After Kenny is gone

Laminations · 10-06-2010 10:08pm #1

Richard Bruton skirted around a question on Primetime of whether he has confidence in Enda Kenny, he has admitted the party is not tapping into the protest mood and getting across their views on political and economic reform. He wouldn't be drawn however on whether he'd stab Kenny in the back to become leader ( I agree with Shane Ross that he's too gentlemanly for that)

My question is, would the people calling for FG to replace Kenny then vote for FG because so many people seem to be put off by Kenny that FG under new leadership should capture 60% of the vote. Or are people just complaining and even after Kenny goes they'll find some other reason not to vote for FG?

dlofnep · 10-06-2010 10:12pm

Despite being a terrible speaker - Is there any Kenny specific policies that make him less qualified than Bruton? I wouldn't like Kenny to lead this state, but I also wouldn't like Bruton to either. What exactly does Bruton bring to the plate than Kenny doesn't - aside from being a better public speaker.

Liam Byrne · 10-06-2010 10:12pm

Laminations wrote: »

My question is, would the people calling for FG to replace Kenny then vote for FG because so many people seem to be put off by Kenny that FG under new leadership should capture 60% of the vote. Or are people just complaining and even after Kenny goes they'll find some other reason not to vote for FG?

I'd have a feeling that it's the latter.

The other point is that good and all as Bruton is, or might be, the fact that - as you and Shane Ross both alluded to - "he's a gentleman" means that I'd be afraid he'd be steamrolled by the same spin machine as regularly seen on boards and as epitomised by Cowen's "those f*&%ers" outburst in the Dáil a while back.

fontanalis · 10-06-2010 10:19pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Despite being a terrible speaker - Is there any Kenny specific policies that make him less qualified than Bruton? I wouldn't like Kenny to lead this state, but I also wouldn't like Bruton to either. What exactly does Bruton bring to the plate than Kenny doesn't - aside from being a better public speaker.

I wouldn't be his biggest fan but sometimes you'd think it was X-Factor or something people were talking about. No-one really could give an answer to why he was so terrible, although his accent came across liek a bad impression.

Liam Byrne · 10-06-2010 10:23pm

fontanalis wrote: »

No-one really could give an answer to why he was so terrible, although his accent came across liek a bad impression.

That didn't stop the far worse (on so many levels) dis dat Be-be-bertie....

.....how come people hold it against Kenny ?

Eliot Rosewater · 10-06-2010 10:26pm

Unlike Liam Byrne, I do think it's a lot down to his personality. But the bigger issue, of which the Kenny problem is but a small subsection, is the overall way Fine Gael have been presenting themselves. They seem to have adopted this half-hearted complacent attitude to politics. Clearly they hope that they won't be handed the poisoned chalice and be subsequently punished by the electorate for solving a problem created by Fianna Fail. But they're only hurting themselves.

I still maintain that if Fine Gael had grabbed the bull by the horns back in 2008 and started a big campaign advertising themselves and pushing a positive message they could have a chance of getting a full majority. In fairness, they're the lead opposition party to the most unpopular government in the history of the state. Anything less than 40% in the polls should be considered pretty bad.

Laminations · 10-06-2010 10:26pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Despite being a terrible speaker - Is there any Kenny specific policies that make him less qualified than Bruton? I wouldn't like Kenny to lead this state, but I also wouldn't like Bruton to either. What exactly does Bruton bring to the plate than Kenny doesn't - aside from being a better public speaker.

Other than being intelligent and eloquent, what qualities do you wish Bruton had that would be necessary to make him a good leader? Bare in mind he also has qualities of honesty, integrity etc that many FFers currently lack

irishh_bob · 10-06-2010 10:27pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Despite being a terrible speaker - Is there any Kenny specific policies that make him less qualified than Bruton? I wouldn't like Kenny to lead this state, but I also wouldn't like Bruton to either. What exactly does Bruton bring to the plate than Kenny doesn't - aside from being a better public speaker.

bruton has a genuine understanding of policy where as kenny is just another populist politician who would rely on civil servants or handlers to feed him , neither are my choice for leader ( leo varadkar is the man ) but at least bruton can be taken seriously when discussing serious matters

fontanalis · 10-06-2010 10:27pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That didn't stop the far worse (on so many levels) dis dat Be-be-bertie....

.....how come people hold it against Kenny ?

Oh I know, dis dat duther. You can go no lower than Bertie. In the US analysts said people thought Bush was someone you could have a beer with and similarily I suppose you could say people saw the everyman in Bertie.
Everymen shouldn't necessarily run countries though.

bmaxi · 10-06-2010 10:32pm

At the risk of repeating myself. Kenny is just not credible, he doesn't inspire confidence and speaks in the Dáil as if he's just read about Irish politics on a postage stamp on the way in on the bus.

dlofnep · 10-06-2010 10:32pm

Laminations wrote: »

Other than being intelligent and eloquent, what qualities do you wish Bruton had that would be necessary to make him a good leader? Bare in mind he also has qualities of honesty, integrity etc that many FFers currently lack

I'm not doubting that Bruton isn't sincere. I just don't subscribe to his political philosophy, and as such - I don't feel he would be a suitable leader. I don't feel that either Bruton or Kenny will matter in the bigger picture - as it would be cross-party Fine Gael politics that would determine the future of the state.

