few. I suspect this will be another evasion. Like your failure to answer my question about whether, if you don't think I'm wrong, you must think I'm right...

Of course it's relevant it's a type of "uniform" although stretching the definition a bit. There is uniformity to what we are allowed and not allowed wear. We are not allowed wear jeans or track suits ( except pe teachers or days you might have a match or something) so not exact uniformity but some.

I'm honestly surprised that thought would cross someone's mind about a future career it never would have come to my mind or I've never heard anyone mention it before tonight.
The kids don't have a choice but some adults don't either that's all I was saying earlier. I know some do but not everyone does. Nothing more to my point than that.

You are my evidence. You don't want kids to have to conform but yet we all have to conform to your view otherwise secure wrong.

Please read back to my last post. The opening five words of the third paragraph "I don't think you are wrong" no evasion there that's pretty clear

katydid · 16-04-2015 10:21pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

@katydid. Take 70 junior infants to the zoo with 2 adults and you'll see the value of a uniform.

Of course. Give them tee shirts or high viz jackets or little caps. Identifying features are useful at times.

What has that got to do with everyday school?

seavill · 16-04-2015 10:22pm

katydid wrote: »

In what way are we different? Are young people different?

I said the two societies were different which was the point the other poster was making

evolving_doors · 16-04-2015 10:25pm

Anonymagician wrote: »

I'm a secondary school student in a school where many students would be considered well off. We often have this discussion, amongst ourselves and with teachers. Everyone is in favour of uniforms here. It's mainly the ease of rolling out of bed in the morning and throwing on a uniform, not worrying about colours or matching accessories.

In my opinion college is a completely different dynamic. It's a more relaxed environment, with students studying a multitude of things. It's just...different in college, I guess.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So why not bring about the college dynamic in secondary school...?

Beginning to get the impression that Irish teenagers are just too apathetic and indoctrinated.

And there-in lies the debate...

The student's who wear uniforms and want to wear uniforms (or wore them in the past) are being told they were wrong.

As i said, it does come up in parents' association meetings, and is reviewed, and by and large I've never heard of a school abandoning the uniform!

So, if a school's students and parents decide they want to keep it and get on with things why should an outsider have the right to say they're 'too apathetic and indoctrinated'?

Maybe the rest of the world is 'apathetic and indoctrinated' in their unquestioning neglect of the uniform. They're obviously wrong.

bjork · 16-04-2015 10:29pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

And there-in lies the debate...

The student's who wear uniforms and want to wear uniforms (or wore them in the past) are being told they were wrong.

As i said, it does come up in parents' association meetings, and is reviewed, and by and large I've never heard of a school abandoning the uniform!

So, if a school's students and parents decide they want to keep it and get on with things why should an outsider have the right to say they're 'too apathetic and indoctrinated'?

Maybe the rest of the world is 'apathetic and indoctrinated' in their unquestioning neglect of the uniform. They're obviously wrong.

They could have a touch of Stockholme syndrome? They've gone through the motion of wearing a uniform for 13/14 years. They may find it difficult to admit to themselves that it has been a futile exercise.

The outside has the right to say it if they think if effects students learning.

Laurenom · 16-04-2015 10:32pm

As a secondary school student, I honestly can see why uniform NEEDS to stay in schools. In this day and age your image is always under scrutiny especially in places where there are groups of teenagers..
In my school after Junior Cert the students were told they can wear what they want to PE and not the school tracksuit. At first I was like brilliant no more yellow and navy tracksuit but then the night before my PE lesson I started to think of how much I will be judged for not having the latest nike runners or a matching tracksuit or the most expensive gym gear.. And you can argue that it's not like that but it is., and I know I shouldn't have to feel like that, and personally I just go in my old track suits and do it because at the end of the day I don't pay attention to it but I know there are many many students who aren't able to ignore the looks and comments from the uneducated mindless kids in every school! So many kids will worry their heads away just over the fact that they don't have those runners or the gym gear and that's why kids should have to wear it; it would be great if young people in schools could accept others and we could all wear what we wanted but we can't! If everyone looks the same ; no one can judge!

katydid · 16-04-2015 10:33pm

seavill wrote: »

Of course it's relevant it's a type of "uniform" although stretching the definition a bit. There is uniformity to what we are allowed and not allowed wear. We are not allowed wear jeans or track suits ( except pe teachers or days you might have a match or something) so not exact uniformity but some.

