Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

beveragelady · 13-08-2015 8:22pm #1

I called An Post today to try to sort out a problem with deliveries. The customer service chap was very helpful and I think it all got sorted.
The thing is, I tried to give him my Eircode because I live at a vague rural address but he said that they're not using them because the system isn't set up.
Amazed!
It's bad enough that they're no good to users of satnavs or google maps, but this is just astonishing. Can anybody explain how this could have been launched to such fanfare when it's all but meaningless?

NIMAN · 13-08-2015 8:27pm

It does seem a bit pointless if the postal service aren't using it. Or satnavs.

There's an advert on RTE radio for eircode at the minute, about a mum trying to get her daughter to a friend's house for a birthday party, and says you should the eircode instead of vague directions.

Thing is, how exactly do we use am Europe should a friend give it to you to get to their house?

NIMAN · 13-08-2015 8:27pm

It does seem a bit pointless if the postal service aren't using it. Or satnavs.

There's an advert on RTE radio for eircode at the minute, about a mum trying to get her daughter to a friend's house for a birthday party, and says you should the eircode instead of vague directions.

Thing is, how exactly do we use am Europe should a friend give it to you to get to their house?

Into The Blue · 13-08-2015 8:29pm

The one with the aul lad giving directions is fairly on the ball in fairness.. Pity eircode would be no better!

blade1 · 13-08-2015 8:31pm

Call in to your local sorting office instead of ringing customer service.
Or have you tried asking your postman about it?

beveragelady · 13-08-2015 8:59pm

blade1 wrote: »

Call in to your local sorting office instead of ringing customer service.
Or have you tried asking your postman about it?

It's sorted out now, it was definitely a customer service issue. I hardly ever see the postman, the postbox is a bit away from the house.

View · 13-08-2015 9:06pm

To ask the obvious question, why should they use it?

An Post did not want it, the current system works for them due to their extensive network. It is other companies who benefit from it as they can use it to make deliveries in parallel to and faster than An Post.

So, if An Post just turn a blind eye to Eircode - an optional addressing part - it might wither on the vine, leaving them with the old no post code system which would suit them.

It is only if a Post Code is mandatory for all deliveries and address that all must use it.

Since we have never manage to even standardise our (non post code) addressing system, much less make such a system mandatory, there is fat chance of our new Eircode being made mandatory.

murphaph · 13-08-2015 9:46pm

The thing is (and I believe Eircode is a sub optimal solution and could have been fairly easily improved upon) we have the state creating Eircodes and An Post is a state company. An Post should just be told to use Eircodes and that should be the end of it. I am amazed the world regards us so highly when we have postcodes that aren't used by the post office. I won't say "only in Ireland" because there are probably some banana republics in Africa that have the same problem.

TheChizler · 13-08-2015 9:49pm

Give them more than a few weeks to have it 100% implemented, national infrastructure projects can take years to fully roll out.

Edit: Article's a year old but they have integrated it into their systems, these things take time though to enable fully.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/new-irish-postcodes-to-be-sent-to-2-2m-households-in-spring-2015-1.1776841

Bray Head · 14-08-2015 7:14am

I wouldn't read much into an experience of one person with one employee of an organisation that employs thousands.

People have posted letters with only the eircode written on it and An Post have delivere. This proves that the organisation can and indeed will use eircode.

My own view is that the eircode system is of some use to An Post. It is of much more use to utilities and government agencies, and to couriers who do occasional deliveries to rural areas and so lack the knowledge that An Post staff have from daily rounds.

AngryLips · 14-08-2015 8:44am

I thought eircodes were pretty useless to ...until I tried to order a taxi in a rural area

Dave_Dublin · 17-08-2015 12:31pm

Bray Head wrote: »

People have posted letters with only the eircode written on it and An Post have delivere. This proves that the organisation can and indeed will use eircode.

I'm having a problem with deliveries since the Eircodes were introduced.

I added the Eircode to my address instead of "Dublin 7" since the code starts "D07" and I've been waited nearly 4 weeks for something that should've been here in 4 days!

The order was in 4 identical boxes with the same exact address on each in the same position on each box.

