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Does Anyone Find This 19th Century Style Count a Tad Embarrassing?

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Comments

  • #52
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    I didn't think electronic voting meant actually voting electronically.
    Surely we could have filled out the vote sheets as we did this time ,but computers read the papers just like mail centres sort out postal envelopes ?


  • #53
    Donal Og O Baelach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 534 ✭✭✭Donal Og O Baelach


    MonkeyDoo wrote: »

    Or the 18year old putting super glue on a button, with an old man left with a stuck finger with everyone there to see who he voted for..

    Simpsonesqe

    and thats a compliment


  • #54
    dunworth1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,342 ✭✭✭dunworth1


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    I didn't think electronic voting meant actually voting electronically.
    Surely we could have filled out the vote sheets as we did this time ,but computers read the papers just like mail centres sort out postal envelopes ?

    but wouldnt that be a huge waste of money to buy a machine to do that and in only be used every 5 years


  • #55
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    dunworth1 wrote: »
    but wouldnt that be a huge waste of money to buy a machine to do that and in only be used every 5 years

    Recognition stuff like that can be used for all sorts of things ,which I don't really care to talk about now:)


  • #56
    lauren12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 66 ✭✭lauren12


    MonkeyDoo wrote: »
    Why? To impress people on SKY/CNN with 'modern' gadgetary?

    I don't want to be pressing buttons that snot infected voters have touched!

    What's there to stop people putting a big snot over a particular politicians button!

    Or an email going around on election day saying supporters will put a poison like sarin on all the FF buttons.

    Or the 18year old putting super glue on a button, with an old man left with a stuck finger with everyone there to see who he voted for..

    Cop on man this is Ireland...were a bunch of messers!

    Paper and pencil is most secure! Electronic is crap idea!

    Oh very good points. Plus there is a certain paranoia with electronics and gadgetery and hacking and all that for some. Where as the paper and pencil is the safe bet.


  • #57
    MonkeyDoo
    Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭MonkeyDoo


    Donal Og O Baelach wrote: »
    Only beacuse it is a pre-requisite for a system where all legislative changes can be democratic and available to a refurendum of the people. as it is- we have a democratic vote once evry 5 yrs - then go back to sleep!! At the mo, reffurndums cost a fortune, I think we should prepare to learn to vote for evrything by the touch of a button.

    Are you saying populations vote for every political issue with button? Would be a disaster!
    Push button politics would lead to citizens becoming bureaucrats, defering their moral obligations to the organised system behind the computer. Once that push button system was in place, the system would in effect control the decision making of the people not the other way around...over time would get questions like this...
    eg.
    a) 10% Tax Cut and Kill all Cats
    b) 10% Tax Rise and Kill all Dogs
    c) 50% Tax Cut ban introduce 1 child policy
    d) Abolish PRSI and Euthanise at citizens at 70

    Very dangerous....let's not prepare for button pushing politics....dodgy salesmen always try and create a sense of urgency in the customer!

    I like to observe our politics warts and all!


  • #58
    swampgas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,580 ✭✭✭swampgas


    blubloblu wrote: »
    Have you seen this? http://blog.ted.com/2010/11/02/e-voting-without-fraud-david-bismark-on-ted-com/

    Yep, I've seen that before. However I see problems with requiring every single voter to understand cryptography in order for them to understand (and therefore trust) the system.

    I think SideysGhost nailed this over on Politics.ie, where this was discussed last year (http://www.politics.ie/elections/130022-worlds-most-secure-voting-machines-hacked.html):
    [...] why take a simple, reliable, tamper-proof, idiot-proof, cheap, well-known, well-trusted and long-standing solution.....and replace it with a complex opaque costly hi-tech "solution" with multiple potential points of failure, massive ongoing maintenance and storage costs, and serious questions over whether it works at all, or if it works whether the results are accurate and have not been tampered with?


  • #59
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Laois_Man wrote: »
    I like the drama of the drawn out manual count. But looking at news of this count flash up on CNN earlier this evening, I did cringe a bit. Every other developed country can call a definite result within hours of the polls closing and we'll probably have some re-counts still going on next Monday.

    I know the first past the post system that most country's have is a lot easier to count. But what ever was so complicated about getting those e-voting machines to work properly?

    Yes we do have a Proportional Representation single transferable vote multi seat constituencies whereas most other countries have first past the post single seat constituencies.

    The fact that those e-voting machines were very poorly designed, with no proof or proper audit trail means that they are not exactly good for true visible democracy.
    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    I thought we were computerised with this stuff already ,smart economy and all that.

    Poorly designed unverifiable results was not a good idea.
    BTW where have you been for the last 9 years when the failure of e-voting has been a common gripe against bertie and the boys?

