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Does Anyone Find This 19th Century Style Count a Tad Embarrassing?

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2

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    #32
    Laois_Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭Laois_Man


    thebman wrote: »
    you really should look up their e-voting systems they have trialled more.

    Programmers have sworn under oath that they were told to put back doors in whether lying or not, it is always a possiblity and why e-voting can't work properly IMO.

    You're saying nothing that has anything whatsoever to do with the 2000 contraversy in Florida.


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    #33
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    Laois_Man wrote: »
    You're saying nothing that has anything whatsoever to do with the 2000 contraversy in Florida.

    he is addressing the thread.


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    #34
    dermot_sheehan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭dermot_sheehan


    The main problem with lack of electronic voting is it means there is a flaw in the Proportional Representation System in the distribution of surpluses.

    Suppose a candidate receives 120% of the quota and is elected and his surpluses need to be distributed. How do you determine which of his vote would be regarded as surplus and then be distributed.

    In the current system the random 20% over the quota is selected from the paper ballots being shuffled and those voters' second preferences are chosen. That is to a certain extent why the result always changes when there is a recount.

    In an electronic system every voter's ballot's second preference can be transferred with a weighted vote. So in the above example every voters second preference would be transferred but only with 1/5th of a vote.


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    #35
    loobylou
    Registered Users Posts: 1,418 ✭✭✭loobylou


    Lapin wrote: »
    What happens to all the ballot papers after the count ?

    Are they stored away somewhere or destroyed ?

    They're stored away for 6 months and then destroyed.


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    #36
    Laois_Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭Laois_Man


    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    he is addressing the thread.

    He is quoting a specific post in the thread!


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    #37
    Lucifer_666
    Registered Users Posts: 37 ✭Lucifer_666


    I agree with you Laoisman it is embarrassing and crazy that full results can't be achieved within the day.....why aren't these places who are now shutting shop and heading home like Laois-Offaly told to work on thru the night? It's the exact same mentality as the waiting till the next day to start the initial count instead of starting immediately after the boxes closed. Absolutely bizarre stuff

    Perhaps those constituencies that are predicted to take a very long should be made to e vote


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    #38
    Laois_Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭Laois_Man


    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    There is no way to verify the software.

    1) The guy writing the software could have added a bug, or been corrupt.
    2) The verifiers could be corrupt.
    3) Showing someone source code means nothing. It may not be on the actual machine.
    4) When people talk about OCR and keeping the votes as verification then they admit that system is flawed.

    the electronic system cannot compete in terms of transparency with tallymen.

    And whats the bloody rush. The Dail does not meet for a week, or two.

    jayziz if all those people can be bought off, it's handier to buy off the tallymen!


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    #39
    MonkeyDoo
    Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭MonkeyDoo


    I like the current system it's tried and tested and works leaving an accountable paper trail

    As a software engineer I would not trust a computerised system of voting being introduced. It's just not as visible to the public, and so what if have to wait a few more hours to get results. There is alot of local people employed during the process and the money they are paid stays in the economy. Why have an international IT consultancy firm creaming profits that go abroad involved in our democratic process. I'd prefer giving the money to a local middle aged woman to count the ballots.

    The paper ballot count leads to drama and interest in politics amoungst the population. With people being about to scrutinise the process as it happens.


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    #40
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    I agree with avoiding electronic voting as long as possible. Its fraught with problems and even if it was reliable, it lacks the transparency of the hand count.

    But we also need to get the count done promptly so enough of these long breaks. Bring in another shift or something. Galway East closed down and went home at 11pm. Wtf???


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    #41
    PeterIanStaker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭PeterIanStaker


    No its better than some electronic system. You can't hack into pencil & paper.


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    #42
    questionmark?
    Registered Users Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭questionmark?


    MonkeyDoo wrote: »

    The paper ballot count leads to drama and interest in politics amoungst the population. With people being about to scrutinise the process as it happens.

    Your dead right there!


    OP stuff electronic voting this is the clearest way of voting. I love the way our votes are counted it does add to the drama and it helps to keep people interested in politics. In regards our PR system it is so much better than first past the post as is used in the UK as it gives a clearer picture of the views the electorate want represented in the Dail.


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    #43
    Donal Og O Baelach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 534 ✭✭✭Donal Og O Baelach


    Tradition is nice. But we will need to get electronic very soon.