Box #1 arrived in 4 days; box #2 arrived the following day but box #3 took THREE WEEKS to arrive and when it did, it had
"IMPORTANT : Delay caused by incorrect postal address" labels all over it -- one would've sufficed.

The final box has still not arrived.

I contacted An Post via their website on Wednesday last but I have not yet received a response.

My address is in the format :

XXX Road Name
Dublin
D07 XXXX

--- Previously it would've been always :

XXX Road Name
Dublin 7

TheChizler · 17-08-2015 12:43pm

That suggests poor integration at this stage all right, might be worth sending a complaint to An Post.

Sam Russell · 17-08-2015 1:43pm

Or to Eircode.

TheChizler · 17-08-2015 2:09pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Or to Eircode.

They can't force An Post to speed up integration though.

threeiron · 17-08-2015 2:28pm

Dave_Dublin wrote: »

My address is in the format :

XXX Road Name
Dublin
D07 XXXX

--- Previously it would've been always :

XXX Road Name
Dublin 7

You should use:

XXX Road Name
Dublin 7
D07 XXXX

mackerski · 17-08-2015 2:39pm

threeiron wrote: »

[/SIZE]

You should use:

XXX Road Name
Dublin 7
D07 XXXX

No, An Post should be able to pick up on the D07 in the postal code. Irish addresses are already long enough. Postal codes supersede postal districts, it would be nuts to maintain both.

threeiron · 17-08-2015 7:48pm

mackerski wrote: »

No, An Post should be able to pick up on the D07 in the postal code. Irish addresses are already long enough. Postal codes supersede postal districts, it would be nuts to maintain both.

Postal districts only exist in Dublin and they are being retained e.g. Dublin 4.

Why do you think the parcels were delayed? Could it be because the address did not say Dublin 7?

An Post software is reading the text address as one item of information and giving preference to it. Hence Dublin on its own prevented their sorting software from working normally. An Post are reading Eircodes as a separate address item.

I am in sure in time many persons will drop the Dublin 7 but not yet if you want your post delivered on time.

AngryLips · 17-08-2015 9:37pm

threeiron wrote: »

Postal districts only exist in Dublin and they are being retained e.g. Dublin 4.

Why do you think the parcels were delayed? Could it be because the address did not say Dublin 7?

So what you're saying is that we now have two postcodes?!

Sam Russell · 17-08-2015 9:43pm

Yes, one designed for An Post and one used by An Post.

SPDUB · 17-08-2015 10:20pm

threeiron wrote: »

Why do you think the parcels were delayed? Could it be because the address did not say Dublin 7?

An Post software is reading the text address as one item of information and giving preference to it. Hence Dublin on its own prevented their sorting software from working normally. An Post are reading Eircodes as a separate address item.

Most parcels are still handsorted so software probably has nothing to do with it.

threeiron · 17-08-2015 11:23pm

AngryLips wrote: »

So what you're saying is that we now have two postcodes?!

In Dublin you have postal districts and now you also have postcodes.

SPDUB wrote: »

Most parcels are still handsorted so software probably has nothing to do with it.

probably? We don't know whether these were put through the automatic sorting process but if they were then Dublin on its own is unlikely to pass through unless the road name was unique. Without knowing the actual address on the parcel, we are just speculating and hence I am applying logic to my speculation.

AngryLips · 18-08-2015 10:50am

threeiron wrote: »

In Dublin you have postal districts and now you also have postcodes

Then why incorporate the postal districts into the postcode? Postcodes have replaced the postal districts.

mackerski · 18-08-2015 3:25pm

Let me try this again...

threeiron wrote: »

Postal districts only exist in Dublin and they are being retained e.g. Dublin 4.

Thank you, I know what a postal district is. It's clear that they remain a viable unit against which An Post can plan deliveries. So I think we are agreed that the districts will continue to "exist". But I dispute that they should have to be flagged twice in every Dublin address label...

threeiron wrote: »

Why do you think the parcels were delayed? Could it be because the address did not say Dublin 7?

