Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Research A Soldier

2456714

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    caught an episode of My Family at War with Eamonn Holmes grandfather and great uncles story and Kate Silverton's Gt Grandfather.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00ffkm9

    Holmes's great uncle was killed. Listed as Fitzsimons but apparently should be Fitsimmons
    http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=268172

    I was surprised how much info they were able to get re these chaps service. In the case of Holme's grandfather (Jack Fitzsimmons, Irish Guards) they got details of his medical assessment after being wounded and worked out when and where he was wounded.

    In the case of Silverton's Gt Grandfather they expressed surprise at his enlistment aged 37 and the fact that he has a number of children. My own Gt Grandfather enlisted aged 41 with 4 young children.

    FYI, Ancestry now has a database "Ireland's Casualties of World War One"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭R.Dub.Fusilier


    FYI, Ancestry now has a database "Ireland's Casualties of World War One"

    had a quick look at the above and it is the same as "Irelands Memorial Records World War One 1914-1918". great for research.


  • Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭kja1888


    I had never managed to find anything on the internet about my grandfather until now thanks to the link to the RAMC site - he was a regular in the 4th Field Ambulance and went to France on 16th August 1914. That must have been right at the start of the war, does that make him an "old contemptable"?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 357 ✭✭JohnThomas09


    hey guys great thread.Im back again looking for information on my realtion.I posted in Histroy and Hertiage a few months ago.Im looking for information on:
    Name: Thomas Kerrigan
    Age: 19
    From: Manorhamilton,Co.Leitrim
    Regiment no: 7247
    Regiment: 7th Royal Irish Rifles
    Date of Death: 7-9-1914

    Any help would be greatly appreciated?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭arnhem44


    His Date of date on the CWGC site is showing him as died in 1916,will check the Irish Memorial records later to cross reference this

    Casualty Details

    Name:KERRIGAN,THOMAS

    Initials:T

    Nationality:United Kingdom

    Rank:Rifleman

    Regiment/Service:Royal Irish Rifles

    Unit Text:7th Bn.

    Date of Death:07/09/1916

    Service No:7247
    Casualty Type:Commonwealth War Dead

    Grave/Memorial Reference Pier and Face 15 A and 15 B.

    Cemetery Details

    Cemetery:THIEPVAL MEMORIAL

    Country:France

    Locality:Somme

    Visiting Information:
    The Panel numbers (or Pier and Face) quoted at the end of each entry relate to the panels dedicated to the Regiment served with. In some instances where a casualty is recorded as attached to another Regiment, his name may alternatively appear within their Regimental Panel (or Pier and Face). Please refer to the on-site Memorial Register Introduction to determine the alternative panel numbers (or Pier and Face) if you do not find the name within the quoted Panels (or Pier and Face).

    Location Information:
    The Thiepval Memorial will be found on the D73, next to the village of Thiepval, off the main Bapaume to Albert road (D929). Each year a major ceremony is held at the memorial on 1 July.

    Historical Information:
    On 1 July 1916, supported by a French attack to the south, thirteen divisions of Commonwealth forces launched an offensive on a line from north of Gommecourt to Maricourt. Despite a preliminary bombardment lasting seven days, the German defences were barely touched and the attack met unexpectedly fierce resistance. Losses were catastrophic and with only minimal advances on the southern flank, the initial attack was a failure. In the following weeks, huge resources of manpower and equipment were deployed in an attempt to exploit the modest successes of the first day. However, the German Army resisted tenaciously and repeated attacks and counter attacks meant a major battle for every village, copse and farmhouse gained. At the end of September, Thiepval was finally captured. The village had been an original objective of 1 July. Attacks north and east continued throughout October and into November in increasingly difficult weather conditions. The Battle of the Somme finally ended on 18 November with the onset of winter. In the spring of 1917, the German forces fell back to their newly prepared defences, the Hindenburg Line, and there were no further significant engagements in the Somme sector until the Germans mounted their major offensive in March 1918. The Thiepval Memorial, the Memorial to the Missing of the Somme, bears the names of more than 72,000 officers and men of the United Kingdom and South African forces who died in the Somme sector before 20 March 1918 and have no known grave. Over 90% of those commemorated died between July and November 1916. The memorial also serves as an Anglo-French Battle Memorial in recognition of the joint nature of the 1916 offensive and a small cemetery containing equal numbers of Commonwealth and French graves lies at the foot of the memorial. The memorial, designed by Sir Edwin Lutyens, was built between 1928 and 1932 and unveiled by the Prince of Wales, in the presence of the President of France, on 1 August 1932 (originally scheduled for 16 May but due to the death of French President Doumer the ceremony was postponed until August). The dead of other Commonwealth countries, who died on the Somme and have no known graves, are commemorated on national memorials elsewhere.

    No. of Identified Casualties:72194


    Unit Movements

    7th (Service) Battalion
    Formed at Belfast in September 1914 as part of K2 and attached to 48th Brigade in 16th (Irish) Division. Moved in January 1915 to Ballyvonare.
    5 March 1915 ; absorbed a company of the Royal Jersey Militia. Moved in June 1915 to Ballyholley and to England in September, going to Aldershot.
    20 December 1915 : landed at le Havre.
    23 August 1917 : transferred to 49th Brigade in same Division.
    14 October 1917 : transferred to 108th Brigade in 36th (Ulster) Division. Absorbed into 2nd Bn on 14 November 1917.

