Isn't it time for school uniforms to be scrapped at this stage???

jimmycrackcorm · 16-04-2015 1:34pm

Standardised uniforms are a good idea but passing â‚¬50 for a jumper just because it has a crest isn't.

bjork · 16-04-2015 1:35pm

Cr4pSnip3r wrote: »

Am I? I don't even know, discussing things on the internet is something I find hard to do at times. I much prefer in person.

They are different, though. I believe you were saying that it is bad for students to separate the mindsets of school and home life, as it makes them believe learning stops at school. I was just trying to say that it separates two different types of learning for me. Maybe if secondary school was not as restrictive overall we'd not need uniforms but the kind of heavy rules usually present in schools make normal clothing inappropriate, I do think. Maybe if we made at least the Leaving Certificate more open and akin to university/college life then we'd have a different scenario?

I'm not a rigid board, of course, I'm open to change

Yes I agree, they are currently different and students are forced to compartmentalise because of the exam structure and pressure. It is not through any failing of their own. This is the system. There is another thread in relation to exams so I won't go in to it here.

They are two different types of learning, not just for you but for many students, yet you are only one person. Why are we forcing you to learn in 2 drastically different ways instead of providing you with opportunities to learn constantly in the style that suits you and with things that are useful to you? This is also not a failing on individual students part. It's the system.

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sorry bjork, but while some students can meld the work/life balance in the ways you're suggesting, for the rest of us.....................

What it appears to me you are saying here is

"Instead of training the ones that can't, we limit the ones that can"

Getting up in the morning and dressing yourself is a basic skill and if a lot of people are struggling to do that, something needs to be addressed somewhere along the line. It might be a core reason why we have such a tracksuit brigade; one uniform swapped for another becasue it's easy.
Just a thought

evolving_doors · 16-04-2015 4:28pm

katydid wrote: »

At second level there are no schools where I live that don't have a uniform, so parents don't have any choice. That is the case for most parents.

Parents have a say through parents council. They can't force anything but from what I've read its usually put to a vote of all parents via the parents association.

16-04-2015 5:04pm

bjork wrote: »

What it appears to me you are saying here is

"Instead of training the ones that can't, we limit the ones that can"

Getting up in the morning and dressing yourself is a basic skill and if a lot of people are struggling to do that, something needs to be addressed somewhere along the line. It might be a core reason why we have such a tracksuit brigade; one uniform swapped for another becasue it's easy.
Just a thought

Erm, words jammed in my mouth much?

Some of the smartest people I know can't dress themselves, they have carers.

"Limiting" happens inside and outside school, whether by design or in spite of it. What separates the wheat from the chaff is how we deal with that which would limit us.

And you seem to think that the only worthwhile learning happens in classes. Not so. You learn regardless, in the schoolyard, at home, everywhere. You just don't realise it at the time. Every transaction between people, every conversation, every observation, every experience, even the sitting around doing nothing while waiting outside the principal's office, it's ALL education. Just not formal. Just think of Madness' Baggy Trousers "all i learned at school, was how to bend and break the rules". He's not on about his subjects, but I doubt Suggs failed all his GCSEs or whatever.

Anyway, I'm sceptical of holistic approaches, I believe in a broad spectrum of experiences, let them specialise after.

Edit: sorry, yes, tangent. Uniforms do not limit kids, and I now see their value both as an anti-truancy measure and as a lesson in themselves..

bjork · 16-04-2015 5:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Erm, words jammed in my mouth much?

No, just reading what it is you are writing and letting me understand

Deleted User wrote: »

Some of the smartest people I know can't dress themselves, they have carers.

?

Deleted User wrote: »

"Limiting" happens inside and outside school, whether by design or in spite of it. What separates the wheat from the chaff is how we deal with that which would limit us.

And you seem to think that the only worthwhile learning happens in classes. Not so. You learn regardless, in the schoolyard, at home, everywhere. You just don't realise it at the time. Every transaction between people, every conversation, every observation, every experience, even the sitting around doing nothing while waiting outside the principal's office, it's ALL education. Just not formal. Just think of Madness' Baggy Trousers "all i learned at school, was how to bend and break the rules". He's not on about his subjects, but I doubt Suggs failed all his GCSEs or whatever.

Yes this is what I said, We agree

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyway, I'm sceptical of holistic approaches, I believe in a broad spectrum of experiences, let them specialise after.

