A Question for those who paid the Household Charge

Mr. Presentable · 01-06-2012 10:40am

I don't understand why, if it's to fund local services, only the home owner is liable. Do not tenants use the local services, rather than the absentee landlord? Does this mean that in an area with many exemptions due to poverty there will be no services?

Graces7 · 01-06-2012 11:09am

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

I don't understand why, if it's to fund local services, only the home owner is liable. Do not tenants use the local services, rather than the absentee landlord? Does this mean that in an area with many exemptions due to poverty there will be no services?

Well, no. Services will be provided by the money raised from those who can pay..
As has always been. In the UK we still paid the Poll Tax but at a lower rate.

Zamboni · 01-06-2012 11:12am

Graces7 wrote: »

Well, no. Services will be provided by the money raised from those who can pay..
As has always been. In the UK we still paid the Poll Tax but at a lower rate.

It is good to see families in negative equity pay for my services whilst I rent and save.
You have some twisted logic there Graces7.

Graces7 · 01-06-2012 11:20am

Zamboni wrote: »

It is good to see families in negative equity pay for my services whilst I rent and save.
You have some twisted logic there Graces7.

I was not and am not commenting; simply stating facts.

So please don't attack the messenger.

I stated no opinion or logic.

But we who rent are paying anyways indirectly.

Old saying re the law; if you commit the crime, be prepared to do the time.

tayto lover · 01-06-2012 1:25pm

Graces7 wrote: »

I was not and am not commenting; simply stating facts.

So please don't attack the messenger.

I stated no opinion or logic.

But we who rent are paying anyways indirectly.

Old saying re the law; if you commit the crime, be prepared to do the time.

You also omitted to mention the services you get for your payment, bin collection, streets swept etc. I pay bin services to a private company after my local council sold off the contract. My street is rarely swept and is in a very bad state of repair and long before this tax was mentioned.
In the u.k. you get free doctors / dentist etc

Graces7 · 01-06-2012 1:36pm

tayto lover wrote: »

You also omitted to mention the services you get for your payment, bin collection, streets swept etc. I pay bin services to a private company after my local council sold off the contract. My street is rarely swept and is in a very bad state of repair and long before this tax was mentioned.
In the u.k. you get free doctors / dentist etc

Where I lived in an isolated area we got almost nothing. Streets swept? lol!

And we had and have almost no rubbish. You pay by the amount you create, surely which should lead you to think carefully re how you live;)

Maybe if more paid as Poll Tax here, services would be ameliorated.

We get free health care here and I totaly agree re dentists. Even medical card holders get a derisory service. As I learned when my upper denture broke.Were it not for a very kind young dentist who took pity on an old pensioner....

But YOUR logic makes no sense. we have no services so we will not pay to get more services?

So what if any is YOUR cure?

tayto lover · 01-06-2012 1:43pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Where I lived in an isolated area we got almost nothing. Streets swept? lol!

And we had and have almost no rubbish. You pay by the amount you create, surely which should lead you to think carefully re how you live;)

Maybe if more paid as Poll Tax here, services would be ameliorated.

We get free health care here and I totaly agree re dentists. Even medical card holders get a derisory service. As I learned when my upper denture broke.Were it not for a very kind young dentist who took pity on an old pensioner....

But YOUR logic makes no sense. we have no services so we will not pay to get more services?

So what if any is YOUR cure?

I always pay for my services but I do want proper ones.

Graces7 · 01-06-2012 1:45pm

tayto lover wrote: »

I always pay for my services but I do want proper ones.

Define "proper" ones... this post does not answer the issues!

Have a nice day anyways...

tayto lover · 01-06-2012 1:49pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Define "proper" ones... this post does not answer the issues!

Have a nice day anyways...

Roads in my area repaired and cleaned regularly. Street lights working, drains cleared when necessary. That kind of thing. Its not happening now and we are paying for this already.
Nice day to you too.

Graces7 · 01-06-2012 1:53pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Roads in my area repaired and cleaned regularly. Street lights working, drains cleared when necessary. That kind of thing. Its not happening now and we are paying for this already.
Nice day to you too.

Out of what? general taxation? Clearly it is not enough and no other EU country manages without the equivalent of a Poll Tax/rates etc.

Similarly water rates; if you want pure water at your house you need to pay for it. It costs, as those who pay for private wells know fine well. The next fuss will be about that..

