M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

spacetweek · 02-05-2017 4:09pm

zulutango wrote: »

As outlined above, they clearly should be a factor in the decision making process, especially if we're back to square one.

The need for an improved N20 is there regardless of the existence of autonomous vehicles.

boardsuser1 · 02-05-2017 5:24pm

mrsoundie wrote: »

I've liked and retweeted your tweet.

Every little helps

Thank you

Got 3 retweets and 2 likes in total and a few hundred views.

None of the 4 politicians have replied though.

Tony Fitzgerald actually knows me on first name terms in real life and is a friend of the family being my F.I.L's boss.

I won't tell him it's me on twitter though.

I'll keep tweeting to politicians though.

I want to be able to drive to Limerick on the M20 with my kids before i hit the retirement home :pac:

mikeym · 03-05-2017 2:02pm

I will be an old man by the time it gets built

Limerick74 · 05-05-2017 2:21pm

More of the same with article in Limerick Leader on alternative M20 route http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/248263/limerick-councillor-calls-for-alternative-m20-route-to-be-explored.html

Reputable Rog · 05-05-2017 2:56pm

Limerick74 wrote: »

More of the same with article in Limerick Leader on alternative M20 route http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/248263/limerick-councillor-calls-for-alternative-m20-route-to-be-explored.html

Look where he's from. He obviously doesn't use the tunnel on a regular basis or indeed the South Ring.

grogi · 05-05-2017 3:00pm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Look where he's from. He obviously doesn't use the tunnel on a regular basis or indeed the South Ring.

So it is better to funnel those cars through the quays...

boardsuser1 · 05-05-2017 3:46pm

Limerick74 wrote: »

More of the same with article in Limerick Leader on alternative M20 route http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/248263/limerick-councillor-calls-for-alternative-m20-route-to-be-explored.html

Can i have some of what he is smoking please

boardsuser1 · 05-05-2017 3:52pm

I might as well be p1ssing against the wind, but anyway, i'll keep contacting TD's until i get some sort of humane answer and not political waffle. i have many years ahead of me :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/CorkTruckDriver/status/860506640948310016

marno21 · 05-05-2017 5:42pm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Look where he's from. He obviously doesn't use the tunnel on a regular basis or indeed the South Ring.

This. Councillor from Hospital wants motorway bypass for Hospital.

road_high · 06-05-2017 1:07am

Limerick74 wrote: »

More of the same with article in Limerick Leader on alternative M20 route http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/248263/limerick-councillor-calls-for-alternative-m20-route-to-be-explored.html

Just his thoughts which amount to rambling sh1te...you can see why councils are such a waste of money when they start offering "opinions"- savings my arse- what about all the additional traffic tonne just lumped into the M8, extra wear and tear plus need for future widening. Not to mention Dunkettle.
Wouldn't be surprised if there's a bit of meddling going on in the background with the Fermoy toll operators- would be a boon for them.

road_high · 06-05-2017 1:09am

marno21 wrote: »

This. Councillor from Hospital wants motorway bypass for Hospital.

Not exactly sure where Hospital is but isnt it on or near the Mitchelstown to Limerick R road? I guess his "vision" is a link or junction to his parish pump off a new M24?

mrsoundie · 06-05-2017 11:01am

road_high wrote: »

Not exactly sure where Hospital is but isnt it on or near the Mitchelstown to Limerick R road? I guess his "vision" is a link or junction to his parish pump off a new M24?

Here it is.

spacetweek · 06-05-2017 2:12pm

mrsoundie wrote: »

Here it is.

Many of the "towns" the councillor lists as potentially being bypassed by a new N24 are actually pretty far away from the new road and are all small villages.

Edit: Just twigged that he is in fact proposing a Limerick-Mitchelstown road, not Limerick-Tipperary.

marno21 · 06-05-2017 2:17pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Many of the "towns" the councillor lists as potentially being bypassed by a new N24 are actually pretty far away from the new road and are all small villages.

Edit: Just twigged that he is in fact proposing a Limerick-Mitchelstown road, not Limerick-Tipperary.

Yes, it's more of an M513 he's proposing than an M24

boardsuser1 · 06-05-2017 2:39pm

If they want the road routed through Tipperary then i'm amazed that Michael Lowry has kept quiet.

