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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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Comments

  • #6652
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Have a look at the map in there, it's not overly difficult for people to work it out.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-train_(Copenhagen)


  • #6653
    AngryLips
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,761 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Geuze wrote: »
    Navan - future EMU, say 2tph, with 4tph after Dunboyne?


    I would imagine if Navan ever goes ahead, it would be built as Dart from the get-go. It's similar distance to the city as Drogheda and probably with fewer intermediate stops.

    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Yes, DART is the brand for regular stop services in the Dublin area.


    Says who?


  • #6654
    Shedite27
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,428 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    Effects wrote: »
    What are the chances of getting land from a golf club though?

    I realise we're all in "what-if-land" here but back in Celtic Tiger each member of that Golf Club had their eyes on a €125k each for the sale of the whole premises. A lot of members sill have notions of this type of thing happening, so thy wouldn't go cheap


  • #6655
    MaccaTacca
    Registered Users Posts: 142 ✭✭MaccaTacca


    How long will it take a DART to go from Connolly to Drogheda? It takes the Greystones DART 50 minutes to go 27km, according to Google Maps Drogheda is 47kms from Connolly.

    I know this is opening up a different can of worms entirely, but the current DART service as it is, is painfully slow.

    Take Bray to Pearse for example, thats a distance of 19km but takes almost 40 minutes to complete. A similar service in Europe or the UK would take 20 minutes max.

    Will these new expansions mean that services are even slower for the existing lines?


  • #6656
    cgcsb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,755 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    MaccaTacca wrote: »
    How long will it take a DART to go from Connolly to Drogheda? It takes the Greystones DART 50 minutes to go 27km, according to Google Maps Drogheda is 47kms from Connolly.

    I know this is opening up a different can of worms entirely, but the current DART service as it is, is painfully slow.

    Take Bray to Pearse for example, thats a distance of 19km but takes almost 40 minutes to complete. A similar service in Europe or the UK would take 20 minutes max.

    Will these new expansions mean that services are even slower for the existing lines?

    Yes, unless there are express services from the further stops as discussed above.


  • #6657
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,924 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    MaccaTacca wrote: »
    How long will it take a DART to go from Connolly to Drogheda? It takes the Greystones DART 50 minutes to go 27km, according to Google Maps Drogheda is 47kms from Connolly.

    I know this is opening up a different can of worms entirely, but the current DART service as it is, is painfully slow.

    Take Bray to Pearse for example, thats a distance of 19km but takes almost 40 minutes to complete. A similar service in Europe or the UK would take 20 minutes max.

    Will these new expansions mean that services are even slower for the existing lines?

    Quoting hypothetical journey times while not actually looking at what sort of service is operated and what sort of infrastructure is in place is pointless.

    Pearse to Bray is a two track railway, with no overtaking facilities.

    DART is operated as an all stations stopping suburban service from Pearse to Bray, with 14 intermediate stops at a frequency of every 10 minutes. A similar service in Europe or the UK certainly would not take 20 minutes max. You are comparing apples with oranges.

    With a clear track, a non-stop a train could get Pearse to Bray in just under 20 minutes. But that isn't realistic as there is no real scope for adding extra tracks and overtaking (except perhaps if Dun Laoghaire were to be remodelled), and intermediate stations still need to be served.

    Without seeing detailed proposed service patterns and stopping patterns, no one can answer your question in detail regarding the Northern Line.

    What I will say is that the current commuter train journey times from Connolly to Drogheda vary between 54 minutes and an hour.

    You will get some improvement in journey times on outer suburban services between Malahide and Drogheda from the improved acceleration that electric trains deliver, but the journey time between Connolly and Malahide on such services won't see any great improvement unless they can overtake the stopping all stations DART in front of them between Connolly and Howth Junction.

    Hence the need for additional tracks to facilitate overtaking between north of Clontarf Road and Raheny.


  • #6658
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,666 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    On this DART naming thing, the weirdest thing for me about having a DART to Drogheda is in the name. Drogheda isn't even in the Greater Dublin Area!