What do you define a holistic approach to be, if it's not giving the a broad spectrum of experiences?

Deleted User wrote: »

Edit: sorry, yes, tangent. Uniforms do not limit kids, and I now see their value both as an anti-truancy measure and as a lesson in themselves..

Whats the lesson? because if its "We'll make you do pointless stuff because we can", what's the point in that?

katydid · 16-04-2015 6:27pm

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I volunteer with kids, we have a uniform. It puts them all on an equal footing. Without it you can clearly see the haves and have nots. I would think it would be a really bad thing for all of them if the uniform was removed. Kids can be under enough pressure as it is.

Voluntary organisations are a different kettle of fish. Children choose to participate. They don't have a choice to participate in school.

And all this thing about haves and have nots? What do you think rich kids would be wearing? Kids all wear the same things as each other anyway - they just ring the changes with designs and colours.

And IF some kid comes home saying that Johnny has Nike trainers or whatever, the parent just says "Good for Johnny". Life is about learning that it's not all about designer brands.

katydid · 16-04-2015 6:31pm

dvdman1 wrote: »

Uniforms are a must for young people to learn conformity, being part of something and respecting their school, teachers and classmates.
I do agree with making them more comfortable, better quality and more fasionable looking would help.

I must conform, I must conform...

EXACTLY why uniforms are wrong. There are enough parts of life where kids have to conform - there are many elements of school where rules and regulations are necessary. Why do you want to turn them into robots?

Do you really think that the young people of Germany, France, Spain, Sweden, Holland etc. etc. don't respect their teacher and their classmates? I can tell you for a fact, from my own experience, that they respect their teachers far more, because their teachers don't spend time enforcing petty rules about make up or nail polish or the wearing of ties and actually concentrate on good rules like respect for each other, getting work done on time, and all the things that do matter.

katydid · 16-04-2015 6:34pm

Stavro Mueller wrote: »

There's plenty of time outside of school to wear one's own clothes and express themselves. In school it gives people one less thing to think about.

They don't think about it. They come to school and get on with things. The only ones that think about clothes at school are those that have to wear a uniform, and get to wear their own clothes on a "no uniform day". In a girls' school especially, that becomes like Paris Fashion Week.

katydid · 16-04-2015 6:38pm

OldNotWIse wrote: »

. I remember even when we had so called "colour days" at school, when we'd wear whatever we want and make a donation to charity and it was a feckin huge production to make sure you were wearing something cool and fashionable and try to keep up with your peers (as is common at that age). Imagine having that every day? .

The only reason it was a huge production is because it was a novelty. For kids in non-uniform schools, wearing whatever you want is no big deal. They just get on with other, more important things.

rainbowtrout · 16-04-2015 6:39pm

katydid wrote: »

Voluntary organisations are a different kettle of fish. Children choose to participate. They don't have a choice to participate in school.

And all this thing about haves and have nots? What do you think rich kids would be wearing? Kids all wear the same things as each other anyway - they just ring the changes with designs and colours.

And IF some kid comes home saying that Johnny has Nike trainers or whatever, the parent just says "Good for Johnny". Life is about learning that it's not all about designer brands.

No they don't. In the school I work in there are plenty of kids who can afford to be decked out in Abercrombie and Fitch and have iPhone 6 etc etc and other kids who are wearing clothes from charity shops in town. I regularly see kids (mainly from families who wouldn't have much money coming in) still wearing their school jacket 2 years after they've left school. They're not wearing it for the love of the school that's for sure. I can imagine that their families don't have the money for multiple jackets.

It's not all about designer brands but for a 14 year old it means their charity shop clothes aren't being compared to the latest designer fashions. In their uniforms they are equal.

bjork · 16-04-2015 6:44pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

No they don't. In the school I work in there are plenty of kids who can afford to be decked out in Abercrombie and Fitch and have iPhone 6 etc etc and other kids who are wearing clothes from charity shops in town. I regularly see kids (mainly from families who wouldn't have much money coming in) still wearing their school jacket 2 years after they've left school. They're not wearing it for the love of the school that's for sure. I can imagine that their families don't have the money for multiple jackets.

It's not all about designer brands but for a 14 year old it means their charity shop clothes aren't being compared to the latest designer fashions. In their uniforms they are equal.