We all know the man has a history of unusual dealings with a certain billionaire whose name i cannot possibly divulge for legal reasons*

(He might take legal action, just like he did recently)

Yourself isit · 06-05-2017 2:44pm

KC161 wrote: »

If they want the road routed through Tipperary then i'm amazed that Michael Lowry has kept quiet.

We all know the man has a history of unusual dealings with a certain billionaire whose name i cannot possibly divulge for legal reasons*

(He might take legal action, just like he did recently)

The n24 isn't going in his direction. The m8 already cuts through tipp.

boardsuser1 · 06-05-2017 2:49pm

Yourself isit wrote: »

The n24 isn't going in his direction. The m8 already cuts through tipp.

Where is he in comparison to the N24?/R513.

The M20 is the only way to get it done.

marno21 · 14-05-2017 1:37pm

For anyone interested, here's a discussion from the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure when they were visited by the VP of the European Investment Bank, and Senator Kieran O'Donnell asked about the financing of the M20.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/committees/?id=2017-05-04a.2340&s=m20#g2367

boardsuser1 · 22-05-2017 5:21pm

Before the jokes start, This is another reason to build the bloody motorway.

On a light hearted note FOWL play is not suspected :pac:

Truckermal · 22-05-2017 5:34pm

Leo has promised to build this if he becomes Taoiseach!

bear1 · 22-05-2017 5:38pm

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/revealed-leo-varadkars-big-ideas-if-he-wins-fine-gael-leadership-and-becomes-taoiseach-35740887.html

boardsuser1 · 22-05-2017 9:05pm

Truckermal wrote: »

Leo has promised to build this if he becomes Taoiseach!

He refused to get funding for it when he was in the department of transport. More red herring stories from him.

mart 23 · 22-05-2017 10:01pm

Truckermal wrote: »

Leo has promised to build this if he becomes Taoiseach!

Lets hope he is speaking truthfully and provides the money to bring the M20 to ABP as quickly as possible.

Truckermal · 23-05-2017 7:42pm

http://www.redfm.ie/news/cork/transport-minister-says-m20-cork-limerick-will-use-the-extra-money-being-made-available-for-capital-spending/

Transport Minister says M20 Cork-Limerick will use the extra money being made available for capital spending
News Home

More from Corker interesting link!

marno21 · 23-05-2017 7:44pm

Truckermal wrote: »

http://www.redfm.ie/news/cork/transport-minister-says-m20-cork-limerick-will-use-the-extra-money-being-made-available-for-capital-spending/

Another interesting link!

€15m is needed between now and 2019/2020 to advance planning and get to the CPO stage.

There is €2.6bn being made available for extra spending as part of the review.

"It'll use up the entire allocation."

Perhaps it's in Minister Ross's interests to take up basic mathematics.

spacetweek · 23-05-2017 10:21pm

At this stage, everything Ross says annoys me. Sooner he's out the better.

marno21 · 24-05-2017 12:23am

The above excerpt is from today's Topical Issue Matters where Fianna Fail's Michael Moynihan (Cork North West), Kevin O'Keefe (Cork East) and Niall Collins (Limerick) brought it up together.

Full debate here: http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2017052300035?opendocument

Of particular interest..

Minister for Stepaside Garda Station Reopening wrote:

The problem is that in building it now and spending the funds, it would use up virtually the entire capital allocation for the area.

A full year into his brief as Minister for Transport and he doesn't realise the simple issue that the biggest road project in the country, a road which claimed SIX lives last year, does not have planning permission and requires a mere €15m to get to the CPO stage which would take 2/3 years. Lots of time here being wasted, as Kieran O'Donnell keeps saying. If the full money for the project was available today it still couldn't be built. It makes it clear that the Government have no interest in progressing the M20 and are happy to trot out this kind of ram?is when asked about it.

It's a pity that Ross is so key in holding this Government together. It would be much more beneficial for the country if we simply ****ed him out.

bear1 · 25-05-2017 4:57pm

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/cork-to-limerick-road-may-get-funds-for-upgrade-450857.html

Looks like Noonan is trying to get the EIB to provide funding. I hope this goes well.

marno21 · 25-05-2017 8:39pm

For anyone interested in 15 minutes of punishment, here's the video of Ross's question in the Dail regarding the continued kicking the can down the road re the M20.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/video/home/251501/watch-shane-ross-casts-fresh-doubt-on-limerick-cork-m20-motorway-link.html

marno21 · 25-05-2017 8:42pm

bear1 wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/cork-to-limerick-road-may-get-funds-for-upgrade-450857.html

Looks like Noonan is trying to get the EIB to provide funding. I hope this goes well.