I'm honestly surprised that thought would cross someone's mind about a future career it never would have come to my mind or I've never heard anyone mention it before tonight.
The kids don't have a choice but some adults don't either that's all I was saying earlier. I know some do but not everyone does. Nothing more to my point than that.

You are my evidence. You don't want kids to have to conform but yet we all have to conform to your view otherwise secure wrong.

Please read back to my last post. The opening five words of the third paragraph "I don't think you are wrong" no evasion there that's pretty clear

No, a dress code is not a uniform by any stretch of the imagination. You have a choice what colour to wear, what style to wear, what jewelry to wear, whether or not to wear make up, as long as you keep within certain boundaries. Your students have no such choice. They have to wear a particular jumper and pants/skirt of a particular style and colour, more than likely with a school crest on it.

I didn't say it would cross anyone's mind - please don't put words into my mouth. There are things people just wouldn't consider - it's not that they cross their mind, it just doesn't enter their mind. I never thought of becoming a brain surgeon or an air hostess, and I never thought of doing a job that involves a uniform. It's that simple. In any case, as I said, and will repeat; why does it matter?

How am I your evidence? Explain to me how my expressing my opinion is saying you have to conform? I express my opinion, you express yours, but when I express it, I am forcing you to conform? Is this how you treat students who dare to have different opinions to yours?

Anonymagician · 16-04-2015 10:34pm

bjork wrote: »

They could have a touch of Stockholme syndrome? They've gone through the motion of wearing a uniform for 13/14 years. They may find it difficult to admit to themselves that it has been a futile exercise.

The outside has the right to say it if they think if effects students learning.

Bit of a weird accusation there. I'd have no problem admitting if I thought a rule was futile, as some are. I don't think uniform is futile in secondary schools. It's an identifier, a tradition and a cost effective way that prevents certain types of peer pressure.

In my own school we have two different jumpers, one for junior students and one for senior. Only senior students are allowed leave the premises at lunch time. It's easy to spot the junior students this way. Uniforms are not a futile exercise. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean they are useless.

bjork · 16-04-2015 10:34pm

Laurenom wrote: »

...........and comments from the uneducated mindless kids in every school! .........

Would school not be the perfect place to educate their minds? Where else could we do it or do we just let them live with their ignorance?

seavill · 16-04-2015 10:35pm

katydid wrote: »

No, a dress code is not a uniform by any stretch of the imagination. You have a choice what colour to wear, what style to wear, what jewelry to wear, whether or not to wear make up, as long as you keep within certain boundaries. Your students have no such choice. They have to wear a particular jumper and pants/skirt of a particular style and colour, more than likely with a school crest on it.

I didn't say it would cross anyone's mind - please don't put words into my mouth. There are things people just wouldn't consider - it's not that they cross their mind, it just doesn't enter their mind. I never thought of becoming a brain surgeon or an air hostess, and I never thought of doing a job that involves a uniform. It's that simple. In any case, as I said, and will repeat; why does it matter?

How am I your evidence? Explain to me how my expressing my opinion is saying you have to conform? I express my opinion, you express yours, but when I express it, I am forcing you to conform? Is this how you treat students who dare to have different opinions to yours?

No it's not

katydid · 16-04-2015 10:36pm

Laurenom wrote: »

As a secondary school student, I honestly can see why uniform NEEDS to stay in schools. In this day and age your image is always under scrutiny especially in places where there are groups of teenagers..
In my school after Junior Cert the students were told they can wear what they want to PE and not the school tracksuit. At first I was like brilliant no more yellow and navy tracksuit but then the night before my PE lesson I started to think of how much I will be judged for not having the latest nike runners or a matching tracksuit or the most expensive gym gear.. And you can argue that it's not like that but it is., and I know I shouldn't have to feel like that, and personally I just go in my old track suits and do it because at the end of the day I don't pay attention to it but I know there are many many students who aren't able to ignore the looks and comments from the uneducated mindless kids in every school! So many kids will worry their heads away just over the fact that they don't have those runners or the gym gear and that's why kids should have to wear it; it would be great if young people in schools could accept others and we could all wear what we wanted but we can't! If everyone looks the same ; no one can judge!