2 years after they have left school, I would expect them to be responsible for purchasing their own Jacket. What age are they before they become responsible for buying their own clothes? You can get a jacket in pennys for 15 euro, are you telling me they couldn't save up their dole and get one? Perhaps there are more factor at play than money there? Are they showing up at job interviews in their school jackets, 2 years after they have left school? - No wonder they can't get work?!?

Pennys is probably the same price as charity shop clothes and they mostly all wear the stuff out of it, but so what if another pupil has labels?

katydid · 16-04-2015 6:45pm

Dr Crippen wrote: »

jamie124 wrote: »

. Students wont want to go to school deshevled and therefore more pressure on parents to buy the newest or latest clothing

You are joking, right? Disheveled is THE look. Tracksuit bottoms that trail on the ground, grungy hoodies and tops.

If students want special clothes or designer labels, they can save up for them or get them for birthday or Christmas presents.

Really, the notions people have here about young people is amazing. They aren't all hung up on fashion, as a rule. Some are; that's their self expression. I have one student, a small blonde girl, who loves to dress in frilly, floaty dresses and wear flowery things in her hair. I have another, a beautiful Nigerian girl who looks like she's just come off the catwalk in Milan every day. That's who they are. The rest wear the trackies and the jeans and the tops and nobody cares.

katydid · 16-04-2015 6:48pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

No they don't. In the school I work in there are plenty of kids who can afford to be decked out in Abercrombie and Fitch and have iPhone 6 etc etc and other kids who are wearing clothes from charity shops in town. I regularly see kids (mainly from families who wouldn't have much money coming in) still wearing their school jacket 2 years after they've left school. They're not wearing it for the love of the school that's for sure. I can imagine that their families don't have the money for multiple jackets.

It's not all about designer brands but for a 14 year old it means their charity shop clothes aren't being compared to the latest designer fashions. In their uniforms they are equal.

If they want to deck themselves out in Abercrombie and Finch, let them off. It's a good lesson to other people that clothes aren't what it's all about - that designer labels don't define who you are. The vast majority of them will wear ordinary clothes, whether or not they can afford designer clothes.

Honestly, you make young people sound incredibly shallow.

rainbowtrout · 16-04-2015 6:49pm

bjork wrote: »

2 years after they have left school, I would expect them to be responsible for purchasing their own Jacket. What age are they before they become responsible for buying their own clothes? You can get a jacket in pennys for 15 euro, are you telling me they couldn't save up their dole and get one? Perhaps there are more factor at play than money there? Are they showing up at job interviews in their school jackets, 2 years after they have left school? - No wonder they can't get work?!?

Pennys is probably the same price as charity shop clothes and they mostly all wear the stuff out of it, but so what if another pupil has labels?

So, so, judgemental of people you don't know....

endacl · 16-04-2015 6:52pm

Always entertaining that the time to scrap uniforms is coincidental with the time the proposer of said scrapping reaches senior cycle.

I remember being convinced they should be scrapped in 1987...

rainbowtrout · 16-04-2015 6:54pm

katydid wrote: »

If they want to deck themselves out in Abercrombie and Finch, let them off. It's a good lesson to other people that clothes aren't what it's all about - that designer labels don't define who you are. The vast majority of them will wear ordinary clothes, whether or not they can afford designer clothes.

Honestly, you make young people sound incredibly shallow.

If it's not all about clothes, why are you so obsessed with the fact that uniforms are worn in most Irish schools and the fact that your daughter was put out by not being able to wear a red jumper if she felt like it?

I'm not making young people sound shallow. Some kids can afford expensive clothes, some can't. It will always be like. It doesn't make it right for those that can afford them to look down on those that can't and bully them because of it. Many of them are not mature enough to realise that this is wrong until they have left school.

bjork · 16-04-2015 6:59pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

So, so, judgemental of people you don't know....

Yes, If an 18-20 year old can't sort themselves out with a new jacket there are serious issues.

What we have at the moment is adults not in uniforms telling children they'll never be professional if they don't wear a uniform. The adults might as well be saying "We don't wear uniforms becasue we are not professionals"

Uniforms are not only a physiological but also a visual barrier in the division between home and school

rainbowtrout · 16-04-2015 7:03pm

bjork wrote: »

Yes, If an 18-20 year old can't sort themselves out with a new jacket there are serious issues.

What we have at the moment is adults not in uniforms telling children they'll never be professional if they don't wear a uniform. The adults might as well be saying "We don't wear uniforms becasue we are not professionals"

Uniforms are not only a physiological but also a visual barrier in the division between home and school

The town I work is economically deprived. There is little or no industry in the town. Lots of social housing. A lot of people don't have a lot of money.