The EIB can't fund a project that is currently a concept yet to go beyond the feasibility stage and has no planning permission.

Same with Metro North. There is a Metro North project with full PP that the Government insists on leaving in the filing cabinet and redesigning from scratch.

I believe if the M20 were built, not only would it increase the chances of FDI in the area, but it would also greatly benefit the ability of Irish companies to grow in the area. So much time wasted with employees sitting on the current mess of a road, so much time with trucks spent stopped in traffic or trundling along the road. It's in everyone's interest to build this thing bar the Government. I would hope this is not forgotten by the people of the region at the next election.

bear1 · 25-05-2017 10:46pm

Varadker mentioned motorwaying the north west and the m20.
I wonder if he's planning a motorway from tuam to sligo then.
M20 built you've got all major towns/cities bar letterkenny from ringaskiddy to sligo connected by motorway.
You can see the massive benefits to the region from miles off.

pigtown · 25-05-2017 11:11pm

Jaysus if 100km of motorway between Tuam and Sligo get preference over 100km between Limerick and Cork, or Dublin metro projects, I'll be absolutely shocked. I wonder is he talking about getting the A5 back on track

bear1 · 25-05-2017 11:15pm

I might be wrong but I think he mentioned 1) getting funding to build the m2 to border and 2) then giving 400 million to the north to help build their motorway. Dafuq like?
If we have to give money to build roads could we not ask them to chip in for ours?

marno21 · 25-05-2017 11:49pm

Leo is planning upgrades along the N2/A5 corridor.

There are no plans to upgrade the N17 from Tuam to Collooney at present.

This is off topic for here so any discussion of Leo's plans should go on the Government Capital Spending thread please.

Limerick74 · 28-05-2017 10:49pm

Slightly ambitious timeframe http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/252229/leo-five-year-delivery-for-m20.html

grogi · 29-05-2017 9:24am

Limerick74 wrote: »

Slightly ambitious timeframe http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/252229/leo-five-year-delivery-for-m20.html

Let me just LOL it... Election sausage, nothing more...

serfboard · 29-05-2017 10:55am

Limerick74 wrote: »

Slightly ambitious timeframe http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/252229/leo-five-year-delivery-for-m20.html

Here's what he said:

Leo Varadkar wrote:

I think it could be done

offering two get-out clauses - "think" and "could".

Here's what he should have said if he had any intention of delivering it.

I promise it will be done

serfboard · 29-05-2017 11:07am

bear1 wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/cork-to-limerick-road-may-get-funds-for-upgrade-450857.html

From that article:

The Irish Examiner wrote:

The talks involved ways the bank could lend support possibly leading to the costs of projects such as the Cork to Limerick road being kept off the national balance sheet.
...
They also discussed using public-private partnerships to fund projects.

<rant>
This "off-balance sheet" funding talk gets on my wick.

Fine, if the PPP is going to be tolled road and the private sector takes the hit if it doesn't work out (e.g. the M1, M4, M6, M7 and M8 tolls).

I have big objections to the Government-underwritten method of tolling: viz. the Shannon Tunnel and the two M3 tolls, where the government has to make up the shortfall if the toll numbers aren't sufficient.

But the model that sickens me most is the non-tolled PPP model (the M17/M18). In this case, the amount "borrowed" is "off-balance-sheet" but the government still has to pay it back anyway! At rates higher than it would cost to borrow directly! :mad:
</rant>

spacetweek · 29-05-2017 9:08pm

Thanks, I think.
Most people would already know what off-balance sheet borrowing is. It's a necessary evil in order to circumvent the budgetary straitjacket we're in.

JCX BXC · 29-05-2017 9:20pm

Anyway the Fine Gael leader / New Taoiseach is being elected today, let's see how Leo's tone is once he's won.

Sam Russell · 29-05-2017 10:17pm

PPP is just a rip off of the Irish Government and those who pay tax. The risk is taken entirely by the Gov and the other party takes a premium for being invlved without risk. The worse they can do is quite well, but they can really make hay if it works out for them. The Gov always does worse than if they funded the entity themselves.

Look at any of the contracts and you will see what goes on.

serfboard · 31-05-2017 1:45pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Most people would already know what off-balance sheet borrowing is. It's a necessary evil in order to circumvent the budgetary straitjacket we're in.

