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Cowen - Brazen, stupid or both?

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    #62
    edellc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭edellc


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    Isn't it ironic that the Japanese Prime Minister resigned just a couple of weeks ago over not being able to deliver on election promises yet Cowen (as minister of Finance and then Taoiseach) presided over the most disasterous government in the history of the state sending this country rocketing to the poorhouse and then been condemned by the current Central Bank chief and 2 outside experts in scathing reports yet he thinks he's qualified to still lead this country?

    If the man had one atom of decency in his body he would do the decent thing and resign and take his government of incompetent yes-men and women with him.

    I agree he does need to do the right thing but since he announced yesterday that he is going to see out the full term in office proves he hasnt an ounce of decency in his body
    What I want to see is what has happened in England since Cameron took over the true extent of trouble that england are in is slowly coming out if Cowen is allowed to stay in a second longer I dread to think of what more damage he will do and feel sick at the taught of what any following government will announce regarding the true extent of the mess FF created
    Whatever this country is facing now is nothing to what will be announced should another party get into the Dail


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    #63
    bored and fussy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭bored and fussy


    sorry, how will that make anything better i just want them to get on with putting it right and lets all get back to work. They are paid very well too well in fact so make them work for it.
    Sorry is just and empty gesture and i am not in the mood for that.


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    #64
    edellc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭edellc


    bored and fussy wrote: »
    sorry, how will that make anything better i just want them to get on with putting it right and lets all get back to work. They are paid very well too well in fact so make them work for it.
    Sorry is just and empty gesture and i am not in the mood for that.

    I agree they are too well paid and need to make it work and sorry is an empty gesture :(
    However I dont think they have the know how or ability to really change and sort out the mess they and their buddies created we need someone with a backbone maybe it isnt gilmore or kenny but i have a lot of respect for richard burton and him as finance minister or leader of our country would be much welcomed by me


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    #65
    zootroid
    Registered Users Posts: 784 ✭✭✭zootroid


    scr123 wrote: »
    When it comes to brazen and stupid

    Brazen Gilmore - does nothing and says nothing and sits in the Dail bunker sneering and smearing his superiors

    Stupid Kenny - we all know the reasons for that


    Now look at the two man teams to run the country

    Cowen + Lenihan

    Kenny + Bruton

    Gilmore + Burton

    17% of the electorate still recognise intelligence. Another 17% of the intelligent electorate are angry at the moment but will know what way to vote come the election

    Brazen and stupid are people who have not won an election for 30 years and have lost the last 6 elections

    God bless Cowen and Ahern for giving us 10 years of prosperity we only dreamed of in our turbulent past !

    The Celtic Tiger is regarded as occurring between 1994 and 2001. So it was the policies of the government of the late 80's and early to mid 90's that helped create the conditions for the economic growth seen during this time.

    But since 2001 Bertie and Cowen introduced policies that saw our economy becoming reliant on contruction, we weren't becoming rich, merely living off borrowed money. It is precisely because of their policies that we are in this mess.

    I have no respect for Cowen. He talks about having made tough decisions, but he hasn't. Just before Christmas he was going to cave into the unions, only for the public outcry, and Lenihan decided to introduce cuts. He has refused to take responsibility for his actions. He says he does, but if he accepted responsibility he would have to resign. Aside from his role as finance minister that helped cause this mess, I don't think he is up to the job of Taoiseach. He does nothing to inspire confidence. So, because of his performance while finance minister, and his performance since becoming Taoiseach, he has to go.

    I quite like Lenihan, I think he's very intelligent, but I don't think he is suited to finance. I think he would make a good Taoiseach, but unfortunately that would mean FF being in power again. And as they have been in power for so long, they have become detached from the needs of the country, and are only interested in clinging to power. Afterall, power corrupts. We need a change of government if for this reason alone, I think it's unhealthy for any democracy for the same party to be in power for so long.

    With regards to Labour, they are too left leaning, so that would be something that would discourage me from voting for them. I can see them placating the public sector unions, and not taking action to reduce our expenditure. But they calling the actions of the government (NAMA etc) for what they are - a bailout of their friends.

    As for FG, they have a number of TDs that I quite like. I think Richard Bruton would make an excellent finance minister. I'm not sure about Kenny being a good Taoiseach, but given how corrupt Bertie was, and how clueless Cowen is, I think he would be an improvement.

    As for the greens, they have been shown up to be a joke of a party. FF have simply run rings around them. I can see a lot of their supporters being disillusioned, and they'll be wiped out at the next election.