  • #6659
    loyatemu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,107 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    MaccaTacca wrote: »
    How long will it take a DART to go from Connolly to Drogheda? It takes the Greystones DART 50 minutes to go 27km, according to Google Maps Drogheda is 47kms from Connolly.

    I know this is opening up a different can of worms entirely, but the current DART service as it is, is painfully slow.

    Take Bray to Pearse for example, thats a distance of 19km but takes almost 40 minutes to complete. A similar service in Europe or the UK would take 20 minutes max.

    Will these new expansions mean that services are even slower for the existing lines?

    the south eastern line is very slow due to the track being very curved in places (e.g between Dun Laoghaire and Sandycove where the limit is something ridiculous like 20mph), there's also a lot of stations.

    Time to Drogheda will depend on the top speed of the new rolling stock and the stopping pattern; it won't necessarily be slower than the existing commuter service.


  • #6660
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,924 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Yes, unless there are express services from the further stops as discussed above.

    Operating a mix of stopping (inner) and semi-fast (outer) services has always been the plan.

    I don't know where you got the notion that all stations would be served by every train from Connolly to Drogheda, but I can only assume that you presumed that because the project name included "DART", that this would be the case.

    But such a journey could add at least 10 minutes to the current journey time between Connolly and Drogheda and simply would not have the capacity to carry everyone. That isn't a runner.

    The question is where will the interchange between the two services happen.


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  • #6661
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The NTA decided some time ago that all DARTS stop at all stations.

    Now it would make sense for, say, Greystones trains to stop at Bray, DL, Blackrock, Sydney Parade, Lansdowne, GCD, Pearse, etc. The problem would come from the stopping train in front. Such patterns would only be possible if there were passing loops or third rails at various points on the line.

    What is needed is faster transit - your know, the RAPID bit in the name. We have the same with LUAS crawling through town at walking pace which is ironic given the name. The rail based transit should be based on networks of routes that provide fast transit with flexible routes rather than fixed single lines. It should be possible to plan a minimum change or change free route for many of the common start and end points. Metrolink will of course help with this

    The current proposals are all centred on An Lar type thinking. Not everyone is going to An Lar. In fact where is An Lar anymore?


  • #6662
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,924 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The NTA decided some time ago that all DARTS stop at all stations.

    Now it would make sense for, say, Greystones trains to stop at Bray, DL, Blackrock, Sydney Parade, Lansdowne, GCD, Pearse, etc. The problem would come from the stopping train in front. Such patterns would only be possible if there were passing loops or third rails at various points on the line.

    What is needed is faster transit - your know, the RAPID bit in the name. We have the same with LUAS crawling through town at walking pace which is ironic given the name. The rail based transit should be based on networks of routes that provide fast transit with flexible routes rather than fixed single lines. It should be possible to plan a minimum change or change free route for many of the common start and end points. Metrolink will of course help with this

    The current proposals are all centred on An Lar type thinking. Not everyone is going to An Lar. In fact where is An Lar anymore?

    Other than at Dún Laoghaire, where there is room for remodelling to the north of the existing station, there is no scope for extra tracks, so limited stop DART services are very limited in scope.


  • #6663
    loyatemu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,107 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    Other than at Dún Laoghaire, where there is room for remodelling to the north of the existing station, there is no scope for extra tracks, so limited stop DART services are very limited in scope.

    could be done at locations between Bray and Killiney too, but the benefits would be marginal.


  • #6664
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    Other than at Dún Laoghaire, where there is room for remodelling to the north of the existing station, there is no scope for extra tracks, so limited stop DART services are very limited in scope.

    Well, there is room at Sydney Parade for a third rail and third platform*, and there is room between Sydney Parade and Booterstown. There is plenty of room along the line in various places, but a passing arrangement at DL would certainly help and if Sydney Parade had a passing arrangement that might be enough.

    *IR actually own a strip of land on the east side of the station.


  • #6665
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,924 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    loyatemu wrote: »
    could be done at locations between Bray and Killiney too, but the benefits would be marginal.

