A Question for those who paid the Household Charge

Zamboni · 31-05-2012 1:19pm

Pal wrote: »

What happens now to the spongers who didn't pay ?

There is a lot of spongers in this country.
People that didn't pay the household charge would be near the bottom of that list in my opinion.

OldNotWIse · 31-05-2012 1:58pm

Pal wrote: »

What happens now to the spongers who didn't pay ?

I think there's a fine of a tenner or something? Not sure...
IMO the "spongers" were exempt from the charge to begin with :rolleyes:

marienbad · 31-05-2012 2:10pm

Of course I paid it. One of the fairest taxes there is , Long overdue.

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 5:40pm

marienbad wrote: »

Of course I paid it. One of the fairest taxes there is , Long overdue.

Please explain how it's fair ? Were you exempt Stamp Duty ?

L1011 · 31-05-2012 6:48pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Please explain how it's fair ? Were you exempt Stamp Duty ?

Stamp Duty is a transaction tax, not a property tax.

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 6:51pm

MYOB wrote: »

Stamp Duty is a transaction tax, not a property tax.

So what do we get for this extra tax then ?

L1011 · 31-05-2012 6:55pm

tayto lover wrote: »

So what do we get for this extra tax then ?

What do you get from any tax?

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 6:57pm

MYOB wrote: »

What do you get from any tax?

I get services for my income tax. Roads repaired for my Car Tax. I get my teeth checked for my P.R.S.I.
So again what do I get for the Household tax ?

L1011 · 31-05-2012 7:02pm

tayto lover wrote: »

I get services for my income tax. Roads repaired for my Car Tax. I get my teeth checked for my P.R.S.I.
So again what do I get for the Household tax ?

Not another 1% on income tax, realistically

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 7:04pm

MYOB wrote: »

Not another 1% on income tax, realistically

So is that what I think then -- nothing ?

L1011 · 31-05-2012 7:06pm

tayto lover wrote: »

So is that what I think then -- nothing ?

The tax has to be raised some way. Would you rather its arbitrarily taken from everyone (through income tax, VAT, etc) or from property owners who, by virtue of owning a property, have shown that they have some form of wealth.

We get apparent "left" parties screaming for "wealth taxes" and as soon as we bring one in, they start crying. Surreal.

Oh, and btw, the amount spent on roads per annum is but a tiny fraction of the amount of motor tax, VRT and fuel taxes brought in. ALL taxes end up going towards the general exchequer in the end.

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 7:11pm

MYOB wrote: »

The tax has to be raised some way. Would you rather its arbitrarily taken from everyone (through income tax, VAT, etc) or from property owners who, by virtue of owning a property, have shown that they have some form of wealth.

We get apparent "left" parties screaming for "wealth taxes" and as soon as we bring one in, they start crying. Surreal.

Oh, and btw, the amount spent on roads per annum is but a tiny fraction of the amount of motor tax, VRT and fuel taxes brought in. ALL taxes end up going towards the general exchequer in the end.

So is it only "property owners" who have to pay ?
I thought it was everyone who had a house. Even those who have huge mortgages which they are struggling to pay. Didn't know it was only the owners.

L1011 · 31-05-2012 7:13pm

tayto lover wrote: »

So is it only "property owners" who have to pay ?
I thought it was everyone who had a house. Even those who have huge mortgages which they are struggling to pay. Didn't know it was only the owners.

I don't see why I should bother to answer should a ridiculously framed statement - seeing as you know full well who is liable and what a property owner is, but anyway.

Someone with a mortgage on a house is the property owner. This concept of "the bank owns the house" is incorrect, the bank holds a charge on the house.

If they're struggling to repay the mortgage, they need to sort that out. They may not have the financial capability to own a property. Just because Ireland has an obsession with owning bricks and mortar doesn't mean that people have to.

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 7:17pm

MYOB wrote: »

I don't see why I should bother to answer should a ridiculously framed statement - seeing as you know full well who is liable and what a property owner is, but anyway.

Someone with a mortgage on a house is the property owner. This concept of "the bank owns the house" is incorrect, the bank holds a charge on the house.