If I were a betting man, I'd bet that this was the reason. But I'm making some claims that to me are unrelated to whether or not this is so:

1. That the D07 at the beginning of the postal code asserts the postal district in a sufficiently unambiguous manner that there should be no requirement for a separate articulation in the form of an address line reading "Dublin 7".

2. That the best path to adoption of the postal code is to encourage the public to consider it as an extension of the postal district whose importance they already understand. Not as a separate unrelated item.

3. That the last time a postal service added postal codes to a system that had, in larger towns and cities, used postal districts previously (the UK, from which we inherited the Dublin postal districts), postal codes replaced postal districts instead of augmenting them.

4. That lots of the places in the world that expect you to enter your postal city (airline booking sites most prominently) reject numbers but do have a field for a postal code, so there is a great freedom from being able to discard the district number from the city field.

5. That there is, quite literally, a whole world full of people who don't expect to have to address a letter "Dublin 7, D07 ABCD" (and therefore probably won't) but who are well used to addressing one "Dublin, D07 ABCD".

6. That An Post has had plenty of time to adjust their address scanners to handle gracefully the case where one address line reads "Dublin" and another contains a 7-digit code beginning Dnn or D6W. So there's no real excuse for failing to sort addresses expressed in this (as I've outlined above) extremely reasonable and predictable format.

threeiron wrote: »

An Post software is reading the text address as one item of information and giving preference to it. Hence Dublin on its own prevented their sorting software from working normally. An Post are reading Eircodes as a separate address item.

Unless you have insider knowledge, you can't know this (though I tend to agree with your assumption). What I'm saying is that this is daft behaviour that they have to fix soon.

threeiron wrote: »

I am in sure in time many persons will drop the Dublin 7 but not yet if you want your post delivered on time.

Notwithstanding that the official addresses we are seeing in the postal code finder do retain the Dublin nn format, It's a bad thing and needs to be whacked ASAP.

threeiron · 18-08-2015 11:48pm

Here's what Liam O'Sullivan said at the Oireachtas last November:

One of the principal tenets set by the Department in selecting a code is that people should not have to change their current address. This is related to the Chairman's point about sense of place and attachment to place. The Dublin postal districts are viewed by residents living in those areas as part of their current addresses. To attempt to change or remove Dublin 4 would be the equivalent of taking away the name of a town for people who live in provincial Ireland. It does no violence to people's current addresses and it is carried into the code as designed.

He also talked about how they will use Eircodes both in their automatic and manual sorting. The Oireachtas meetings were thoroughly discussed on Boards at the time.

Bayberry · 19-08-2015 8:06pm

threeiron wrote: »

Here's what Liam O'Sullivan said at the Oireachtas last November:

One of the principal tenets set by the Department in selecting a code is that people should not have to change their current address. This is related to the Chairman's point about sense of place and attachment to place.

Unless they live in Clare or Roscommon or Kilkenny or dozens of towns around the country, in which case their addresses won't be be changed, they'll just be informed that they've been using the wrong address all along!

He also talked about how they will use Eircodes both in their automatic and manual sorting. The Oireachtas meetings were thoroughly discussed on Boards at the time.

He told the committee what they wanted to hear. Nobody is going to bother their arse asking him to come back and account for the fact that An Post haven't actually implemented any of this (and no, An Post didn't have to wait for eircodes to be delivered tp end users before reconfiguring their systems to use eircodes) and either commit to a date for full implementation, or just admit that An Post aren't really bothered either way, because eircode doesn't actually deliver any real benefit to An Post.

TheChizler · 19-08-2015 8:50pm

Bayberry wrote: »

and no, An Post didn't have to wait for eircodes to be delivered tp end users before reconfiguring their systems to use eircodes)

Unless they had to wait till the 12th if Eircode are treating them the same as any other customer.

Bayberry · 19-08-2015 9:43pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Unless they had to wait till the 12th if Eircode are treating them the same as any other customer.

Seriously? You're not in the least bit perturbed by the apparent fact that something that is being sold to the public as a postcode was delivered to the public by the postal service, but that the postal service wasn't given access to the database in time to facilitate the use of this supposed post code?

The words pissup and brewery come to mind.