You know it might just be the case that those families keep the jackets because they are good quality and last for years, rather than throwing money away on stuff from Penneys which is not great quality and won't last.

But continue to judge people you don't know...

bjork · 16-04-2015 7:07pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

The town I work is economically deprived. There is little or no industry in the town. Lots of social housing. A lot of people don't have a lot of money.

You know it might just be the case that those families keep the jackets because they are good quality and last for years, rather than throwing money away on stuff from Penneys which is not great quality and won't last.

But continue to judge people you don't know...

Yes, if only we sent them to a place where they could learn skills to help them out of the poverty trap

Social Housing> So they are probably paying €15/week and claiming a benefits along with their parents. Don't give me crap they have no money for a jacket. What sort of phones do they have?

They choose to spend their money on other things

Does the state still give the uniform grant?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-04-2015 7:08pm

mrsoundie wrote: »

Scrap uniforms, then the fashion race begins, more money.

ThisRegard wrote: »

That's the real problem. And ostracism and bullying will stem for not being "with it" or wearing the wrong clothes, or even wearing the same outfit too often.

Just ask your parents to get you better quality clothes.

How come this never happens on the continent, where they don;t have uniforms?

katydid · 16-04-2015 7:28pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

If it's not all about clothes, why are you so obsessed with the fact that uniforms are worn in most Irish schools and the fact that your daughter was put out by not being able to wear a red jumper if she felt like it?

I'm not making young people sound shallow. Some kids can afford expensive clothes, some can't. It will always be like. It doesn't make it right for those that can afford them to look down on those that can't and bully them because of it. Many of them are not mature enough to realise that this is wrong until they have left school.

I should have thought I'd made it perfectly plain why my objections are, as a parent and as a teacher. I'm not going to rehearse them again. I'm no more "obsessed" than anyone else engaging in this discussion; taking a stance that is contrary to yours doesn't make me obsessed.

It's a rather strange stance for a teacher to take, taking offence at someone expressing a contrary opinion.

You are making out that young people are shallow, if you put so much emphasis on their opinion of designer labels. Maybe in a uniformed school young people are fixated on clothes, but in the real world outside school or in schools without uniforms, it isn't an issue for the vast majority. Part of learning about is learning not to fixate on stuff like designer labels.

DivingDuck · 16-04-2015 7:37pm

The bullying argument doesn't wash with me. I attended a secondary school with a strict uniform policy, and bullying was rife. In fact, the majority of Irish schools have a uniform, and yet most people would agree that bullying is still a problem in a huge number of schools. Bullies will always find a reason to abuse others.

Stronger bullying prevention programs and handling polices will do far more to reduce peer problems in schools than insisting upon a uniform.

katydid · 16-04-2015 7:42pm

DivingDuck wrote: »

The bullying argument doesn't wash with me. I attended a secondary school with a strict uniform policy, and bullying was rife. In fact, the majority of Irish schools have a uniform, and yet most people would agree that bullying is still a problem in a huge number of schools. Bullies will always find a reason to abuse others.

Stronger bullying prevention programs and handling polices will do far more to reduce peer problems in schools than insisting upon a uniform.

Bullies will always find a target. If it's not clothes it'll be something else. I spent half an hour today counselling and comforting a student who is suffering from racist bullying.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-04-2015 7:57pm

DivingDuck wrote: »

The bullying argument doesn't wash with me. I attended a secondary school with a strict uniform policy, and bullying was rife. In fact, the majority of Irish schools have a uniform, and yet most people would agree that bullying is still a problem in a huge number of schools. Bullies will always find a reason to abuse others.

Stronger bullying prevention programs and handling polices will do far more to reduce peer problems in schools than insisting upon a uniform.

Totally.

You get people using the same excuse to ban same-sex marriage in similar cases.

jonon9 · 16-04-2015 8:12pm

What I find is school uniforms is getting too expensive especially the primary school uniform. I live in a town where there is only one shop that sells them a pure monopoly.

jonon9 · 16-04-2015 8:13pm

DivingDuck wrote: »

The bullying argument doesn't wash with me. I attended a secondary school with a strict uniform policy, and bullying was rife. In fact, the majority of Irish schools have a uniform, and yet most people would agree that bullying is still a problem in a huge number of schools. Bullies will always find a reason to abuse others.