If they're struggling to repay the mortgage, they need to sort that out. They may not have the financial capability to own a property. Just because Ireland has an obsession with owning bricks and mortar doesn't mean that people have to.

I agree. People should just stop trying to pay their ridiculous mortgages and give back the keys. If they then get a council house they won't have to pay any property tax.

L1011 · 31-05-2012 7:20pm

you also don't appear to understand that said people would have to pay the higher general taxation we'd have otherwise. Can you explain how they'd handle that if they can't afford the household charge?

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 7:26pm

MYOB wrote: »

you also don't appear to understand that said people would have to pay the higher general taxation we'd have otherwise. Can you explain how they'd handle that if they can't afford the household charge?

They wouldn't be able to pay that either i'd say. The price of everything seems to be rising, petrol, gas, health insurance, groceries etc. People seem to be getting it hard to feed their families.

marienbad · 31-05-2012 9:04pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Please explain how it's fair ? Were you exempt Stamp Duty ?

No I was not exempt stamp duty, why would you ask that ?

It is fair as long as it is calculated on house value and ability to pay and not simply a poll tax. It is just bringing back household rates which FF under Jack Lynch abolished all those decades ago and crippled Local Government. And by the way started the trend of buying the electorate which has in no small measure contributed to where we are today.

Do you think it is unfair ?

Icepick · 31-05-2012 9:04pm

tayto lover wrote: »

They wouldn't be able to pay that either i'd say. The price of everything seems to be rising, petrol, gas, health insurance, groceries etc. People seem to be getting it hard to feed their families.

Inflation is below 2%.

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 9:08pm

Icepick wrote: »

Inflation is below 2%.

Are you denying that the items I have mentioned are going up in price ?
That 2% figure is a myth imo.

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 9:11pm

marienbad wrote: »

No I was not exempt stamp duty, why would you ask that ?

It is fair as long as it is calculated on house value and ability to pay and not simply a poll tax. It is just bringing back household rates which FF under Jack Lynch abolished all those decades ago and crippled Local Government. And by the way started the trend of buying the electorate which has in no small measure contributed to where we are today.

Do you think it is unfair ?

As Enda Kenny said -

It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home.

- Enda Kenny on house taxes, 1994

marienbad · 31-05-2012 9:17pm

tayto lover wrote: »

As Enda Kenny said -

It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home.

- Enda Kenny on house taxes, 1994

So what if he said that, do you stand by everything you said 18 years ago ?

Things change ,times change . We are still undertaxed compared to other developed countries . This is one of the fairer taxes . What would you suggest ?

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 9:23pm

marienbad wrote: »

So what if he said that, do you stand by everything you said 18 years ago ?

Things change ,times change . We are still undertaxed compared to other developed countries . This is one of the fairer taxes . What would you suggest ?

Well Enda hasn't stood by ANYTHING he said in the last few years, particularly his pre-election promises and 5 point plan.
There is nothing fair about this tax at all as not everyone has to pay it.
I would suggest an increase in Income Tax as I resent a tax being put on the home I struggled to pay a mortgage on for many years. I agree with Enda's 1994 statement.

marienbad · 31-05-2012 9:37pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Well Enda hasn't stood by ANYTHING he said in the last few years, particularly his pre-election promises and 5 point plan.
There is nothing fair about this tax at all as not everyone has to pay it.
I would suggest an increase in Income Tax as I resent a tax being put on the home I struggled to pay a mortgage on for many years. I agree with Enda's 1994 statement.

You are just being naive now- what Enda said or did'nt say in the past is simply irrelevant . The position we find ourselves is effectively our ''zero hour'' and we have to do as best we can moving forward , and this is one of the fairer taxes out there.

By the way I have paid a mortgage all my working life and hoped to be clear of it next year, but now we have this tax - such is life.
If I can afford to pay it I will pay it and if not I will be exempt- can't be fairer than that. As i said earlier - long overdue as long as it is applied correctly.

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 9:42pm

marienbad wrote: »

You are just being naive now- what Enda said or did'nt say in the past is simply irrelevant . The position we find ourselves is effectively our ''zero hour'' and we have to do as best we can moving forward , and this is one of the fairer taxes out there.

