Irish Rail MK3 Coaches - North Wall Update

end of the road · 23-10-2014 1:54pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

Buying a set of light powercars, doing a refurbishment and rewire might have extended their life for quite a while.

I'm not sure that the MK4s made a whole lot of sense without buying powercars either though. That was a huge mistake.

One of the biggest issues that I've heard about anyway seems to be the 201 locomotives causing excessive track wear. They were obviously a mistake from day one as the spec could have been a lot better andb gentler on the infrastructure.

your talking about irish rail here. that is all

Jamie2k9 · 23-10-2014 1:56pm

I'm not sure that the MK4s made a whole lot of sense without buying powercars either though. That was a huge mistake.

Agree about powercars as they were getting a lighting/fast loco to replace 201's on the route but that didn't happen as it was at the start of the crash.

There is nothing good about the Mark4s apart from the color which looks quiet good. Best in the fleet.

SpaceTime · 23-10-2014 5:05pm

Well they've probably got awards for their huge numbers of vast wheelchair accessible talking toilets!
Shame they didn't put in automatic ramps as while you can get into the toilet no problem in a wheelchair boarding the train is impossible without assistance.

TheBandicoot · 05-11-2014 8:41pm

Seems all has been revealed.http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20141105006215/en/Belmond-Launch-Luxury-Touring-Train-Ireland#.VFp8vMvFLqB

Converted to a sleeper/observation set to tour Ireland. Presumably IE will operate the actual services?

flyingsnail · 05-11-2014 8:49pm

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Seems all has been revealed.http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20141105006215/en/Belmond-Launch-Luxury-Touring-Train-Ireland#.VFp8vMvFLqB

Converted to a sleeper/observation set to tour Ireland. Presumably IE will operate the actual services?

The article says that IE will provide the haulage and depot services.

corktina · 05-11-2014 8:53pm

what price other touring trains now?

You'd have to take them seriously when this is their 7th venture.

end of the road · 05-11-2014 8:55pm

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Seems all has been revealed.http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20141105006215/en/Belmond-Launch-Luxury-Touring-Train-Ireland#.VFp8vMvFLqB

Converted to a sleeper/observation set to tour Ireland. Presumably IE will operate the actual services?

amazing that they will be able to get these carriges which were left out in the elements to rot back into service

Judgement Day · 05-11-2014 9:17pm

end of the road wrote: »

amazing that they will be able to get these carriges which were left out in the elements to rot back into service

Delighted to see this happening but once again it illustrates the criminal waste of scrapping all the other MkIIIs. Heads should roll but they won't and anyway Varadkar who was ultimately responsible has moved on.

end of the road · 05-11-2014 9:39pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Varadkar who was ultimately responsible has moved on.

ah shur what else would we expect apart from the same old same old? nothing changes in the world of irish politics. i agree with you though on the waste. clearly we will probably need more rolling stock to operate services, all though IE moving away from operational convenience and operating the stock on the routes each type is designed for, + growing the cork route again so the mark 4s can come back in full, should help a bit. but we will be waiting i'd say.

corktina · 05-11-2014 9:52pm

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/new-160m-train-line-is-failing-to-get-passengers-30719976.html

seen this? passenger figures falling on several lines ...guess which ones!

end of the road · 05-11-2014 9:58pm

corktina wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/new-160m-train-line-is-failing-to-get-passengers-30719976.html

seen this? passenger figures falling on several lines ...guess which ones!

well in fairness no surprises there. 2 trains each way on limerick junction down from 3 was always going to see a drop in usage. ballybroaphy, well considering it and the WRC take forever and a day to complete the journey its no surprise hardly anyone uses them. we had the money to save nenagh and limerick junction rosslare but miss management after miss management saw rosslare waterford die and will see limerick ballybroaphy die. maybe even limerick junction waterford also, but i'm holding out hope for that lines survival

csd · 05-11-2014 10:10pm

Captain Chaos wrote: »

VSOE thing is a joke that was taken as truth by some. It's pure fantasy.

Seems it was true after all!

/csd

Grandeeod · 05-11-2014 10:45pm

Amusing. Best of luck to them anyway. We shall see. Hopefully it gets lift off.

ClovenHoof · 05-11-2014 11:33pm

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Seems all has been revealed.http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20141105006215/en/Belmond-Launch-Luxury-Touring-Train-Ireland#.VFp8vMvFLqB

Converted to a sleeper/observation set to tour Ireland. Presumably IE will operate the actual services?

I am actually in shock reading this.