I feel that (and I may be wrong), that some Fine Gael supporters are blaming Enda Kenny for their continuing fall. Maybe Enda is (a) problem, but one person surely can't be responsible for an entire party's demise. At least, Enda hasn't done anything noteworthy in bad taste to cause such a downfall on his own.

In my opinion, many people are not happy with Fine Gael's vision, and don't subscribe to it. At least, let's be honest about it - instead of passing the buck entirely onto Enda Kenny. While I'm not a fan of Fine Gael, or Enda Kenny - I think it's unfair to put the entire blame for their loss of support on him alone. It's worth considering that a large portion of the electorate do not like Fine Gael's proposals. For example, their faircare proposals (of which I asked many questions about, and have yet to receive answers).

Just my opinion.

hmmm · 10-06-2010 10:39pm

dlofnep wrote: »

I feel that (and I may be wrong), that some Fine Gael supporters are blaming Enda Kenny for their continuing fall. Maybe Enda is (a) problem, but one person surely can't be responsible for an entire party's demise. At least, Enda hasn't done anything noteworthy in bad taste to cause such a downfall on his own.

What have FG been doing recently? Moaning about procedural issues in the Dail. No-one except politicians give a damn.

Where are the FG front bench? Other than Bruton tonight I can't think of when I last saw them in the media. How can Coveney be described as a potential leader when we haven't heard from him in years? The FG front bench should be out there working hard telling people what they intend to do, not just attacking everything FF does. Their 100,000 jobs in green energy and whatsits is a pile of crap, bin it.

FG need to get either of Bruton or Yates as leader and they will walk a majority. The front bench is pretty awful, other than Varadkhar I don't know who could replace Kenny.

Laminations · 10-06-2010 10:43pm

bmaxi wrote: »

At the risk of repeating myself. Kenny is just not credible, he doesn't inspire confidence and speaks in the Dáil as if he's just read about Irish politics on a postage stamp on the way in on the bus.

I'm not debating whether Kenny should stay or go, I'm asking if when he is gone will the people who actually cite him as a stumbling block actually vote FG because so many people claim he is what puts them off, then once gone FGs support should sky rocket. But I agree with Liam and imagine people will search for another excuse (not that you have to search to see Kenny is holding them back)

Liam Byrne · 10-06-2010 10:44pm

hmmm wrote: »

What have FG been doing recently? Moaning about procedural issues in the Dail. No-one except politicians give a damn.

Considering that those "procedural issues" are allowing FF to subvert democracy, I think they're perfectly right to highlight and complain about those....

.....in doing so, they're certainly trying to represent me, anyway!

Laminations · 10-06-2010 10:49pm

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm not doubting that Bruton isn't sincere. I just don't subscribe to his political philosophy, and as such - I don't feel he would be a suitable leader. I don't feel that either Bruton or Kenny will matter in the bigger picture - as it would be cross-party Fine Gael politics that would determine the future of the state.

I feel that (and I may be wrong), that some Fine Gael supporters are blaming Enda Kenny for their continuing fall. Maybe Enda is (a) problem, but one person surely can't be responsible for an entire party's demise. At least, Enda hasn't done anything noteworthy in bad taste to cause such a downfall on his own.

In my opinion, many people are not happy with Fine Gael's vision, and don't subscribe to it. At least, let's be honest about it - instead of passing the buck entirely onto Enda Kenny. While I'm not a fan of Fine Gael, or Enda Kenny - I think it's unfair to put the entire blame for their loss of support on him alone. It's worth considering that a large portion of the electorate do not like Fine Gael's proposals. For example, their faircare proposals (of which I asked many questions about, and have yet to receive answers).

Just my opinion.

interestingly your point about not blaming their failure to capitalise in the polls all on Enda was echoed by Bruton on Primetime. He recognises that the party needs to refocus their message and redouble their efforts to get it across. He is not shying away from taking some blame for their lacklustre performance

Absurdum · 10-06-2010 10:49pm

The Irish Times opinion poll, in my opinion anyway, proves that all you need to do is talk the talk to get the upper hand here. Gilmore tops it, just like Bertie did, whilst Kenny and Cowen plummet.

jmayo · 11-06-2010 12:14am

The thing I always find amusing is that when the shi** is once again hitting the fan in ff HQ, there are as many questions being asked about Kenny's leadership as there are about biffos' leadership.

Yesterday three iminent economists/financial experts came out and basically stated that the current leader of the government and the majority party, whilst minister of finance, allowed the banking system operate in a manner which has led to it becoming basically insolvent and having to be bailed out by the taxpayers to the tune of possibly 100 billion.
That is not even mentioning him fanning the flames of the property bubble.

Yet we have a couple of threads questioning the leader of the primary opposition party and his second in command the finance spokesman.

Unfreaking believable.
Just goes to show the real power of ff spin doctors and media hacks.