Enjoy court etc...

Using more tax payers money...

Over and out! Blessings and peace...

It was E2 a week!

tayto lover · 01-06-2012 2:25pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Out of what? general taxation? Clearly it is not enough and no other EU country manages without the equivalent of a Poll Tax/rates etc.

Similarly water rates; if you want pure water at your house you need to pay for it. It costs, as those who pay for private wells know fine well. The next fuss will be about that..

Enjoy court etc...

Using more tax payers money...

Over and out! Blessings and peace...

It was E2 a week!

Yeah 2e a week UNTIL they get you registered then bump bump bump.

Zamboni · 01-06-2012 2:28pm

Graces7 wrote: »

It was E2 a week!

That is rich coming from a poster who regularly plays the poverty stricken card here.

Graces7 · 01-06-2012 2:55pm

Zamboni wrote: »

That is rich coming from a poster who regularly plays the poverty stricken card here.

???? You imply what? I don't play cards, period. Nasty comments like this do not impress one iota. rather the opposite.. should have left you on my
ignore list from previously when you behved badly .. there you go! Wonderful feature is ignore!

I refuse to take this kind of comment seriously.

Had it been that tenants had to pay I would have paid.

Which is what this is about. It is the law so.

L1011 · 01-06-2012 8:53pm

Zamboni wrote: »

That is rich coming from a poster who regularly plays the poverty stricken card here.

Or maybe its just a bit of reality - that the people the protestors keep crying "won't be able to pay" ARE able to pay.

If you can't afford the household charge, you can't afford to own a house.

gerryo777 · 01-06-2012 8:56pm

MYOB wrote: »

Or maybe its just a bit of reality - that the people the protestors keep crying "won't be able to pay" ARE able to pay.

If you can't afford the household charge, you can't afford to own a house.

What would you suggest people do then?
Sell up and get a council house?

L1011 · 01-06-2012 9:00pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

What would you suggest people do then?
Sell up and get a council house?

Rent. There is absolutely nothing wrong with renting, its just that the Irish have an addiction to owning bricks.

gerryo777 · 01-06-2012 9:02pm

MYOB wrote: »

Rent. There is absolutely nothing wrong with renting, its just that the Irish have an addiction to owning bricks.

And let someone else pay for them!

Zamboni · 01-06-2012 9:32pm

MYOB wrote: »

If you can't afford the household charge, you can't afford to own a house.

That is reverse thinking.
The vast majority of properties were bought before the announcement of the charge.
How the do you budget for something which doesn't exist?
Does that mean renters should start budgeting for the upcoming renters service charge? And if you cannot afford the renters service charge you cannot afford to rent?
I am being facetious because your reasoning is illogical.

StillWaters · 01-06-2012 10:23pm

Zamboni wrote: »

That is reverse thinking.
The vast majority of properties were bought before the announcement of the charge.
How the do you budget for something which doesn't exist?
Does that mean renters should start budgeting for the upcoming renters service charge? And if you cannot afford the renters service charge you cannot afford to rent?
I am being facetious because your reasoning is illogical.

We are one of the last countries in Europe to bring in a property tax. It wasn't rocket science to figure out it would be introduced at some stage. Home ownership is a luxury, not a right, as it is perceived by many. I certainly figured it was coming when I bought years ago.

People, not just on the left have been saying for years renting should be made more attractive so as to discourage property being such a pivotal part of our economic growth, and this goes some small way towards it.

Hijpo · 01-06-2012 10:31pm

We wont get the level of service other countries get for there property tax, Dublin 4 might but smaller towns wont.

Pkiernan · 01-06-2012 11:09pm

StillWaters wrote: »

We are one of the last countries in Europe to bring in a property tax. It wasn't rocket science to figure out it would be introduced at some stage. Home ownership is a luxury, not a right, as it is perceived by many. I certainly figured it was coming when I bought years ago.

People, not just on the left have been saying for years renting should be made more attractive so as to discourage property being such a pivotal part of our economic growth, and this goes some small way towards it.

Stalin would be proud of you. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Homeownership is a right - if you can afford to buy a house, you should be allowed to own one.

The government taxing us to live in our own homes is a breach of our fundamental human rights. They are no better than British landlords of pre-famine Ireland who effectively taxed us for living on our own land.

I am curious - do you work for a living, or are you on social welfare?