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    #66
    Irlandese
    Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Irlandese


    When will people begin to realise that Cowen is just the frontman for all those lucky FF, FG, Lab etc etc politicains who voted for Xmas for us turkeys ?
    In english_ Politicians have been getting privelidged treatment from the banks for themselves and their families for years.
    In recent times, many politicains were direct partners in shadowy business and property deals funded by the banks for speculation.
    The same politicians invented the banking bail-outs to not so much protect the bankers as to protect themselves from being fleeced by said banks if the banks had to follow the borrowers for re-payment.
    The politicos and the developers were in very close cahoots, either getting bribes or "consultancy " payments or getting family members or lovers or business associates on-board as direct partners, to get a bigger pay-off.
    Being a politician in Ireland is synonemous with getting onto a great big gravy train.
    Someone has to pay- guess who?
    No-one must go to jail- ergo- no enquiries into the un-ethical (and illegal almost everywhere else on earth) links between politicians and said business and interest partners.

    Forget the waffle re who is stupid etc etc. Cowan and pals of all political hues are playing us all for fools and we are letting them.

    Why no serious fraud squad enquiries into my allegations above?
    Stupid question. If they are pushed to it, they can always start another tribunal, a quick-sand for the facts !


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    #67
    Stabshauptmann
    Registered Users Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    Sizzler wrote: »
    Sorry Brian but I for one have had enough, I didn't ****ing vote for you, nobody did so give it a rest and get out.
    Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »
    How on earth can you say he has a mandate from the people?? From who, apart from the voters of Offaly?

    Are you two for fcuking real?!

    Go educate yourselves on what type of democracy we have, and on election results.

    The government has a mandate because it won the last election.
    The government serves a term, this allows it to act in the national interest without having to bow to mob pressure on a daily basis.
    Brian Cowen was elected leader by the majority of elected representatives.
    This is how our system works.


    Its actually very funny, as much as you hate Cowen & Co. it is exactly this type of idiotic sheep behaviour, of blindly accepting and repeating tabloid rubbish and quips for which ever politicians are fashionable at the time that got the country in the mess its in.

    What would make sense, would be to call for those 3 by elections, and see if the government still has a mandate.


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    #68
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Stabshauptmann wrote: »
    Are you two for fcuking real?!

    Go educate yourselves on what type of democracy we have, and on election results.

    The government has a mandate because it won the last election.
    The government serves a term, this allows it to act in the national interest without having to bow to mob pressure on a daily basis.
    Brian Cowen was elected leader by the majority of elected representatives.
    This is how our system works.

    Er.......the sheep voted for the catchily-named "Bertie's Team" in the last election.....

    ......that wasn't our call, it was FF's. A stupid call, but a fact.

    So - as a result of that stupid move by FF - it could be argued that once Ahern was no longer leader, they had no mandate.
    Stabshauptmann wrote: »
    What would make sense, would be to call for those 3 by elections, and see if the government still has a mandate.

    If only we could.

    Ignoring calls for those 3 by-elections is just one of the many reasons why Cowen is not suitable as Taioiseach.


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    #69
    Stabshauptmann
    Registered Users Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    it could be argued that once Ahern was no longer leader, [The Government] had no mandate.

    Argued? No. Not logically or sensibly at any rate.

    Espoused by those unable to grasp the simple principles of parliamentary democracy, even after its explained to them? Evidently.

    We do not have a list system.
    We do not elect the government.

    We have a parliamentary representative democracy.
    Primary school children can understand how it works, go figure it out and stop talking utter nonsense.

    [edit]It would be nice if election manifestos were considered contracts, and politicians held to them, but they're not. Was it McCreevy "There are no tax cuts planned for after the election" [sic]? All you can do is factor in any "betrayal" you deem to have occured into your next vote.[/edit]


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    #70
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Stabshauptmann wrote: »
    Argued? No. Not logically or sensibly at any rate.

    Primary school children can understand how it works, go figure it out and stop talking utter nonsense.

    Excuse me ?

    The logic of those posters was flawed and ill-thought out, and I built upon that logic.

    I don't believe what I typed should be the case, but likewise I don't believe that those posters made any sense.

    If people were stupid enough to elect "Bertie's Team" that the election boffins put forward, then it's not my fault that either were stupid.

    But - having elected "Bertie's Team" - then as soon as that team was disbanded, the mandate no longer existed.

    If you have an issue with that logic, then take it up with the cretins that came up with the "marketing campaign".


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    #71
    Stabshauptmann
    Registered Users Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Excuse me ?

    No, you have had the benefit of free education, up to and including third level. I will not excuse you.

    There is no excuse for espousing rhetoric and mantra and attempting to sow confusion when facts are available, evident and simple.

    The logic of those posters was flawed and ill-thought out, and I built upon that logic.

    You built on flawed, ill-thought out logic? :o
    Yeah, you just keep heaping more sand on there till you have a fine house...
    If people were stupid enough to elect "Bertie's Team" that the election boffins put forward, then it's not my fault that either were stupid.

    :rolleyes:
    But - having elected "Bertie's Team" - then as soon as that team was disbanded, the mandate no longer existed.
    Makes no sense.
    Each TD has a mandate. And in our parliamentary representative democracy, the TDs elect the government.
    If you have an issue with that logic, then take it up with the cretin...