TheChizler · 20-08-2015 12:21am

Bayberry wrote: »

Seriously? You're not in the least bit perturbed by the apparent fact that something that is being sold to the public as a postcode was delivered to the public by the postal service, but that the postal service wasn't given access to the database in time to facilitate the use of this supposed post code?

The words pissup and brewery come to mind.

Not at all. Could be that it gives them a chance to fix errors by applying individual's feedback to the database. Also I feel companies would be hesitant to purchase the database unless the government were totally committed to rollout, and posting out codes would be the point of no return. I'd be slow to pour money into supporting something that nobody was using, or could use, yet.

Poulgorm · 05-10-2015 7:17pm

I spoke to my local postman yesterday morning - I live in a rural area - no house number or house name. He says that the new Eircodes are not used by them - they have no device in the van to use them. And he is not aware of any plans by An Post to install such equipment.

I only raised the question with him, because I discovered that a letter, intended for my daughter, was returned to sender by An Post. The problem arose because the postman was not aware of her new surname - just recently married. I asked the postman if the address had the Eircode on it, would the letter have been delivered. No, he replied, it would not have been delivered - the Eircode makes no difference.

I know this postman well, over the years and he is a very conscientious lad - always goes the extra mile to be helpful.

The problem described above is the exact issue that the Eircode was meant to solve. Or so they told us at the time of its introduction.

If delivery companies are refusing to use the Eircode, then there must a problem with some aspect of the codes - clearly, the delivery companies have looked at the possibility of using them and have decided that the advantages do NOT outweigh the disadvantages.

Some civil servant will get a promotion out of this yet.

Dave_Dublin · 05-10-2015 8:02pm

Dave_Dublin wrote: »

I'm having a problem with deliveries since the Eircodes were introduced.

I added the Eircode to my address instead of "Dublin 7" since the code starts "D07" and I've been waited nearly 4 weeks for something that should've been here in 4 days!

The order was in 4 identical boxes with the same exact address on each in the same position on each box.

Box #1 arrived in 4 days; box #2 arrived the following day but box #3 took THREE WEEKS to arrive and when it did, it had
"IMPORTANT : Delay caused by incorrect postal address" labels all over it -- one would've sufficed.

The final box has still not arrived.

I contacted An Post via their website on Wednesday last but I have not yet received a response.

My address is in the format :

XXX Road Name
Dublin
D07 XXXX

--- Previously it would've been always :

XXX Road Name
Dublin 7

UPDATE :

My final box did arrive but it was 7 WEEKS after the dispatch date.

An Post did answer me by email and wanted photos of the boxes and a copy of the order form and proof of postage from the sender.
I provided all and they said they would "look into this matter" -- I haven't heard from them since...

I dealt with THREE different people by email and ALL THREE have the following as the footer in the emails:

(Name), Customer Services, An Post, Ground Floor, GPO, D01 F5P2, Ireland

--- NO "Dublin 1" or even "Dublin" as part of THEIR address!

salmocab · 05-10-2015 8:14pm

I recently worked in a sorting office and the mail is basically sorted into racks with every address on the route by hand. So if your address is 123 fake street it goes into a slot marked as that and it would be between 121 and 125 so the postie takes them all out and they are in the right order for him, so the post code would be of zero use to him as all he could read would be the first 3 digits that would just denote his sorting office anyway. The mail centers that use computer scanning can already read the address so don't need a new system that would just cost a fortune to get them to exactly where they are now.

Carawaystick · 06-10-2015 11:22am

salmocab wrote: »

The mail centers that use computer scanning can already read the address so don't need a new system that would just cost a fortune to get them to exactly where they are now.

How do the scanners work when there's a letter for John Byrne, Ballybeg, Ballymore, county somewhere
and a letter for Jim Byrne, Ballybeg, Ballymore, county somewhere?

Irish Steve · 06-10-2015 3:45pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

How do the scanners work when there's a letter for John Byrne, Ballybeg, Ballymore, county somewhere
and a letter for Jim Byrne, Ballybeg, Ballymore, county somewhere?