Pkiernan · 01-06-2012 11:13pm

StillWaters wrote: »

... renting should be made more attractive so as to discourage property being such a pivotal part of our economic growth, and this goes some small way towards it.

By the way it is renters on low income who ultimately end up paying property taxes for their landlords.
This is something that most hash-smoking left wing loonies (not necessarily you Stillwaters) just can't seem to grasp. The taxes on the so-called rich just end up hurting the poorest of society.

It's a shame most people aren't as smart as me. The country would be a lot better off.

StillWaters · 02-06-2012 8:56am

Pkiernan wrote: »

It's a shame most people aren't as smart as me. The country would be a lot better off.

Or as modest, we could rule the world!

2rkehij30qtza5 · 02-06-2012 9:03am

The rule of law is there for a reason. Why should people think they have a right to pick and choose what laws they want to abide and those they don't want to abide?
There's an road I regularly drive which is a 50kph zone. I think it's a ridiculous speed limit to have on this stretch of road but that doesn't give me the right to drive at 60kph, just because I think it's stupid.
My point is..people are not be allowed cherry pick what laws they want to abide and what ones they want to flout!
Our elected representatives (who we chose to represent US in government) voted this law in and it's there whether we like it or not.

dvpower · 02-06-2012 9:20am

Hijpo wrote: »

We wont get the level of service other countries get for there property tax, Dublin 4 might but smaller towns wont.

Is there any evidence that DCC provide more services in D4 than the rest of the city, or is that just a chip on your shoulder?

tayto lover · 02-06-2012 10:24am

Haley Screeching Antifreeze wrote: »

The rule of law is there for a reason. Why should people think they have a right to pick and choose what laws they want to abide and those they don't want to abide?
There's an road I regularly drive which is a 50kph zone. I think it's a ridiculous speed limit to have on this stretch of road but that doesn't give me the right to drive at 60kph, just because I think it's stupid.
My point is..people are not be allowed cherry pick what laws they want to abide and what ones they want to flout!
Our elected representatives (who we chose to represent US in government) voted this law in and it's there whether we like it or not.

So you will go along with any old law they dream up to relieve you of your few euros ? If they introduce a lawnmower tax or a tree tax for having one in your garden would you be sheepish enough to pay those too ?
A tax for daring to own your own home is a disgrace and I wont be paying it.

marienbad · 02-06-2012 12:00pm

tayto lover wrote: »

So you will go along with any old law they dream up to relieve you of your few euros ? If they introduce a lawnmower tax or a tree tax for having one in your garden would you be sheepish enough to pay those too ?
A tax for daring to own your own home is a disgrace and I wont be paying it.

This is just rubbish now taytolover - judge on the laws introduced not the makey uppy ones that suit your point, This tax has been mooted for years only FF did'nt need to bite the bullet ( well they did but as usual choose not to and left it to someone else to pick up the pieces) so stop behaving as if it was a bolt from the blue.

tayto lover · 02-06-2012 12:20pm

marienbad wrote: »

This is just rubbish now taytolover - judge on the laws introduced not the makey uppy ones that suit your point, This tax has been mooted for years only FF did'nt need to bite the bullet ( well they did but as usual choose not to and left it to someone else to pick up the pieces) so stop behaving as if it was a bolt from the blue.

So they talked about it for years !!!
Before that then it was just makey uppy too.
Does that make it right now ?

Hijpo · 02-06-2012 2:36pm

dvpower wrote: »

Hijpo wrote: »

We wont get the level of service other countries get for there property tax, Dublin 4 might but smaller towns wont.

Is there any evidence that DCC provide more services in D4 than the rest of the city, or is that just a chip on your shoulder?

No im saying that the taxes collected wont be fairly spent, D4 (or any other upper class locality) will be favoured over a smaller town.

marienbad · 02-06-2012 2:46pm

tayto lover wrote: »

So they talked about it for years !!!
Before that then it was just makey uppy too.
Does that make it right now ?

yes it does, and considering the situation we are in- doubly so. What do you suggest ?

This is one of the fairest taxes there is- the bigger the mansion the bigger the tax .

What would you suggest ?

tayto lover · 02-06-2012 3:15pm

marienbad wrote: »

yes it does, and considering the situation we are in- doubly so. What do you suggest ?

This is one of the fairest taxes there is- the bigger the mansion the bigger the tax .

