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Season 4 Finale : HAVE read the books - spoilers possible

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    #242
    Rosy Posy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭Rosy Posy


    Blay wrote: »
    Westeros.org has some of the most anal ASOIAF fans in the world, some of them just live to find faults with the show. A few weeks ago they were moaning that Oathkeeper(the sword) wasn't good enough. You can't ****ing see the thing in the books, sorry if the tv show didn't consult you for your personal image of how it looks:pac:

    How much more decoration do they want on it?:pac: The thing is already bordering on the ridiculous;

    This is the show prop;

    http://i.imgur.com/K6jfpoy.jpg

    One of the reasons I don't contribute to that forum


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    #243
    Rosy Posy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭Rosy Posy


    Paddy Cow wrote: »
    And we live in times of equality! Imagine the abuse Brienne would've faced simply for being a female fighter.

    It's unusual but not unheard of- the Mormonts, Meera Reed and Obara Sand spring to mind. Lyanna Stark was supposed to have been pretty tough too. I imagine most of the abuse would have been because of her size and plainness, the fighting was just the icing on the cake.


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    #244
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,158 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Blay wrote: »
    Westeros.org has some of the most anal ASOIAF fans in the world, some of them just live to find faults with the show. A few weeks ago they were moaning that Oathkeeper(the sword) wasn't good enough. You can't ****ing see the thing in the books, sorry if the tv show didn't consult you for your personal image of how it looks:pac:

    How much more decoration do they want on it?:pac: The thing is already bordering on the ridiculous;

    This is the show prop;

    http://i.imgur.com/K6jfpoy.jpg
    I can understand some of the reaction tbh. In a sword-fight, I'd expect Brienne to win as the more skilled with the blade and having more endurance than most men (mentioned in the books) but in a down and dirty brawl such as was depicted I'd have expected the hound to win. A fight like that tends to be won by the person who knows the most dirty tricks and who has the more vicious nature, neither of which are attributes I'd have attached to Brienne.

    It doesn't bother me in the slightest that she won and I enjoyed the scrap immensely but I can see a character based argument for it being "wrong" for her to win rather than simply a sexist one.


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    #245
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,934 ✭✭✭Daith


    Sleepy wrote: »
    I can understand some of the reaction tbh. In a sword-fight, I'd expect Brienne to win as the more skilled with the blade and having more endurance than most men (mentioned in the books) but in a down and dirty brawl such as was depicted I'd have expected the hound to win. A fight like that tends to be won by the person who knows the most dirty tricks and who has the more vicious nature, neither of which are attributes I'd have attached to Brienne.

    Even so The Hound was already wounded, tired, probably malnourished and had been on the move for months with different encounters. He wasn't at his best.


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    #246
    Paddy Cow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    Sleepy wrote: »
    I can understand some of the reaction tbh. In a sword-fight, I'd expect Brienne to win as the more skilled with the blade and having more endurance than most men (mentioned in the books) but in a down and dirty brawl such as was depicted I'd have expected the hound to win. A fight like that tends to be won by the person who knows the most dirty tricks and who has the more vicious nature, neither of which are attributes I'd have attached to Brienne.

    It doesn't bother me in the slightest that she won and I enjoyed the scrap immensely but I can see a character based argument for it being "wrong" for her to win rather than simply a sexist one.
    Brienne fought like a knight at first but when it got dirty, she played the dirtiest. She won by beating him over the head with a rock.


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    #247
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    The whole point of her speech to Arya was to explain that until she was trained to fight she fought with boys anyway, untrained, so that's where she learned her dirty tricks.

    Had the Hound been in top form it was still an even match up. We haven't seen Brienne lose a one on one fight, yet.


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    #248
    TimeToShine
    Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭TimeToShine


    To be fair having the Hound lose to Brienne devalues his ability. Brienne is good but there is no evidence to indicate that she's great. She beat Loras, who is mostly a jouster, in a melee. She struggled against a weakened Jaime. An injured Hound would have made short work of her if this were the books. Hell, most schmuck knights would have. She says herself her biggest advantage is being underestimated.

    However, if we take the show as a separate entity (which it is) then it makes sense. This is probably where most of disagreements arise. In the show Brienne has been painted as a very good swordswoman on par with any man in the seven kingdoms, so complaining about her beating the same Hound is a bit silly.

    If you constantly equate the book and the show there will always be stuff to complain about.


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    #249
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,158 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Paddy Cow wrote: »
    Brienne fought like a knight at first but when it got dirty, she played the dirtiest. She won by beating him over the head with a rock.
    And beat Sandor in knightly combat before biting off his ear in the ensuing brawl...

    I don't have any problem with it in the show, it was a brilliant scrap!

    It's just a deviation from Brienne's character as it was portrayed both in the books and in the show to date. We've seen her to be a fearsome warrior with a sword but we've never been shown her as a semi-feral street-fighter whereas that's exactly how we picture Sandor: the man's nickname is "the hound" and it's not just for the dogs on his shield: it's for the side of his nature which should, in theory, make him better at this type of fighting than Brienne.

