Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Engineering / teaching maths

24

Comments

  • #52
    Derek M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25 ✭Derek M


    It is quite staggering alright. They just point blank don't want to listen. The hardest thing to stomach is that they have the last say.

    Without a teaching number from them, it is very hard to find employment and impossible to get onto the graded salary scale.

    They are basically saying that although the various engineering subjects are mathematically based, they are not the type of maths they are looking for. They have told me that the Maths I studied in Engineering in not the LC Maths. It doesn't say this in any of their documentation and it takes so long to get any responses from them that many people are left in limbo.

    But the funny side is that now after almost completing my so called 'catch -up' year in Maths I can say that not all the topics I am currently studying are on the LC course either.

    I do not see why engineers (post PGDE) cannot register for the teaching of Applied Mathematics. Engineering is in essence the application of Maths. The subjects is intended to help students who go on to study engineering and on a rather comical note, some of the teacher training inservices for Applied Mathematics teachers are given by...you guessed it!!! Engineers.

    In my opinion they will not register us as Applied Maths teachers because it sounds ridiculous to register somebody for Applied Mathematics and not Mathematics.

    Unfortunately it seems to be a losing battle trying to deal with the TC. The whole process has dragged on for almost two years for me. The worst part is when I eventually get my Teachers number I will have to start paying them €90 per year for the privilage!!!


  • #53
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    clartharlear wrote: »
     The study of Mathematics as a major subject in the degree extending over at least three years and of the order of 30% at a minimum of that period

    So, each year is worth 60 credits, so they want at least 180 credits, not specifying the years. And they want of the order of 30% of that 180 to be maths. (Hmm let me see if I can get a maths teacher to help me with that.)

    UCC Electical Engineering is 4 years long at 60 credits per year - so 240 credits. The TC would require 30% maths content - so that would actually be 72 credits. They would not accept 55 credits from a 240 credit degree (even though 55 credits is 55 credits, surely!) - I know because I have had this problem with them myself.

    I really hope all of you can get something done about this ridiculous situation though. Anybody can see that engineering should allow you to teach maths! I sympathise with your troubles dealing with the TC - they are the most incompetent organisation I have ever had the misfortune to deal with. Good luck!


  • #54
    clartharlear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 489 ✭✭clartharlear


    I know really. Just idle wishing and hoping on my part!


  • #55
    dan_d
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    Lads,
    Thinking about this over the weekend, and also speaking to a teacher about it - you need to challenge them on it.
    Until very recently, this was not a problem. Now all of a sudden it is. They need to introduce a system here - if they were telling you (AND it's on their website) that it was okay until Feb, to teach maths with an eng degree, but suddenly it isn't, then they are not being consistent. Furthermore they cannot just implement a blanket ban, considering some people have the H.Dip since before they implemented this ban.If that's the way they are going they should be pulling a lot of current teachers out of schools, who don't have maths degrees. What they should be doing is implementing a cut off date....if you have you HDip prior to the..31st Dec 09, then okay you can teach. After that, we are reviewing the system.

    At the end of the day, they are civil servants, who firstly obviously don't understand half the degrees coming out of colleges, and secondly, are fire fighting since there is suddenly a lot of attention on maths.

    If you started your HDIp when ot was their policy that it was acceptable to teach with an eng degree, then as far as I can see you've a leg to stand on. Challenge them on it...and keep challenging them. If nothing else, force them into a position where they have to draw up a consistent set of guidelines. Send letters to papers, to Eng Irel, to the ASTI and the TUI...theres another article in yesterdays papers with the ASTI backing engineers to teach. Make a noise. Don't just sit back and accept it. They are in the wrong, not you.


  • #56
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,009 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Derek M wrote: »
    Hi Guys,

    I came across your thread and said I would give you all some info on my experience.
    Absolutely incredible. I got a A in honours Maths a long time ago and went on to do Engineering. The maths in Engineering is far more complex and you should easily be able to teach Maths at any level with your degree.