We don't have the full details of how the An Post systems store the database, I'd be prepared to hazard a guess that if they get a new address for an area, it captures it, and does a "best guess" on the basis of the area, which may well not work as well as intended. The other possibility is that they have a feedback system from the local offices that uses that "local knowledge" which is pretty much unique to An Post, so their database gets updated with the Ancode (for lack of a better name for it) once they have worked out where the item is actually being delivered to.

It was always the case that An Post said they didn't need Eircode for their operation, and given the length of time it took to initially get the sorting system up and running (a close friend of ours was one of the main technicians on the project) I suspect that AnCode is a lot more complex than was first intended, if it was to be fit for purpose.

salmocab · 06-10-2015 8:40pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

How do the scanners work when there's a letter for John Byrne, Ballybeg, Ballymore, county somewhere
and a letter for Jim Byrne, Ballybeg, Ballymore, county somewhere?

I think basically the machine sends it to ballymore sort office and the postie uses local knowledge. I'm sure its not a perfect system but I suspect neither is eircode.

Banjoxed · 07-10-2015 7:38am

Good ole Ireland. There'll always be someone defending the old ways in the face of change.

franer1970 · 07-10-2015 8:20am

NIMAN wrote: »

It does seem a bit pointless if the postal service aren't using it. Or satnavs.

There's an advert on RTE radio for eircode at the minute, about a mum trying to get her daughter to a friend's house for a birthday party, and says you should the eircode instead of vague directions.

Thing is, how exactly do we use an Eircode should a friend give it to you to get to their house?

Enter the Eircode on the Eircode Finder website https://finder.eircode.ie/#/ and it will show you the location on a map. Find that location on your sat nav or phone with Google Maps / Apple Maps and select it as your destination. Not a pain in the butt at all.

hans aus dtschl · 07-10-2015 11:48am

Not sure if that's sarcasm, franer.

I can confirm that rural posties rely on local knowledge. We frequently get other people's post and vice versa when a new postie does the route and it takes them a couple of weeks to "settle down".

There's nothing wrong with the idea of a post code, just that it'd have been better if it was more legible/guessable. I can't imagine the uptake from our rural area will happen very quickly precisely because it's a string of deliberately obfuscated integers and characters.

Sam Russell · 07-10-2015 11:55am

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with the idea of a post code, just that it'd have been better if it was more legible/guessable. I can't imagine the uptake from our rural area will happen very quickly precisely because it's a string of deliberately obfuscated integers and characters.

Was it An Post who asked for it to be so difficult to guess and remember or was that coming from some other source? I suspect An Post did not want to give an even break to their competition, and so cludged the design in this way.

TheChizler · 07-10-2015 12:43pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Was it An Post who asked for it to be so difficult to guess and remember or was that coming from some other source? I suspect An Post did not want to give an even break to their competition, and so cludged the design in this way.

Their competition won't by cycling door to door relying on local knowledge, they'll have handheld devices to which the structure of a code won't matter.

salmocab · 07-10-2015 7:49pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Was it An Post who asked for it to be so difficult to guess and remember or was that coming from some other source? I suspect An Post did not want to give an even break to their competition, and so cludged the design in this way.

An Post had nothing to do with it at all. They said from the outset they wouldn't be using it as it was of no real value to them. It was the company that was chosen to develop it that made it impossible to guess which house the last 4 digits mean as that way you need to use their database and they can monetize it.

TheChizler · 07-10-2015 9:50pm

salmocab wrote: »

An Post had nothing to do with it at all. They said from the outset they wouldn't be using it as it was of no real value to them. It was the company that was chosen to develop it that made it impossible to guess which house the last 4 digits mean as that way you need to use their database and they can monetize it.

A sequential string though would essentially be an abbreviated form of the postal address, and apart from being unique, would have little value as a code.

Sam Russell · 07-10-2015 10:42pm

salmocab wrote: »

An Post had nothing to do with it at all. They said from the outset they wouldn't be using it as it was of no real value to them. It was the company that was chosen to develop it that made it impossible to guess which house the last 4 digits mean as that way you need to use their database and they can monetize it.

I have always assumed making a revenue stream from the code was item one on the design brief. However An Post got a whack of loot from licencing the Geodirectory so I assume that maybe they got to say something about its use.