Absurdum · 11-06-2010 12:17am

jmayo wrote: »

Just goes to show the real power of ff spin doctors and media hacks.

or maybe people have no confidence in Kenny for a reason?

jmayo · 11-06-2010 12:20am

Absurdum wrote: »

or maybe people have no confidence in Kenny for a reason?

Right now would you rather Kenny and Bruton (in their respective positions) in charge or the current encumbents (Yes or No please) ?

Liam Byrne · 11-06-2010 12:36am

There's no denying that it's an indictment of FG that they can't capitalise on the worst and most corrupt government in history.

There is one saving grace for Kenny, and that is the fact that the biggest con-artist of them all - Ahern - was "popular" with a lot of people; therefore it's obvious that the people don't know what actually makes a good leader.

To me, Bruton is the obvious choice as a Minister for Finance that actually knows what he's doing, and if Kenny is a proper organiser and can get things done, rather than being a fake "all men to all people" then I'd prefer that pairing.

But apparently a large proportion of the electorate don't appear to put competence and ethics as high priorities, preferring to vote for someone they could go for a pint with.

Personally, I don't care whether I could go for a pint with a Taoiseach; I've enough friends to do that with, and the Taoiseach's job is to ensure that I can afford to still go for the odd pint (among other things).

Kenny is a victim of the Ahern era, where false public persona took precedence over ability, ethics and actual leadership.

So FG have a call to make; educate the electorate or bite the bullet and make the change.

It's tough on Kenny, particularly given the chronic and objectionable performance of Cowen in two roles, but I suspect that he - Kenny, not Cowen - will see this and do what's good for the country, thereby further highlighting the difference between himself and Cowen.

The fact that FG aren't capitalising on FF's track record - particularly when the best option - Gilmore - is hampered due to being tied to the unions and PS, is a stunning indictment of the electorate, though.

Laminations · 11-06-2010 2:38am

jmayo wrote: »

The thing I always find amusing is that when the shi** is once again hitting the fan in ff HQ, there are as many questions being asked about Kenny's leadership as there are about biffos' leadership.

Yesterday three iminent economists/financial experts came out and basically stated that the current leader of the government and the majority party, whilst minister of finance, allowed the banking system operate in a manner which has led to it becoming basically insolvent and having to be bailed out by the taxpayers to the tune of possibly 100 billion.
That is not even mentioning him fanning the flames of the property bubble.

Yet we have a couple of threads questioning the leader of the primary opposition party and his second in command the finance spokesman.

Unfreaking believable.
Just goes to show the real power of ff spin doctors and media hacks.

Whatever about other Kenny threads, but

1. I started this thread and I've been vaccinated against FF spin so I'm immune to their bullsh1t.

2. This thread isn't about Kennys leadership, I'm not trying to debate that or question Brutons qualities as a possible new leader, although on both Primetime and Vincent Browne tonight I heard the clearest indications that Bruton is waiting in the wings. I'm questioning those who say Kenny is preventing them from voting FG. Is this really true, as in if Kenny went would they actually vote FG or find another reason not to? Kenny isn't an issue for me in voting for FG so I want to know if his stepping will influence the votes of a significant number that complain about his leadership

hallelujajordan · 11-06-2010 4:33am

Laminations wrote: »

I'm not debating whether Kenny should stay or go, I'm asking if when he is gone will the people who actually cite him as a stumbling block actually vote FG because so many people claim he is what puts them off, then once gone FGs support should sky rocket. But I agree with Liam and imagine people will search for another excuse (not that you have to search to see Kenny is holding them back)

That sounds a little paranoid. . Why would anyone need an excuse not to vote for FG ?

Sleepy · 11-06-2010 10:25am

I like Kenny and think he'd be a major improvement on Cowen but at this stage, I think he needs to step aside. His personaliity is hurting FG so badly that even people like myself who detest FF will consider giving voting for them ahead of FG in order to keep Labour/The Unions away from power.

irishh_bob · 11-06-2010 10:44am

hmmm wrote: »

What have FG been doing recently? Moaning about procedural issues in the Dail. No-one except politicians give a damn.

Where are the FG front bench? Other than Bruton tonight I can't think of when I last saw them in the media. How can Coveney be described as a potential leader when we haven't heard from him in years? The FG front bench should be out there working hard telling people what they intend to do, not just attacking everything FF does. Their 100,000 jobs in green energy and whatsits is a pile of crap, bin it.

FG need to get either of Bruton or Yates as leader and they will walk a majority. The front bench is pretty awful, other than Varadkhar I don't know who could replace Kenny.

ivan yates leaving politics was a disaster for both fine gael and the country , presentation is hugely important nowadays , much more so than policy ( as eamon gilmore has shown ) and kenny simply doesnt come across well , under yates , fine gael would indeed walk to an overall majority , why wouldnt they , fianna fail afterall have lost 25 points since the last election , the swing vote won it for fianna fail in 2007 , most of that swing vote is now unemployed yet ( because of inda ) has not crossed over to fine gael

irishh_bob · 11-06-2010 10:50am

jmayo wrote: »

The thing I always find amusing is that when the shi** is once again hitting the fan in ff HQ, there are as many questions being asked about Kenny's leadership as there are about biffos' leadership.