By the way I have paid a mortgage all my working life and hoped to be clear of it next year, but now we have this tax - such is life.
If I can afford to pay it I will pay it and if not I will be exempt- can't be fairer than that. As i said earlier - long overdue as long as it is applied correctly.

Then we will have to disagree on this. I won't be paying it.

L1011 · 31-05-2012 9:43pm

tayto lover wrote: »

As Enda Kenny said -

It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home.

- Enda Kenny on house taxes, 1994

At this stage, when I see this quote being dug up, I realise that someone has run out of arguing tactics.

If you're going to deny the official inflation figures, you could at least try to provide some proof to back yourself up.

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 9:49pm

MYOB wrote: »

At this stage, when I see this quote being dug up, I realise that someone has run out of arguing tactics.

If you're going to deny the official inflation figures, you could at least try to provide some proof to back yourself up.

Well now !! When I see the promises that Enda made about not another cent into Anglo, doing away with cronyism, and looking for a write-down I know I am in good company. When he refuses to debate on t.v.3, instead sends on the clowns and hides his Household Tax minister I know I have made a very good decision.

L1011 · 31-05-2012 9:53pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Well now !! When I see the promises that Enda made about not another cent into Anglo, doing away with cronyism, and looking for a write-down I know I am in good company. When he refuses to debate on t.v.3, instead sends on the clowns and hides his Household Tax minister I know I have made a very good decision.

If you honestly think that a Labour or FF led government wouldn't have brought in a property tax, you're delusional.

If you honestly think that a ULA or SF led government would have done anything other than led the country to actual poverty, you're delusional.

You'll be paying the household charge or paying it plus some court fines - one or the other.

gerryo777 · 31-05-2012 9:54pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Then we will have to disagree on this. I won't be paying it.

Still with you tayto!

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 10:09pm

MYOB wrote: »

If you honestly think that a Labour or FF led government wouldn't have brought in a property tax, you're delusional.

If you honestly think that a ULA or SF led government would have done anything other than led the country to actual poverty, you're delusional.

You'll be paying the household charge or paying it plus some court fines - one or the other.

No and won't pay court fines either. So its Mountjoy for me and the other million. I hear they're extending it.

L1011 · 31-05-2012 10:13pm

tayto lover wrote: »

No and won't pay court fines either. So its Mountjoy for me and the other million. I hear they're extending it.

If you think there's a million who haven't paid, you're not particularly good at maths.

If you do end up in a situation of refusing to pay a court fine, you'd likely end up effectively going through a revolving door at Mountjoy. Will be fun trying to go to the US, get certain types of jobs, etc afterwards though. Hence why I'd be willing to lay money on you paying as soon as a final demand comes through.

This is just bin charges Mk2 - a few wannabe heros from the ULA will go to prison, everyone else will pay, end of fight.

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 10:47pm

MYOB wrote: »

If you think there's a million who haven't paid, you're not particularly good at maths.

If you do end up in a situation of refusing to pay a court fine, you'd likely end up effectively going through a revolving door at Mountjoy. Will be fun trying to go to the US, get certain types of jobs, etc afterwards though. Hence why I'd be willing to lay money on you paying as soon as a final demand comes through.

This is just bin charges Mk2 - a few wannabe heros from the ULA will go to prison, everyone else will pay, end of fight.

At my age I have done my travelling. My working days are almost done too. I just will not pay a tax on my home. I have always paid my other taxes but find this a bridge too far. Have never claimed the dole and have hardly any sick days in all my years of employment (two or three I think for an injury).
My bin charges are paid to a private company too.
I have no fear of standing up for what I believe in and if that means Mountjoy then so be it. It will be ironic however that people who see this Household Tax as unjust could end up in Mountjoy but the Bankers, speculators and other friends of the political elite will probably not and it was they who ruined this country.

marienbad · 31-05-2012 10:56pm

tayto lover wrote: »

At my age I have done my travelling. My working days are almost done too. I just will not pay a tax on my home. I have always paid my other taxes but find this a bridge too far. Have never claimed the dole and have hardly any sick days in all my years of employment (two or three I think for an injury).
My bin charges are paid to a private company too.
I have no fear of standing up for what I believe in and if that means Mountjoy then so be it. It will be ironic however that people who see this Household Tax as unjust could end up in Mountjoy but the Bankers, speculators and other friends of the political elite will probably not and it was they who ruined this country.