    They would be non-existent benefits operationally, let's be honest, that's why I didn't even raise it as a suggestion.


  • #6666
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    MJohnston wrote: »
    On this DART naming thing, the weirdest thing for me about having a DART to Drogheda is in the name. Drogheda isn't even in the Greater Dublin Area!

    Is there an official designation for the GDA?


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  • #6667
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Is there an official designation for the GDA?

    I think the fact that it's a commuter service going to Dublin permits use of GDA in this context.


  • #6668
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,924 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Well, there is room at Sydney Parade for a third rail and third platform*, and there is room between Sydney Parade and Booterstown. There is plenty of room along the line in various places, but a passing arrangement at DL would certainly help and if Sydney Parade had a passing arrangement that might be enough.

    *IR actually own a strip of land on the east side of the station.

    Really there isn't "plenty of room" along the line southeast of Pearse.

    The land between south of Merrion Gates and Booterstown either side of the railway is protected, so additional tracks there are not an option.

    Holding a train at Sydney Parade for overtaking would then lead to uneven headways at stations south of there, as the next train wouldn't necessarily be overtaken which isn't really optimal operating practice.

    An overtaking/turnback facility at Dún Laoghaire really is the only option.


  • #6669
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    MJohnston wrote: »
    On this DART naming thing, the weirdest thing for me about having a DART to Drogheda is in the name. Drogheda isn't even in the Greater Dublin Area!

    Dublin Bus are not restricted to Dublin.


  • #6670
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Is there an official designation for the GDA?
    MJohnston wrote: »
    On this DART naming thing, the weirdest thing for me about having a DART to Drogheda is in the name. Drogheda isn't even in the Greater Dublin Area!

    It is. Partly.

    The GDA is Dublin, Wicklow, Kildare, Meath. To not include Drogheda in that definition ignores the fact that the southern portion of the Drogheda urban area through Stameen is in Meath. It would actually be such a weird thing to not include it within a definition of the GDA given its own suburbs such as Laytown, Bettystown and Mornington are within the GDA.

    Anyway, it makes perfect sense to include Drogheda within the DART expansion.


  • #6671
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,042 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    AngryLips wrote: »
    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Yes, DART is the brand for regular stop services in the Dublin area.
    Says who?

    Everyone! DART at present is a high frequency service with trains stopping at all stations on the core route mostlyinsidethe continuous builtup urban area. Should it also be the brand for lower frequency, limited stop services going much further out? I don't think it should, that is a different type of service so should have a different name along with other similar services.


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  • #6672
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,666 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    It is. Partly.

    The GDA is Dublin, Wicklow, Kildare, Meath. To not include Drogheda in that definition ignores the fact that the southern portion of the Drogheda urban area through Stameen is in Meath. It would actually be such a weird thing to not include it within a definition of the GDA given its own suburbs such as Laytown, Bettystown and Mornington are within the GDA.

    Anyway, it makes perfect sense to include Drogheda within the DART expansion.

    Nah, the vast majority of Drogheda is in Louth, so I think it's fair to say it's outside the GDA. I suspect even the NTA only defined the GDA to include Meath because of Ashbourne, Dunboyne, etc. rather than the north-eastern sections of that county.

    That aside though, my opinion is that applying the DART label to distant towns in the Greater Dublin Area is a massive stretch, and they should just use a different brand for those services.

    In fact, I believe that post DART+ three out of four of the Commuter branded lines will be electrified, and I reckon that's a better brand for these "semi-fast outer" services.


  • #6673
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,924 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The branding, let's be honest, is an issue for further along the process when the new rolling stock is being ordered and delivered.

    If there are separate fleets (one with a toilet, one without), then separate branding is easy, but if it is a common fleet then it will be more difficult.

    Right now I think it's probably better to focus on the tons of infrastructure documentation on DART+ West that there is to assimilate.