    Daith makes the good point that we're seeing a weakened and dispirited Clegane and that contributes to the scene working for me. I'm just saying that I can see why some have a problem with it and pointing out that it's not automatically down to sexism.


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    #250
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Sleepy wrote: »
    . A fight like that tends to be won by the person who knows the most dirty tricks and who has the more vicious nature, neither of which are attributes I'd have attached to Brienne.

    You're basing this on what? :confused:


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    #251
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,163 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Sleepy wrote: »

    It's just a deviation from Brienne's character as it was portrayed both in the books and in the show to date. We've seen her to be a fearsome warrior with a sword but we've never been shown her as a semi-feral street-fighter whereas that's exactly how we picture Sandor: the man's nickname is "the hound" and it's not just for the dogs on his shield: it's for the side of his nature which should, in theory, make him better at this type of fighting than Brienne.

    Pretty sure the Hound got his nickname from being Joffrey's guard/lap dog all his life rather than his fighting skills.


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    #252
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,158 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Bambi wrote: »
    You're basing this on what? :confused:
    Every street-fight I watched growing up, some basic martial arts training as a kid and what fights I wasn't able to talk my way out of.

    Unless there's a major disparity is size, and even sometimes then, the fighter prepared to be the most savage tends to win a street-fight. Is it such a stretch to see Sandor Clegane as being more of a vicious / savage fighter than Brienne of Tarth?


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    #253
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,158 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Pretty sure the Hound got his nickname from being Joffrey's guard/lap dog all his life rather than his fighting skills.
    That's true actually.


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    #254
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,934 ✭✭✭Daith


    Sleepy wrote: »
    Unless there's a major disparity is size, and even sometimes then, the fighter prepared to be the most savage tends to win a street-fight. Is it such a stretch to see Sandor Clegane as being more of a vicious / savage fighter than Brienne of Tarth?

    Not really. I'd also assumed Brienne was picked on when she was younger from boys and had to fight them off.

    As I said there's other circumstances coming into play.


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    #255
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,163 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    I think Brienne got a bit lucky, she was holding her own, could very well have won regardless but in fairness he did fall of a cliff in the end.


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    #256
    Mr.Prodston
    Registered Users Posts: 16,304 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Prodston


    podgemonster wrote: »
    On top of D&D claiming this is their best episode they have also put it forward as their entry for Emmy consideration.

    As much as enjoyed this solid season finale, I do feel that other episodes in the series stand out more, namely Episode 9, with episode 8 and 2 a close second.

    I thought the focus at the wall, the pace and tension build in Ep 9 was excellent. The 360 shot, the fight choreography and visual effects were stunning.

    Do others share this view or does it even matter as the show will just snubbed again?

    I was actually thinking about that last night. Is it different for best actor etc? as for Peter Dinklage his scene in the throne room was the best performance in the show to date, all 4 seasons of it. And Pedro Pascal for support should really be a nominee so either 8 or his chat with Tyrion in the dungeon should be looked at.

    As for best episode it would seem a disservice not to highlight episodes 2,6,7,8 and 9 although that's probably overkill :pac:

    I have no idea how the emmy's, the nominations or whatever work so all or none of what I said could be applicable.


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    #257
    Liamalone
    Registered Users Posts: 4,956 ✭✭✭Liamalone


    Only got to watch it today due to being out of the country. Thought it was far from great. Most of my grievances have already been discussed apart from the seemingly good health that Tywin was in on the throne, I expected him to be sweating the bit out whilst playing a merry tune from his backside yet he seemed in fine fettle.

    Ah well, other than that, the stupid skeletons that were tooled up to the hilt and the poor representation of the Bloodraven were major lows for me.


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    #258
    GerB40
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭GerB40


    Are ye following the "Have NOT read the books" thread? It would seem they're after copping on to R+L=J.. It looks like it's genuine too, not some gobshyte who pretends not to have read the books to look clever.


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    #259
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,163 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    GerB40 wrote: »
    Are ye following the "Have NOT read the books" thread? It would seem they're after copping on to R+L=J.. It looks like it's genuine too, not some gobshyte who pretends not to have read the books to look clever.

    The funny thing is the theory they came out with, that Robert was Jon's father, actually kind of made sense to me when i first read it.


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    #260
    lynski
    Registered Users Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭lynski


    it was a good read alright, my oh came to the same conclusion. dark hair and bastard seems likely, but then stannis didnt recognise him so he was off again.
    he also got the lord commander vibe and that cersei is going nuts.
    really want him to read the books over the summer


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    #261
    Liam O
    Registered Users Posts: 19,081 ✭✭✭✭Liam O


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    The funny thing is the theory they came out with, that Robert was Jon's father, actually kind of made sense to me when i first read it.

    I remember reading that this was debunked at some stage. I'd like to think all of Robert's bastards aren't just red herrings though.


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    #262
    Naux
    Registered Users Posts: 335 ✭✭Naux


    GerB40 wrote: »
    Are ye following the "Have NOT read the books" thread? It would seem they're after copping on to R+L=J.. It looks like it's genuine too, not some gobshyte who pretends not to have read the books to look clever.

    In the books I seem to remember that it says that
    Rhaegar raped Lyanna
    .