  • #57
    clartharlear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 489 ✭✭clartharlear


    dan_d wrote: »
    theres another article in yesterdays papers with the ASTI backing engineers to teach.

    Which paper is this? You don't have any links to an online article do you? AFAIK, ASTI have never mentioned the engineer/maths issue, just the teaching of maths in general.

    http://www.businessandleadership.com/news/article/21485/leadership/maths-teaching-needs-to-change-engineers-warn
    “Engineers Ireland has undertaken a thorough review of the current framework in this area and key actions now necessary include greater resourcing of the Project Maths initiative, the requirement for teachers to have specific education qualifications in maths and the sciences to teach these subjects, as well as tax breaks for teacher retraining.

    “Engineers Ireland is currently working with the Department to convert these actions into real change and ensure more engineers are graduating to meet the needs of the Smart Economy,” Power added.


  • #58
    Derek M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25 ✭Derek M


    Hi dan

    I fought with the TC long and hard over this. I was onto the ASTI, the applied mathematical teachers association, my department here at Uni and the Dean of Engineering here at NUIG. Nothing helped. Maybe I should have went further (Batt O'Keefe when he was minister or something or the media) but to be honest the process was so drawn out that I felt I needed to rectify the situation for myself as soon as possible. I had a part-time job offer and you need TC registration to be correctly employed.

    AT the end of the day the TC has the last word, the government has passed on all responsibility with teacher registration to them. They say who has the correct subjects and to what level. They look at things in black and white and obviously do not understand the content of some of the degrees coming out of the uni's. They told me that they were going to take the Eng degrees off the approvals list but they didn't.

    To get approval your degree needs to be on the list and must satisfy individual subject criteria i.e. that mathematics is major subject (30%) of you degree. They argue that we do not have the correct mathematics to satisfy this requirement. It's not true and I tried to prove them otherwise through their appeals system but failed.

    I agree that the TC needs to be forced on this issue; it is affecting too many people.


  • #59
    TheDriver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,575 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    and at the moment, they won't because there is plenty of people out there who are qualified in the eyes of the TC to teach Maths and no need to fill any shortages.


  • #60
    MathsManiac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭MathsManiac


    But the teachers you are referring to are not registered with the council as teachers of mathematics. The problem is that you can register with the council as a teacher of business studies, biology, or whatever, and then, once you're employed in the school, the principal can assign you classes in other subjects, such as mathematics.

    Therefore, your assertion that, when registering maths teachers, the council prefers these people to engineering graduates does not hold water.


  • Advertisement
  • #61
    TheDriver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,575 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    One thing which is creeping into this thread which concerns me to be honest is the lack of distinction between being good at Maths and being good at teaching Maths. Teaching is about being able to motivate the kids, control discipline and able to get them to be able to do Maths. Being s**t hot at Maths yourself is irrelevant and there are plenty of brilliant teachers out there who are great at the subjects they teach. I just hope that some of ye don't roll into staffrooms claiming how no one is properly qualified because anyone like that who has come into my school thinking their s**t doesn't smell doesn't last too long. I sympathise with those of ye who have completed the Dip on a false promise but that doesn't mean that others should be shoved out of jobs that they are doing very well. It seems the engineers of Ireland want to throw their toys out of the pram about Maths qualifications when maybe they should start from scratch and get the TC to recognise engineers in the first place.