Yesterday three iminent economists/financial experts came out and basically stated that the current leader of the government and the majority party, whilst minister of finance, allowed the banking system operate in a manner which has led to it becoming basically insolvent and having to be bailed out by the taxpayers to the tune of possibly 100 billion.
That is not even mentioning him fanning the flames of the property bubble.

Yet we have a couple of threads questioning the leader of the primary opposition party and his second in command the finance spokesman.

Unfreaking believable.
Just goes to show the real power of ff spin doctors and media hacks.

the goverment party of the day has been found guilty of allowing the economy to crash and burn and has subsequently seen a massive collapse in thier support, yet despite all this , the main opposition party has failed to capitalise , how can anyone be genuinly surprised when questions are then asked of the main opposition parties leader , thier,s no hackery about it

Liam Byrne · 11-06-2010 11:01am

jmayo wrote: »

Yet we have a couple of threads questioning the leader of the primary opposition party and his second in command the finance spokesman.

Unfreaking believable.

I thanked the post, jmayo, but I do have an issue with this.......the fact that FG haven't capitalised IS a discussion point.

That said, I'd question why the polls were released on the same week as the reports, which just happened to be the same week as the FF TDs were skiving off on early holidays......

A poll next week, following the reports sinking in and (some) TV and radio shows forcing FF to tow the party line in defending the indefensible, would make a lot more sense.

jmayo · 11-06-2010 11:23am

Liam Byrne wrote: »

There's no denying that it's an indictment of FG that they can't capitalise on the worst and most corrupt government in history.

There is one saving grace for Kenny, and that is the fact that the biggest con-artist of them all - Ahern - was "popular" with a lot of people; therefore it's obvious that the people don't know what actually makes a good leader.

To me, Bruton is the obvious choice as a Minister for Finance that actually knows what he's doing, and if Kenny is a proper organiser and can get things done, rather than being a fake "all men to all people" then I'd prefer that pairing.

But apparently a large proportion of the electorate don't appear to put competence and ethics as high priorities, preferring to vote for someone they could go for a pint with.

Personally, I don't care whether I could go for a pint with a Taoiseach; I've enough friends to do that with, and the Taoiseach's job is to ensure that I can afford to still go for the odd pint (among other things).

Kenny is a victim of the Ahern era, where false public persona took precedence over ability, ethics and actual leadership.

So FG have a call to make; educate the electorate or bite the bullet and make the change.

It's tough on Kenny, particularly given the chronic and objectionable performance of Cowen in two roles, but I suspect that he - Kenny, not Cowen - will see this and do what's good for the country, thereby further highlighting the difference between himself and Cowen.

The fact that FG aren't capitalising on FF's track record - particularly when the best option - Gilmore - is hampered due to being tied to the unions and PS, is a stunning indictment of the electorate, though.

I believe that FG are falling in the polls thanks to fact that public sector and even non public sector voters believe they will want to bring in drastic cuts if they get in.
Also the ff spin machine (with major thanks to ffers like tubridy) is working overtime to continously snipe at Kenny.
I actually like Kenny, I know that draws derision from many, but he is very personable in small groups whereas on the likes of the telly he comes across as contrived and desperate.
He managed to reorganise a party that was low in moral and competed against one of the most popular taoiseachs ever (well lots of the Irish electorate thought so) who had a huge supposedly thriving economic miracle (which I know most sensible people knew was a sham).
Oh and he is honest and ethical which would definetly rule out him being in ff.

The other major thing is I want Richard Bruton to be the country's finance minister and by having him as leader his ability is lost to that portfolio.
Who else as leader of FG ?
Varadker may be popular with some, but to many he is too far right and too inepxerienced.
Hayes, I don't think so.
Lots view Coveney as some great shining light, but I don't think is all he is cracked up to be.
Reilly maybe one day but again I would hope he gets his teeth into health.
Yes Ivan Yates would have been very good, but he is no longer around.

Feck I'll go for another Mayo man.
No not Johno (who has to win All-Ireland first), but Michael Ring

Himself, jack neddy o'keefe and john o'donoghue could have great Dáil debates.

On the other side Gilmore and Labour are up in polls thanks to Gilmore's spiffy speeches always shown on RTE news programs about the Dáil and the fact that public sector voters are moving towards them since they are only ones not offering the facts that they will have to face cuts.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

That sounds a little paranoid. . Why would anyone need an excuse not to vote for FG ?

Ah you're back but only on a thread that discusses the opposition.
Why not come back on one of the threads discussing the fact that three imminent financial experts have come out and lambasted the performanc of both the previous ff led government and especially the performance of the current ff and government leader whilst he held the position of minister of finance ?

Banned Account · 11-06-2010 11:35am

I see an issue with the lack of passion displayed by Enda Kenny when he's speaking. To my mind, if someone can't display passion on a subject, can we really be expected to accept that they care deeply?

At this point in time, I really think we need someone who can display the fact that they have a deep passion for improving our current situation. Joan Burton, is in the same camp as Kenny in this regard. Whilst both talk a deal of sense at times, neither come across as if they are doing anything other than spouting out something they memorised earlier.