    Photo of Ration party,R.I.R Somme 1916

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Royal_Irish_Rifles_ration_party_Somme_July_1916.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭arnhem44


    Here's some more info on the 7th Batt R.I.R off the GW forum,sadly the link for this info is no longer available

    1. - FORMATION OF 6TH AND 7TH BATTALIONS.

    WHILE the "Old Army" was dying in Flanders, while the 2nd Battalion as it originally existed was passing away in the flat country about La Bassée, while the Reserve battalions were hastily drilling men to fill the terrible gaps in its ranks, two new battalions were formed to take their places in the new armies which, under Lord Kitchener's inspiration, were turning these islands into an armed camp.
    The 6th (Service) Battalion Royal Irish Rifles was the first to be formed and the first in the field. It was in the 29th Brigade of the 10th (Irish) Division. It was formed in Dublin, at Wellington Barracks, in the last ten days of August, 1914, the other battalions in the Brigade being the 5th Royal Irish, the 5th Connaught Rangers, and the 6th Leinster Regiment. In September it moved to Fermoy for a month's training, returning to Dublin, to the Royal Barracks, in October. Four months were passed in the city. The 10th Division, being intended for early service overseas, was on the whole better treated in the matter of equipment than the other Irish Divisions, the 16th and the 36th (Ulster), then in training in the country. February, March and April saw the 29th Brigade at the Curragh, a period of field work succeeding one upon " the square."
    At the end of April it was transferred to New Park Camp, in Hacked Park, Basingstoke. There training became intensive, musketry being carried out at Aldershot. On May 28th H.M. the King, and on June 1st Lord Kitchener, reviewed the 10th Division in Hackwood Park. On July 6th the 6th Royal Irish Rifles left Basingstoke for embarkation at Liverpool, its destination being in the first place Alexandria, and then the Gallipoli Peninsula.
    The 7th (Service) Battalion Royal Irish Rifles, formed in Belfast in September, 1914, was in the 48th Brigade, 16th (Irish) Division. It spent practically the first year of its existence at Mallow, Co. Cork, and Ballyvonare Camp, where it had excellent training-ground in the Ballyhoura Mountains. Recruiting was none too rapid even in those days for this, the second of the three Irish Divisions, and the Battalion was glad to receive a company of Jerseymen, 6 officers and 225 other ranks, in March, 1915. These men belonged to the Jersey Militia, and were well trained. As fifty per cent of them spoke French, it can easily be imagined that they were useful in France, where they sang French songs on the march, to the astonishment of the country-folk.
    From mid-June to mid-August, 1915, the Battalion was under canvas at Ballyhooley, on the banks of the Blackwater, near Lord Listowel's seat. It was very fit and well trained when, in September, 1915, it left Ireland for Aldershot. Being at the heart of military life meant that it had many inspections to undergo in the succeeding weeks. On December 2nd the 16th Division was inspected by H.M. the Queen, and before it left the country Cardinal Bourne gave an impressive address to the Roman Catholics, who were in a great majority.
    On December 19th the Battalion entrained at Farnborough for Southampton, disembarking next day at Havre and going into camp.




    III. - THE 7TH Battalion.

    We must now turn to a new legion, one of the New Army battalions, the 7th. As has already been recorded, it was in the 48th Infantry Brigade., the other battalions in which were the 8th and 9th Royal Dublin Fusiliers and the 9th Royal Munster Fusiliers.
    On December 19th the 7th Battalion left Blackdown for Southampton. It embarked at 4.30 p.m., and arrived at Havre at 7.30 a.m. next morning. It missed - fortunately, perhaps, for its early impressions of France - the usual night in a rest camp, and entrained that evening for Fouguereuil, in the coal-mining area. "A" and "B" Companies marched to Noeux-les-Mines, and "C" and "D" to Houchin. These villages of the mining country were incredibly ugly, but scenic beauty was not the first demand of troops in war-time, and they had compensations. Noeux-les-Mines, in particular, was, whatever officers might think of it, one of the most favoured billets in France from the point of view of the rank and file. It had, to begin with, the best bathing facilities; on the western front - the hot baths attached to the mines. It was liberally supplied with estaminets and eating-houses, where eggs and fried potatoes could be obtained, with other more dubious attractions.
    From the 23rd onwards the 48th Brigade was attached to the 1st Division for instruction. The first Christmas on active service came and went before the Battalion had seen the front line, or in any way "found its feet." On the 29th "A" and "B" Companies moved up to Philosophe, to the old British front and support lines, where they had graduated instruction in the holding of trenches.


