Isn't it time for school uniforms to be scrapped at this stage???

Oafley Jones · 15-04-2015 10:32pm

katydid wrote: »

Not where I work.

I thought you said you were a teacher. Honestly, you seem incredibly overbearing on this issue. If you send your kid to a school and they've a certain dress code; then respect that. If you don't agree with it take them someplace else. This notion that you're impinging on their right to espression sounds really petulant.

implausible · 15-04-2015 10:32pm

katydid wrote: »

You can have dress codes in school to avoid skimpy clothing and the like without forcing the kids to wear the kind of clothes they'd never wear in real life.

Or better still, have an easily-enforcible conflict-avoiding dress code: blue jumper, grey shirt, grey trousers, black shoes.

katydid wrote: »

As for buying "wardrobes", that's nonsense. The students don't buy "wardrobes" for school or college, they just wear the clothes that are at home in the wardrobes anyway.

If you are wearing what you want 167 days per year, for 8 hours per day, that's a lot of extra clothes - I'd call it a wardrobe. You are assuming that the students have lots of clothes in the wardrobe. In a DEIS school, this may not be the case, so much so that on non-uniform days they 'forget' and come in in the uniform. In a uniform, the less well off look the same as the kids who have the brands in the wardrobe.

As a parent, I'm delighted to have a uniform for my fella - cheaper, less hassle and predictable.

Lau2976 · 15-04-2015 10:33pm

katydid wrote: »

I'm a teacher. I haven't worn a uniform for forty years except in the course of a voluntary activity I'm involved in, and that's my choice.

If I chose a career where I had to wear a uniform, that would be my choice.
Schoolkids have no choice.

Not every school kid wil become a teacher and even teachers and office workers are expected to dress professionally. And you think someone's gonna avoid a job because the uniform?

Uniforms are a reality of life. As an adult and a child.

katydid · 15-04-2015 10:39pm

implausible wrote: »

Or better still, have an easily-enforcible conflict-avoiding dress code: blue jumper, grey shirt, grey trousers, black shoes.

If you are wearing what you want 167 days per year, for 8 hours per day, that's a lot of extra clothes - I'd call it a wardrobe. You are assuming that the students have lots of clothes in the wardrobe. In a DEIS school, this may not be the case, so much so that on non-uniform days they 'forget' and come in in the uniform. In a uniform, the less well off look the same as the kids who have the brands in the wardrobe.

As a parent, I'm delighted to have a uniform for my fella - cheaper, less hassle and predictable.

But WHY have everyone wearing the same colour jumper and trousers? What about the kid that feels like wearing a red jumper one morning because they feel happy and positive and are fed up of blue?

When they go home from school they change into the clothes they would have been wearing all day if they could. They don't need any other clothes. My daughter went through eight years of primary school and I just bought her clothes for everyday wear. No big deal. They don't have to have loads of stuff in their wardrobe; one hoodie or pair of jeans is much the same as another.

Of course it's easier for you as a parent if your child has to wear the same thing every day; no arguments in the morning. It is hard when kids have opinions of their own you mightn't always agree with - there were days I had to bite my tongue and not comment on what my daughter decided to wear to school. But it's not my place to dictate to someone else what to wear, any more that it's their place to dictate to me what I should wear.

Mint Aero · 15-04-2015 10:43pm

http://factmag-images.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Eton-College-001.jpg Uniforms are a bit naff. Plenty of time for a lot of students to be wearing them in Tesco etc. Schools in Ireland should take more pride and require proper attire like the above. Then the students might have a sense of pride in their education instilled in them.

poster2525 · 15-04-2015 10:44pm

katydid wrote: »

But WHY have everyone wearing the same colour jumper and trousers? What about the kid that feels like wearing a red jumper one morning because they feel happy and positive and are fed up of blue?

Investing in a nice range of nail varnishes might be the best option in these situations!

Lau2976 · 15-04-2015 10:45pm

katydid wrote: »

But WHY have everyone wearing the same colour jumper and trousers? What about the kid that feels like wearing a red jumper one morning because they feel happy and positive and are fed up of blue?

When they go home from school they change into the clothes they would have been wearing all day if they could. They don't need any other clothes. My daughter went through eight years of primary school and I just bought her clothes for everyday wear. No big deal. They don't have to have loads of stuff in their wardrobe; one hoodie or pair of jeans is much the same as another.