Ireland's first sleeper train service I take it?

Judgement Day · 05-11-2014 11:50pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

I am actually in shock reading this.

Ireland's first sleeper train service I take it?

Nope, there was some sort of sleeper service - don't ask what route - in the 19th century. Also, I slept in one of the accommodation vans on the weedspray train in Foynes back in 198x - does that count? Had breakfast too!

Captain Chaos · 06-11-2014 12:21am

What I find interesting now is where to store all this stock. I thought IE wanted to sell alot of land around Inchicore and want the RPSI out of there to make room? As it is there is the heritage set, 8 Cravens, 2 Mk1 GSVs and a 141 from them all on site. Then there is IE's stored/withdrawn stock, 13 201s, a few 141s, a 121, all the Alstom DARTs and all the 2700s. And now a rake of 10 Mk3s that will be worked on till 2016 and may be out on the network perhaps twice a year?

Great to see that a few example of the best coaching stock ever to run in the country will be kept on and refitted.

end of the road · 06-11-2014 12:58am

Captain Chaos wrote: »

I thought IE wanted to sell alot of land around Inchicore

i'd doubt they would get much for it at the moment. frankly i think they should keep some of it and build a full railcar depot so that lock stock and barrel from droghida and portlaoise can be transferred to dublin, but they'res more chance of the world ending. the chance of that is 0

ClovenHoof · 06-11-2014 2:07am

Captain Chaos wrote: »

What I find interesting now is where to store all this stock.

As Chinese-Made Razor Blades.

corktina · 06-11-2014 9:00am

Captain Chaos wrote: »

What I find interesting now is where to store all this stock. I thought IE wanted to sell alot of land around Inchicore and want the RPSI out of there to make room? As it is there is the heritage set, 8 Cravens, 2 Mk1 GSVs and a 141 from them all on site. Then there is IE's stored/withdrawn stock, 13 201s, a few 141s, a 121, all the Alstom DARTs and all the 2700s. And now a rake of 10 Mk3s that will be worked on till 2016 and may be out on the network perhaps twice a year?

Great to see that a few example of the best coaching stock ever to run in the country will be kept on and refitted.

Twice a year? Oh no, I think you'll find it used much more than that. There's a huge market for this sort of thing.

corktina · 06-11-2014 9:02am

end of the road wrote: »

i'd doubt they would get much for it at the moment. frankly i think they should keep some of it and build a full railcar depot so that lock stock and barrel from droghida and portlaoise can be transferred to dublin, but they'res more chance of the world ending. the chance of that is 0

where's the logic there? Drogheda and Portlaoise are far better placed to service the fleet and land there is cheaper than Dublin.

Cookie_Monster · 06-11-2014 9:39am

corktina wrote: »

where's the logic there? Drogheda and Portlaoise are far better placed to service the fleet and land there is cheaper than Dublin.

a single location would obviously be better than several from a personnel, resource and equipment duplication point of view, especially for such a small overall fleet.

corktina · 06-11-2014 10:31am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

a single location would obviously be better than several from a personnel, resource and equipment duplication point of view, especially for such a small overall fleet.

Why so? makes no sense to have to keep moving stock through the tunnel with all the capacity problems that raises.

LXFlyer · 06-11-2014 10:38am

Captain Chaos wrote: »

What I find interesting now is where to store all this stock. I thought IE wanted to sell alot of land around Inchicore and want the RPSI out of there to make room? As it is there is the heritage set, 8 Cravens, 2 Mk1 GSVs and a 141 from them all on site. Then there is IE's stored/withdrawn stock, 13 201s, a few 141s, a 121, all the Alstom DARTs and all the 2700s. And now a rake of 10 Mk3s that will be worked on till 2016 and may be out on the network perhaps twice a year?

Great to see that a few example of the best coaching stock ever to run in the country will be kept on and refitted.

I think you'll find it will be in use far more than that - do you seriously think an organisation is going to spend millions refurbishing the trains to just run them once or twice a year? This is a commercial business that will want to get bang for its buck.

The three trains in the UK are in use all year round.

Grandeeod · 06-11-2014 11:22am

http://www.belmond.com/grand-hibernian-train/

On their site.

Captain Chaos · 06-11-2014 11:36am

Still s sleeper train in Ireland though?. The longest trip say from Belfast to Cork with a turnaround in Dublin would take about a maximum of 5 hours. And IE don't allow passengers on trains during shunting moves except for Killarney. To me Ireland is too small for a sleeper train imo, but I'm sure the market/business model research has been done.