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    #44
    doolox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭doolox


    Computers are not accessable by all the people.
    Paper and pencil and hard copy documents are.

    Until every person can program and access computer operating systems in a fluent manner and be able to monitor all those related process in an intelligent way there will be a lack of trust in electronic voting which will jeapordise the acceptance of e-voting.

    If doubt creeps into a system the elected govt will not be accepted and it could lead to civil disturbance or worse.............


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    #45
    takun
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭takun


    Donal Og O Baelach wrote: »
    Tradition is nice. But we will need to get electronic very soon.

    Why though? The current method is not broken, so why should we fix it?

    The hand count allows people with no technical skills or knowledge to follow and understand what is going on, at every step of the process It engages people, they trust it, it is open and transparent. Going electronic just cos it's modern and shiny is no reason, it would have to be as reliable, as accurate, just as transparent and just as trusted.

    The first few may be possible if not easy, but getting the same level of trust would be a whole lot harder. If the ballot is not trusted it's a very bad thing for a democracy.


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    #46
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,330 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    The ideal first move would be to an electronic counting system using the current paper votes where they are scanned and counted. That would also solve the anomaly where surplus votes are randomly distributed.


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    #47
    MonkeyDoo
    Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭MonkeyDoo


    Donal Og O Baelach wrote: »
    Tradition is nice. But we will need to get electronic very soon.

    Why? To impress people on SKY/CNN with 'modern' gadgetary?

    I don't want to be pressing buttons that snot infected voters have touched!

    What's there to stop people putting a big snot over a particular politicians button!

    Or an email going around on election day saying supporters will put a poison like sarin on all the FF buttons.

    Or the 18year old putting super glue on a button, with an old man left with a stuck finger with everyone there to see who he voted for..

    Cop on man this is Ireland...were a bunch of messers!

    Paper and pencil is most secure! Electronic is crap idea!


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    #48
    takun
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭takun


    I have to say MonkeyDoo those are all issues I'd not thought of - but .... yeah.


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    #49
    lauren12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 66 ✭✭lauren12


    Na, I think it's fine, it is embarrasing that we wasted that money on machines that didn't even work.

    It is a pity though that Irish people abroad do not get their say, I'm sure they would like to, and I'm sure there could be some way in the future, as many I'm sure intend to return, so they will be effected by decisions made now.

    All I can say is best of luck to the governement in now, and I don't mean that sarcastically. We really need them fighting fit, here's to the future...:)


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    #50
    Donal Og O Baelach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 534 ✭✭✭Donal Og O Baelach


    takun wrote: »
    Why though? The current method is not broken, so why should we fix it?

    The hand count allows people with no technical skills or knowledge to follow and understand what is going on, at every step of the process It engages people, they trust it, it is open and transparent. Going electronic just cos it's modern and shiny is no reason, it would have to be as reliable, as accurate, just as transparent and just as trusted.

    The first few may be possible if not easy, but getting the same level of trust would be a whole lot harder. If the ballot is not trusted it's a very bad thing for a democracy.

    Only beacuse it is a pre-requisite for a system where all legislative changes can be democratic and available to a refurendum of the people. as it is- we have a democratic vote once evry 5 yrs - then go back to sleep!! At the mo, reffurndums cost a fortune, I think we should prepare to learn to vote for evrything by the touch of a button.


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    #51
    dunworth1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,295 ✭✭✭dunworth1


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    I agree with avoiding electronic voting as long as possible. Its fraught with problems and even if it was reliable, it lacks the transparency of the hand count.

    But we also need to get the count done promptly so enough of these long breaks. Bring in another shift or something. Galway East closed down and went home at 11pm. Wtf???

    people are not robots they need rest


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    #52
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    I didn't think electronic voting meant actually voting electronically.
    Surely we could have filled out the vote sheets as we did this time ,but computers read the papers just like mail centres sort out postal envelopes ?


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    #53
    Donal Og O Baelach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 534 ✭✭✭Donal Og O Baelach


    MonkeyDoo wrote: »

    Or the 18year old putting super glue on a button, with an old man left with a stuck finger with everyone there to see who he voted for..