    IV. - THE 7TH BATTALION AND THE APRIL GAS ATTACKS.

    The 7th Battalion, as has been stated, was already in France at the beginning of 1916, but its active service does not really start till then. Its first casualty, in fact, occurred on New Year's Day, when its transport officer. Lieutenant J. P. Farrelly, was wounded near Hulluch. Throughout January it carried out steady training. On the 20th it lined the road in honour of a visit from General Joffre. On the 28th, when it was at Hesdingeuil, near Béthune, Major S. G. Francis, D.S.O., West Yorkshire Regiment, took command in succession to Lieut.-Colonel Hartley. He remained with the Battalion throughout its career, till it was disbanded two years later, when his fine service was rewarded with the command of a brigade.
    On February 18th the Battalion moved to Sailly Labourse, being now attached to the 12th Division, and next day its companies began entering the trenches, each being attached to a battalion of the 36th Brigade. On the 25th it took over for the first time a sector of its own, not far from the Hohenzollern Redoubt, and that night got its two first prisoners, a couple of Bavarians who surrendered to a patrol. After this first taste of the trenches it moved back to billets at Ham-en-Artois, returning to the line after a month's further training, especially in bombing, in front' of Hulluch. The very night, March 26th, on which it entered the trenches, the enemy blew two mines, accompanied by a heavy bombardment. Our Lewis-gun fire prevented him from occupying the craters, the near lips of which were eventually occupied and consolidated by our bombers, The Battalion came very lightly out of this affair, with no more than four casualties.
    The Battalion was not in the trenches when there occurred one of the most serious gas attacks made by the enemy since the Second Battle of Ypres. The gas was released upon a wide frontage, on the front of the 8th Dublins and the right of the 49th Brigade, at 4.30 a.m. on April 27th. The "sack" gas helmets of those days were very inferior to the type evolved later, and casualties were numerous. It was, however, the tremendous bombardment, which knocked to pieces our front trench upon a front of upwards of half a mile, that caused most loss. An hour after the release of the gas the Germans entered the line at several points, but were ejected after heavy fighting, in which the 7th Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, of the 49th Brigade, particularly distinguished itself. The 7th Royal Irish Rifles sent up one company to the 8th Dublins in front line, and another to the 9th Dublins in support, with fifty bombers. The losses in the 48th Brigade were about two hundred, but heavier in the 49th.
    Two days later the performance was repeated. This time there was no infantry attack upon the Brigade's front, and those upon that of the 49th Brigade never reached our trenches, The losses in the 48th Brigade were huge for an affair of trench warfare - 100 killed and 180 wounded or gassed. It is doubtful, however, if the Germans got any profit out of this later venture. In 'the first place, some of the gas blew back over their

    64

    [ 1916 ]

    65

    SHORTAGE OF RECRUITS FOR 16TH DIVISION

    lines, and their ambulances were afterwards seen to be hard at work. In the second, large bodies were caught by machine-gun fire and the barrage of the artillery covering the 49th Brigade and dispersed with loss. Second-Lieutenant Whitford was killed on this occasion.
    There is little to record of the next two months, which were passed in the same area, except that the difficulty of obtaining recruits for battalions of the 16th Division began to make itself felt within six months of its arrival in France. At the end of May the 9th Munster Fusiliers was disbanded to provide drafts for other battalions, and replaced by the 1st Battalion. There were very few casualties, the only loss in officers being 2nd-Lieutenants P. Holden and F. S. M'Carthy [McCarthy] wounded. The Division remained in this region after the opening of the Somme battle, in the early stages of which it was not engaged.

    In the following chapter we shall see that all three battalions, 1st, 2nd, and 7th, were in action in that battle within the first ten weeks.

    V. - THE BATTLE OF GINCHY.

    The 7th Battalion was in the Hulluch area throughout the months of July and August. The line, after the great gas attacks, was generally quiet, and casualties comparatively few. On the night of July 31st there was a curious incident. A raid was attempted by the Battalion, without success. The enemy's wire was found to be insufficiently cut. After an effort to penetrate it by means of its wire-cutters, the raiding party returned to our trenches. A few minutes later the enemy raided in his turn. If, as seems probable, this raid was made in retaliation and organized on the spur of the moment, it was creditable to the German battalion or company concerned. A raid carried out immediately after the failure of one by the other side has advantages so obvious that the uninitiated may wonder why it was not more often attempted. As a fact, the most successful raids were generally those prepared for weeks in advance, over "dummy" trenches, reproduced from aeroplane photographs of the trenches to be attacked, worked to a strict time-table, with every man trained to carry out exactly and without hesitation his particular part of the programme. Raids hurriedly improvised often ended in hopeless confusion, the men losing their way in the dark, and being comparatively helpless when once out of the control of their officers and non-commissioned officers. Among Colonial troops, who had a highly developed personal initiative, such raids were commoner and frequently successful. The Australians, the country-dwellers among whom had an extraordinary sense of direction and power of memorizing the features of ground seen in daylight, practised them frequently, though for the most part at a period later than this; asking no more of their artillery than that it should not shoot upon such-and-such trenches over such-and-such a period.
    In this case the Royal Irish Rifles were nearly caught napping. Somewhat imprudently, the majority of the officers in the front line had gone back to report to the Commanding Officer at Battalion Headquarters upon their attempted raid. The men themselves, showing, for young troops, very creditable presence of mind, saved the situation. When the sentries in the saps fell back to the front line trench to give warning of what was coming, bombing squads, formed under non-commissioned officers, rushed into position to cover these saps. Showers of bombs kept the enemy from pushing down them into the main trench. By the time supports had moved up from the second line he was gone. Our losses were 4 killed and 6 wounded, and the enemy took no prisoners. One officer was wounded during August 2nd-Lieutenant Macnamara.
    On August 24th the 48th Brigade was relieved by a brigade of the 32nd Division, which had had heavy losses on the Somme. After a few days' rest it entrained for the

    72

    [ 1916 ]