There is an argument of course that both are excellent organisers and even thinkers, but this could be done from a back room position. A political party needs a leader with whom the voters can connect, Kenny is not this man. I would like to vote FG as I believe that they have a chance in improving our situation, I think Bruton genuinely can offer some positivity, my main problem though, is that here we have a party who tell us that they care enough about our country and have the ideas, to put us in a better place, yet the will stand behind a leader who could quite possibly prevent them from getting into the position which would allow them to implement these.

So, from where I am sitting, it looks like FG are putting party loyalty ahead of the people - I have an issue voting for the same circus run by different clowns. If they installed Bruton as leader, it would indicate for me that they are willing to do what it takes to fix the situation in the country, until then, I'll continue to sit on my fence.

bmaxi · 11-06-2010 11:43am

Laminations wrote: »

I'm not debating whether Kenny should stay or go, I'm asking if when he is gone will the people who actually cite him as a stumbling block actually vote FG because so many people claim he is what puts them off, then once gone FGs support should sky rocket. But I agree with Liam and imagine people will search for another excuse (not that you have to search to see Kenny is holding them back)[

I, certainly would have no difficulty in citing Enda Kenny as the main reason why I wouldn't give FG my NO. 1 vote for the reasons I stated but it's not as simple as that.
In my electoral area the FG TD. is one of those pet hates of mine, a dynastic TD. I had very little confidence in his father's abilities and have equally as little in his. The party, as a whole, does not inspire confidence, the population is disillusioned with politicians and they have no faith in FG to right the wrongs of FF .
FG, like FF need a good shake up, starting with Kenny.

nacho libre · 11-06-2010 12:58pm

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm not doubting that Bruton isn't sincere. I just don't subscribe to his political philosophy, and as such - I don't feel he would be a suitable leader. I don't feel that either Bruton or Kenny will matter in the bigger picture - as it would be cross-party Fine Gael politics that would determine the future of the state.

I feel that (and I may be wrong), that some Fine Gael supporters are blaming Enda Kenny for their continuing fall. Maybe Enda is (a) problem, but one person surely can't be responsible for an entire party's demise. At least, Enda hasn't done anything noteworthy in bad taste to cause such a downfall on his own.

In my opinion, many people are not happy with Fine Gael's vision, and don't subscribe to it. At least, let's be honest about it - instead of passing the buck entirely onto Enda Kenny. While I'm not a fan of Fine Gael, or Enda Kenny - I think it's unfair to put the entire blame for their loss of support on him alone. It's worth considering that a large portion of the electorate do not like Fine Gael's proposals. For example, their faircare proposals (of which I asked many questions about, and have yet to receive answers).

Just my opinion.

wasn't his performance in the debate with Ahern the main reason FF won the last election? the fact is with Fianna Fails unprecedented unpopularity, FG should be close to a full majority were an election to take place now.

when you have people coming out and saying the following "Brian Cowen is a disaster, but i cannot bring myself to vote for Enda Kenny as leader of this country"
i think that says it all. he just don't convince people that he knows what he is doing.

Laminations · 11-06-2010 3:29pm

nacho libre wrote: »

.

when you have people coming out and saying the following "Brian Cowen is a disaster, but i cannot bring myself to vote for Enda Kenny as leader of this country"
i think that says it all. he just don't convince people that he knows what he is doing.

This is what I want to explore. I suppose a poll would have been better than a thread because a thread gets dragged into debating Kenny as party leader (which has been done to death elsewhere). What I want to do is much simpler, I want to quantify the number of votes that would be brought in by Kenny stepping aside. The question is 'if you currently wouldn't vote for FG (which rules out people like me,Liam Byrne, jmayo etc), would you be likely to vote for them if Kenny stood aside. If the No's greatly outweigh the Yes's (i.e. If his detractors still wouldn't vote for FG) then Kenny shouldn't stand aside but if it's the opposite and he truly is a significant stumbling block for voters then FG need to have a serious internal debate

Liam Byrne · 11-06-2010 4:13pm

Laminations wrote: »

The question is 'if you currently wouldn't vote for FG (which rules out people like me,Liam Byrne, jmayo etc), would you be likely to vote for them if Kenny stood aside. If the No's greatly outweigh the Yes's (i.e. If his detractors still wouldn't vote for FG) then Kenny shouldn't stand aside but if it's the opposite and he truly is a significant stumbling block for voters then FG need to have a serious internal debate

I can see exactly where you're coming from, Laminations, but it did trigger another thought in my head.

If Kenny and FG are adamant that they are "right" (as distinct from just being "less wrong than FF") then surely abandoning Kenny just because enough of the electorate are happy to condone corruption and less firm convictions would be a sell-out, and thereby possibly lose some of the existing support ?

Basically, I've no interest in an X-factor popularity contest.....I want an actual fair, ethical and organisationally-sound leader who can motivate people, even if his strong point isn't soundbytes and ducking schoolboy bully tactics.

Just a thought (because yes, practicalities do come into the equation too), but it struck me as I at first nodded in agreement and then went "hang on a sec...."