    I am, sir.


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    #72
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Stabshauptmann wrote: »
    You built on flawed, ill-thought out logic? :o

    Yup.

    Because if those in power are stupid enough to use that logic, then I'll gladly follow their lead.

    It's the same principle that I would apply to the bailouts; to me, no-one deserves a bailout, and I wouldn't argue in support of one.

    But since Cowen & Lenihan bailed out their buddies, I would argue that if they insist on implementing their original flawed principle, that principle should then be applied consistently....by THEIR standards, EVERYONE should then get a bailout.

    I would say the same to someone who - for example - boguslly claims social welfare, and then objects to Callely's expenses.......while I wouldn't enter a bogus claim in the first place, I would use their flawed logic to expose their double-standards.

    So the above is perfectly valid, regardless of what I personally would do.


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    #73
    dean21
    Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭dean21


    just watching the dail debate on cowen
    Them FF p****S off TD'S have not even the manners to sit in the dail and listen to the debate and neither have the FG TD'S
    Labour are all present
    Why are we paying these people and it is time to rises up and remove them from power


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    #74
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Top marks to Kenny on what I just saw, and Gilmore is telling it like it is, too!

    Maybe there's hope for this country yet!


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    #75
    Noreen1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    Why is Cowen then scared to let the by-elections take place? These constituencies have a right to be represented in a democracy. Cowen et al are denying them this right for the sake of keeping him in power.

    Because they know perfectly well, based on the local election results, that they will lose seats - thus making it more probable that they may not be allowed to complete this term of office.

    Noreen


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    #76
    Noreen1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    aidan24326 wrote: »
    It's not that they're stupid at all (well, some of them probably are, but you know what I mean). They're simply looking after number 1, just like these fellas always do. No doubt some of them deep down have major issues with what's been going on, but they dare not rock the boat too much lest they fall out of it themselves. If any of them had an ounce of integrity they'd make a stand, resign from the FF party even. That they're all still there toeing the line says alot about the kind of people we have in parliament.

    Call me cynical if you like, but my pet theory is that they are protecting their pensions as much as their wages - lets face it, more than a few of them can expect not to be re-elected, so one more lifetime pension in the kitty is not to be sneezed at........

    Noreen


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    #77
    doodd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭doodd


    Had FG been in power for the last 5 or 6 years the banking and budgetry crisis would still have happened and we would all be cursing FG right now and wanting FF back in office.
    FG/labour will get in next time around and they will most likely remain in power for one term and then FF will be back again.


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    #78
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    doodd wrote: »
    Had FG been in power for the last 5 or 6 years the banking and budgetry crisis would still have happened and we would all be cursing FG right now and wanting FF back in office.
    FG/labour will get in next time around and they will most likely remain in power for one term and then FF will be back again.

    Ah yes, the 'they are all the same' argument. Where is my QI alarm? If they are all the same (they may be similar, compared to SF and SWP but they are not the same) but if you think they are all the same, just give your vote to Labour or FG....but I'm assuming you are FF through and through


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    #79
    doodd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭doodd


    Laminations wrote: »
    Ah yes, the 'they are all the same' argument. Where is my QI alarm? If they are all the same (they may be similar, compared to SF and SWP but they are not the same) but if you think they are all the same, just give your vote to Labour or FG....but I'm assuming you are FF through and through

    Not sure what you mean by your QI alarm, my point was more that Fine Gael don't ever really get re-elected. How they are not streets ahead in the polls is beyond me, although that would have a lot to do with their leadership. I probably will vote FG next time around but moreso becasue I think a change would be good for the morale of the country than any real faith in FG. I will never vote labour, if the latest poll is anything to go by there is a real chance labour could be the main party in a future coalition. This worries me!


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    #80
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    doodd wrote: »
    Not sure what you mean by your QI alarm

    QI (Quite Interesting) is a British comedy panel game television quiz show where providing an "obvious but wrong" answer results in a sequence of klaxons and flashing lights, and a theatrical cry of despair from Stephen Fry.
    Your 'they are all the same' comment is an obvious but wrong comment
    my point was more that Fine Gael don't ever really get re-elected.

    True enough, its usually FG that right the wrongs of FF and then get punished for it by an electorate with a short memory. Hopefully it wont happen this time.
    How they are not streets ahead in the polls is beyond me, although that would have a lot to do with their leadership.

    You answered your own question, it seems to be the Kenny cringe factor but we'll have to wait and see whether Kenny was the explicit reason given by voters with a more implicit dislike of FG.
    I probably will vote FG next time around but moreso becasue I think a change would be good for the morale of the country than any real faith in FG.

    Good enough reason I suppose. FF need to be kicked out and punished. Change is good
    there is a real chance labour could be the main party in a future coalition. This worries me!
    Cowen and FF continuing on worries me more.


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