    73

    GINCHY: SEPTEMBER 9TH [ 1916 ]

    battle area, detraining at Longueau on the 30th and marching to Corbie, on the Somme River. Thence it moved slowly forward to the ruined village of Guillemont, where the 7th Royal Irish Rifles relieved two battalions of the 47th Brigade, in the support line. The village had been taken but four days earlier, as part of the series of attacks which had advanced our line at this latitude to a point nearly six miles from the original front. To the north-east was the village of Ginchy, already taken but lost to a German counter-attack. It was now to be attacked by the 16th Division, in conjunction with other attacks upon the southern portion of the British battle-front.
    For three days the Battalion remained in the village, consolidating it with the aid of the Engineers. There was no shelter but a few dug-outs, in which in the darkness men sometimes happened upon strange and grisly house-mates, and the shelling was very heavy. Casualties were numerous. On the night of the 6th the Battalion, though holding the support line, sent forward three strong patrols to locate the enemy's position at Ginchy. They were fired upon, and Lieutenants Morgan and Williams were killed. Next evening the Battalion took over the front, which was about half-way between the two villages.
    What the war diaries, ever optimistic, knew as the" accommodation," consisted in this case of shell-holes, sometimes linked together by little trenches. The night of the 8th was spent in digging assembly trenches. At this point Germans and British were widely separated, and the diggers, moving forward quietly in the darkness, were enabled to tape out and dig their front line nearly two hundred yards in front of the position held, thus giving themselves so much shorter distance to go in the attack. They dug before morning light four successive lines, forty yards apart, each capable of holding four platoons, west of the sunken road between Guillemont and Ginchy, while the men of the 1st Munsters were employed on the same task east of the road. They then took up their assembly positions, four companies in line, from right to left "B," A," " C," and " D," each in four waves on a frontage of a single platoon. Though the attack was not to take place till late in the afternoon of the following day, it was obvious that no movement would be possible after dawn.
    The 16th Division was attacking with the 47th Brigade on the right and the 48th on the left, the latter having the village of Ginchy as its objective, the boundary between the two being at the " jumping-off line," the Hardecourt - Ginchy road. The boundary between the 48th Brigade's two first-line battalions was, as has been stated, the Guillemont - Ginchy road. The experience of early defeats in this battle had taught the advisability of short objectives, and in this case, though the final line beyond Ginchy was not more than a thousand yards from the assembly trenches, the attack was to be made by four battalions, two" leap-frogging " the two in the lead upon the first objective, the road running from Delville Wood to the middle of the village. The second two battalions were to pass through the leaders at "zero" plus forty minutes. The attack was to be made by the 1st Munsters and 7th Royal Irish Rifles in front line, the 8th and 9th Dublins in second, named from right to left in each case.
    "Zero" was fixed for 4.45 p.m. The intention was presumably to vary the usual dawn attack which was expected by the enemy. Another advantage was that, with a short objective, there would be just time for some consolidation before dusk, and very little for an organized German counter-attack. Such were the advantages of the scheme, and in other parts of the front they may not have been balanced by serious hazards. In the case of the 48th Brigade, and above all of the 7th Royal Irish Rifles, the plan caused very heavy loss of life, and might easily have led to a disastrous failure of the

    73

    [ 1916 ]

    74

    THE ROYAL IRISH RIFLES IN THE GREAT WAR

    attack. The assembly trenches were only too visible to the German observation officers, and they had a good nine hours of daylight to pound them with their guns. It is easy to imagine that losses were high. But there was loss from a reason less creditable to the authorities in rear.
    At 7.55 a.m. the Brigade received a report from the Royal Irish Rifles, and soon afterwards one of a like tenor from the Munsters, that our artillery was bursting shells in their front line and causing heavy casualties. Apparently the account of these battalions having gone forward two hundred yards to dig their assembly trenches had not reached all the batteries of the numerous artillery brigades supporting the attack, or had not been understood. According to the Brigade's report, it was batteries of the Guards' Divisional Artillery and the 61st Brigade R.F.A. that caused the trouble.
    However this may be, what with the bombardments of the enemy and our own side, Colonel Francis reported to his brigadier, at 2 p.m., that his battalion, which had gone into action somewhat weak, had not much more than a hundred and fifty bayonets for the assault. As there was grave doubt whether this force would suffice to take the first objective, the 48th Brigade asked for further troops, and was given the 7th Royal Irish Fusiliers, of the 49th Brigade. To bring this battalion up into line there was none too much time, while from the moment it left the cover of Guillemont it was exposed to heavy fire. Largely through the skill and energy of its commanding officer, it was in its place in time, behind the Royal Irish Rifles. There were thus five battalions under the command of the General Officer Commanding 48th Brigade to carry out the assault.
    At "zero" the waves went forward, energy and dash unabated by the dreadful pounding of the day and the toil of the preceding night. The Riflemen, backed up by the Royal Irish Fusiliers on the left, the Munsters on the right, reached the German front line, on the outskirts of the village, and took it in a moment, killing or taking prisoner most of the Germans in it, though a handful managed to escape and run back to the second line. The "going" being fairly sound, Stokes mortars of the 48th Light Trench Mortar Battery arrived with the men of the Royal Irish Rifles, and very useful they proved. Just behind the German front line a stout-hearted officer had raffled a party of forty men, possessed of one or two light machine guns, which prepared to dispute the second advance. The mortars were withdrawn a little, set up in shell-holes, from which their rapid fire of small shells was opened over the heads of the infantry. In a few minutes the whole German party surrendered to the latter. The range of the Stokes was then lengthened to aid the troops about to pass through to the second objective.
    Punctually at 5.25 p.m. the 9th Dublins came through. But, as happened not seldom in such cases, when men's blood was up and they were excited by a preliminary success, a number of the Riflemen could not be held by the few officers remaining, and went forward with the Dublins, through the village, to the second objective, which was also taken. They even went beyond the objective. This was risky, as the attack had not gone too well elsewhere, and the advance had been checked east of Delville Wood, A subaltern officer of the 7th Royal Irish Rifles, whose name is not recorded, brought back his own men and the Dublins to the proper line. The former were then led back to the first objective, and the work of consolidation set in hand. Colonel Francis had been knocked down by a shell-burst and severely shaken. Lieut.-Colonel E. Bellingham, the officer commanding the 8th Dublin Fusiliers, the supporting battalion on the right, accomplished very fine work in the organization of the whole line. By midnight the village was in a sound state of defence. Half an hour later what remained of the Battalion