FortySeven · 07-10-2015 10:51pm

I always just assumed they wouldn't use it to protect their jobs due to the need for local knowledge. Can't have any old tom, dick or seamus coming along delivering mail. They might be able to do it cheaper.

But then again, I am a cynical bar steward.

Nichard Dixon · 08-10-2015 12:00am

FortySeven wrote: »

I always just assumed they wouldn't use it to protect their jobs due to the need for local knowledge. Can't have any old tom, dick or seamus coming along delivering mail. They might be able to do it cheaper.

An Post have one of the cheaper stamps in Europe. Most likely Tom, Dick or Seamus would deliver the handy mail only, leaving the hard stuff to An Post and driving up the cost of this stamp.

FortySeven · 08-10-2015 12:13am

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

An Post have one of the cheaper stamps in Europe. Most likely Tom, Dick or Seamus would deliver the handy mail only, leaving the hard stuff to An Post and driving up the cost of this stamp.

Didn't mean it that way. Meant as workers within anpost. It's a great opportunity to break unions. Take away specialist knowledge.

Bray Head · 08-10-2015 8:45am

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

An Post have one of the cheaper stamps in Europe. Most likely Tom, Dick or Seamus would deliver the handy mail only, leaving the hard stuff to An Post and driving up the cost of this stamp.

Anyone can in theory enter the postal market but they would have to adhere to the relevant EU directive which says:

The universal service guarantees, in principle, one clearance and one delivery to the home or premises of every natural or legal person every working day, even in remote or sparsely populated areas.

No one would undertake this kind of investment. Eircodes would make it slightly easier but not by much.

AFAIK (and I'm open to correction) every European country still has only one monopoly provider of next-day postal services.

Use of eircodes should make entry to the parcel market a lot easier however as drivers will not require local knowledge.

jesseps · 08-10-2015 10:28am

So how does one order stuff or get stuff sent to Ireland from abroad, seeing for me I gave people out my address in a North American format?

FIRST NAME LAST NAME
NUMBER STREET NAME
APARTMENT NUMBER
CITY/TOWN (PHIBSBOROUGH or DUBLIN) PROVINCE (LEINSTER) POSTAL CODE (DUBLIN 7 or D07 W---)
COUNTRY

I can only hope An Post, UPS, FedEX and others can figure it out.

Macy0161 · 08-10-2015 10:37am

FortySeven wrote: »

I always just assumed they wouldn't use it to protect their jobs due to the need for local knowledge. Can't have any old tom, dick or seamus coming along delivering mail. They might be able to do it cheaper.

But then again, I am a cynical bar steward.

iirc postcodes was announced after An Post had invested in address reading automatic sorters. This was the main reason An Post weren't in favour. Given the carry on last week, and the threat of a lock out, I doubt staff concerns were in the managements thinking!

For what it's worth, anything I've got since eircode from couriers seems to be coming through without the usual phone calls for directions. Could be coincidental, but that's my anecdotal evidence anyway.

hans aus dtschl · 08-10-2015 4:24pm

So it seems all are in agreement, that the benefit of randomization was a way to lock people out of using the system gratis. It had an undesirable knock-on effect of causing slower uptake.

A quick google of the UK system shows that they were bound by the 2000 mail act:
The owner for the time being of the Postcode Address File shall—
(a)maintain the File, and
(b)make the File available to any person who wishes to use it on such terms as are reasonable
Though they currently seem to allow free lookup, it looks like they're not bound by law to do so.

So on to the next question: in this age of smart devices and fast global transit, how practical is it really to hope for the monetization of post codes? Surely it's close enough to being obsolete?

TheChizler · 09-10-2015 11:38am

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

So it seems all are in agreement, that the benefit of randomization was a way to lock people out of using the system gratis.

It might be a factor in discouraging people from using the database for free, but I doubt it was the primary motivation if that's what you're suggesting, there are other benefits of non sequential codes (I'm reluctant to say random because it's not truly random, maybe the first code allocated per area is truly random but the rest certainly aren't) that allow it to satisfy the tender requirements.

Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

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