T runner · 11-06-2010 5:10pm

jmayo wrote: »

The thing I always find amusing is that when the shi** is once again hitting the fan in ff HQ, there are as many questions being asked about Kenny's leadership as there are about biffos' leadership.

Yesterday three iminent economists/financial experts came out and basically stated that the current leader of the government and the majority party, whilst minister of finance, allowed the banking system operate in a manner which has led to it becoming basically insolvent and having to be bailed out by the taxpayers to the tune of possibly 100 billion.
That is not even mentioning him fanning the flames of the property bubble.

Yet we have a couple of threads questioning the leader of the primary opposition party and his second in command the finance spokesman.

Unfreaking believable.
Just goes to show the real power of ff spin doctors and media hacks.

Yes thats it. Clearly FF spin doctors at work.

The oppositions performance can be scrutinised as well as the Governments.
Its fair.

Im sure youll blame Sligo's hammering of Mayo last Friday on FF spin doctors also?

jmayo · 11-06-2010 6:57pm

T runner wrote: »

Yes thats it. Clearly FF spin doctors at work.

The oppositions performance can be scrutinised as well as the Governments.
Its fair.

Im sure youll blame Sligo's hammering of Mayo last Friday on FF spin doctors also?

You can scrutinise the oposition's performance all you want, but so far they have not cost the taxpayers, both present and future, of this country millions nevermind billions.

Who was in government and who is in government ?

The opposition have not been in charge of the dept of finance and no matter how you try and spin it the man who was in charge of that dept during the worse excesses, most construction related tax incentives, highest increases in public sector spending and most inept regulation is now the leader of ff and the government.

Mayo lost to Sligo because they were sh**e, simple fact.
And fair dues to Sligo.

stumpypeeps · 11-06-2010 7:08pm

I'm a floating voter by and large, from my perspective, I will not back FG on the basis of the calamitous leadership offered from Kenny. I am sure as a party operator he's exemplery, however, his performance in the media clearly highlights the potential for disaster should he be made leader.

As horrible as FF in general have been, I get a clearer sense of competency from Lenihan and Cowan. Bruton is ok, but Kenny is worrying. Just from my perspective.

Liam Byrne · 11-06-2010 7:10pm

stumpypeeps wrote: »

I'm a floating voter by and large, from my perspective, I will not back FG on the basis of the calamitous leadership offered from Kenny. I am sure as a party operator he's exemplery, however, his performance in the media clearly highlights the potential for disaster should he be made leader.

As horrible as FF in general have been, I get a clearer sense of competency from Lenihan and Cowan. Bruton is ok, but Kenny is worrying. Just from my perspective.

Sorry, but I find that hard to believe.

You claim that Kenny has been bad in the media, and simultaneously claim that you get a sense of competency from Lenihan and Cowen, despite their many, many appearances in the media lying through their teeth and mentioning Lehman Bros at every opportunity ?

maynooth_rules · 11-06-2010 7:42pm

Why is this being made such an issue of. TV3 spent 5 minutes talking about the leadership of FG, and not a thing about the fact that the leader of this country is supported at the moment by 18 in every 100 people, and his party is supported by 17 in every 100 people. FF are almost getting away with these beyond bad figures and it is somehow the figures of one of the opposition parties, who some argue are not as high as they should be that somehow has become the news story of this poll

maynooth_rules · 11-06-2010 7:48pm

stumpypeeps wrote: »

I'm a floating voter by and large, from my perspective, I will not back FG on the basis of the calamitous leadership offered from Kenny. I am sure as a party operator he's exemplery, however, his performance in the media clearly highlights the potential for disaster should he be made leader.

As horrible as FF in general have been, I get a clearer sense of competency from Lenihan and Cowan. Bruton is ok, but Kenny is worrying. Just from my perspective.

Competency from Cowen!!!! I am sorry now but you are talking complete and utter rubbish if you somehow get a vibe of competency from him

Laminations · 11-06-2010 9:01pm

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Why is this being made such an issue of. TV3 spent 5 minutes talking about the leadership of FG, and not a thing about the fact that the leader of this country is supported at the moment by 18 in every 100 people, and his party is supported by 17 in every 100 people. FF are almost getting away with these beyond bad figures and it is somehow the figures of one of the opposition parties, who some argue are not as high as they should be that somehow has become the news story of this poll

You are right, the media should be breathing down the governments neck. I don't want to get hung up on FG, I'm simply trying to prove a point - the people complaining about Kenny would never vote for FG anyway. They are the type of people who think FF is competent, and are using Kenny as a distraction from the governments failings.

Irlandese · 11-06-2010 10:17pm

irishh_bob wrote: »

bruton has a genuine understanding of policy where as kenny is just another populist politician who would rely on civil servants or handlers to feed him , neither are my choice for leader ( leo varadkar is the man ) but at least bruton can be taken seriously when discussing serious matters

Varadkar is as much up to his neck in the bankers/builders trough as the average FF
cannon fodder. What we need are rules like the one once (still?) applied by the green party in Germany, with any politician sitting just once in any political seat. They rotated all cxandidates to avoid corruption. Jesus, what a change that would have made in Ireland.
It still could..................

bored and fussy · 11-06-2010 10:39pm

I believe enda kenny is a very bad leader, just listen, listen to him always complaining and blaming, everyday it is something or other no question of national interest or anything like that, no, he just wants to get into power. The sickening thing is he would have done the same as FF had he been in power over the last few years, and to make matters worse he would do the same as FF are doing now if he got into power.
I could not bring myself to vote for this man and if anyone is in any doubt about his lack of sincerety just listen to him on the confidence motion next week, me thinks he should look in the mirror. I think Bruton should strike while the iron is hot. But on the other hand Inda kenny is the best thing that FF has going for them.