    74

    [ 1916 ]

    75

    LOSSES AT GINCHY [ 1916 ]

    was relieved, staggered back to Carnoy, was shipped into motor-buses and taken to the Happy Valley, near Albert, where the men lay down and slept, and marched next day to the comfort of Corbie.
    The losses in this affair were enormous. Those of the 48th Brigade amounted to fourteen hundred, about half its infantry strength in going into action. The Battalion had killed, Major Cairnes and 2nd-Lieutenant Capper; missing, believed killed, and-Lieutenant Keown; wounded, Major Lash, Captain Taggart, 2nd-Lieutenants Bayham (who died soon afterwards), Devereux and Boyle. Of other ranks, 39 were killed and 260 wounded and missing. A large proportion of this loss was, of course, due to the terrible bombardment from dawn to the hour of the assault. The Battalion had fought with hereditary Irish dash. The success of the 16th Division on this occasion was the more creditable in that upon the rest of the front the attack failed. To complete the work begun by it was needed one of the greatest attacks of the whole Somme battle, when tanks were employed for the first time.
    A few days of rest followed, but hardly had men emerged from that strange and merciful trance which seems to follow such experiences, when they were moved back by bus to Longpré and entrained for the north. They reached Godewaersvelde on the afternoon of September 21st, and marched to billets at La Clytte, a mile and a half north of Kemmel Hill. On the evening of the 23rd they relieved Canadian troops in the neighbourhood of Vierstraat, at the southern corner of the Ypres Salient.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 357 ✭✭JohnThomas09


    arnhem44 wrote: »
    His Date of date on the CWGC site is showing him as died in 1916,will check the Irish Memorial records later to cross reference this

    Casualty Details

    Name:KERRIGAN,THOMAS

    Initials:T

    Nationality:United Kingdom

    Rank:Rifleman

    Regiment/Service:Royal Irish Rifles

    Unit Text:7th Bn.

    Date of Death:07/09/1916

    Service No:7247
    Casualty Type:Commonwealth War Dead

    Grave/Memorial Reference Pier and Face 15 A and 15 B.
    Thanks for that.I'm not sure if thats my relative.I read in the Leitrim Guardian 1984 Edition that their was a Thomas Kerrigan,Manorhamilton killed on the 07-09-1914.I found a T Kerrigan on CWGC website who died on this date but he was Born in Dublin.

    How could I confirm that the Thomas Kerrigan who died in 1916 was related to me?Is there any way of finding out where he was from?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭arnhem44


    If somebody here can look up Ancestry for you his enlistment details may be on there,this should give his address(town/City),where he enlisted and sometimes a gaurdians name,depending what can be found on here can be used to cross reference the cencus records and if he's on the cencus you should be able to narrow the different Thomas Kerrigans down till you find who's who,sadly I don't have access to Ancestry so hopefully someone here can find something for you.Do you know what medal entitlements were to your Thomas Kerrigan?,knowing this can narrow your search right down due to dates of entitlement.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ponster


    >Thanks for that.I'm not sure if thats my relative.I read in the Leitrim Guardian 1984 >Edition that their was a Thomas Kerrigan,Manorhamilton killed on the 07-09-1914.I >found a T Kerrigan on CWGC website who died on this date but he was Born in Dublin.


    I think you're getting mixed up with something. I really, really doubt that we have 2 Thomas Kerrigans, who both died the same day. The "Manorhamilton" means that's where he lived/signed up and not where he was born.


    I already looked up Ancestry on the History thread and found 6 "Thomas Kerrigan"s, all born in England except Thomas Kerrigan, Co Roscommon, dob: 1884, married to Mary.

    We don't seem to have the service records for the T, Kerrigan mentioned above who died on 07-09-1914, just the medal card.


    I don't see how you'll be able to confirm that he's the guy that you're looking for though. Do you know if your T Kerrigan died? Do you know if his middle name began with a T ?


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 357 ✭✭JohnThomas09


    Ponster wrote: »
    >
    I think you're getting mixed up with something. I really, really doubt that we have 2 Thomas Kerrigans, who both died the same day. The "Manorhamilton" means that's where he lived/signed up and not where he was born.
    No i dont think their was 2 Thomas Kerrigan's who died on the same day.From the CWGC database i have found:
    1)Thomas Kerrigan who died on 07-09-1916
    2)T Kerrigan who died on the 10-09-1914.

