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Abbotstown Velodrome?

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  • 31-07-2014 2:56pm
    #1
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,559 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭


    Following on from our last discussion on a possible new indoor velodrome, the Abbotstown proposal has taken a step forward with the announcement that it's moving to the planning stage

    Hopefully this proposal will now get a bit more momentum


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    #2
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    Ok, before I get all excited, I'm gonna get cynical and ask exactly what does this mean, "planning stage"? The design of the facility itself, then get fo ahead from An Bord Pleanála? I'm slow of thought and even slower to get all excited at this stage.


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    #3
    bcmf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭bcmf


    Planning , Objections , building will probably take a few years,


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    #4
    dave_o_brien
    Registered Users Posts: 2,275 ✭✭✭dave_o_brien


    Harrybelafonte wrote: »
    Ok, before I get all excited, I'm gonna get cynical and ask exactly what does this mean, "planning stage"? The design of the facility itself, then get fo ahead from An Bord Pleanála? I'm slow of thought and even slower to get all excited at this stage.

    The statement is that they have appointed the Engineers to proceed to Planning. They have probably already engaged them in Design Development, and I am confident, given the Engineers appointed, that the design development stage was probably pretty well organised. Tobin have experience in similar projects, so likely won't take long to produce their pack for submission.

    Thereafter, it will be subject to the usual planning procedures for its jurisdiction. I believe Abbotstown is a Strategic Development Zone, so will not be subject to objections (though the public or groups can make observations to the application which will be considered by the council), but will be required to adhere to the Area Development Plan. I'm open to correction on that... If not, it will be the usual submit, six week objection period, two weeks to make a formal decision, then open to appeal.

    The crucial periods will be:

    (a) period required to prepare a planning application. Depending on where the pack is at this stage, this could be between a week and 10 weeks. It's impossible to guess given I have absolutely no knowledge of what the status is on any of the required items.

    and (b) the tender period. Again, this one could be difficult to pin down. Typically, I'd estimate most contractors could respond within 5 weeks, but given this is public money, there could be a more aggressive negotiation period and could potentially be subject to numerous re-tenders.

    It's still a massively positive step.


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    #5
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,204 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    who are the engineers?


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    #6
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    dave_o_brien wrote: »
    The statement is that they have appointed the Engineers to proceed to Planning. They have probably already engaged them in Design Development, and I am confident, given the Engineers appointed, that the design development stage was probably pretty well organised. Tobin have experience in similar projects, so likely won't take long to produce their pack for submission.

    Thereafter, it will be subject to the usual planning procedures for its jurisdiction. I believe Abbotstown is a Strategic Development Zone, so will not be subject to objections (though the public or groups can make observations to the application which will be considered by the council), but will be required to adhere to the Area Development Plan. I'm open to correction on that... If not, it will be the usual submit, six week objection period, two weeks to make a formal decision, then open to appeal.

    The crucial periods will be:

    (a) period required to prepare a planning application. Depending on where the pack is at this stage, this could be between a week and 10 weeks. It's impossible to guess given I have absolutely no knowledge of what the status is on any of the required items.

    and (b) the tender period. Again, this one could be difficult to pin down. Typically, I'd estimate most contractors could respond within 5 weeks, but given this is public money, there could be a more aggressive negotiation period and could potentially be subject to numerous re-tenders.

    It's still a massively positive step.

    Good. Everything you've outlines involved weeks rather than months. I'm allowing myself get excited about this now. I'd still be interested in any plans for the actual running of facility. In other words... could I get a job out of it.


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    #7
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,204 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    Harrybelafonte wrote: »
    Good. Everything you've outlines involved weeks rather than months. I'm allowing myself get excited about this now. I'd still be interested in any plans for the actual running of facility. In other words... could I get a job out of it.

    Planning takes months/years

    I've been involved in developments that have taken years just to go through the planning process


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    #8
    dave_o_brien
    Registered Users Posts: 2,275 ✭✭✭dave_o_brien


    Harrybelafonte wrote: »
    Good. Everything you've outlines involved weeks rather than months. I'm allowing myself get excited about this now. I'd still be interested in any plans for the actual running of facility. In other words... could I get a job out of it.

    Wow wow wow... The various steps are weeks, not months, but cumulatively, it's still a lengthy process.

    Let's be relatively optimistic:

    4 weeks for preparing the pack, 8 weeks until decision is made.

    That's 3 months until a yay or nay.

    Throw in complications (Requests for Further Information, requirements for Environmental Impact Statements, etc.) and this could easily be 4-6 months. And that's if it runs smoothly.

    Then there's the potential it to be rejected. RFI's might be requested that require more time. Appeals might be made to An Bord Pleanala (assuming it's not an SDZ). Impossible to say, and irresponsible to suggest one way or another.