Liam Byrne · 11-06-2010 10:53pm

bored and fussy wrote: »

I believe enda kenny is a very bad leader, just listen, listen to him always complaining and blaming, everyday it is something or other no question of national interest or anything like that, no, he just wants to get into power.

Sorry ? Complaining and blaming FF for refusing to hold by-elections and refusing to discuss the reports is somehow not "in the national interest" ?

News to me

bored and fussy wrote: »

The sickening thing is he would have done the same as FF had he been in power over the last few years, and to make matters worse he would do the same as FF are doing now if he got into power.

The sickening thing is that we'll never know what he would have done.

bored and fussy wrote: »

I could not bring myself to vote for this man

So can we ask what "man" you could bring yourself to vote for ?

bored and fussy · 11-06-2010 10:59pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Sorry ? Complaining and blaming FF for refusing to hold by-elections and refusing to discuss the reports is somehow not "in the national interest" ?

News to me

The sickening thing is that we'll never know what he would have done.

So can we ask what "man" you could bring yourself to vote for ?

Do you know something i will probably vote independent, and it goes against the grain to have a motley crew of party half party and independents as we have now. But please not Enda Kenny

bored and fussy · 11-06-2010 11:05pm

Yes we do, we know exactly what he would have done and what he would do if the electorate were silly enough to believe him. take the expenses debacle just last week we had them all at it again and who but James Reilly up to his tonsils and unavailable for comment, and did Enda Kenny complain about that?
No he did not. No difference. he would be exactly the same only worse for his arrogance.

nacho libre · 11-06-2010 11:16pm

Laminations wrote: »

You are right, the media should be breathing down the governments neck. I don't want to get hung up on FG, I'm simply trying to prove a point - the people complaining about Kenny would never vote for FG anyway. They are the type of people who think FF is competent, and are using Kenny as a distraction from the governments failings.

I don't mean to be harsh as Kenny seems to be a genuine guy, and as has been said is a great organiser, but he regularly shoots himself in the foot with his public utterances without the FF spin machine having to do anything. so rather than spin doctors shaping/manfacturing the perception of him they are captialising on the public's perception of him.
I definitely think there is quite a few people who would vote for FG if Enda Kenny was replaced. Of course there are some ff loyalists using deflection tactics to take the focus off Cowen, but again if Kenny was a better performer this wouldn't work.

12-06-2010 7:37am

The main reason both FG & Kenny just can't get acceptance from the public is that they simply do not off an alternative.

Name 5 FG politicians that you could see as Taosaich / Tanaiste or even as a senior minister?

Kenny - no, Bruton - possibly, Varadka - NO (he gets Sooo many facts wrong that his mouth is oversized due to number of times he's got his fott stuck in it), Hayes - nice guy, but no presence, coveney - possibly, but unheard from recently. Michael ring - possibly. Lucinda creiton - possibly Haven't heard from any others recently.

Do the same for labour. Gilmore - yes, Tommy Broughan - possibly, roisin shorthall - possibly, ivan bacik (assuming she's elected - yes, alex white - if elected, ruari quinn - yes, joan burton - annoying, but yes, michael d - of course, pat rabitte, jan o sullivan, willie penrose - all good too. Then yoiu also have liz mc manus & brendan howlin.

Basically most sitting labour TD's would be suitable for office, are well known and have ability to govern. - The advantage they have is they are allowed to speak to the press, they're articulate and they have the confidence of the person in the street.

Unfortunately for FG, they don't seem to be allowed to open their mouths and too many times when they do they get it wrong / wrong timing. They have no depth in their ranks and the old guard controls everything. There seems to be no confidence about them and this comes out in both the way they have approached the leadership issue (got rid of dukes far too early, and have left kenny far too long), so until they get an air of confidence similar to labour (or even FF who seem to be straightening their backs at this stage) they will continue to fall back in polls.

irishh_bob · 12-06-2010 9:50am

91011 wrote: »

The main reason both FG & Kenny just can't get acceptance from the public is that they simply do not off an alternative.

Name 5 FG politicians that you could see as Taosaich / Tanaiste or even as a senior minister?

Kenny - no, Bruton - possibly, Varadka - NO (he gets Sooo many facts wrong that his mouth is oversized due to number of times he's got his fott stuck in it), Hayes - nice guy, but no presence, coveney - possibly, but unheard from recently. Michael ring - possibly. Lucinda creiton - possibly Haven't heard from any others recently.