Of course it's easier for you as a parent if your child has to wear the same thing every day; no arguments in the morning. It is hard when kids have opinions of their own you mightn't always agree with - there were days I had to bite my tongue and not comment on what my daughter decided to wear to school. But it's not my place to dictate to someone else what to wear, any more that it's their place to dictate to me what I should wear.

But eventually so many regulations will exist that they may as well be wearing a uniform. She's your child, of course you should dictate what you deem appropriate for her to wear.

seavill · 15-04-2015 10:53pm

katydid wrote: »

Or maybe because young people are not as hung up on these things as we think? How come a seventeen year old can go to college and come in happily ever day to class without any hassle? How can entire classes of seventeen and eighteen year olds get through the whole day without bullying or sniping at each other over what they wear? How come kids in other countries don't make a big deal of it?

I really don't know why I'm responding but here it goes.

I agree with you that young people 17-20 are not as hung up as most people think but we are talking about secondary school here not FE. Yea you can have two 17 year olds in both scenarios but one is part of a secondary school the other is not. The secondary school has to cater for everyone from 12-18 the other does not. Different scenarios.

I think your twenty years away from second level is the difference in my opinion to yours. I'm dealing with hundreds of 12-18 year olds every day. You are not. So my opinion is coming from a slightly different angle to yours.

I agree that I don't think schools should be over the top in terms of exact type of shoes. Girls only in kilts etc. however from my experience of dealing with these teenagers I feel a school uniform is important. Go into McDonald's lifestyle sports etc etc etc people have to wear a uniform. I wear track suits all the time outside school I can't in school tough. My friend loves jeans he can't wear them in school as a teacher. Tough. That's part of life. Hardly the end of the works if your daughter feels like wearing a red jumper today but can't. Bit of a life lesson there.

I do agree with you that 17 year olds in general in my experience in secondary schools could happily not wear a uniform without much hassle but the same cannot be said for 12-16 year olds from my experience. It is difficult for a school to have one rule for 6th years and another for everyone else so in that regard it's just a bit of hard luck on them but for the greater good I feel it's important to keep uniforms but there certainly could be some cop on used in some schools and some cooperation on decisions from the kids when deciding on a uniform.

katydid · 15-04-2015 11:11pm

seavill wrote: »

I really don't know why I'm responding but here it goes.

I agree with you that young people 17-20 are not as hung up as most people think but we are talking about secondary school here not FE. Yea you can have two 17 year olds in both scenarios but one is part of a secondary school the other is not. The secondary school has to cater for everyone from 12-18 the other does not. Different scenarios.

I think your twenty years away from second level is the difference in my opinion to yours. I'm dealing with hundreds of 12-18 year olds every day. You are not. So my opinion is coming from a slightly different angle to yours.

I agree that I don't think schools should be over the top in terms of exact type of shoes. Girls only in kilts etc. however from my experience of dealing with these teenagers I feel a school uniform is important. Go into McDonald's lifestyle sports etc etc etc people have to wear a uniform. I wear track suits all the time outside school I can't in school tough. My friend loves jeans he can't wear them in school as a teacher. Tough. That's part of life. Hardly the end of the works if your daughter feels like wearing a red jumper today but can't. Bit of a life lesson there.

I do agree with you that 17 year olds in general in my experience in secondary schools could happily not wear a uniform without much hassle but the same cannot be said for 12-16 year olds from my experience. It is difficult for a school to have one rule for 6th years and another for everyone else so in that regard it's just a bit of hard luck on them but for the greater good I feel it's important to keep uniforms but there certainly could be some cop on used in some schools and some cooperation on decisions from the kids when deciding on a uniform.

I still don't understand how a seventeen year old in secondary school is different to a seventeen year old in a FE college. They have the same feelings, same thoughts, same principles. The only difference is that the ones at secondary school haven't experienced the freedom of being able to choose for themselves, so they stick to their comfort zone. It's not all that difficult to have one rule for sixth years and another for the rest of the school. In Newtown school in Waterford, the sixth years don't have to wear the school uniform. It's a special privilege that the students look forward to and value.

I don't think secondary school kids have changed that much in twenty years. They resented being disciplined for having the wrong colour shoes or having to wear a tie then, and they still do.

People who choose to work in McDonalds or as cabin crew or soldiers have to wear a uniform. It is a lifestyle choice. Schoolkids don't have that option.

katydid · 15-04-2015 11:15pm

Lau2976 wrote: »

But eventually so many regulations will exist that they may as well be wearing a uniform. She's your child, of course you should dictate what you deem appropriate for her to wear.