Will you pay water charges if they come in ?

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 11:03pm

marienbad wrote: »

Will you pay water charges if they come in ?

Yes I will. I will pay for my services.

marienbad · 31-05-2012 11:08pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Yes I will. I will pay for my services.

Did you ( or would you have) paid household rates back in the old days ?

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 11:19pm

marienbad wrote: »

Did you ( or would you have) paid household rates back in the old days ?

No. Not since i bought my first house in 1977.

marienbad · 31-05-2012 11:21pm

tayto lover wrote: »

No. Not since i bought my first house in 1977.

would you have paid them ?

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 11:25pm

marienbad wrote: »

would you have paid them ?

Don't know. I have a big problem with paying a tax on my own property. A property i chose, struggled to pay for, upkeep and furnish over many years.

StillWaters · 31-05-2012 11:27pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Yes I will. I will pay for my services.

You're not a member of your local library, there is no public lighting where you live, or footpaths, or Council leisure centres, community centres? Bizarre!

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 11:29pm

StillWaters wrote: »

You're not a member of your local library, there is no public lighting where you live, or footpaths, or Council leisure centres, community centres? Bizarre!

Exactly. Holes in all the roads and the mobile library doesn't stop near my house. I feel my income tax, P.R.S.I. and car tax has been wasted :rolleyes:

gerryo777 · 31-05-2012 11:34pm

StillWaters wrote: »

You're not a member of your local library, there is no public lighting where you live, or footpaths, or Council leisure centres, community centres? Bizarre!

Bull****e argument.
Do people who don't own their homes and are housed by LA's etc not use these services?

marienbad · 31-05-2012 11:36pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Don't know. I have a big problem with paying a tax on my own property. A property i chose, struggled to pay for, upkeep and furnish over many years.

Any chance your objection is related to the fact that you are retiring soon and your preference for an income tax rise is related to the fact that you will be liable for less .

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 11:38pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

Bull****e argument.
Do people who don't own their homes and are housed by LA's etc not use these services?

Who do you think Enda will send out to apologize to Angela if it's a No vote ? My money is on Lucinda. He definitely won't go himself when he wouldn't go on the Vincent Brown show.

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 11:40pm

marienbad wrote: »

Any chance your objection is related to the fact that you are retiring soon and your preference for an income tax rise is related to the fact that you will be liable for less .

No. As I said it's because I object to a tax on my home.

marienbad · 31-05-2012 11:40pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Who do you think Enda will send out to apologize to Angela if it's a No vote ? My money is on Lucinda. He definitely won't go himself when he wouldn't go on the Vincent Brown show.

You seem to have a big problem with Enda - did he do a Lineker and steal your crisps ??:)

Questionable? · 31-05-2012 11:40pm

Not sure how accurate this is but saw this earlier on the ‘net:

“You won’t get a bill because the charge is a Statute. People need to understand this: A Statute is a “legislated rule of society given the force of law by the consent of the governed.”(Black’s Law Dictionary 4th edition). Who are those it governs? Us, the public.
This household charge is a Statute, otherwise known as an Act of Government and only carries the force of law upon you if you consent to it which means that you are legally obliged to pay if you consent or in other words go on to householdcharge.ie and register. Your silence and inaction will also give the appearance of no consent. If you do not consent, a Statute cannot affect you in any way whatsoever.
The courts know this and the last thing they will do is tell you. In fact they will hide this from you at every opportunity they can. On the other hand, if you tell them, they will accept it because they know it is actually true. According to the above definitions a statutory instrument is a contract. If you register for this “charge” you are consenting to this statute ie: signing the contract. This is why the Government are ASKING the people to register and not just billing them instead.”

gerryo777 · 31-05-2012 11:41pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Who do you think Enda will send out to apologize to Angela if it's a No vote ? My money is on Lucinda. He definitely won't go himself when he wouldn't go on the Vincent Brown show.