  • #6674
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Yes, DART is the brand for regular stop services in the Dublin area. It already covers multiple routes, as with Howth and Malahide. Two more regular stop services in the Dublin area are to be added to west Dublin, putting those routes under the DART brand is consistent and makes sense. Adding an intermittent stopping service travelling 50km out from Dublin city centre doesn't make sense. Imagine explaining to someone to take the DART but make sure to get the inner stopping DART not the outer semi-fast DART. Is DART just the brand name for electrified lines now? Or can we put all commuter services into Dublin under DART as well, regardless of the service pattern they operate? Keeping DART in the Dublin area (as per the name) with regular stops and having another name for intermittent stop services from further out would make more sense.

    Numbering works fine for buses and other rail networks across the world without such confusion. I really don't see your point here.

    Stupid people tend to learn quicker when their inconvenienced so maybe this "confusing" situation will have some positives outcomes. There is also large info boards at each station not only to tell people where the train is going but all the intermittent stops as well. Then there is other massive technology breakthroughs such as mobile phone apps and Google which will tell them instantly what train to get if all the above is too much to work out.


  • #6675
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Numbering works fine for buses and other rail networks across the world without such confusion. I really don't see your point here.

    Stupid people tend to learn quicker when their inconvenienced so maybe this "confusing" situation will have some positives outcomes. There is also large info boards at each station not only to tell people where the train is going but all the intermittent stops as well. Then there is other massive technology breakthroughs such as mobile phone apps and Google which will tell them instantly what train to get if all the above is too much to work out.

    The only confusion that will arise is if they split trains in service. Announcements such as: 'The first four coaches are for Howth, the last four are for Malahide' will panic some passengers.


  • #6676
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,924 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The only confusion that will arise is if they split trains in service. Announcements such as: 'The first four coaches are for Howth, the last four are for Malahide' will panic some passengers.

    With high frequency suburban operations, I doubt that splitting will be an option.


  • #6677
    riddlinrussell
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    With high frequency suburban operations, I doubt that splitting will be an option.

    Unless they do it all dramatic and hollywood style without stopping :eek:


  • #6678
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,924 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    riddlinrussell wrote: »
    Unless they do it all dramatic and hollywood style without stopping :eek:

    Slip carriages?

    Eh no...don't think that the rule book would be too happy with that!!! :-)


  • #6679
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,666 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    The branding, let's be honest, is an issue for further along the process when the new rolling stock is being ordered and delivered.

    I actually kind of disagree on this point—I think branding is very important for selling the service to the public, which is necessary even as early as the public consultation.

    And I think that's why they've named it DART+ right now, rather than something else, because it is a brand that connotes speed of service.


  • #6680
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    MaccaTacca wrote: »
    How long will it take a DART to go from Connolly to Drogheda? It takes the Greystones DART 50 minutes to go 27km, according to Google Maps Drogheda is 47kms from Connolly.

    I know this is opening up a different can of worms entirely, but the current DART service as it is, is painfully slow.

    Take Bray to Pearse for example, thats a distance of 19km but takes almost 40 minutes to complete. A similar service in Europe or the UK would take 20 minutes max.

    Will these new expansions mean that services are even slower for the existing lines?

    Quad tracking or over taking loops are you only option here.

    Take Heuston - Hazelhatch for example. It takes a stopper 20 mins to complete the journey while a non stopping service can cover it in 11 mins. It's a similar distance to Connolly and Malahide and also has less stops. Something similar to Malahide would knock about 15mins off Northern bound trains.

    Same situation for the Wexford line and Sligo is likely going to suffer the same issues. Terminating some Darts at DL could be done tomorrow and would add massive improvements to Wexford services ect. There is very little else you can do with the wexford line due to its nature. The new Pelletstown station should be built for quad tracking. There is enough space to quad the line between Glasnevin and M50 granted Ashtown and Navan road would need to be rebuilt.


  • #6681
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The only confusion that will arise is if they split trains in service. Announcements such as: 'The first four coaches are for Howth, the last four are for Malahide' will panic some passengers.