  • #62
    TheDriver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,575 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    Annoyed83, I appreciate your comments and indeed you are correct, every teacher should have a good knowledge of their subject area otherwise they won't teach it right. Though I think my comments are misinterpreted regarding the pram, I don't think any of ye here are being childish, indeed I think ye are being very hard done by especially anyone who got accepted on the Dip but not accepted by TC. Its the Engineers of Ireland I find someone what childish at moment because it seems (and again, its the perception I get) that the assoc are having grieveances when jobs in other areas are disappearing and also instead of saying the lack of "qualified" teachers of maths out there, they should be going straight for the juggler regardnig the qualified engineers are not being accepted. Personally, I feel the engineers of ireland assoc is agrieved becasue they didn't have much input into Project Maths (due possibly to the fact that engineers were very busy in other areas in the boom as was other professions) but this is not a forum as to the merits of any particular organisation and don't want this thread to turn into an after hours type where we all give out about associations. However, I don't feel you or any other teacher here is being childish.
    Lastly, no school can have business teaching business etc etc. Imagine if you could only teach chemistry? or applied maths? We all get given other subjects to make up the hours and maths if one of those subjects along with cspe, sphe etc. If i was Principal in the morning, I know my hands would be tied and idealism would go out the window.


  • #63
    millix
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭millix


    Derek

    I did some scouting around on the TC website and found at
    www.teachingcouncil.ie » Registration » Introduction to Registration
    a document called Registration_Regulations_56873374._resigned_by_Minister_18_Nov_2009pdf.pdf

    On pages 14,15 and 16 where the regulations for post primary teaching are spelled out, it states that an acceptable qualification for registration is one which was previously recognised by the Minister or the Registration Council if it was obtained or started prior to the passing of these regulations.

    ( I copied the text in the strange font below from the top of page 16 of that document )

    My reading of this is that TC could accept degrees obtained in 2009 or earlier, or even started in 2009 or earlier, but are choosing not to.

    Did this come up in any of the discussion you had with them ?

    M



    A quali

    fication or qualifications other than those set forth in 1 or 2 above which, in the opinion of the Teaching Council, is/are of an equivalent standard to that required




    at 1 or 2 above and is suf

    ficient for registration, including qualifi cations previously recognised by the Minister for Education and Science or by the Registration




    Council for the purposes of teaching in a post-primary school per the circulars of the Department of Education and Science provided that the quali

    fication was obtained (or at least the applicant had commenced the course) prior to the passing of these Regulations.



    Derek M wrote: »
    H

    I fought with the TC long and hard over this. I was onto the ASTI, the applied mathematical teachers association, my department here at Uni and the Dean of Engineering here at NUIG. Nothing helped. Maybe I should have went further (Batt O'Keefe when he was minister or something or the media) but to be honest the process was so drawn out that I felt I needed to rectify the situation for myself as soon as possible. I had a part-time job offer and you need TC registration to be correctly employed.

    AT the end of the day the TC has the last word, the government has passed on all responsibility with teacher registration to them. They say who has the correct subjects and to what level. They look at things in black and white and obviously do not understand the content of some of the degrees coming out of the uni's. They told me that they were going to take the Eng degrees off the approvals list but they didn't.

    To get approval your degree needs to be on the list and must satisfy individual subject criteria i.e. that mathematics is major subject (30%) of you degree. They argue that we do not have the correct mathematics to satisfy this requirement. It's not true and I tried to prove them otherwise through their appeals system but failed.

    I agree that the TC needs to be forced on this issue; it is affecting too many people.


  • #64
    clartharlear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 489 ✭✭clartharlear


    I obtained my qualification before the TC even existed. I had a sudden flash of hope there, but they still cover themselves with this "in the opinion of the Teaching Council" loophole. A slippery bunch.

    I had never heard of this before, but I did hear the other day that the "general requirements" document (i.e. the one that lists our degrees) is a direct hand-over from the old Registration Council, whereas the "special requirements" document is the design of the TC.


  • #65
    Derek M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25 ✭Derek M


    Hi Millix,

    I had argued this with the TC but got nowhere. Clartharlear is correct; they seem to have themselves covered with the 'in the opinion of' comment.

    I argued that my qualification had always been accepted by the department of education. Their basically said that they were in charge now and that they don't recognise it.

    In my opinion, some of the staff in the TC are just pen pushers that don't fully understand/care about the content of degrees. Engineering seems to be one of the degrees that have been caught up in the transfer from the department.

    The Autoquals (list of qualified degrees) and the specific subject requirements just don't match. I told the TC council this over two years ago but they can’t be bothered to change it.