    Ponster wrote: »
    > I already looked up Ancestry on the History thread and found 6 "Thomas Kerrigan"s, all born in England except Thomas Kerrigan, Co Roscommon, dob: 1884, married to Mary..
    I have the 1911 census records for my realtion and he was 16 years of age in 1911.This could be him.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭arnhem44


    Checked the Irish Memorials Records and theres four T or Thomas Kerrigans listed,one of these is Thomas Kerrigan already listed as being killed in action on sep 7th 1916,further info says born Manorhamilton Leitrim,I myself can find no other Kerrigan listed in the R.I.R only this one and the other kerrigans that have died on similar dates only different years are coming up as being in different regiments,I think maybe the date of year given in the Leitrim Guardian must be a mistake.He's age was twenty three at his time of death listed below.If this is indeed your man and then he was killed in the Somme offensive and the previous info should be able to give you his whereabouts at his time of death.
    Forename
    KERRIGAN
    THOMAS
    7247
    RIFLEMAN
    7TH ROYAL IRISH RIFLESath
    SOMME, FRANCE
    1916
    MANORHAMILTON, CO. LEITRIM
    23


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭arnhem44


    just had a look for kerrigan on the cencus,his age would of been 17/18 if he died 1916,the only one I can find in leitreim at the time is a Thomas Kerrigan aged 17 living in Tawnamachugh.
    This of course may not be him but have a look anyway.

    http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Leitrim/Glencar/Tawnamachugh/656331/


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ponster



    I have the 1911 census records for my realtion and he was 16 years of age in 1911.This could be him.


    True, that could be him. The only way of knowing is by asking in the family if he was ever married to a Mary. I can get their exact home address from Ancestry and post it here later.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 357 ✭✭JohnThomas09


    arnhem44 wrote: »
    just had a look for kerrigan on the cencus,his age would of been 17/18 if he died 1916,the only one I can find in leitreim at the time is a Thomas Kerrigan aged 17 living in Tawnamachugh.
    This of course may not be him but have a look anyway.

    http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Leitrim/Glencar/Tawnamachugh/656331/
    thats close but not exact.There was a lot of Kerrigan's in Tawnmachugh.the following link his him,aged 16. http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Leitrim/Glencar/Tawnamachugh/656332/

    is that any help to you?Thanks for your help so far.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 357 ✭✭JohnThomas09


    arnhem44 wrote: »
    Forename
    KERRIGAN
    THOMAS
    7247
    RIFLEMAN
    7TH ROYAL IRISH RIFLESath
    SOMME, FRANCE
    1916
    MANORHAMILTON, CO. LEITRIM

    23
    the Leitrim Guardian probably have the wrong date.In the Leitrim Guardian his Rank no is 7247.that would be a match for the above.I have seen with the 1901 and 1911 census's that there can be differences of more than 10 years in people's date of birth.His date of birth may have been recorded wrong on the 1911 census and he may infact have been older than recorded.This is only my own theory.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭arnhem44


    I did see that one on the Cencus but had him ruled out due to the age of the KIA soldier who was 23 in 1916,Ya I have noticed the Cencus can be misinterpreted when reading them,are those two lots of kerrigan's related?,out of curiousity.Sometimes when men enlisted they often lied about there age and even who they were from time to time not saying that this man in question had reason to.From whats found I would be inclined to say that Thomas Kerrigan who died 1916 is your man,it may of just been a simple mispelling in the paper at the time when it was printed.Have you anything belonging to him from his time at war,like were his medals claimed by the family or a pension of any sorts


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 357 ✭✭JohnThomas09


    arnhem44 wrote: »
    I did see that one on the Cencus but had him ruled out due to the age of the KIA soldier who was 23 in 1916,Ya I have noticed the Cencus can be misinterpreted when reading them,are those two lots of kerrigan's related?,out of curiousity.Sometimes when men enlisted they often lied about there age and even who they were from time to time not saying that this man in question had reason to.From whats found I would be inclined to say that Thomas Kerrigan who died 1916 is your man,it may of just been a simple mispelling in the paper at the time when it was printed.Have you anything belonging to him from his time at war,like were his medals claimed by the family or a pension of any sorts
    Im not actually sure if they were related(probably).

    I first heard of Thomas being mentioned in an interview done with his brother Charlie Kerrigan(who took part in the Indian Mutiny 1920).He said he had two brothers who fought in the Great War,Thomas and Dinny(prob not his real name),Dinny lived but was left deaf for life.He moved to Australia in 1920.Do you think that Thomas may be the same man who was mentioned in previous posts as being married to Mary.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 357 ✭✭JohnThomas09


    Ponster wrote: »
    True, that could be him. The only way of knowing is by asking in the family if he was ever married to a Mary. I can get their exact home address from Ancestry and post it here later.
    if you could get the exact address,it would be great.Im going ask a few relations to see what they know.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ponster


    Im not actually sure if they were related(probably).

    I first heard of Thomas being mentioned in an interview done with his brother Charlie Kerrigan(who took part in the Indian Mutiny 1920).He said he had two brothers who fought in the Great War,Thomas and Dinny(prob not his real name),Dinny lived but was left deaf for life.He moved to Australia in 1920.Do you think that Thomas may be the same man who was mentioned in previous posts as being married to Mary.


    Did Charlie marry? It should be possible to get the marriage certs for both Charlie and the Thomas who married Mary and check if they have the same parents.