    I'm of the opinion that the appointed engineers (Tobin Consulting Engineers) are a good team to have on board. I think this is a great step, and definite cause for excitement, but it's most definitely months off, not weeks.


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    #9
    dave_o_brien
    Registered Users Posts: 2,275 ✭✭✭dave_o_brien


    godtabh wrote: »
    Planning takes months/years

    I've been involved in developments that have taken years just to go through the planning process

    There are statutory periods for it. We know a decision must be made no more than 8 weeks after submission to any council in the State. If it is an SDZ, that is likely to be 6 weeks. Resubmissions, adjustments, and RFI's can lengthen the process, but it's not like the UK, where a single application might take years.


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    #10
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,204 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    dave_o_brien wrote: »
    There are statutory periods for it. We know a decision must be made no more than 8 weeks after submission to any council in the State. If it is an SDZ, that is likely to be 6 weeks. Resubmissions, adjustments, and RFI's can lengthen the process, but it's not like the UK, where a single application might take years.

    I've done applications in Ireland and the UK. If this gets through planning with in 6 months from this announcement it will be doing well.


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    #11
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,559 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    bcmf wrote: »
    Planning , Objections , building probably take a few years,
    This proposa is to utilise part of the national sports campus. Yes planning laws must be observed, but the chances of significant objections or delays beyond the normal planning timetable must be pretty low


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    #12
    dave_o_brien
    Registered Users Posts: 2,275 ✭✭✭dave_o_brien


    godtabh wrote: »
    I've done applications in Ireland and the UK. If this gets through planning with in 6 months from this announcement it will be doing well.

    Likewise.

    As I said in my previous post, there is one unknown time period: time required to prepare the submission. I don't know that, you don't know that (unless you work for TCE?), so that might well take 4 months.

    The absolutely known figure is that the Authorities will respond within 8 weeks of submission of the application, with a yes, no or request for further information.

    If by saying "If this gets through planning with in 6 months from this announcement it will be doing well", you mean gets through and permitted, then you're introducing a second unknown. If the Authority reject the application, then it'll take a lot longer than 6 months.

    I don't think it's likely to attract many legitimate objections though.


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    #13
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,204 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    dave_o_brien wrote: »
    I don't think it's likely to attract many legitimate objections though.

    I did a job recently where there was 550 odd objections. It broke down to 4 different letters photocopied and signed.


    It came out later that a local business man paid locals because the development was a competitor. I work on the basis that the job will end up at the Bord


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    #14
    dave_o_brien
    Registered Users Posts: 2,275 ✭✭✭dave_o_brien


    godtabh wrote: »
    I did a job recently where there was 550 odd objections. It broke down to 4 different letters photocopied and signed.


    It came out later that a local business man paid locals because the development was a competitor. I work on the basis that the job will end up at the Bord

    Ha, 550 is a fair few, alright! But I can't see too many objectors to this one, can you? Are sundrive going to object to the 'competition'? FAI object that the money should be spent elsewhere? Garth brooks fans request allocation of the land to a memorial site to the evils carried out by urbanites?

    Anyone involved in the construction industry has encountered objections, but I don't see too much mud sticking to this one, unless the application is very poor. And I don't expect that, either.


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    #15
    eeeee
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,831 Mod ✭✭✭✭eeeee


    Track throughout the year, can't wait! Sundrive summers and Abbotstown winters - yep I think that can work!

    I shall squint hopefully in the direction of said planning process. *squints* There. I deduce no problems with this application!


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    #16
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    gadetra wrote: »
    Track throughout the year, can't wait! Sundrive summers and Abbotstown winters - yep I think that can work!

    I shall squint hopefully in the direction of said planning process. *squints* There. I deduce no problems with this application!

    As was said previously in other threads, we're still not 100% on what access the public, us, will have. I do hope it's substantial, though I'm sure the cost of using it will grow too. I still plan a visit or two to the continent before next season.

    (@Dave: I was just happy your estimates were in a basic unit of weeks rather than months, I'm sure we're looking at lots of time, but I'll just be happy if I'm not a vet before it happens)


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    #17
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,559 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    I think this option will hopefully allow for more public access than the other ones. It will require full-time manning, and elite cyclists and paracyclists will clearly get priority. The bigger issue to me is getting enough full-time coaches to make it operate for long enough hours. Manchester has a larger catchment area than Dublin, but not that much, and hopefully over time there will be sufficient demand to make the place operational from early morning to late evening throughout the week


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    #18
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    Beasty wrote: »
    I think this option will hopefully allow for more public access than the other ones. It will require full-time manning, and elite cyclists and paracyclists will clearly get priority. The bigger issue to me is getting enough full-time coaches to make it operate for long enough hours. Manchester has a larger catchment area than Dublin, but not that much, and hopefully over time there will be sufficient demand to make the place operational from early morning to late evening throughout the week

    I don't think we should be comparing to Manchester however. Surely Newport and Glasgow might be closer relative to Dublin.