    It's too late for me, but I believe Engineering Ireland and the TC will come to some arrangement (when the TC actually decide what it is they require) and either the TC will ease up or the universities will change subjects titles/content.

    Ironically I believe that a BE from DIT is accepted because they list maths as a subject in their third year.


  • #66
    kennan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭kennan


    It seems as I am a bit late in asking this question, but will the TC reply with an additional requirement specified?
    I have just posted off my quals for their assessment, and having seen all the above posts, I believe that I will get a similar reply, but will they tell me what I would require (additional qualifications) to obtain their approval as recognised by the TC..


  • Advertisement
  • #67
    kennan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭kennan


    I have also spent the past 4 months trying to contact the Universities and get the detail required by the TC, but the Universities are having major problems getting anything, I did receive sample course guides, but none of them are specific to the course I did.
    I rang the TC and explained this situation, their reply was to submit what I had and they would review it.
    Has anybody had a similar issue with gathering their course details from the Universities?


  • #68
    millix
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭millix


    Good question - does one size fit all for engineers to "address shortfalls on maths" as perceived by TC, or does everyone get a custom recipe ? is there a distance learning / open university type solution ? what are the specific shortfalls that they have identified ?

    Derek - could you comment on the modules you were advised to take - was this something you proposed to the TC to see if it was acceptable or did they prescribe the course ?

    M
    kennan wrote: »
    It seems as I am a bit late in asking this question, but will the TC reply with an additional requirement specified?
    I have just posted off my quals for their assessment, and having seen all the above posts, I believe that I will get a similar reply, but will they tell me what I would require (additional qualifications) to obtain their approval as recognised by the TC..


  • #69
    Derek M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25 ✭Derek M


    Kenna/Millix,

    I had similar problems when it came to gathering information on the modules I was challenging. In the end I had to contact individual lecturers, dig up old notes and get what I could from the university yearly calenders. The calendars contain an overview of each subject. I submitted lectures, exam papers and exam paper solution to try to highlight to presence of mathematics but it didn't work.

    The TC do recommend further study but it is a little open. In my case the stated that I had to 'undertake one further year of study. leading to a third-level qualification in mathematics'. Some modules were listed but nothing concise. In the end I contacted the Maths department in NUIG and they suggested a program I could join in final year. The TC were agreeable to this.

    In general each applicate will be assessed individually depending on their particular modules. Bear in mind it costs a few hindred euro to get the assessment! General degrees will only be assessed as a whole if the university officially puts the program forward for assessment.


  • #70
    millix
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭millix


    Derek

    is there a course code or module numbers or something like that from the NUIG webpage that you could share with us so that we could see what might need to be done, if the TC is not to be swayed by IEI or any other influence.

    Thanks, M
    Derek M wrote: »
    Kenna/Millix,

    I had similar problems when it came to gathering information on the modules I was challenging. In the end I had to contact individual lecturers, dig up old notes and get what I could from the university yearly calenders. The calendars contain an overview of each subject. I submitted lectures, exam papers and exam paper solution to try to highlight to presence of mathematics but it didn't work.

    The TC do recommend further study but it is a little open. In my case the stated that I had to 'undertake one further year of study. leading to a third-level qualification in mathematics'. Some modules were listed but nothing concise. In the end I contacted the Maths department in NUIG and they suggested a program I could join in final year. The TC were agreeable to this.

    In general each applicate will be assessed individually depending on their particular modules. Bear in mind it costs a few hindred euro to get the assessment! General degrees will only be assessed as a whole if the university officially puts the program forward for assessment.