Big phil?

tayto lover · 31-05-2012 11:44pm

marienbad wrote: »

You seem to have a big problem with Enda - did he do a Lineker and steal your crisps ??:)

No. He made promises that he had no intention of keeping. He even e-mailed me for my vote promising more junk, as did Phil Hogan. Believe me when I say I have no time for politicians of any hue for many a year. They have dedicated followers but only look after themselves in the end. None of them with a shade of honour at all.

whippet · 01-06-2012 9:12am

Questionable? wrote: »

Not sure how accurate this is but saw this earlier on the ‘net:

“You won’t get a bill because the charge is a Statute. People need to understand this: A Statute is a “legislated rule of society given the force of law by the consent of the governed.”(Black’s Law Dictionary 4th edition). Who are those it governs? Us, the public.
This household charge is a Statute, otherwise known as an Act of Government and only carries the force of law upon you if you consent to it which means that you are legally obliged to pay if you consent or in other words go on to householdcharge.ie and register. Your silence and inaction will also give the appearance of no consent. If you do not consent, a Statute cannot affect you in any way whatsoever.
The courts know this and the last thing they will do is tell you. In fact they will hide this from you at every opportunity they can. On the other hand, if you tell them, they will accept it because they know it is actually true. According to the above definitions a statutory instrument is a contract. If you register for this “charge” you are consenting to this statute ie: signing the contract. This is why the Government are ASKING the people to register and not just billing them instead.”

this is absolute nonsense and it's peddled by the 'Free Men' or what ever they call them selves.

Weylin · 01-06-2012 9:32am

RATM wrote: »

I was just talking to my pensioner aged mother yesterday and had asked her if she paid the household charge. She said she hadn't and also that she didn't intend to, regardless of fines or penalties. She is a completely law abiding citizen (up until now at least), I remember laughing at how mortified she was at once getting caught speeding for doing 56kph in a 50kph zone. Since then she always has one eye on the speedmeter so it doesn't happen again !

Anyway I asked her why she didn't pay, given that she is not one to go around flouting the law, etc. She said it is not the €100 but that she is worried sick about what is coming down the line. Her situation is probably not unlike that of a lot of pensioners in the country- she lives in a large five bedroom house and now all the kids have moved on. It is home to her (and us) so there is no question of her ever downsizing to a 2 bed apartment or something similar.

Her main worry is how they are going to calculate the property tax next year and she is fearful of it being done on square footage of the house and the surrounding gardens, which total about 3/4 of an acre.

It got me thinking that tons of other people are in a very similar situation as my mother. We already have heard a figure of circa €600 mentioned as next years household charge. Ultimately the household charge is going to be somewhere in the region of €1k-€2k per household which would be in line with what citizens in other countries pay, I know a 3 bed semi in Islington, London comes in at £1,300.

My mothers fear is that becuase the house and gardens are on the large side she is going to get hit at the upper end of the €2k range, a sum of money that she just doesn't have lying about the place.

So my questions is specifically to people who have paid the €100 Household Charge. Are you ready and willing to pay a charge (be it next year or thereafter) of €1k-€2k per year ? Or are we going to see even more mass disobedience when those who have paid €100 begin to realise that it is only a small sum compared to what they are expected to pay annually ?

Interested to hear peoples thoughts please.

why dont u pay it ? obviously u are living there, probably rent free as well,and no mortgage repayments ,how long more are you going to freeload off her,

Graces7 · 01-06-2012 10:02am

NB we rent and thus this is for the landlord, who if he tried to add to our already high rent would get short shrift.

After living in the Uk until ten years ago, we are used to rates, water charges tec, but built into the system there are reductions for eg pensioners, the disabled etc on low incomes.
ie means tested.

The system there also is that if you do nto pay, they can claim you assets and property... I was late paying once and got a bailiff's letter saying they would take my sheep and goats, and they did put a lien on my bank account to the amount they said I owed.

Seems that folk objecting spent far more on travelling etc to protest than they would have paying the charge. But then this seems a way of life for some here?

A Question for those who paid the Household Charge

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