TheBandicoot · 06-11-2014 11:41am

Do we know which carriages are involved in this? Presume an EGV is being used?

LXFlyer · 06-11-2014 11:48am

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Still s sleeper train in Ireland though?. The longest trip say from Belfast to Cork with a turnaround in Dublin would take about a maximum of 5 hours. And IE don't allow passengers on trains during shunting moves except for Killarney. To me Ireland is too small for a sleeper train imo, but I'm sure the market/business model research has been done.

The passengers on these tours in the UK often sleep on the train when it is stabled somewhere - not when it's on the move.

ClovenHoof · 06-11-2014 12:40pm

I can't believe a rake of Mk3s has been saved which will add a whole new dimension to the rail network and complaining and moaning goes into overdrive.

corktina · 06-11-2014 1:27pm

It's a very positive move.

You should be thinking of the train as a mobile hotel, not as a sleeper train. It doesn't matter whether the train is in motion or not. It would be completely acceptable for it to stable somewhere interesting for the evening and then move on at some stage during the night. Passengers could then enjoy a run out around the town and return to their own rooms for the night and wake up somewhere new for breakfast. I'm not really sure how they would fill a while week, but I'm sure they would.

(What happens to the Cravens now I wonder? too little too late?)

LXFlyer · 06-11-2014 1:28pm

I think the point to make is that this is a luxury touring train hotel - it is not a standard sleeper train that people will travel on overnight.

It's a very versatile business.

I think people should look through the company website to see what they offer across the water, which varies wildly in nature, before rushing to judgements about what is on offer. It's not really like anything we have seen in Ireland before.

http://www.belmond.com/british-pullman-train/
http://www.belmond.com/northern-belle-train/
http://www.belmond.com/royal-scotsman-train/

As I said already, no commercial company is going to stump up the money to refurbish these coaches, which presumably will be several million, to see them lie idle in a siding for much of the year.

corktina · 06-11-2014 1:37pm

quote from one of those links

With the train stabled at night in a quiet siding or station, a good night's sleep is guaranteed.

Grandeeod · 06-11-2014 1:39pm

corktina wrote: »

quote from one of those links

With the train stabled at night in a quiet siding or station, a good night's sleep is guaranteed.

Lots of them in Ireland.:D

corktina · 06-11-2014 1:40pm

the return of Mk3s and loco haulage on a regular basis... rejoice. Let's hope it's a big sucess

Grandeeod · 06-11-2014 2:32pm

corktina wrote: »

(What happens to the Cravens now I wonder? too little too late?)

I guess the Belmond gig certainly means the end of the Emerald Isle express. With Belmonds marketing strength, they can promote the Grand Hibernian worldwide.

I wonder did Rail Tours Ireland get wind of this last year and try to get ahead of the game?

flyingsnail · 06-11-2014 3:03pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

I guess the Belmond gig certainly means the end of the Emerald Isle express. With Belmonds marketing strength, they can promote the Grand Hibernian worldwide.

I wonder did Rail Tours Ireland get wind of this last year and try to get ahead of the game?

I wouldnt be so sure, they may be operating in the same market but I think they might be looking at different clients. The Emerial Isle is 3.5k for 8 days. Looking at their scotish sleeper for that I could get 3 days where as the 8 day tour would be 6990 sterling (or 8930 depending on the trip).

(I am just guessing since they don't have any Irish prices listed)

end of the road · 06-11-2014 3:11pm

corktina wrote: »

where's the logic there? Drogheda and Portlaoise are far better placed to service the fleet and land there is cheaper than Dublin.

they are way out of the way, at least portlaoise is . land being cheeper is all well and good but when its causing more inefficientsy then we have a problem

corktina · 06-11-2014 3:19pm

flyingsnail wrote: »

I wouldnt be so sure, they may be operating in the same market but I think they might be looking at different clients. The Emerial Isle is 3.5k for 8 days. Looking at their scotish sleeper for that I could get 3 days where as the 8 day tour would be 6990 sterling (or 8930 depending on the trip).