Do the same for labour. Gilmore - yes, Tommy Broughan - possibly, roisin shorthall - possibly, ivan bacik (assuming she's elected - yes, alex white - if elected, ruari quinn - yes, joan burton - annoying, but yes, michael d - of course, pat rabitte, jan o sullivan, willie penrose - all good too. Then yoiu also have liz mc manus & brendan howlin.

Basically most sitting labour TD's would be suitable for office, are well known and have ability to govern. - The advantage they have is they are allowed to speak to the press, they're articulate and they have the confidence of the person in the street.

Unfortunately for FG, they don't seem to be allowed to open their mouths and too many times when they do they get it wrong / wrong timing. They have no depth in their ranks and the old guard controls everything. There seems to be no confidence about them and this comes out in both the way they have approached the leadership issue (got rid of dukes far too early, and have left kenny far too long), so until they get an air of confidence similar to labour (or even FF who seem to be straightening their backs at this stage) they will continue to fall back in polls.

is thier meant to be some kind of objectivity in your short list of who could be a suitable taoiseach from the labour party :rolleyes:

Liam Byrne · 12-06-2010 10:41am

nacho libre wrote: »

I...but he regularly shoots himself in the foot with his public utterances without the FF spin machine having to do anything

This is one thing that I don't understand, though. Cowen and Lenihan (and indeed most of those trotted out over the past year when apologist bluffers / liars were required, as seen on PrimeTime's intro) regularly put both feet in it with blatant lies and mistruths, and so the FG spin machine (or indeed Kenny) shouldn't really "have to do anything" either.....the con should be obvious.

Is it that FF supporters are more blinkered and potential FG supporters (because they're more objective) are less forgiving ?

Irlandese · 12-06-2010 12:43pm

The key question is why the same old corrupt caste are elected time after time.
It is the same old story with the tenants tugging their forelocks for the landlord
or the dublin gurriers doing it for the merchant classes.
Are we genetically tied to being slaves and sheep or do we just lack the courage to
try democracy and vote for new, young, one-term only, politicians every time.
Experience in politics only corrupts. The civil service is there to explain the ins and outs
of how to do whatever the politicians want. It is getting honest politicians in the first place that seems to defy us.
My votes from now on are only going to people in politics for thefirst time to SERVE not be served by us sheep.
Forget your beauty contest limited to the same old corrupt old goats. Pick local community leaders, who have no links to political parties and certainly none to drug-controlling former or still paramilitaries, an even worse cancer than the old goats.

12-06-2010 1:21pm

irishh_bob wrote: »

is thier meant to be some kind of objectivity in your short list of who could be a suitable taoiseach from the labour party :rolleyes:

This is the biggest error that FG & their supporters make - they are so unsure about themselves that whenever someone makes a suggestion, they automatically assume that that person has a personal agenda for saying that.

No - I'm not a Labour voter, but like many 1995 - 2008 FF voters, I'd probably vote aganst FF if there was an election in the morning. - Previously I voted FG and even canvassed for Olivia Mitchel & Alan Shatter.

When I look at FG, all I see is a group of people who attack everything but rarely come up with good proposals - though their social welfare proposals are quite good (unfortunately the only thing of note for many years) - whereas Labour continue to argue the point rather than the man, and seem to have the nations interest at heart rather than scoring political points.

Thats how it comes across to joe public - I'd be your classic undecided voter, and there is absolutely nothing whatsoever that would entice me to vote FG at the moment. If FG themselves start believeing in themselves and each individual member makes themselves be heard, then things might change. But they absolutely must change leadeship becasue if cowen goes and Micheal Martin / Dermot ahern take over in FF, it will be a whole new ballgame.

nacho libre · 12-06-2010 3:41pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

This is one thing that I don't understand, though. Cowen and Lenihan (and indeed most of those trotted out over the past year when apologist bluffers / liars were required, as seen on PrimeTime's intro) regularly put both feet in it with blatant lies and mistruths, and so the FG spin machine (or indeed Kenny) shouldn't really "have to do anything" either.....the con should be obvious.

Is it that FF supporters are more blinkered and potential FG supporters (because they're more objective) are less forgiving ?

well, yes ff loyalists ten to be disingenous. i think they know deep down that if the opposition were in power the staunch defense they use for FF would suddenly not be applicable. their line would be "Fine Gael are a disaster, look at the mess they have made of things once they got power"
a lot of people would have fallen for it, because they don't follow the logical sequence of events- like keen observers of politics tend to do.
that's why it was a blessing in disguise FG didn't win the last election because the party would have been obliterated for years

as for potential FG voters, i think they acknowledge Cowen's faults, but many have admiration for Lenihan.
now to you this is down to the FF spin machine, but if you watch interviews with Brian Lenihan he is able to think on his feet and doesn't come out with cringeworthy statement like "i'm going to be myself".

in the final analysis Kenny is simply put a lousy salesman - he simply doesn't convince people that he is leadership material.

so rather than the electorate endorsing FF they simply have no confidence in the alternative thanks to Kenny.
A good leader should be able inspire confidence in his followers even if he privately is full of uncertanity. He should be able to think on his feet, be charismatic, and have a commanding presence whereby his words resonate with people when he speaks.
Can you honestly say you recognise any of these attributes in Enda Kenny.

After Kenny is gone

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