So you started thinking about appearances and how people are judged etc. That's wonderful. Isn't that a good thing? Imagine if all students started thinking like that?
I know it can be uncomfortable to have to think about uncomfortable things, but it's part of learning about life.

Does it really help to avoid the issue by dressing as clones?

katydid · 16-04-2015 10:40pm

seavill wrote: »

I said the two societies were different which was the point the other poster was making

The societies might be different, but young people aren't. They value fairness and they are not so shallow that they think about clothes all the time.

If there are societies that do things better than us, why shouldn't we look at what they are doing right, and take it on board? And they could take things from us that we do better.

bazinga1 · 16-04-2015 10:42pm

Speaking as a secondary school student myself, I am so glad we have a uniform in our school. I'm glad I don't have to pick a new outfit to wear everyday and have to deal with competition or people bitching about your clothes. And imagine the amount of more washing you'd have to do!

katydid · 16-04-2015 10:43pm

bazinga1 wrote: »

Speaking as a secondary school student myself, I am so glad we have a uniform in our school. I'm glad I don't have to pick a new outfit to wear everyday and have to deal with competition or people bitching about your clothes. And imagine the amount of more washing you'd have to do!

And imagine having to think for yourself and to wear what you feel like!

What are you afraid of?

Anonymagician · 16-04-2015 10:48pm

katydid wrote: »

The societies might be different, but young people aren't. They value fairness and they are not so shallow that they think about clothes all the time.

If there are societies that do things better than us, why shouldn't we look at what they are doing right, and take it on board? And they could take things from us that we do better.

If the societies are different then the inhabitants of the society are different, otherwise the societies wouldn't be different?

You've had several teenagers currently in school and wearing uniforms happily tell you their opinions but all you're doing is insisting they are wrong and afraid.

I am a teenager. I am in school. I wear a uniform. There ARE people who care about clothes immensely and there ARE people looked down on for the clothes they do or do not wear. There ARE young people who judge other young people.

seavill · 16-04-2015 10:48pm

katydid wrote: »

The societies might be different, but young people aren't. They value fairness and they are not so shallow that they think about clothes all the time.

If there are societies that do things better than us, why shouldn't we look at what they are doing right, and take it on board? And they could take things from us that we do better.

And who's to judge whether the things they do are better then us or not? Very philosophical question there

Laurenom · 16-04-2015 10:50pm

bjork wrote: »

Would school not be the perfect place to educate their minds? Where else could we do it or do we just let them live with their ignorance?

It is but unfortunately once they leave school as you know yourself they are straight onto the Internet where again, image is super important! A lot of students like myself would listen and wouldn't judge but I can't speak for everyone and I first hand see kids being judged everyday even while wearing uniform.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-04-2015 10:50pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

@katydid. Take 70 junior infants to the zoo with 2 adults and you'll see the value of a uniform.

Good Christ, is that ratio not neglient? 70 kids with just 2 adults - what happens is soemthing happens to one of the adults...??

Hi viz jackets do the job over here, but there's one adult for every 8 or 9 kids and I'd consider that the far more important fact to consider.

katydid · 16-04-2015 10:50pm

seavill wrote: »

And who's to judge whether the things they do are better then us or not? Very philosophical question there

True. But they are certainly not doing worse. The youth of mainland Europe are not running riot in their schools because they are allowed wear their own clothes. And, unlike Irish students, they are allowed self expression, which ou surely agree is a good thing?

Anonymagician · 16-04-2015 10:51pm

katydid wrote: »

And imagine having to think for yourself and to wear what you feel like!

What are you afraid of?

What if I feel like wearing a uniform? I don't feel like having to spend a significantly more amount of money on clothes and a significantly more amount of time choosing and worrying about clothes?

katydid · 16-04-2015 10:51pm

Laurenom wrote: »

It is but unfortunately once they leave school as you know yourself they are straight onto the Internet where again, image is super important! A lot of students like myself would listen and wouldn't judge but I can't speak for everyone and I first hand see kids being judged everyday even while wearing uniform.