    Simpsonesqe

    and thats a compliment


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    #54
    dunworth1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,295 ✭✭✭dunworth1


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    I didn't think electronic voting meant actually voting electronically.
    Surely we could have filled out the vote sheets as we did this time ,but computers read the papers just like mail centres sort out postal envelopes ?

    but wouldnt that be a huge waste of money to buy a machine to do that and in only be used every 5 years


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    #55
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    dunworth1 wrote: »
    but wouldnt that be a huge waste of money to buy a machine to do that and in only be used every 5 years

    Recognition stuff like that can be used for all sorts of things ,which I don't really care to talk about now:)


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    #56
    lauren12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 66 ✭✭lauren12


    MonkeyDoo wrote: »
    Why? To impress people on SKY/CNN with 'modern' gadgetary?

    I don't want to be pressing buttons that snot infected voters have touched!

    What's there to stop people putting a big snot over a particular politicians button!

    Or an email going around on election day saying supporters will put a poison like sarin on all the FF buttons.

    Or the 18year old putting super glue on a button, with an old man left with a stuck finger with everyone there to see who he voted for..

    Cop on man this is Ireland...were a bunch of messers!

    Paper and pencil is most secure! Electronic is crap idea!

    Oh very good points. Plus there is a certain paranoia with electronics and gadgetery and hacking and all that for some. Where as the paper and pencil is the safe bet.


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    #57
    MonkeyDoo
    Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭MonkeyDoo


    Donal Og O Baelach wrote: »
    Only beacuse it is a pre-requisite for a system where all legislative changes can be democratic and available to a refurendum of the people. as it is- we have a democratic vote once evry 5 yrs - then go back to sleep!! At the mo, reffurndums cost a fortune, I think we should prepare to learn to vote for evrything by the touch of a button.

    Are you saying populations vote for every political issue with button? Would be a disaster!
    Push button politics would lead to citizens becoming bureaucrats, defering their moral obligations to the organised system behind the computer. Once that push button system was in place, the system would in effect control the decision making of the people not the other way around...over time would get questions like this...
    eg.
    a) 10% Tax Cut and Kill all Cats
    b) 10% Tax Rise and Kill all Dogs
    c) 50% Tax Cut ban introduce 1 child policy
    d) Abolish PRSI and Euthanise at citizens at 70

    Very dangerous....let's not prepare for button pushing politics....dodgy salesmen always try and create a sense of urgency in the customer!

    I like to observe our politics warts and all!


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    #58
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭swampgas


    blubloblu wrote: »
    Have you seen this? http://blog.ted.com/2010/11/02/e-voting-without-fraud-david-bismark-on-ted-com/

    Yep, I've seen that before. However I see problems with requiring every single voter to understand cryptography in order for them to understand (and therefore trust) the system.

    I think SideysGhost nailed this over on Politics.ie, where this was discussed last year (http://www.politics.ie/elections/130022-worlds-most-secure-voting-machines-hacked.html):
    [...] why take a simple, reliable, tamper-proof, idiot-proof, cheap, well-known, well-trusted and long-standing solution.....and replace it with a complex opaque costly hi-tech "solution" with multiple potential points of failure, massive ongoing maintenance and storage costs, and serious questions over whether it works at all, or if it works whether the results are accurate and have not been tampered with?


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    #59
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,118 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Laois_Man wrote: »
    I like the drama of the drawn out manual count. But looking at news of this count flash up on CNN earlier this evening, I did cringe a bit. Every other developed country can call a definite result within hours of the polls closing and we'll probably have some re-counts still going on next Monday.

    I know the first past the post system that most country's have is a lot easier to count. But what ever was so complicated about getting those e-voting machines to work properly?

    Yes we do have a Proportional Representation single transferable vote multi seat constituencies whereas most other countries have first past the post single seat constituencies.

    The fact that those e-voting machines were very poorly designed, with no proof or proper audit trail means that they are not exactly good for true visible democracy.
    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    I thought we were computerised with this stuff already ,smart economy and all that.

    Poorly designed unverifiable results was not a good idea.
    BTW where have you been for the last 9 years when the failure of e-voting has been a common gripe against bertie and the boys?


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    #60
    astrofool
    Registered Users Posts: 16,466 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    PeterIanStaker wrote: »
    No its better than some electronic system. You can't hack into pencil & paper.

    k0534502.jpg


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    #61
    maringo
    Registered Users Posts: 959 ✭✭✭maringo


    Whats embarrassing about seeing democracy in action? :confused:


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