If she is wearing something inappropriate, certainly. But otherwise it's her choice. I may not like her taste, but it's her taste...

katydid · 15-04-2015 11:16pm

poster2525 wrote: »

Investing in a nice range of nail varnishes might be the best option in these situations!

Probably wouldn't be allowed in most schools. No make up, no nail varnish, no earrings, no dyed hair - no fun...

katydid · 15-04-2015 11:18pm

Lau2976 wrote: »

Not every school kid wil become a teacher and even teachers and office workers are expected to dress professionally. And you think someone's gonna avoid a job because the uniform?

Uniforms are a reality of life. As an adult and a child.

You choose your career. You don't choose to be a school student.

Teachers and other workers who don't have a uniform are expected to adhere to a dress code. But they have freedom within that. If I feel like wearing a red dress tomorrow, I'll wear a red dress. If I feel like wearing a pair of jeans and a blouse, I'll wear a pair of jeans and a blouse.

Uniforms are a reality of life for some adults. But a reality of life for practically all students in Ireland.

seavill · 15-04-2015 11:20pm

katydid wrote: »

I still don't understand how a seventeen year old in secondary school is different to a seventeen year old in a FE college. They have the same feelings, same thoughts, same principles. The only difference is that the ones at secondary school haven't experienced the freedom of being able to choose for themselves, so they stick to their comfort zone. It's not all that difficult to have one rule for sixth years and another for the rest of the school. In Newtown school in Waterford, the sixth years don't have to wear the school uniform. It's a special privilege that the students look forward to and value.

I don't think secondary school kids have changed that much in twenty years. They resented being disciplined for having the wrong colour shoes or having to wear a tie then, and they still do.

People who choose to work in McDonalds or as cabin crew or soldiers have to wear a uniform. It is a lifestyle choice. Schoolkids don't have that option.

If you read my post I did say that there isn't a difference between the two 17 year olds only one happens to unfortunately be in a place that has to Cater for what I believe to be the greater good of the majority of 12-18 year old so they are unlucky to an extent that its location rather than design.

Students and society have changed massively in 20 years if you think they have not then that explains a lot of your views.

Yes the kids in the private or semi private school have that rule where in general the problem of the kids who can't afford a breakfast never mind designer clothes doesn't exist.
When there is a tradition of that rule it's easy to keep. To add it in is more difficult but certainly not impossible.

ThisRegard · 15-04-2015 11:22pm

Well one thing for certain, use of the multi quote button should be made mandatory.

katydid · 15-04-2015 11:24pm

Oafley Jones wrote: »

I thought you said you were a teacher. Honestly, you seem incredibly overbearing on this issue. If you send your kid to a school and they've a certain dress code; then respect that. If you don't agree with it take them someplace else. This notion that you're impinging on their right to espression sounds really petulant.

Yes, I am a teacher. And where I work, the students don't wear uniforms, and it's not an issue for the first few months of college, as was suggested.

How is it "overbearing" to point out how it is where I work? It's stating a fact.

Most people in Ireland don't have an option as to whether or not to send their children to a non-uniform school. At second level, such a thing is practically non-existent. So the option of going somewhere else is a non starter.

Gran Hermano · 15-04-2015 11:28pm

I found the Cuban model interesting, the uniform is the same for all children in all schools. It just changes as you progress through the school years.

http://www.cuba-junky.com/cuba/cuba-education.htm

I experienced both uniform and non uniform schools. I would still agree with uniforms up to junior cert and let those in transition/fifth/sixth have the option.

katydid · 15-04-2015 11:30pm

seavill wrote: »

If you read my post I did say that there isn't a difference between the two 17 year olds only one happens to unfortunately be in a place that has to Carter for what I believe to be the greater good of the majority of 12-18 year old so they are unlucky to an extent that its location rather than design.

Students and society have changed massively in 20 years if you think they have not then that explains a lot of your views.

Yes the kids in the private or semi private school have that rule where in general the problem of the kids who can't afford a breakfast never mind designer clothes doesn't exist.
When there is a tradition of that rule it's easy to keep. To add it in is more difficult but certainly not impossible.

Yes, I did read your post. Which was why I responded as I did...

If there is no difference between seventeen year olds, then it should be perfectly possible to have a different rule for seventeen year olds than for twelve year olds in a school setting. They are young adults, they can drive a car, some are eighteen, and can vote, for heaven's sake. How hard would it be to say to a twelve year old "when you're in sixth year, you will be treated differently than you are now"?