  • #71
    guysmiley
    Registered Users Posts: 40 ✭guysmiley


    I did an electronic eng degree which is recognised by the TC for computer studies and applied maths. But I was exempted from years 1 and 2 of this degree as I did a diploma beforehand. The TC advised me to submitt my whole academic record for assessment as I didn't do the full recognised degree and as it stands I am not eligable for anything. I also have a taught masters.
    So I spent a fortune and am getting it all assessed for maths, applied maths, computers, and physics. I see that some engineering degrees also have physics on the list. I see that someone mentioned sending in exam papers which I would have done if I thought of this. But anyway I guess I will hear in the next few weeks. Anyone any predictions at to what they will recommend ?
    I actually got offered the PGDE in UCD for this coming September but not in a position to take this at the moment regardless of the outcome from the TC.


  • Advertisement
  • #72
    pathway33
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭pathway33


    With the junior and leaving cert maths syllabi changing in september will the teaching council then have a different set of modules they require people to have passed?


  • #73
    Derek M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25 ✭Derek M


    Millix
    Well I'm not sure in general but in my case I had to undertake a 30 credit programme in Mathematical Studies.

    Basically I tagged onto the end of the Mathematical Studies degree in the Maths department.

    Guysmiley,
    I'm sorry to hear you are in a similar situation but bear in mind it took almost a year and half for my assessment and appeal to go through the channels in the TC. Keep pressure on them if they are delaying with your application.

    Pathway33
    I personally don't think the TC knows what they want themselves so I can't see the new syllabus making any difference.


  • #74
    MathsManiac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭MathsManiac


    I'm surprised they were worried about the topology, as it's hard to see which of their criteria that shortage would fall afoul of. The other demands seem reasonable, if the degrees hadn't covered them in sufficient depth.


  • #75
    millix
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭millix


    If TC accepts you for **one** subject, is that enough - from the point of view of registering as a teacher ?

    I'm thinking of whether I should apply for maths, applied maths or both. If I ask for both and pay the extra could I then decide which gap to close, and choose the most favourable combination of extra credits .. or is this too complicated ?

    M


  • #76
    clartharlear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 489 ✭✭clartharlear


    millix wrote: »
    If TC accepts you for **one** subject, is that enough - from the point of view of registering as a teacher ?

    I'm thinking of whether I should apply for maths, applied maths or both. If I ask for both and pay the extra could I then decide which gap to close, and choose the most favourable combination of extra credits .. or is this too complicated ?

    M
    Do you have the same degree as me? UCC elec eng? I met someone who does, and was registered for applied maths. I applied for both, as did she, and they just came back with two different answers.

    They are ****ing retarded.


  • #77
    millix
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭millix


    Thanks for this - surely once you're over the registration hurdle ( say by registering your subject as applied maths ), there would not be an issue with getting work in a secondary school as either an applied maths or as a maths teacher ( at least from the registration perspective .. ).

    If ( registered ) business teachers teach maths then surely ( registered ) engineers would be fine.. maybe we should ask Craig Barrett or Chris Horn for their views on this

    So I'm thinking of only applying as an applied maths teacher, hopefully in that case working on closing a smaller gap than I would be asked to do if I had to apply as either as a maths teacher or as both. I would prefer applied maths anyway, as the idea of studying topology or groups at a serious level does not appeal to my engineering mind

    >>clartharlear >> Yes, UCC EE - I have applied maths in my final year as 1 subject ( equivalent to 5 credits ), so presumably would have to take 10-20 credits of applied maths courses to close the perceived shortfall and get to the magical 30% ( I'm calculating 30% of 60 credits = 18 credits ) <<<

    M


  • #78
    TheDriver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,575 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    Applied Maths is not maths regarding subjects and indeed youwill find a good number of AM teachers are science and not maths. Also jobs in am are like hens teeth to be honest wouldn't get hopes up too high. Business students I though study maths modules in college (as in the modules are called maths) hence recognised by TC? You must remember once you are in the door with a subject, you can teach other things in the school so a business teacher could get a job handy as theres lot of Biz but go on to teach maths in the school afterwards.
    I think UCC are working on conversion solutions to the whole problem at the moment


  • #79
    millix
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭millix


    I'm not sure what you're saying here - my point is that once the box-ticking requirement of registration is satisfied, either with maths or applied maths ( or some other subject ) then one can look for a job as a secondary school teacher. Once you get a job ( very difficult - agreed ) it's up to the principal at the school to decide whether he or she wants you to teach a certain subject.