    Maybe that is where Jon Snow came from..


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    #263
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,518 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Naux wrote: »
    In the books I seem to remember that it says that
    Rhaegar raped Lyanna
    .

    Maybe that is where Jon Snow came from..

    That's what Robert believed, thinking that he killed Rhaegar because of that is pretty much what kept him going over the years.


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    #264
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,163 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Robert is the only character that ever refers to it as a rape and speaks about Rhaegar like he was a monster, everyone else who mentions Rhaegar make him sound like he was loved by everyone.

    The whole Rhaegar/Lyanna/Robert triangle is a great story, shame it's only lore, would love to see it adapted somehow.


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    #265
    GerB40
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭GerB40


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Robert is the only character that ever refers to it as a rape and speaks about Rhaegar like he was a monster, everyone else who mentions Rhaegar make him sound like he was loved by everyone.

    The whole Rhaegar/Lyanna/Robert triangle is a great story, shame it's only lore, would love to see it adapted somehow.

    When the whole series is over and Jons lineage (and every other mystery is unravelled) HBO will realise what a money maker Game of Thrones was and jump at the chance to make a prequal.
    There's so much there to work on. Obviously Roberts rebellion will be the main story but we'll see
    1) The "kidnap" of Lyanna.
    2) Ned Starks da and brother dying horrifically at the hands of the mad king.
    3) The rebellion starting in earnest.
    4) The great battles that ensued.
    5) The mad kings ultimatum to Jamie
    6) House Targaryn losing control of kings Landing.
    7) Jaimes refusal to "let them all burn" and in turn becoming The Kingslayer.
    8) The end of the rebellion and relative peace (for a while at least)...
    9) The Tower of Joy. (It would be utter bliss to watch this).

    There's at least 15 GoT quality episodes in those alone and I know too well there's plenty more to work with.
    I really hope to see this.
    Thoughts?
    Edit: We'll also see the mad king being an utter psycho mentalist which would be cool...


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    #266
    podgemonster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,228 ✭✭✭podgemonster


    GerB40 wrote: »
    When the whole series is over and Jons lineage (and every other mystery is unravelled) HBO will realise what a money maker Game of Thrones was and jump at the chance to make a prequal.
    There's so much there to work on. Obviously Roberts rebellion will be the main story but we'll see
    1) The "kidnap" of Lyanna.
    2) Ned Starks da and brother dying horrifically at the hands of the mad king.
    3) The rebellion starting in earnest.
    4) The great battles that ensued.
    5) The mad kings ultimatum to Jamie
    6) House Targaryn losing control of kings Landing.
    7) Jaimes refusal to "let them all burn" and in turn becoming The Kingslayer.
    8) The end of the rebellion and relative peace (for a while at least)...
    9) The Tower of Joy. (It would be utter bliss to watch this).

    There's at least 15 GoT quality episodes in those alone and I know too well there's plenty more to work with.
    I really hope to see this.
    Thoughts?
    Edit: We'll also see the mad king being an utter psycho mentalist which would be cool...

    I for one would love to see this and would watch it most definitely but allow me to play devils advocate here for awhile.

    1) The series would have several expensive battle and siege scenes. The Battle of the Bells and the Trident being especially expensive. The harrenhall tourney would be pricey too.

    2) 90% of the cast would be recast perhaps Selmy, Sandor, Gregor, LF, Varys, Pycelle, Cersei, Jaime and Lysa Tully could play their younger selves but for most it's a new cast while at the same time look and sound similar to the original series.

    3) as this piece is only told as backstory most of the series dialogue would have to be filled by D&D which may fall flat and take alot of time

    4) We already know what happens, we know who dies and when both in the series by the time it's finished and the books. The History & Lore DVD bonus stuff have covered this extensivly too

    5) All these changes require more time and money which would cost HBO more than what an average extra season of GoT would cost. It took 4 years almost to get the first series off the ground

    6) After 7-8 seasons the directors and crews may wish to close this masterpiece and move on to other projects

    Do I want a prequel season to happen:
    Oh god yes!!!!

    Do I think it will happen: Probably Not


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    #267
    Naux
    Registered Users Posts: 335 ✭✭Naux


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Robert is the only character that ever refers to it as a rape and speaks about Rhaegar like he was a monster, everyone else who mentions Rhaegar make him sound like he was loved by everyone.

    The whole Rhaegar/Lyanna/Robert triangle is a great story, shame it's only lore, would love to see it adapted somehow.

    Agreed, I'm sure the story will be revealed/confirmed somehow in the upcoming books.


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    #268
    RobbingBandit
    Registered Users Posts: 18,093 ✭✭✭✭RobbingBandit


    Don't think Ned and Robert would have let Rhaegar keep Lyanna captive after a rape, I wonder was it consensual after he crowned her Queen of Beauty and then he took her captive upon learning that she was pregnant to save the child from Robert to whom she was betrothed as her probably would have killed the child.

    Off topic a little, I came across a passage in A Dance with Dragons in one of Brans POV where he is inside a Heart Tree looking at Ned praying for Jon to be accepted as his son, or at least that is the idea I was getting.


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