In what way have students changed massively? The ones I'm seeing who are seventeen or eighteen have changed very little. I'm really curious to see in what way you believe they have changed?

I don't understand how a school being a private or semi private school would change the fact that older teenagers should be treated differently from young teenagers.

Why is it so hard to introduce new rules? If they make sense and the kids appreciate it, why not?

seavill · 15-04-2015 11:33pm

katydid wrote: »

Yes, I did read your post. Which was why I responded as I did...

If there is no difference between seventeen year olds, then it should be perfectly possible to have a different rule for seventeen year olds than for twelve year olds in a school setting. They are young adults, they can drive a car, some are eighteen, and can vote, for heaven's sake. How hard would it be to say to a twelve year old "when you're in sixth year, you will be treated differently than you are now"?

In what way have students changed massively? The ones I'm seeing who are seventeen or eighteen have changed very little. I'm really curious to see in what way you believe they have changed?

I don't understand how a school being a private or semi private school would change the fact that older teenagers should be treated differently from young teenagers.

Why is it so hard to introduce new rules? If they make sense and the kids appreciate it, why not?

My posts have answered all the questions you ask that are relevant to this thread.
The rest I'm not getting into with you are it will drag the thread off topic and I'll end up going around in circles with you again as we won't agree which means I'm obviously wrong

vamos! · 15-04-2015 11:37pm

Sure we could just educate the 12 year old in FE colleges and treat them like mini adults. Problem solved. Our students were surveyed recently and the vast majority were pro-uniform. The students are generally from quite wealthy backgrounds, so would have plenty of designer bits and bobs to show off in but the uniform is convenient. My work 'uniform' is not forced on me but I tend to wear the same few outfits in rotation. It is convenient. Work days are busy enough without having to wake up in the morning and decide which outfit best reflects my mood. I do think uniforms need to be comfortable though. There is a lot to be said for looking smart but I worked in one school where the jumpers were made from an odd material blend and the students smelled like dogs whenever the jumpers got wet or damp. Not pleasant!

katydid · 15-04-2015 11:41pm

vamos! wrote: »

Sure we could just educate the 12 year old in FE colleges and treat them like mini adults. Problem solved. Our students were surveyed recently and the vast majority were pro-uniform. The students are generally from quite wealthy backgrounds, so would have plenty of designer bits and bobs to show off in but the uniform is convenient. My work 'uniform' is not forced on me but I tend to wear the same few outfits in rotation. It is convenient. Work days are busy enough without having to wake up in the morning and decide which outfit best reflects my mood. I do think uniforms need to be comfortable though. There is a lot to be said for looking smart but I worked in one school where the jumpers were made from an odd material blend and the students smelled like dogs whenever the jumpers got wet or damp. Not pleasant!

You CHOOSE to wear the same outfits in rotation, because it's convenient. Good for you. Schoolkids don't have that choice. Why shouldn't they?

How is a twelve year old different from an eighteen year old in terms of being able to make such choices? Do we really want our children to be so compliant that they prefer not to think for themselves? What's wrong with a twelve year old thinking "I'd like to wear a red jumper today"?

katydid · 15-04-2015 11:45pm

seavill wrote: »

My posts have answered all the questions you ask that are relevant to this thread.
The rest I'm not getting into with you are it will drag the thread off topic and I'll end up going around in circles with you again as we won't agree which means I'm obviously wrong

You didn't answered the questions I asked: you didn't explain HOW second level students have changed massively. It's a pretty comprehensive claim, and relevant to this discussion, but hardly stands up if you can't explain what you mean.
Neither did you explain how a school being private or semi-private is relevant in how you treat seventeen year olds in a different way to twelve year olds.

Nor did you explain why it's hard to introduce new rules...

If you don't want to answer the questions, that's fine. But please don't claim that you did answer them when you clearly did not.

I'm off to bed. Better decide what I'm going to wear in the morning; that'll take a whole thirty seconds...