Stronger bullying prevention programs and handling polices will do far more to reduce peer problems in schools than insisting upon a uniform.

Completely agree!

katydid · 16-04-2015 8:13pm

jonon9 wrote: »

What I find is school uniforms is getting too expensive especially the primary school uniform. I live in a town where there is only one shop that sells them a pure monopoly.

There are definitely vested interests in maintaining school uniforms.

evolving_doors · 16-04-2015 8:27pm

katydid wrote: »

Voluntary organisations are a different kettle of fish. Children choose to participate. They don't have a choice to participate in school.
....

Ahh! a while back you were saying 17/18 yr. olds in sec. school were the same as 17/18 yr olds in college?

katydid · 16-04-2015 8:30pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Ahh! a while back you were saying 17/18 yr. olds in sec. school were the same as 17/18 yr olds in college?

And?

evolving_doors · 16-04-2015 8:36pm

katydid wrote: »

There are definitely vested interests in maintaining school uniforms.

Well ok, abolish them. Its not as if teenagers would want to buy more casual clothes then ! Right!!

I think clothing industry would see the sales go up due to pressures on teenagers to expand their wardrobe. And I bet it'd be by more than just a uniform/a spare and a tracksuit...

But surely teenagers should cop on you say!
And surely parents shouldnt give in to the pressure you say!

Its simple, aint nobody got time for that hassle.

Hence why I think most students want uniforms.
Hence why I think most parents want uniforms.

Anyone ever get to see the result of Ruairi Quinn's mega-sort-this-out-once-and-for-all-survey?

evolving_doors · 16-04-2015 8:38pm

katydid wrote: »

And?

you said that voluntary organisations were 'completely different'

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-04-2015 8:40pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Well ok, abolish them. Its not as if teenagers would want to buy more casual clothes then ! Right!!

I think clothing industry would see the sales go up due to pressures on teenagers to expand their wardrobe. And I bet it'd be by more than just a uniform/a spare and a tracksuit...

But surely teenagers should cop on you say!
And surely parents shouldnt give in to the pressure you say!

Its simple, aint nobody got time for that hassle.

Hence why I think most students want uniforms.
Hence why I think most parents want uniforms.

Anyone ever get to see the result of Ruairi Quinn's mega-sort-this-out-once-and-for-all-survey?

How it works in other countries.

evolving_doors · 16-04-2015 8:44pm

katydid wrote: »

Bullies will always find a target. If it's not clothes it'll be something else. I spent half an hour today counselling and comforting a student who is suffering from racist bullying.

I didn't spend any time counselling or comforting a student about slagging they get about their 'cheap pennies clothes'.

Im just wondering .... are the pro-uniform camp all teaching in uniformed clothes?
And the anti uniform camp in casual clothes schools?

Is there a bias going on here?

stehyl15 · 16-04-2015 8:46pm

Can someone please name one country other than the uk or australia that wears a school uniform

Anonymagician · 16-04-2015 8:47pm

I'm a secondary school student in a school where many students would be considered well off. We often have this discussion, amongst ourselves and with teachers. Everyone is in favour of uniforms here. It's mainly the ease of rolling out of bed in the morning and throwing on a uniform, not worrying about colours or matching accessories.

In my opinion college is a completely different dynamic. It's a more relaxed environment, with students studying a multitude of things. It's just...different in college, I guess.

bjork · 16-04-2015 8:50pm

Anonymagician wrote: »

I'm a secondary school student in a school where many students would be considered well off. We often have this discussion, amongst ourselves and with teachers. Everyone is in favour of uniforms here. It's mainly the ease of rolling out of bed in the morning and throwing on a uniform, not worrying about colours or matching accessories.

In my opinion college is a completely different dynamic. It's a more relaxed environment, with students studying a multitude of things. It's just...different in college, I guess.

more relaxed than rolling out of bed and dragging the first thing on? How much more relaxed can things be? In college you just go in your pyjamas?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-04-2015 8:53pm

Anonymagician wrote: »

I'm a secondary school student in a school where many students would be considered well off. We often have this discussion, amongst ourselves and with teachers. Everyone is in favour of uniforms here. It's mainly the ease of rolling out of bed in the morning and throwing on a uniform, not worrying about colours or matching accessories.

In my opinion college is a completely different dynamic. It's a more relaxed environment, with students studying a multitude of things. It's just...different in college, I guess.