    What would 'Dinny' be short for ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 357 ✭✭JohnThomas09


    Ponster wrote: »
    Did Charlie marry? It should be possible to get the marriage certs for both Charlie and the Thomas who married Mary and check if they have the same parents.

    What would 'Dinny' be short for ?
    ya Charile did marry,he married Florence Fallon of Calry on the 12-09-1923.I know everyone of his descendats,right down to myself.

    Thomas is the mystery.Dinny is probably short for Dennis,they had a brother named Dennis on the 1901 census.


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ponster


    Denis Kerrigan, Royal Irish Rifles, Regimental number 7/6384, Theater : France 1915

    That's problem him (I imagine the 3 brothers all joined the same regiment?)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 357 ✭✭JohnThomas09


    Ponster wrote: »
    Denis Kerrigan, Royal Irish Rifles, Regimental number 7/6384, Theater : France 1915

    That's problem him (I imagine the 3 brothers all joined the same regiment?)
    Thats great help.
    Thomas and Dennis would have joined the Royal Irish Rifles around 1914.

    Charile joined the Connaught Rangers in 1918,he was based in India,were the Mutiny took place on the 28 June 1920,after which he was one of fourteen sentenced to death but he later had his sentence reduced to life imprisonment.He was released in 1923 after the Treaty and went back to live in the homestead in Tawnmachugh.

    Does it give any other information on Dennis?


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ponster


    No more info on Denis (yet!)

    But it seems that the Thomas I found (from Roscommon, married to Mary) probably isn't your guy as he was in the ASC Supply Branch Corps.

    If I was a gambling man (which I am) I'd say that Thomas Kerrigan, RIR, REg #7247 is your man though proving that is going to be almost impossible with the records that are available today.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 357 ✭✭JohnThomas09


    Ponster wrote: »
    No more info on Denis (yet!)

    But it seems that the Thomas I found (from Roscommon, married to Mary) probably isn't your guy as he was in the ASC Supply Branch Corps.

    If I was a gambling man (which I am) I'd say that Thomas Kerrigan, RIR, REg #7247 is your man though proving that is going to be almost impossible with the records that are available today.
    i definetley agree with you I now think that is our man,His rank no in the Leitrim Guardian in 7247.so id say thats our man.What more information could you get for me on him?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭arnhem44


    i definetley agree with you I now think that is our man,His rank no in the Leitrim Guardian in 7247.so id say thats our man.What more information could you get for me on him?


    Have you read any of this before,if not its worth going through and will give you an idea what may be possible to find on a soldier and how to go about doing it.

    http://www.1914-1918.net/grandad/grandad.htm


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 357 ✭✭JohnThomas09


    arnhem44 wrote: »
    Have you read any of this before,if not its worth going through and will give you an idea what may be possible to find on a soldier and how to go about doing it.

    http://www.1914-1918.net/grandad/grandad.htm
    Thanks for all your help guys.I've looked through that link and most of the army records are only viewable at the National Archives in UK,this involves a visit.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭arnhem44


    Sure does.Anyone here ever been to the archives in Kew?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭arnhem44


    Can anyone throw some light on this man,his name is Bartholomew McCarthy,a third class air mechanic KIA on the 21/11/1918

    http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=2743878


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ponster


    arnhem44 wrote: »
    Can anyone throw some light on this man,his name is Bartholomew McCarthy,a third class air mechanic KIA on the 21/11/1918

    http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=2743878


    Off to the shops so don't have much time but I found a Bartholomew McCarthy, born 1881 in St Annes, Cork who joined the Royal Engineers but his number isn't the same as the one you listed (301252) though soldiers had different numbers for different regiments.


    p.s. Not him. your guy died in 1918, mine still alive in 1919


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭arnhem44


    He's buried in a local graveyard but he doesn't appear on Irelands Memorial Records and it doesn't give any next of kin details from the CWGC.I can only assume he's local considering where the burial ground is and another guess is that he must of been at home when he passed away.


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ponster


    arnhem44 wrote: »
    and another guess is that he must of been at home when he passed away.

    Maybe seeing as he died 10 days after the war had ended.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    had a look on Ancestry but nothing found. It's possible that he was Royal Naval Air Service rather than Army prior to the creation of the RAF in which case his info won't be on Ancestry.

    The only references to an "Air Mechanic" I can find on the UK National Archives are for a different McCarthy

    http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?queryType=1&resultcount=1&Edoc_Id=6722067


    On the basis thar he could have died on a trip back to Ireland rather than on service, I had a look at the 1911 census and Bartholomew McCarthy seems to be a name focused in Co Cork - 11 found in Ireland; 9 of them in Cork.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭arnhem44


    Thanks for the help lads,pity his age wasn't given in the casualty details.Hopefully someone out there has something on him.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,264 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Did you try the graveyard?
    They should have a record of who owned/paid for the grave (probably relatives).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭arnhem44


    it's a CWGC headstone,the graveyard in question is completely overgrown and is in the middle of private land with a public right of way and is very seldom used,the church that was once near this graveyard is long since gone so I don't know who would have the records for such places,I do know that many of the records for these graveyards are in public hands and not the church around here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭arnhem44


    Lads can anyone give some info on this soldier.I don't believe he was a casualty as there's no record of him on the CWGC,his name and serial number is 6993 SJT.A.J.LOWES IRISH GUARDS.What I'm looking for is his date of entry into a theatre of war and hopefully some info about where he was from.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ponster


    From Google but I guess you already know it?