Cr4pSnip3r · 16-04-2015 12:12am

I'm actually attending secondary school as a 6th year student at the moment. I support a school uniform. I've made a fair few friends off the back of my personality, I've had no issue being me, I've felt no deep sadness in the morning because I couldn't pick a red jumper instead of my usual navy. It helps create an atmosphere of seriousness, it separates school from home. Everytime we've had a no uniform day it has brought the ease and lack of focus that being at home and relaxing can bring. I find I study best in school and in my uniform, and second best anywhere else with my uniform still on.

evolving_doors · 16-04-2015 12:27am

it's been debated ad nauseam for years... decades even (maybe centuries in some schools I'm sure). I remember it was our first foray into debating in 1st year English class. I've not heard anything new in the debate since then.

Is this just a case of parents generally agree with the system they had themselves. I think there was some research on parental preference for single sex schools v's co-ed and generally it usually came down to copying whatever system the parents went to. (With the female parent having the final say IIRC too!).

Although I don't think we'd chose a school for a child on uniform issue, it's just that the majority have uniforms so the majority always will.

Are the new educate together's all non uniform as a matter of interest?

shruikan2553 · 16-04-2015 12:43am

I think they should at least be improved. From 5-18 it was the same type of uniform that was cold in winter and warm in summer. I remember teachers really going over the top about looking "smart" and how it is to prepare us for the real world when we were working. I don't know what kind of jobs they expected us to get but it wasn't in my area where shorts and sandals can be seen in the warmer summers.

I dont think things would be as bad without uniforms as people make it out to be though.

zcorpian88 · 16-04-2015 12:49am

My secondary school self would agree with scraping the uniforms as it was awful but at least everyone dressed the same,

But now that I've been out of school a few years I remembered one thing that went on in my school on a GAA jersey/non uniform day.

Being a Kilkenny native, everybody showed up in Kilkenny jerseys, this student a year behind me didn't have the O' Neills official GAA jersey that cost about €60 each. She showed up to school in a Penneys knock off of the jersey, the poor girl got completely bullied and ridiculed over it, kept being called poor and cheap and other really nasty names.

I think back to then and I'd imagine what it would be like having no uniforms and really it would be a fashion contest and the students from less well off backgrounds will be picked on all day, would be more costly on parents that have kids that just want to fit in. The joys of school and "Keeping up with the Jones's"

NufcNavan · 16-04-2015 1:19am

I remember having non uniform day in school. One of the teachers rightly pointed out the irony of the clamour for the end of uniforms, while 90% of the school (all boys) arrived in wearing hoodies and tracksuits.

Moody_mona · 16-04-2015 8:08am

Posters who are arguing about the lack of choice or freedom students have; there are plenty of things school related that students have no choice over.

While you can argue that if someone wants to wear a red jumper they should be allowed, should they also be allowed to skip Maths because they want to, or go to a different English class because they like the sound of it better that day?

There are plenty of rules that students must adhere to in order for a school to function. Arriving in uniform is following a simple instruction. As some one else said, school is not a fashion show.

Guy:Incognito · 16-04-2015 8:21am

I was in a primary school with a uniform, then a secondary with none from 1st to 4th year then changed to one with a uniform for 5th and 6th year. Bloody hate uniforms. Boiling away in a shirt, tie and jumper on a hot day. I'm primary school we'd play football before school and on breaks, doesn't take long to start sweating through a shirt. It was great for the years without one. Always comfortable. On hot days most of the school would be in shorts and t-shirts.

Just on the "fashion race" posts. Surely these people , especially for anyone living in a small town, are getting bullied outside of schools over their clothes so? And if not, how come?

Teyla Emmagan · 16-04-2015 8:31am

I volunteer with kids, we have a uniform. It puts them all on an equal footing. Without it you can clearly see the haves and have nots. I would think it would be a really bad thing for all of them if the uniform was removed. Kids can be under enough pressure as it is.

Dravokivich · 16-04-2015 8:41am

I've no problem with the concept of a school uniform, but I don't like some of the things a secondary school I went to did, to sell their uniform.

- For PE you needed the school t-shirt. Sold through a local bookshop, owned by the Pincipal.

- Tie, through the school

- Jumper, through a local men's boutique, which was rather expensive and out of place. Considering it was in <snip> as well. That place now deals primarily in local school uniforms as far as I'm aware.

As a few others have mentioned before. A brief on the colours of the school and let the parents work it from there how they can.

Larbre34 · 16-04-2015 8:44am

Uniforms are a good thing. They should however be less prescriptive and more casual and comfortable within a range. A lot of schools in the UK have modernised to include polo shirts, tights and slacks where desired for girls, a casual weatherproof jacket with a bit of style, more rugged multi-purpose shoes, hoodies with crests, summer options etc

The notion of buying €100 wool jumpers and layered bloody kilt skirts belongs a hundred years ago.