    Well that won't be happening


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  • #6682
    Brian CivilEng
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,031 ✭✭✭Brian CivilEng


    I remember at peak times there used be one DART that went from Connolly non-stop to Howth junction. An acquaintance of mine once got on it by accident when coming to visit me in Raheny, and despite only requiring a train change and another 2min journey it was enough for them to swear off using the DART in the future. (Granted they have gotten lost multiple times when driving but nothing said about that).

    Simplicity matters.


  • #6683
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    MJohnston wrote: »
    I actually kind of disagree on this point—I think branding is very important for selling the service to the public, which is necessary even as early as the public consultation.

    And I think that's why they've named it DART+ right now, rather than something else, because it is a brand that connotes speed of service.

    Anything is possible with the NTA, I wouldn't be surprised to see them mess around deliveries act but Dart is a very successful brand and was an instant hit when launched and very easy to associate its purpose it would be madness to change it. Its brand or livery haven't changed much since its launch. DART will be kept for other suburban services as people see DART as a positive.


  • #6684
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,666 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Anything is possible with the NTA, I wouldn't be surprised to see them mess around deliveries act but Dart is a very successful brand and was an instant hit when launched and very easy to associate its purpose it would be madness to change it. Its brand or livery haven't changed much since its launch. DART will be kept for other suburban services as people see DART as a positive.

    Well, while I think it makes sense to call these Maynooth/Kildare/Drogheda extensions "DART+" during the planning phase, I'd like to see them explore a new brand for those services in the long run, as it would help with the simplicity that Brian mentions above.

    DART = rapid + all-stopping + local service
    ? = rapid + limited stop + outer service
    Commuter = regular speed + limited stop + outer service
    Intercity = regular speed + express + intercity service


  • #6685
    Lord Glentoran
    Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭Lord Glentoran


    Brian CivilEng wrote: »
    I remember at peak times there used be one DART that went from Connolly non-stop to Howth junction. An acquaintance of mine once got on it by accident when coming to visit me in Raheny, and despite only requiring a train change and another 2min journey it was enough for them to swear off using the DART in the future. (Granted they have gotten lost multiple times when driving but nothing said about that).

    Simplicity matters.

    Reminds me of the time when someone got on a Maynooth train, despite announcements and the big blue lower panel with “commuter” on it, and then berated the staff on the platform at Connolly after getting off in a panic, claiming the train looked too much like a DART. Horse to water, etc...


  • #6686
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,924 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Well, while I think it makes sense to call these Maynooth/Kildare/Drogheda extensions "DART+" during the planning phase, I'd like to see them explore a new brand for those services in the long run, as it would help with the simplicity that Brian mentions above.

    DART = rapid + all-stopping + local service
    ? = rapid + limited stop + outer service
    Commuter = regular speed + limited stop + outer service
    Intercity = regular speed + express + intercity service

    I would agree - I think that the DART+ is fine for now during the planning.


  • #6687
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    I would agree - I think that the DART+ is fine for now during the planning.

    They could return to the old CIE logo - the flying snail.


  • #6688
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,042 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Well, while I think it makes sense to call these Maynooth/Kildare/Drogheda extensions "DART+" during the planning phase, I'd like to see them explore a new brand for those services in the long run, as it would help with the simplicity that Brian mentions above.

    DART = rapid + all-stopping + local service
    ? = rapid + limited stop + outer service
    Commuter = regular speed + limited stop + outer service
    Intercity = regular speed + express + intercity service

    I agree with this. Was Arrow used previously for some services, perhaps it could be used. Not sure Arrow (or another suitable name) and Commuter are both needed, they are probably really the same thing. They could originate from places like Drogheda, Mullingar, Newbridge, etc. as suitable.

    I also think it is relevant at this stage as it feeds into service patterns.


  • #6689
    highdef
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,324 ✭✭✭highdef


    Brian CivilEng wrote: »
    I remember at peak times there used be one DART that went from Connolly non-stop to Howth junction. An acquaintance of mine once got on it by accident when coming to visit me in Raheny, and despite only requiring a train change and another 2min journey it was enough for them to swear off using the DART in the future. (Granted they have gotten lost multiple times when driving but nothing said about that).