    BTW, it's A. T. Lowes and not A. J.

    British War and Victory Medals (6993 Sjt., Ir. Gds.)

    Alfred Thomas Lowes, who was from East Ham, Essex, enlisted in the Irish Guards in March 1915, aged 23 years. Going out to France with the 2nd Battalion in August 1915, he gained advancement to Lance-Corporal in the following month and to Lance-Sergeant in September 1916, but was wounded on the 15th of the latter month and evacuated home. Rejoining his Battalion out in France soon after the end of hostilities, Lowes was finally discharged back home in April 1919.

    From Ancestry :
    Alfred Thomas Lowes
    Estimated birth year: abt 1892
    Age at Enlistment: 23
    Residence: 5 Boundary Rd, East Plam Essex
    Document Year: 1915
    Regimental Number: 6993
    Number of Images: 6

    Pension records and medal card available from Ancestry.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ponster


    At a guess I'd say he married Gladys D B Temlett in 1924.

    They only had the one child, Terence V Lowes, born 1925 in West Ham.
    Terrence seems to have married Eileen I O'Connell in Harlow in 1949.

    The only matching possible death is
    Alfred T Lowes
    Death Registration Month/Year: 1963
    Age at death (estimated): 71
    Registration district: Horsham
    Inferred County: Sussex
    Volume: 5h
    Page: 1028


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭arnhem44


    Ponster wrote: »
    From Google but I guess you already know it?

    BTW, it's A. T. Lowes and not A. J.




    From Ancestry :



    Pension records and medal card available from Ancestry.

    Hi Ponster,once again thanks for helping out on this one.You are correct with the initial,I misread it from his medal,interesting that you turned up the info of him being wounded.If I might ask,where did that info come from,I tried a straight forward search on Google and it turned up nothing that I could see,but by going by my eyesight today,hmm!


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ponster


    I got it from DNW auctioneers

    I'll go through the pension records later today and see if it matches with their info.

    edit :it seems he signed up in Match 1915, was wounded in 1916 and headed back to the UK and was sent back to France on 25-11-1918 ( a little late! ) I can't make out the writing on the record explain what type of injury. I'll post it up here later.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭arnhem44


    Well that was handy,none of that info was passed on with the medals.Thanks.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    he's on the 1901 census with parents Alfred, a Police Constable, and mother Elizabeth. Both aged 35 and both born Middlesex. 2 younger sisters. The granny Elizabeth McGee is there, aged 65, a widow from Ireland (looks like possibly Cork). Also 38year old Stephen McGee in the house. Born Middlesex.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭arnhem44


    Thanks lads for all the help,its after building up a much bigger picture of this soldier than what I was expecting.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭arnhem44


    Ponster wrote: »
    I got it from DNW auctioneers

    I'll go through the pension records later today and see if it matches with their info.

    edit :it seems he signed up in Match 1915, was wounded in 1916 and headed back to the UK and was sent back to France on 25-11-1918 ( a little late! ) I can't make out the writing on the record explain what type of injury. I'll post it up here later.
    Just to update this one,I've had a look at that record and it seems he suffered a gun shot wound to his finger and I think also to his hand,he also was in hospital for something else but I can't make out the writing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭arnhem44


    Can anyone tell me,are the Attestation papers available for casualties on Ancestry or are they only available to people who survived the war?,or is it a case that a lot of these records got destroyed in the blitz?


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ponster


    arnhem44 wrote: »
    Can anyone tell me,are the Attestation papers available for casualties on Ancestry or are they only available to people who survived the war?,or is it a case that a lot of these records got destroyed in the blitz?

    Can't answer your first question (though I believe that once the papers exist then they're available no matter if the person survived or died) but yes, more than 50% of the WWI records were destroyed in the blitz.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭arnhem44


    Thanks Ponster,I might try and go through the names again and see if they turn up anything,not had any luck the first time around, only MIC's and SDGW entries for them.Maybe I'm just doing something wrong myself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 457 ✭✭AUDIE MURPHY


    Hi, i was wondering if any one here could help me with more info than i have on my great grand father. i have checked the obivous listings and i have found that in the census of 1911 in dublin he was aged 34 and then i found out on his war records he was killed in 1915 aged 31?????? was there an age limit on men enlisting in the royal dublin fusiliers. his name is Jeremiah Barnes ID number S87 unit number 6953. also i would like to know what medals he was awarded. he was killed in Flanders on the 24th of may 1915.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    hi Audie, he was entitiled to the 1915 star,Victory medal, and British war medal, he entered France on the 3/5/1915 and was presumed killed on the 24/5/1915, all this info came from his medal index card,I will look to se if he has any service records still existing.If you want a copy of his MIC ,send me your email.The dublin fusiliers were subjected to a gas attack at Mouse trap farm on the 24/5/1915.
    Reagrsd,
    KK


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 457 ✭✭AUDIE MURPHY


    Thanks a lot for that info kk, i was stuck with what i had . i knew about the battle they were gased in. also i have found his name on the memorial .do you know of any reason why his age was different for both records. also i would be very greatful for the medal card i will pm you my email. do you know if i can find out if the medals were given to
    next of kin . and how do i go about gettings copies of them. audie


  • Advertisement
Advertisement