Avoid the fashion parade that can be murder on homes with less resources, but let the kids feel like they are making some choices while demonstrating responsibility.

dvdman1 · 16-04-2015 8:53am

Uniforms are a must for young people to learn conformity, being part of something and respecting their school, teachers and classmates.
I do agree with making them more comfortable, better quality and more fasionable looking would help.

katydid · 16-04-2015 8:53am

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Although I don't think we'd chose a school for a child on uniform issue, it's just that the majority have uniforms so the majority always will.

At second level there are no schools where I live that don't have a uniform, so parents don't have any choice. That is the case for most parents.

katydid · 16-04-2015 8:54am

shruikan2553 wrote: »

I dont think things would be as bad without uniforms as people make it out to be though.

They seem to manage ok in every other part of Europe bar the UK.

katydid · 16-04-2015 8:55am

NufcNavan wrote: »

I remember having non uniform day in school. One of the teachers rightly pointed out the irony of the clamour for the end of uniforms, while 90% of the school (all boys) arrived in wearing hoodies and tracksuits.

But the hoodies and tracksuits weren't identical, I'll bet. Different colours, different logos...

katydid · 16-04-2015 8:59am

Moody_mona wrote: »

Posters who are arguing about the lack of choice or freedom students have; there are plenty of things school related that students have no choice over.

While you can argue that if someone wants to wear a red jumper they should be allowed, should they also be allowed to skip Maths because they want to, or go to a different English class because they like the sound of it better that day?

There are plenty of rules that students must adhere to in order for a school to function. Arriving in uniform is following a simple instruction. As some one else said, school is not a fashion show.

Wearing a red jumper and skipping class are not comparable. That's just silly. As you rightly say, there are plenty rules there already. Petty rules that are resented don't make it easier to obey the good rules. As I said, having taught at second level in a country where there are no uniforms, the school rules are easier to enforce, because they make sense.

Schools all over the world function without feeling the need to force young people to wear the same clothes. I don't see chaos and anarchy breaking out in Sweden or France or Spain because young people are allowed express themselves in their mode of dress.

Stavro Mueller · 16-04-2015 9:08am

Kids push the envelope when it comes to self expression anyway. Like the schoolgirls who wear their skirts too short. In my time wearing socks around the ankles was a big thing - not so sure now without checking. Youngsters doing things with their hair, customising their shoes, not wearing a tie or making it very messy...

I definitely agree that many uniforms should be modernised and made more comfortable. Some nicer colours would be desirable too. Maroon and bottle green in particular do not suit your average Irish teenager. I still shudder when I remember the nasty official issue school shirt that was the worst thing you could give a sweaty teenager to wear. I've always thought the v neck jumper, shirt and tie combo was hideous but schools seem to be moving away from it.

There's plenty of time outside of school to wear one's own clothes and express themselves. In school it gives people one less thing to think about.

the_syco · 16-04-2015 9:22am

jamie124 wrote: »

ADVANTAGES:
1. Less cost on parents.
2. More equal situation in school.

Actually, more cost on parents, and easier to pick out the poor to bully.

OldNotWIse · 16-04-2015 9:26am

Why not advocate for them to be made more comfortable? (Although I never remember mine being uncomfortable anyway). If I had school-going kids, I would definitely prefer a uniform system. I remember even when we had so called "colour days" at school, when we'd wear whatever we want and make a donation to charity and it was a feckin huge production to make sure you were wearing something cool and fashionable and try to keep up with your peers (as is common at that age). Imagine having that every day? Not fair on child or parent IMO.

The only part of them I disagree with is the monopoly some schools seem to have. Ours had to be bought in Arnotts and the crested jumper was an extortionate price. This I don't agree with. Should be able to buy generics and sew crest on.

Sunny Dayz · 16-04-2015 10:23am

What's worse than wearing a school uniform is a school which has changed the uniform 3 times since my son started (he's in 4th class). It was an O'Neill track bottoms and hoody in a warm material, took ages to dry after the wash, with school crest and yellow polo shirt with crest. That was in his first year. They then changed it to another O'Neills tracksuit, this time light material which in fairness was much easier to wash and dry and better wearing, again with crest and kept yellow polo shirt.