(I am just guessing since they don't have any Irish prices listed)

The Emerald Isle is grossly overpriced and using stock that will be totally outclassed by a Royal Scotsman type operation, not to mention the promotion ability of them

end of the road · 06-11-2014 3:20pm

corktina wrote: »

Why so? makes no sense to have to keep moving stock through the tunnel with all the capacity problems that raises.

it makes more sense then running units empty to portlaoise at least. droghida is a bit better with a new facility in the dublin area to deal with everything (i wonder will we get new EMUS for DU and a new facility to look after them?) if so then they may as well build it to take care of everything. shorter empty running, and economies of scale comes to mind.

flyingsnail · 06-11-2014 3:25pm

corktina wrote: »

The Emerald Isle is grossly underpriced and using stock that will be totally outclassed by a Royal Scotsman type operation, not to mention the promotion ability of them

Thats what I mean, they are different offerings at different price points in the market, the start of one doesn't necessarily mean the end of the other.

Judgement Day · 06-11-2014 3:34pm

It's possible for the 'ordinary' punter to get in on the action too! Belmond shares are openly traded http://markets.ft.com/research/Markets/Tearsheets/Summary?s=BEL:NYQ and while they don't currently pay a dividend they may be other benefits and they are cheap at the moment - and falling.

corktina · 06-11-2014 4:16pm

flyingsnail wrote: »

Thats what I mean, they are different offerings at different price points in the market, the start of one doesn't necessarily mean the end of the other.

the Emerald Isle had barely started, was undersubscribed and was planned to run just once a year. Hardly likely to produce a return on the assets employed imo.

Judgement Day · 06-11-2014 4:42pm

Jim Deegan is one smart cookie and don't be surprised if he ends up owning Belmond or at the very least CEO of its Irish operations.

LXFlyer · 06-11-2014 5:02pm

corktina wrote: »

the Emerald Isle had barely started, was undersubscribed and was planned to run just once a year. Hardly likely to produce a return on the assets employed imo.

I would not be that negative about it - as another poster says they're different products.

The "assets" are all owned by someone else, the RPSI, so it's not the same situation.

Neither you nor I know how many people they needed to break even, you're just making a very big assumption that it was "undersubscribed" and therefore not making a profit.

Why is it that every time someone announces/does something positive on Irish Railways that we end up with a lot of negative comments (and I am making that as a general comment rather than aiming at anyone in particular)? Some positive thinking would not go amiss at all.

I certainly see room for both operators.

corktina · 06-11-2014 5:48pm

undersubscribed means empty seats and there certainly were those.

A once a year tour doesn't need much room admittedly but then are the prospective passengers going to wait for a specific week (and they chose the Autumn rather than the summer this year!) or will they find a choice of dates with the new set up more attractive?

(I suggest you see my post 184 if you think I'm negative!)

corktina · 06-11-2014 5:50pm

Maybe a Mod could strip this discussion off to a thread of it's own?

LXFlyer · 06-11-2014 6:10pm

corktina wrote: »

undersubscribed means empty seats and there certainly were those.

A once a year tour doesn't need much room admittedly but then are the prospective passengers going to wait for a specific week (and they chose the Autumn rather than the summer this year!) or will they find a choice of dates with the new set up more attractive?

(I suggest you see my post 184 if you think I'm negative!)

Well I think we should wait and see - it's rather early to be making judgements of that magnitude.

flyingsnail · 06-11-2014 6:13pm

It was successful enough that they are already advertising next years tour.

http://www.railtoursireland.com/train-tour/Emerald-Island-Express/st2014/
Ignore the date in the URL the correct date is on the site

GM228 · 06-11-2014 8:29pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I would not be that negative about it - as another poster says they're different products.

The "assets" are all owned by someone else, the RPSI, so it's not the same situation.

Neither you nor I know how many people they needed to break even, you're just making a very big assumption that it was "undersubscribed" and therefore not making a profit.

Why is it that every time someone announces/does something positive on Irish Railways that we end up with a lot of negative comments (and I am making that as a general comment rather than aiming at anyone in particular)? Some positive thinking would not go amiss at all.

I certainly see room for both operators.

Well I say fairplay to Belmond and Railtours, best of luck to both companies-may they have many years of success and gives us plenty of trains to spot!

GM228

corktina · 06-11-2014 8:42pm

flyingsnail wrote: »

It was successful enough that they are already advertising next years tour.

http://www.railtoursireland.com/train-tour/Emerald-Island-Express/st2014/
Ignore the date in the URL the correct date is on the site

That was advertised before it even ran

AlekSmart · 07-11-2014 6:46pm

corktina wrote: »

quote from one of those links

With the train stabled at night in a quiet siding or station, a good night's sleep is guaranteed.

Ah c'mon now why did you tippex Broombridge out......it even has a ring to it...The Broombridge Belmont....snappy and easy to remember ?

Irish Rail MK3 Coaches - North Wall Update

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