What would you suggest ?

I'd suggest a fairer taxation. Listening to Joe Duffy the other day he stated that farmers pay less than 1% of the total tax take. Nobody contradicted his figures and I don't know where he got those figures from but if he's right then the country reeks of favouritism. There are many farmers driving around in 30k plus Mercs. They seem to be getting life very easy. Their children get free education grants etc while they get most of the European grant money.

Hitting the same people for everything will not work. Its time to spread the tax net.

marienbad · 02-06-2012 3:40pm

tayto lover wrote: »

I'd suggest a fairer taxation. Listening to Joe Duffy the other day he stated that farmers pay less than 1% of the total tax take. Nobody contradicted his figures and I don't know where he got those figures from but if he's right then the country reeks of favouritism. There are many farmers driving around in 30k plus Mercs. They seem to be getting life very easy. Their children get free education grants etc while they get most of the European grant money.

Hitting the same people for everything will not work. Its time to spread the tax net.

and this method is possibly the fairest way of spreading the tax net.

This does not preclude going after farmers or anybody else not paying their fair share- we can do both, we need to do both and more if we are to get out of the mess we are in.

tayto lover · 02-06-2012 5:20pm

marienbad wrote: »

and this method is possibly the fairest way of spreading the tax net.

This does not preclude going after farmers or anybody else not paying their fair share- we can do both, we need to do both and more if we are to get out of the mess we are in.

Back where we started. It's not fair. Taxing someones home is totally unfair and will never be fair in my opinion. Whats more not every home is being taxed which is also unfair.

L1011 · 02-06-2012 5:39pm

Zamboni wrote: »

That is reverse thinking.
The vast majority of properties were bought before the announcement of the charge.
How the do you budget for something which doesn't exist?
Does that mean renters should start budgeting for the upcoming renters service charge? And if you cannot afford the renters service charge you cannot afford to rent?
I am being facetious because your reasoning is illogical.

If your budgeting to buy a house cannot factor in €2 a week, you aren't going to be able to maintain the house. Ergo, you cannot afford to buy a house.

Hijpo · 02-06-2012 6:55pm

MYOB wrote: »

Zamboni wrote: »

That is reverse thinking.
The vast majority of properties were bought before the announcement of the charge.
How the do you budget for something which doesn't exist?
Does that mean renters should start budgeting for the upcoming renters service charge? And if you cannot afford the renters service charge you cannot afford to rent?
I am being facetious because your reasoning is illogical.

If your budgeting to buy a house cannot factor in €2 a week, you aren't going to be able to maintain the house. Ergo, you cannot afford to buy a house.

What if you have a few bob left to enjoy yourself during these depressing times? Do we hand over some of the leisure money to pay a bill that will eventually increase to take all your leisure money?

tayto lover · 02-06-2012 7:41pm

I can't believe that there are people posting here who actually believe that this tax will remain at 2e a week. Also these are posters who stated that WE should have planned ahead.

marienbad · 02-06-2012 7:47pm

tayto lover wrote: »

I can't believe that there are people posting here who actually believe that this tax will remain at 2e a week. Also these are posters who stated that WE should have planned ahead.

Of course no one belives it will remain at this level and that is the beauty of it, that is if it is applied equitably ( and that is where your protest should be) it is in fact a wealth tax.

tayto lover · 02-06-2012 7:50pm

marienbad wrote: »

Of course no one belives it will remain at this level and that is the beauty of it, that is if it is applied equitably ( and that is where your protest should be) it is in fact a wealth tax.

No it is a Home Tax. They are taxing your HOME.

marienbad · 02-06-2012 8:00pm

tayto lover wrote: »

No it is a Home Tax. They are taxing your HOME.

So what, you say HOME as if it sacred, it is just an asset like anything else and whats more one that is not so easy to hide or move offshore.

Long overdue, the ordinary Joe paying 2e per week and Michael Flatley/ tony O'Reilly etc 200+e a week.

L1011 · 02-06-2012 8:03pm

tayto lover wrote: »

No it is a Home Tax. They are taxing your HOME.

they're taxing properties.

A "home tax" would only apply to one property out of all you own.

Hijpo wrote: »

What if you have a few bob left to enjoy yourself during these depressing times? Do we hand over some of the leisure money to pay a bill that will eventually increase to take all your leisure money?