It's not a necessary evil though - it's only necessary because Herr Schauble says so.

In a non-tolled PPP we're still borrowing the money (i.e. we still have to pay it back), but we're just not calling it borrowing so that the Germans can sleep soundly in their beds, and the consortia can make a profit from the state.

Any honest assessment of these financial gimmicks would put them on the balance sheet where they belong and where we would get better value!

Non-tolled PPPs are a ripoff, plain and simple. Either borrow on-balance sheet, or don't "borrow" at all.

grogi · 31-05-2017 1:54pm

serfboard wrote: »

Non-tolled PPPs are a ripoff, plain and simple. Either borrow on-balance sheet, or don't "borrow" at all.

It's not a rip-off. Doing something off the books always costs more, because there are more risks involved.

When you buy a gun, the one without serial number is much more expensive than one with it...

annfield1978 · 02-06-2017 9:17pm

AECOM ROD appointed to go some inital data collection and model updates as part of a pre commencement stage

marno21 · 02-06-2017 10:24pm

annfield1978 wrote: »

AECOM ROD appointed to go some inital data collection and model updates as part of a pre commencement stage

Big thanks for this info.

9 months is how long this stage will take, so we should have this work wound up by March 2018

No further progress is planned at present as we can't afford the €15m to go through the second stage of planning.

boardsuser1 · 02-06-2017 10:47pm

marno21 wrote: »

Big thanks for this info.

9 months is how long this stage will take, so we should have this work wound up by March 2018

No further progress is planned at present as we can't afford the €15m to go through the second stage of planning.

This is worrying.

spacetweek · 03-06-2017 8:53pm

Having the money for planning for this is just a matter of political will, not availability of money.

marno21 · 03-06-2017 9:05pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Having the money for planning for this is just a matter of political will, not availability of money.

TII have raised significant concerns about the lack of schemes in planning, as there are 8 schemes with planning (N4 Sligo, N5 Mayo, M7 upgrade, Dunkettle, Macroom BP, N56 x2 in Donegal and Moycullen), and 5 schemes with fully funded planning (N2 Slane, N6 Galway BP, Limerick-Foynes, Cork-Ringaskiddy and Mallow bypass)

Beyond that, there is nothing with planning permission besides the N59 Westport-Mulranny scheme and the Ardee bypass.

This is everything in planning at the minute:

N4 upgrade: J1 to J8
N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge
M7 Naas-Red Cow
N11/M50 upgrade - Sandyford-Kilmacanogue
N13/N56 Letterkenny North BP
N14 Letterkenny-Lifford
N14/N15 to A5 Link
N15 Ballybofey/Stranorlar BP
N52 Ardee bypass
N59 Westport - Mulranny
N59 Oughterard - Clifden
N69 Listowel Bypass
N86 Tralee to Dingle

TII want to get more schemes onto this list, because we may not have the money to fund their construction at the minute, but because a suspended scheme is several years away from needing this money, it's better to have them shovel ready on the chance that the money becomes available.

Coming back to the M20, it's reported that the motorway will break costs and time in the following rough scales.

1. Preplanning - Tender awarded 06/2017 - €1m - 9 months
2. Planning - Unfunded - €12-15m - 2 years
3. CPO/detailed design etc. - €100-150m - 2/3 years (depending on objections etc)
4. Construction - €650-700m - 3/4 years.

It's nonsensical to say that we can't afford €12-15m to complete stage 2 of the above given there is lots of money available for various N5 Enda/Michael Ring schemes, and schemes such as the Listowel bypass. It's just a complete lack of political ambition, almost to the point at this stage that there is an anti-M20 agenda amongst certain high members of the current Government. Everyone knows the M20 needs to be built, everyone knows the current road is **** and is choking the region, and everyone knows that the road is unsafe. The longer we wait before progressing planning, the further away from construction we are.

The current government love looking at costs, economic viability, etc. Six people died on this road last year. The average cost of a road fatality to the economy is roughly €2.5m. Six people in 2016 = €2.5m x 6 = €15m. It's a pity the beancounters don't look at it this way.

spacetweek · 04-06-2017 9:54pm

Can you give us a source for those schemes you've indicated are in planning?

road_high · 05-06-2017 9:30am

This thread depresses me every time I look at it!

M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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