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    #19
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,559 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Glasgow in some ways (mainly size-wise), but actually Manchester was the UK track-cycling "start-up" facility, and has many more parallels with the Irish situation

    In terms of track quality, they are all pretty similar (and the cost of the track itself is pretty much fixed - most debate is over the length of straights and angles on bends which differ depending on whether you want to gear it for sprinters or pursuiters) - Manchester and Glasgow have better spectating facilities, but that's only really relevant if you want to host major championships and World Cups (which are actually quite costly - that is why they sometimes struggle to get a full programme of World Cup events - last year I think they ended up with 2 in Mexico and one in the UK - the likes of Melbourne, Minsk, Beijing etc were not interested)


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    #20
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    maybe we could combine badminton & track cycling as a hybrid sport, like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_boxing


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    #21
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    maybe ready in 18months

    http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/dream-of-world-class-velodrome-for-ireland-moves-closer-may-now-open-within-18-months/


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    #22
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,559 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    It will not take long to build once it gets the go-ahead. I would be delighted if they could get it open within 18 months, but I suspect there will be some delays even if it goes through smoothly. I also suspect the elite cyclists build up to Rio will take place somewhere else with the velodrome perhaps open for action for winter 2016, when the Olympians and Paralympians are back from Brazil


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    #23
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    I hope they have the national champs in it but keep the Duane Delaney and Leinster champs at Sundrive

    Winter indoor league would be amazing! really looking forward to faster flying 200m's, no rain or wind, and using tubs/ultra light clinchers without risk of glass punctures like at Sundrive


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    #24
    C-Shore
    Registered Users Posts: 686 ✭✭✭C-Shore


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    I hope they have the national champs in it but keep the Duane Delaney and Leinster champs at Sundrive

    Winter indoor league would be amazing! really looking forward to faster flying 200m's, no rain or wind, and using tubs/ultra light clinchers without risk of glass punctures like at Sundrive

    And no apples being thrown over the fence!

    I'm really excited for this, even if it's 4 years but just to see it happen and have year round track training and racing.

    I should still be young enough to race on it should it be made available for something like a club league, but I would expect they will allow for a lot of training sessions and bookings to be made like at Sundrive.


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    #25
    12 sprocket
    Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭12 sprocket


    C-Shore wrote: »
    And no apples being thrown over the fence!

    I'm really excited for this, even if it's 4 years but just to see it happen and have year round track training and racing.

    I should still be young enough to race on it should it be made available for something like a club league, but I would expect they will allow for a lot of training sessions and bookings to be made like at Sundrive.

    Only apples thrown over the fence, how civilised. there was a time when the apples had been pulped and made into cider, and bottles and all went over the fence.


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    #26
    eeeee
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,831 Mod ✭✭✭✭eeeee


    12 sprocket wrote: »
    Only apples thrown over the fence, how civilised. there was a time when the apples had been pulped and made into cider, and bottles and all went over the fence.

    There was a plastic dinosaur the other week.
    It's that kind of character Abbotstown won't have :pac:


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    #27
    el tel
    Registered Users Posts: 2,991 ✭✭✭el tel


    If they find newts at the site, are they fooked?


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    #28
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,559 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    C-Shore wrote: »

    I should still be young enough to race on it should it be made available for something like a club league, but I would expect they will allow for a lot of training sessions and bookings to be made like at Sundrive.
    There's at least one guy who remains very competitive and is already north of 60...

    In terms of "club league", I would expect the current format to continue with an indoor winter league hopefully complementing an outdoor summer one. That's essentially an "open" programme (open to any accredited CI member), probably one evening each week (although in Manchester they have 2 winter leagues - Mondays and Fridays - one is for accredited riders only and the other permits non-accredited racers)


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    #29
    C-Shore
    Registered Users Posts: 686 ✭✭✭C-Shore


    Beasty wrote: »
    There's at least one guy who remains very competitive and is already north of 60...

    Hugh will be delighted to hear you said he was still competitive :pac:


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    #30
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    C-Shore wrote: »
    Hugh will be delighted to hear you said he was still competitive :pac:

    Not Hugh, but another club member.

    Tbh, we've not had any glass bottles so far this year and the park seems a little quieter this year, but we did have a lad run across the track at a late evening training session. Not a major biggie, but shows they can get over when they want to.


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    #31
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    I'd also wonder if the current coaching staff will need to run through new coaching training considering the difference the banking causes. They're all experienced with "proper" banking, but I just wonder.

    Health and safety, the accreditation will be much stricter. Diving off the banking on a full drome is nowhere near what it's like in Sundrive.


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