So why not bring about the college dynamic in secondary school...?

Beginning to get the impression that Irish teenagers are just too apathetic and indoctrinated.

Anonymagician · 16-04-2015 8:53pm

bjork wrote: »

more relaxed than rolling out of bed and dragging the first thing on? How much more relaxed can things be? In college you just go in your pyjamas?

I wasn't referring to the clothes, I was referring to the environment. I think school has a stricter environment that a uniform fits into it. There's also obviously less students, making the uniform feasible.

seavill · 16-04-2015 8:56pm

katydid wrote: »

Life is about learning.

Indeed it is. That's the point some people are making. Maybe it's teaching kids that later in life you might have a job where you have to wear a uniform also or have to work within constraints. Maybe it a good life lesson that you don't always get to do what you want to do.

Like I said I don't agree with uniforms when they are over the top but I feel some form of uniform is a good thing from my experience teaching teenagers for the last 10 years.

You do realise not everyone has to agree with you. People are allowed have different opinions without being wrong.
You have had several current or recent students come on here saying they agreed with uniforms yet you basically tell them their opinion is wrong.
You had at lest one teacher here say they surveyed the kids in their schools and it came out in favour of uniforms also but yet you feel those kids are wrong as are those teachers.
I'm not interested in arguing with you in the slightest as I said I partly agree with your stance but will you please just respect people's opinion without picking apart every post line by line and almost telling everyone their own personal opinion is wrong.

Anonymagician · 16-04-2015 8:56pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So why not bring about the college dynamic in secondary school...?

I don't think students, junior ones in particular, would benefit. Secondary is a step in life and the next one for a lot of students is college. College allows the student more responsibility towards themselves, granting that in secondary school to 12 year olds could go very wrong.

katydid · 16-04-2015 8:57pm

Anonymagician wrote: »

I wasn't referring to the clothes, I was referring to the environment. I think school has a stricter environment that a uniform fits into it. There's also obviously less students, making the uniform feasible.

You don't need a uniform to have a strict environment. In fact, you can have a more strict environment without a uniform, because you can have rules based on mutual respect, not on imposing discipline for the sake of it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-04-2015 8:58pm

Anonymagician wrote: »

I don't think students, junior ones in particular, would benefit. Secondary is a step in life and the next one for a lot of students is college. College allows the student more responsibility towards themselves, granting that in secondary school to 12 year olds could go very wrong.

And yet, in other societies, it;s been a success?

katydid · 16-04-2015 8:58pm

Anonymagician wrote: »

I don't think students, junior ones in particular, would benefit. Secondary is a step in life and the next one for a lot of students is college. College allows the student more responsibility towards themselves, granting that in secondary school to 12 year olds could go very wrong.

You don't think young teenagers would respond to being treated with respect?

Anonymagician · 16-04-2015 9:03pm

katydid wrote: »

You don't think young teenagers would respond to being treated with respect?

I don't think uniforms are an issue of respect. No one I've spoken to about this sees the teachers as treating them disrespectfully for enforcing a simple rule. It's life, there are rules, people follow them. I'm just giving my opinion here, from someone who's been wearing a uniform for the majority of my life.

evolving_doors · 16-04-2015 9:03pm

stehyl15 wrote: »

Can someone please name one country other than the uk or australia that wears a school uniform

Aye, but if the majority of Irish parents/students in a particular school want it and the majority of other countries dont then which group decides?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-04-2015 9:03pm

seavill wrote: »

Indeed it is. That's the point some people are making. Maybe it's teaching kids that later in life you might have a job where you have to wear a uniform also or have to work within constraints. Maybe it a good life lesson that you don't always get to do what you want to do.

Like I said I don't agree with uniforms when they are over the top but I feel some form of uniform is a good thing from my experience teaching teenagers for the last 10 years.

You do realise not everyone has to agree with you. People are allowed have different opinions without being wrong.
You have had several current or recent students come on here saying they agreed with uniforms yet you basically tell them their opinion is wrong.
You had at lest one teacher here say they surveyed the kids in their schools and it came out in favour of uniforms also but yet you feel those kids are wrong as are those teachers.
I'm not interested in arguing with you in the slightest as I said I partly agree with your stance but will you please just respect people's opinion without picking apart every post line by line and almost telling everyone their own personal opinion is wrong.

Saying schools or kids like uniforms is not nessecarily wrong, but saying they need them is pretty much proven incorrect.