2 years ago in order to reduce costs to parents, they decided to scrap this again, navy jumper with school crest (not cheap either!) white polo shirt (on kids!!) and plain navy bottoms, with option for child to wear plain navy jumper so the whole uniform could be bought in Dunnes, Tesco etc. However with so many changes to uniform the classrooms are a jumble of different styles of tops and coloured polo shirts.

bjork · 16-04-2015 10:39am

I'm in 2 minds about this: On one hand it fosters pride and a sense of belonging in students but this statement from what I believe to be a student blew my mind

Cr4pSnip3r wrote: »

I'm actually attending secondary school as a 6th year student at the moment. I support a school uniform. I've made a fair few friends off the back of my personality, I've had no issue being me, I've felt no deep sadness in the morning because I couldn't pick a red jumper instead of my usual navy. It helps create an atmosphere of seriousness, it separates school from home. Everytime we've had a no uniform day it has brought the ease and lack of focus that being at home and relaxing can bring. I find I study best in school and in my uniform, and second best anywhere else with my uniform still on.

The big I bolded. Are we trying to separate school and home so much? Does learning only occur in school and then stops once you're free.?
Learning (School) means serious, learning stops and fun starts. Is this the mentality of a lot of students?
This post alone has convinced me that uniforms are doing more harm that good

Cr4pSnip3r · 16-04-2015 11:56am

bjork wrote: »

I'm in 2 minds about this: On one hand it fosters pride and a sense of belonging in students but this statement from what I believe to be a student blew my mind

The big I bolded. Are we trying to separate school and home so much? Does learning only occur in school and then stops once you're free.?
Learning (School) means serious, learning stops and fun starts. Is this the mentality of a lot of students?
This post alone has convinced me that uniforms are doing more harm that good

What?

bjork · 16-04-2015 12:11pm

Cr4pSnip3r wrote: »

I'm actually attending secondary school as a 6th year student at the moment. I support a school uniform. I've made a fair few friends off the back of my personality, I've had no issue being me, I've felt no deep sadness in the morning because I couldn't pick a red jumper instead of my usual navy. It helps create an atmosphere of seriousness, it separates school from home. Everytime we've had a no uniform day it has brought the ease and lack of focus that being at home and relaxing can bring. I find I study best in school and in my uniform, and second best anywhere else with my uniform still on.

Cr4pSnip3r wrote: »

What?

When a student puts on a uniform, they enter the mindset, 1) "now is the time for learning and I must be serious" and 2)"In my uniform I act X, out of my uniform I act like y". That raises many concerns.

Cr4pSnip3r · 16-04-2015 12:15pm

bjork wrote: »

When a student puts on a uniform, they enter the mindset, 1) "now is the time for learning and I must be serious" and 2)"In my uniform I act X, out of my uniform I act like y". That raises many concerns.

I am the same person, it just helps create the atmosphere of learning for me. I don't have my mind warped or controlled by some fabric. It's actually a good thing, in my opinion. I spend a lot of time per week doing school related work that being able to get out of the uniform and relax is great for exam related stresses etc.

bjork · 16-04-2015 12:31pm

Cr4pSnip3r wrote: »

I am the same person, it just helps create the atmosphere of learning for me. I don't have my mind warped or controlled by some fabric. It's actually a good thing, in my opinion. I spend a lot of time per week doing school related work that being able to get out of the uniform and relax is great for exam related stresses etc.

I understand what you are saying and you give an honest answer; but if you look at it from another angle

Experiences throughout your day should all have an atmosphere of learning about them.

You are young, you have not experienced a lot yet in your life (I'm basing this on your age/students generally; maybe you have had) and everything at this age should be a learning experience and an inquisitive mind would look at everything, whether at school or at home and recognize what it is they are learning from each experience. So an atmosphere of learning should not only be confined to school and an uniform may create the impression that it is.

Is home school separation a good thing or something we should be pushing against? You might say, "Well yes, I can relax, forget about school and chill out" and yes, this is something you need to be able to do and find time for as it is also vital for development. But as far as learning goes, home and school should both have the same aim, and that is give the student the vital skills and knowledge important to develop the person to reach their potential. If both units have the same aim, why try to separate them to such an extent?

Uniforms may give the impression that learning is studying for the junior/leaving cert, and teaching to the test (and therefore learning for the test) is a concern.

Cr4pSnip3r · 16-04-2015 12:43pm

bjork wrote: »

I understand what you are saying and you give an honest answer; but if you look at it from another angle

Experiences throughout your day should all have an atmosphere of learning about them.