    Simplicity matters.

    I remember that train well, before the days of Clontarf Road especially. I used to get it whenever I could as the train would travel sedately from Connolly to the bridge at North Strand. Then, assuming that driver had a clear run all the way, full throttle was applied and it was full speed all the way to Kilbarrack, 100 km/h all the way with horn blaring on the approach to each intermediate station. I timed it a few times and around 5 minutes from North Strand bridge to stopping at Howth Junction was not uncommon.

    Apologies for digressing!


  • #6690
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    highdef wrote: »
    I remember that train well, before the days of Clontarf Road especially. I used to get it whenever I could as the train would travel sedately from Connolly to the bridge at North Strand. Then, assuming that driver had a clear run all the way, full throttle was applied and it was full speed all the way to Kilbarrack, 100 km/h all the way with horn blaring on the approach to each intermediate station. I timed it a few times and around 5 minutes from North Strand bridge to stopping at Howth Junction was not uncommon.

    Apologies for digressing!

    It's up there with the old 16.20 from DL that was non-stop to Pearse. good times.

    Anyway...


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  • #6691
    Geuze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,738 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Everyone! DART at present is a high frequency service with trains stopping at all stations on the core route mostlyinsidethe continuous builtup urban area. Should it also be the brand for lower frequency, limited stop services going much further out? I don't think it should, that is a different type of service so should have a different name along with other similar services.

    In my opinion, regional trains starting in Longford / Navan / Dundalk / Drogheda / Kildare, etc. should be different from IC and DART.


    DART = stop at all stations, within, say, 20km of Dublin.


  • #6692
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    It is interesting how they are breaking up and branding this project. It is basically made up of 4/5 separate projects.

    DART+ West - Maynooth/M4
    DART+ South West - Hazelhatch
    DART+ Coastal North - Drogheda
    DART+ Coastal South - Bray/Greystones
    DART+ Fleet

    The 4 lines will each have a separate rail order.

    I think this is a good way to break down the projects into smaller projects and thus more likely to fly under the public radar.


  • #6693
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    bk wrote: »
    It is interesting how they are breaking up and branding this project. It is basically made up of 4/5 separate projects.

    DART+ West - Maynooth/M4
    DART+ South West - Hazelhatch
    DART+ Coastal North - Drogheda
    DART+ Coastal South - Bray/Greystones
    DART+ Fleet

    The 4 lines will each have a separate rail order.

    I think this is a good way to break down the projects into smaller projects and thus more likely to fly under the public radar.

    Will they be getting dual mode trains? [Battery/o/h electric]


  • #6694
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Will they be getting dual mode trains? [Battery/o/h electric]

    That seems to be what they suggest on the IR site:

    https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/about-us/iarnrod-eireann-projects-and-investments/dart-programme/fleet-investment
    Up to 600 electric / battery-electric hybrid vehicles

    Iarnród Éireann, supported by the NTA, commenced the tender process to order the largest and greenest fleet in Irish public transport history in May 2019 for up to 600 electric / battery-electric powered vehicles over a 10-year timescale.

    While purely electrically powered trains are expected to make up the overwhelming majority of train orders, the tender process allows for the supply of battery-electric hybrid trains.

    This is to ensure that, should funding provision or planning processes see the electrification of the first of the lines be completed beyond 2024, that new trains will be available from that date to meet the surging demand from commuters.

    Ultimately, the overall order will see the Greater Dublin Area (GDA) total rail fleet and up to 80% of all heavy rail journeys in Ireland, set for a potentially emissions-free future.

    I'd suggest the majority will be pure electric, to replace the ageing trains on the North-South line and increase capacity there. I'd doubt there will run into any issues on electrifying to Dorgheda on that line.

    Dual mode ones perhaps more likely for the West and South-West lines to hedge their bets in case Electrification is delayed on those lines.


  • #6695
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    BTW from the reports, I note that they look at a "Rail Unlimited" scenarios in the modelling.