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • #60
    astrofool
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,906 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    PeterIanStaker wrote: »
    No its better than some electronic system. You can't hack into pencil & paper.

    k0534502.jpg


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  • #61
    maringo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 959 ✭✭✭maringo


    Whats embarrassing about seeing democracy in action? :confused:


  • #62
    Lucifer_666
    Registered Users Posts: 37 ✭Lucifer_666


    Did I hear properly and that some constituencies may end going to court to get their results :eek::eek: and this is democracy? this is the great Irish electoral system that's better than other countries like the Uk?....it's a laughing stock!


  • #63
    friendface
    Registered Users Posts: 812 ✭✭✭friendface


    This thread deserves a poll.

    Send your responses to:

    The Ballot Box
    c/o Boards.ie
    The Internet
    Ireland


    Results will be counted and broadcast within the week.


  • #64
    Respublica
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭Respublica


    I know the first past the post system that most country's have is a lot easier to count.
    Yes we do have a Proportional Representation single transferable vote multi seat constituencies whereas most other countries have first past the post single seat constituencies.

    This is not correct. Most democratic nations have moved away from the plurality system (aka FPTP) and use some form or other of proportional representation.

    It is only really common in former British colonies. Although admittedly the plurality system remains in use in two extremely populous nations: India and the U.S.


  • #65
    RetroBate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 89 ✭✭RetroBate


    Laois_Man wrote: »
    I like the drama of the drawn out manual count. But looking at news of this count flash up on CNN earlier this evening, I did cringe a bit.

    It's open. Nothing to cringe about.

    A bit like a Dutch person cringing over pictures of children in The Netherlands cycling to school rather than arriving in the back of a car.


  • #66
    Respublica
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭Respublica


    The main problem with lack of electronic voting is it means there is a flaw in the Proportional Representation System in the distribution of surpluses.
    This is a serious flaw. But you don't need electronic voting to fix it. In Northern Ireland and Scotland they have a hand count but a much better method of transfers. We just haven't fixed the problem due to laziness.

    There are however some further improvements to our voting system that actually would require electronic counting, such as the Meek method of transfers used in New Zealand. We would also save a lot of money by getting rid of the manual count.
    The ideal first move would be to an electronic counting system using the current paper votes where they are scanned and counted. That would also solve the anomaly where surplus votes are randomly distributed.
    I didn't think electronic voting meant actually voting electronically.
    Surely we could have filled out the vote sheets as we did this time ,but computers read the papers just like mail centres sort out postal envelopes?
    Exactly. We should use paper voting but electronic counting. Then the system would be protected from fraud by the paper trail.


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  • #67
    swampgas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,580 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Respublica wrote: »

    [...] We would also save a lot of money by getting rid of the manual count.

    [...] We should use paper voting but electronic counting. Then the system would be protected from fraud by the paper trail.

    If the paper ballots are present, what's to stop a candidate who is losing from demanding a manual verification of the ballots?

    If candidates cannot demand such a verification, then we have to trust that the optical scanners and counting hardware/software haven't been tampered with, so having the paper trail doesn't really help.

    If candidates can demand such a verification, isn't it likely that the losing candidate will always demand such, which means that we have to do the manual count anyway?


  • #68
    Respublica
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭Respublica


    If the paper ballots are present, what's to stop a candidate who is losing from demanding a manual verification of the ballots?

    If candidates cannot demand such a verification, then we have to trust that the optical scanners and counting hardware/software haven't been tampered with, so having the paper trail doesn't really help.

    If candidates can demand such a verification, isn't it likely that the losing candidate will always demand such, which means that we have to do the manual count anyway?
    The best method would be to publish the content of every ballot paper online. Then anyone who wanted to could use their own software to verify the outcome of the election. I think it should be possible for tallymen and other observers present in the count centre to confirm that what's published online is accurate.

    I'm not necessarily advocating optical scanners. What I consider most important is that the count is by computer, so that more advanced variants of PR-STV become practical.


  • #69
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    MonkeyDoo wrote: »
    Why? To impress people on SKY/CNN with 'modern' gadgetary?

    I don't want to be pressing buttons that snot infected voters have touched!

    What's there to stop people putting a big snot over a particular politicians button!

    Or an email going around on election day saying supporters will put a poison like sarin on all the FF buttons.

    Or the 18year old putting super glue on a button, with an old man left with a stuck finger with everyone there to see who he voted for..

    Cop on man this is Ireland...were a bunch of messers!

    Paper and pencil is most secure! Electronic is crap idea!


    Love it!


  • #70
    Violafy
    Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭Violafy


    I've enjoyed watching/listening to it for the last two days, but any longer than that is a bit much I think. Especially this Wicklow nonsense - it'll probably be carrying over into next week! :rolleyes: It'd be perfect if everything could have been finished by tonight. It'll just be tiring during the week.


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