You are young, you have not experienced a lot yet in your life (I'm basing this on your age/students generally; maybe you have had) and everything at this age should be a learning experience and an inquisitive mind would look at everything, whether at school or at home and recognize what it is they are learning from each experience. So an atmosphere of learning should not only be confined to school and an uniform may create the impression that it is.

Is home school separation a good thing or something we should be pushing against? You might say, "Well yes, I can relax, forget about school and chill out" and yes, this is something you need to be able to do and find time for as it is also vital for development. But as far as learning goes, home and school should both have the same aim, and that is give the student the vital skills and knowledge important to develop the person to reach their potential. If both units have the same aim, why try to separate them to such an extent?

Uniforms may give the impression that learning is studying for the junior/leaving cert, and teaching to the test (and therefore learning for the test) is a concern.

I suppose it's important to separate it, then. I do learn in my spare time, technically. I look things up, I read about world events etc.

School learning is very different. The Leaving Certificate is an exam focused course. We can all pretend it isn't (I'm not saying you are) but it is. I'm doing it right now and focusing on the exam and the questions and predictions etc. gets people higher grades.

What I learn in my spare time I enjoy, or find useful. A lot of what I learn in school is not enjoyable and is commonly useless to me, even if it helps "expands my mind".

The uniform helps me focus on doing the work I don't enjoy and don't find useful. Because that's what it is, work. The stuff I learn when I'm not in my uniform and in school is usually the stuff I enjoy.

So the uniform helps separate two things, education that is work, and education that would be work was it not so interesting and fun.

Should we reform education and remove uniforms, to bring the two together? Maybe, maybe. As it stands, however, they are different things and require me to enter two different mindsets. Was I to have a job, I'd dress more professionally for it then I would dress on the weekends for, say, my rock climbing lessons.

Dr Crippen · 16-04-2015 12:57pm

jamie124 wrote: »

Hi There,
So i said I would just start a thread to something I am so curious about which is School Uniforms , I mean come on , Yes there are advantages but many many Disadvantages.
ADVANTAGES:
1. Less cost on parents.

Your point above doesn't equate, in fact it costs the parents more. Students wont want to go to school deshevled and therefore more pressure on parents to buy the newest or latest clothing

bjork · 16-04-2015 1:11pm

Cr4pSnip3r wrote: »

.................. As it stands, however, they are different things and require me to enter two different mindsets. ..............

I agree with what you are saying and ironically you are backing up most of my points.

I just wanted to highlight this because I think it's a very true and very important statement and is the way many/most? students in Ireland think

Cr4pSnip3r · 16-04-2015 1:19pm

bjork wrote: »

I agree with what you are saying and ironically you are backing up most of my points.

I just wanted to highlight this because I think it's a very true and very important statement and is the way many/most? students in Ireland think

Am I? I don't even know, discussing things on the internet is something I find hard to do at times. I much prefer in person.

They are different, though. I believe you were saying that it is bad for students to separate the mindsets of school and home life, as it makes them believe learning stops at school. I was just trying to say that it separates two different types of learning for me. Maybe if secondary school was not as restrictive overall we'd not need uniforms but the kind of heavy rules usually present in schools make normal clothing inappropriate, I do think. Maybe if we made at least the Leaving Certificate more open and akin to university/college life then we'd have a different scenario?

I'm not a rigid board, of course, I'm open to change

16-04-2015 1:20pm

I'm sorry bjork, but while some students can meld the work/life balance in the ways you're suggesting, for the rest of us...

School is a workplace. A job. The kiddie version of a place where we have to go to better ourselves. Whether we want to go or not, there is no choice in the matter. We go, or we suffer for not going. Jobs for adults better them by money. Jobs for children better them by knowledge.

Some people get to do jobs they enjoy, so much so they'd do them for free if they didn't need to put food on the table. But most of us get by in roles we're ok with, that meet our needs, but are not happy places for us to be.

Schools are our first contact with many of the bureaucratic practices which we all deal with as adults. Uniforms are part of that. SOme roles in life require a certain dress code, and the skills in personal management in keeping a school uniform stand well to those who have safety gear, business suits, or military uniforms to upkeep. They also serve the purpose of keeping kids in schools. A kid in a uniform outside school during school hours would be far more noticeable than a young person, who could be a young looking 20 year old, walking about & wasting his/her time away.

Schools are places of work. What you learn during work, and outside of work, is up to you.

Isn't it time for school uniforms to be scrapped at this stage???

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