Shame you have such a low opinion of your fellow students. In my experience, they are not that shallow.

bjork · 16-04-2015 10:53pm

Anonymagician wrote: »

What if I feel like wearing a uniform? I don't feel like having to spend a significantly more amount of money on clothes and a significantly more amount of time choosing and worrying about clothes?

There's no uniform for the real world, it's better you learn the skills early

Laurenom · 16-04-2015 10:53pm

katydid wrote: »

So you started thinking about appearances and how people are judged etc. That's wonderful. Isn't that a good thing? Imagine if all students started thinking like that?
I know it can be uncomfortable to have to think about uncomfortable things, but it's part of learning about life.

Does it really help to avoid the issue by dressing as clones?

It's a great thing but unfortunately not every student thinks like that! And for the benefit of the insecure kids who are subject to bullying IF we could wear our own clothes it's best to keep uniform to keep things running smoothly in my opinion.. And when we get to university we can where our own clothes and not have to worry because the narrow minded idiots in our secondary schools won't have made it past the leaving cert!:-))

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-04-2015 10:53pm

Anonymagician wrote: »

What if I feel like wearing a uniform? I don't feel like having to spend a significantly more amount of money on clothes and a significantly more amount of time choosing and worrying about clothes?

Knock yourself out and get a uniform. Quesiton is why do you feel the like forcing everyone else to wear them?

Seriously, though, what is it that a uniform does that a good dress code doesn't?

katydid · 16-04-2015 10:54pm

Anonymagician wrote: »

What if I feel like wearing a uniform? I don't feel like having to spend a significantly more amount of money on clothes and a significantly more amount of time choosing and worrying about clothes?

If you feel like wearing a uniform, what's to stop you wearing the exact same thing to school every day? Nobody would force you to change your clothes every day if you prefer not to.

And what would be wrong with your school colleagues wearing what they want to wear?

seavill · 16-04-2015 10:54pm

katydid wrote: »

True. But they are certainly not doing worse. The youth of mainland Europe are not running riot in their schools because they are allowed wear their own clothes. And, unlike Irish students, they are allowed self expression, which ou surely agree is a good thing?

But again who is to decide if they are not doing worse? One may say one thing another might disagree.
The French, Greek etc are well known for their violent riots actually. Does that go back to issues with too much choice, being allowed wear/do what they want? Who knows bit topic/thread there

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 16-04-2015 10:56pm

Grand with keeping uniforms but they should be made far more comfortable and casual.

Laurenom · 16-04-2015 10:56pm

katydid wrote: »

Shame you have such a low opinion of your fellow students. In my experience, they are not that shallow.

You haven't been to my school, if you were you'd understand. "Posh" is the biggest insult ever in the school I attend, but YET you are looked down upon if you don't wear the most expensive Nike runners or the latest brands.

EoghanIRL · 16-04-2015 10:57pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Knock yourself out and get a uniform. Quesiton is why do you feel the like forcing everyone else to wear them?

Seriously, though, what is it that a uniform does that a good dress code doesn't?

What if a students parents can't afford
to buy suitable clothes so that their children can conform to this dress code?

katydid · 16-04-2015 10:57pm

Laurenom wrote: »

It's a great thing but unfortunately not every student thinks like that! And for the benefit of the insecure kids who are subject to bullying IF we could wear our own clothes it's best to keep uniform to keep things running smoothly in my opinion.. And when we get to university we can where our own clothes and not have to worry because the narrow minded idiots in our secondary schools won't have made it past the leaving cert!:-))

No, not every student thinks like that. They don't get the chance to, because they aren't allowed to wear what they want to wear, are they? They aren't confronted with situations where they have to think in that way/

So people who don't go to university are broad minded and those who choose other paths are "narrow minded idiots"? How patronising of you.

This from someone who doesn't want to think for themselves, and who wants all their school mates to be the same as them... Do you realise that you're a poster girl for the harm uniforms do to the way people think?

bjork · 16-04-2015 10:58pm

EoghanIRL wrote: »

What if a students parents can't afford
to buy suitable clothes so that their children can conform to this dress code?

There'd be no need for the uniform grant from the state if everybody could afford the current uniforms

Isn't it time for school uniforms to be scrapped at this stage???

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