If you're budgeting that tightly, when something happens to/in your house - damage, dead appliance, etc - you're completely screwed.

If you can't afford the charges that come with owning a house, you can't afford to own a house. Its the same as having a car - do you think that we should let people who can afford to buy the bare metal drive it without tax, insurance, or paying for fuel?

tayto lover · 02-06-2012 8:06pm

marienbad wrote: »

So what, you say HOME as if it sacred, it is just an asset like anything else and whats more one that is not so easy to hide or move offshore.

Long overdue, the ordinary Joe paying 2e per week and Michael Flatley/ tony O'Reilly etc 200+e a week.

It is unfair and unjust to tax someone's home. I will not pay it.
My home is for the benefit of myself and my family. I built it, paid for it over many years and will not be paying for it again.
It is a HOME tax.

tayto lover · 02-06-2012 8:08pm

MYOB wrote: »

they're taxing properties.

A "home tax" would only apply to one property out of all you own.

If you're budgeting that tightly, when something happens to/in your house - damage, dead appliance, etc - you're completely screwed.

If you can't afford the charges that come with owning a house, you can't afford to own a house. Its the same as having a car - do you think that we should let people who can afford to buy the bare metal drive it without tax, insurance, or paying for fuel?

Pure rubbish. My tax, insurance etc are always paid. I get a service for that. I get nothing for a home tax as I pay for all the service into it already.

L1011 · 02-06-2012 8:11pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Pure rubbish. My tax, insurance etc are always paid. I get a service for that. I get nothing for a home tax as I pay for all the service into it already.

The state is running a major deficit. Services are not being paid for.

Zamboni · 02-06-2012 8:11pm

marienbad wrote: »

So what, you say HOME as if it sacred, it is just an asset like anything else and whats more one that is not so easy to hide or move offshore.

Long overdue, the ordinary Joe paying 2e per week and Michael Flatley/ tony O'Reilly etc 200+e a week.

Tax income, tax interest earned, tax winnings, charge for services.
But don't tax ownership. It is double taxation.
Household charge and pension levy are not wealth taxes.
Where does it stop? Why not tax private bank deposits?

It is insidious.

L1011 · 02-06-2012 8:12pm

Zamboni wrote: »

Where does it stop? Why not tax private bank deposits?

I think you'll find the political parties most opposed to property taxation support that concept.

Zamboni · 02-06-2012 8:19pm

MYOB wrote: »

I think you'll find the political parties most opposed to property taxation support that concept.

What they think is of no concern to me. They are not in power.

L1011 · 02-06-2012 8:23pm

Zamboni wrote: »

What they think is of no concern to me. They are not in power.

Well, you've got a choice of parties who will impose property taxes; or parties who want to impose generic "wealth taxes" on bank accounts, investments, etc, but don't seem to accept property as wealth.

You decide.

Zamboni · 02-06-2012 8:36pm

MYOB wrote: »

Well, you've got a choice of parties who will impose property taxes; or parties who want to impose generic "wealth taxes" on bank accounts, investments, etc, but don't seem to accept property as wealth.

You decide.

There is another choice but sourcing funds for a new political party would be quite a task.

Hijpo · 02-06-2012 11:10pm

Zamboni wrote: »

MYOB wrote: »

Well, you've got a choice of parties who will impose property taxes; or parties who want to impose generic "wealth taxes" on bank accounts, investments, etc, but don't seem to accept property as wealth.

You decide.

There is another choice but sourcing funds for a new political party would be quite a task.

What about levys on home insurance? Will that be scrapped if they bring in the property tax? Or will we have to pay two charges concerning your home?

Everyone saves for a rainy day incase appliances fail etc should we not save now aswell? I would pay the 2 euro if it was staying at 2 euro but the fact that its going to increase and nobody knows how much so it doesnt allow me to budget properly for the future either. I didnt stay out of financial difficulty by leaping blindly into situations.

dvpower · 03-06-2012 11:59am

Hijpo wrote: »

No im saying that the taxes collected wont be fairly spent, D4 (or any other upper class locality) will be favoured over a smaller town.

Where is the evidence that 'upper class' areas get more council resources than elsewhere? I would think that councils spend more money proportionally on poorer areas.

Obviously small sparsely populated areas will get less resources than densely populated areas areas, which is perfectly reasonable.

A Question for those who paid the Household Charge

Comments