When I went to school not one kid liked wearing a uniform. It was the hypocracy of teaching us how to form an opinion, and then telling them what opinon to take. Express yourself, but only express the self we agree with.

That said, I completely agree with you when you talk of a dress code, but you can have a dress codce without a uniform.

Mountainsandh · 16-04-2015 9:03pm

Grew up in France, went to French school, no uniform... Never suffered from bullying, although my parents weren't well off and we didn't have the latest choice in fashion or branded shoes etc...

This argument about bullying, people being teased or ostracized because of their clothing or style simply does not hold up.

What happened is that by the end of first or even in second year, most people found their preferred style of clothing, and developed enough strength of character to be happy with it, despite not necessarily having the branded clothes to wear. Simultaneously, you learned to accept others for who they were rather than what they wore.

So this supposedly big ordeal that is the clothes/fashion police bullying, is simply an excuse to justify keeping kids in uniforms here.

I personally think it's a terrible thing, it goes against the kids' healthy development. They need to find themselves, and finding a style they like, and learning how to have the confidence to stick to it despite others' comments or opinions, is part of that.

It (no uniform) paradoxically makes them less vulnerable to bullying, imo.
They experiment, try to be the same, try to be different, wish for brands, deal with the fact that they can't have them, and in the end you have a more rounded, confident individual.

All the uniforms are doing here is delaying this developmental milestone until college, when people go silly.

Anonymagician · 16-04-2015 9:06pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

And yet, in other societies, it;s been a success?

I spent some time in Germany where they wear no uniform. The girl I was staying with was feeling bad about herself at the time because a group of girls in her class had high heeled boot things and her mother wouldn't let her wear them. I'm not saying that feeling is universal, but it existed, and when some German girls visited my school they told us they liked the idea of a uniform.

katydid · 16-04-2015 9:07pm

seavill wrote: »

Indeed it is. That's the point some people are making. Maybe it's teaching kids that later in life you might have a job where you have to wear a uniform also or have to work within constraints. Maybe it a good life lesson that you don't always get to do what you want to do.

Like I said I don't agree with uniforms when they are over the top but I feel some form of uniform is a good thing from my experience teaching teenagers for the last 10 years.

You do realise not everyone has to agree with you. People are allowed have different opinions without being wrong.
You have had several current or recent students come on here saying they agreed with uniforms yet you basically tell them their opinion is wrong.
You had at lest one teacher here say they surveyed the kids in their schools and it came out in favour of uniforms also but yet you feel those kids are wrong as are those teachers.
I'm not interested in arguing with you in the slightest as I said I partly agree with your stance but will you please just respect people's opinion without picking apart every post line by line and almost telling everyone their own personal opinion is wrong.

I've taught teenagers for thirty years, and I've worked with them in a voluntary organisation for longer, since I was a teenager myself. The teenagers I taught thirty years are no different than the teenagers today.

In life you MAY have to wear a uniform and you may not have to. You, who does not wear a uniform, are forcing the people you teach to wear a uniform, therefore not giving them the choice they will have in later life when they choose a career.

Yes, I am telling people who hold an opinion different from mine they are wrong, because I believe they are wrong. Just like YOU are telling ME I'm wrong - that's how debate works. Do you put down any of your students who dare to challenge your beliefs?

Nobody is arguing; this is a debate, with people on both sides of the argument. In a debate, as in life, if you make a claim, you generally back it up, or your claim isn't taken seriously. Asking you to explain claims you've made is hardly "picking apart your post line by line". You have made no attempt to explain the claims you make, and you have a problem with debate.

What are you doing here?

katydid · 16-04-2015 9:10pm

Anonymagician wrote: »

I spent some time in Germany where they wear no uniform. The girl I was staying with was feeling bad about herself at the time because a group of girls in her class had high heeled boot things and her mother wouldn't let her wear them. I'm not saying that feeling is universal, but it existed, and when some German girls visited my school they told us they liked the idea of a uniform.

I taught there, and the students thought the idea of a uniform was ridiculous.I also remember, when I taught in a girls' secondary school, when a group of French students came on an exchange to the school, and took part in classes. They were gobsmacked by the uniform the Irish girls had to wear.

The girl in Germany had a problem with boots. A girl in Ireland could have a problem with a coat or a phone or a bag... Uniforms don't minimise any problems in that respect.

Isn't it time for school uniforms to be scrapped at this stage???

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