    These two scenarios look to require 32 TPHPD through Connolly and over the Loop line Bridge! Anyone know if that (32 TPTHD) is actually technically possible with upgrades to Connolly/LLB or is it just an exercise in the theoretical?

    And if it is possible, are they looking to do that with the current D+ plan or would it be a future capacity upgrade as and when needed?

    If I'm not mistaken, the current City Center Signalling project supports 20 TPHPD through the LLB.

    32 TPHPD would allow for incredible capacity across these lines. For instance from Drogheda in, you would be looking at a DART every 3.75 minutes. Bray in every 3.33 minutes, with it dropping to every 1.87 minutes from GCD in! From Maynooth/Hazelhath a train every 3.75 minutes.

    That would really be impressive. But if Connolly/LLB can handle 32 TPHPD is the big question.


  • #6696
    loyatemu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,107 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    bk wrote: »
    That would really be impressive. But if Connolly/LLB can handle 32 TPHPD is the big question.

    IR struggle to run the current timetables reliably and there are often delays across the LLB for various reasons. I can't see them managing even 20 TPH, never mind 32. Signalling is only part of the issue.


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  • #6697
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    loyatemu wrote: »
    IR struggle to run the current timetables reliably and there are often delays across the LLB for various reasons. I can't see them managing even 20 TPH, never mind 32. Signalling is only part of the issue.

    Well I'd assume that the current Connolly Yard project and the D+ projects would look to resolve that or at least attempt to. The question I'm wondering is would it be to 20 level or 32 level.


  • #6698
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Would it be worth splitting the thread into various threads exclusive to each separate project as they all have different timelines?

    Would be easier to find issues relating to a particular bridge on one line etc and make it easier to attract in posters not normally on here who are only interested in their own local line.

    It could also help with the tactic of splitting off the perception of the overall cost into smaller figures.


  • #6699
    Markcheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,574 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    I don't think "branding" will cause too many problems overall , the biggest problems the current dart and luas have isn't branding, it's capacity ..
    If you build the capacity the public will use it .. wether it's called dart plus ,dart west , the regular users will learn pretty quick which trains do or don't have loos ,or which are stopping or not ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #6700
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Would they not just move sligo/M3 services peremently to spencer Dock. It would ease issues in connolly and speed up the sligo line. Passengers could access the city center either via broombridge luas or spencer Dock luas


  • #6701
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Markcheese wrote: »
    I don't think "branding" will cause too many problems overall , the biggest problems the current dart and luas have isn't branding, it's capacity ..
    If you build the capacity the public will use it .. wether it's called dart plus ,dart west , the regular users will learn pretty quick which trains do or don't have loos ,or which are stopping or not ..

    It doesn't say it for certain, but reading the reports, I get the impression that there won't be separate electric commuter and DART services. It will all just be DART.

    The report seems to treat them all largely the same, just talking about where they terminate, which would make me thinking there won't be any express services and they will be stopping at every stop along the way.

    I could totally be wrong about that, just my impression.

    Plus reading the reports, I think people will need to get use to the DART network being more complicated and will need to consider the destination before boarding.

    Trains will be terminating at lots of different places, Connolly, Grand Canal Dock, Dun Laoighare, Bray, Greystones, Spencer Dock, Heuston, Clongriffin, Malahide, Dundalk.
    roadmaster wrote: »
    Would they not just move sligo/M3 services peremently to spencer Dock. It would ease issues in connolly and speed up the sligo line. Passengers could access the city center either via broombridge luas or spencer Dock luas

    Based on the report, they found that the Northern line will be the busiest, followed by the Maynooth line being pretty busy too, the Hazelhath line will be much quieter compared to the other two lines.

    As a result, they are giving highest priority for which trains pass through Connolly/LLB to the Northern line, then followed by the Maynooth line.

    The south-west line being quietest line, it makes sense to dump them into Spencer Dock. Folks from this line who want to go to the likes of Tara/Grand Canal/etc., can change onto one of the Maynooth line trains at Cross & Guns.


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