    Regarding scarcity of jobs in AM - presumably one would be looking for a job teaching maths or applied maths or both.

    I don't think this thread should go off topic about business teachers, but I can't believe that "business teachers get jobs handy" - is the problem not that there are too many business teachers being qualified, and hence entry quotas to PGDE ?

    The idea of a conversion course at UCC is a nice one - are there details emerging ?

    M
    TheDriver wrote: »
    Applied Maths is not maths regarding subjects and indeed youwill find a good number of AM teachers are science and not maths. Also jobs in am are like hens teeth to be honest wouldn't get hopes up too high. Business students I though study maths modules in college (as in the modules are called maths) hence recognised by TC? You must remember once you are in the door with a subject, you can teach other things in the school so a business teacher could get a job handy as theres lot of Biz but go on to teach maths in the school afterwards.
    I think UCC are working on conversion solutions to the whole problem at the moment


  • #80
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    millix wrote: »
    I'm not sure what you're saying here - my point is that once the box-ticking requirement of registration is satisfied, either with maths or applied maths ( or some other subject ) then one can look for a job as a secondary school teacher. Once you get a job ( very difficult - agreed ) it's up to the principal at the school to decide whether he or she wants you to teach a certain subject.

    Once you are registered in some subject with the TC, a school will be able to employ you and they can then decide themself what they want you to teach.

    However, where i think the problem may arise longterm, is that I don't think the school can employ you to a proper contract position unless you are registered with the TC in the correct subject. So to get a proper contract position (pro-rata or whatever) with just AM registration, I think the contract would have to be for AM. They may well give you extra hours in other subjects, but you would have to be officially contracted as an AM teacher. This wouldn't be a problem for TPT type jobs though afaik.


  • #81
    clartharlear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 489 ✭✭clartharlear


    Check out the facebook group:
    Let Engineers teach Maths in Ireland


  • Advertisement
  • #82
    clartharlear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 489 ✭✭clartharlear


    Oh my god.

    I just got a call from the teaching council saying that they'd send me out my registration details.

    Basically, back-tracking.

    wow.


  • #83
    TheDriver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,575 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    glad to hear it all worked out well in the end!


  • #84
    kennan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭kennan


    For those of you that have had a reply from the TC, are they accurate when it comes to the 12 week response turn around time as quoted.


  • #85
    millix
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭millix


    Has anyone heard back from Teaching Council, having applied to have their BE degrees assessed ?

    Has anything happened with respect to this ? Earlier we heard that someone's EE degree had been accepted ? or was it that the previous decision was rescinded ? Has teaching council explained their decision

    Has anything happened with respect to conversion courses ? Inputs from IEI ?

    M


  • #86
    Derek M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25 ✭Derek M


    Kennan - 12 weeks was not accurate in my case. It was more like a year! But I think I was unlucky.

    Millix - I have just received an update on my situation. As I previously stated my degree (BE from NUIG) was rejected for all subjects. I appealed but was again rejected. I had to undertake further study. The final year of a Mathematical Studies programme from NUIG (through the Arts department).

    I finished the exams in May and got my results last week. I sent the results along with my PGDE transcript (completed last year) and registration form (and a cover clearly stating my case) to the TC. Hopefully that will be me sorted. They had stated that was all I needed. So I've given them their €90 and I just have to wait. Fingers crossed they can process before September.


  • #87
    Potential Teacher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭Potential Teacher


    Hi guys,

    Just hijacking this thread if that's OK! I'm an engineer looking to go back to do the PGDE in September 2011. I e-mailed the TC about possible getting qualified to teach Physics or Technical Drawing but apparently they won't give me pointers until I submit an assessment (which I can't do until I get the HDip). So, well, from reading the horror stories here I'm afraid that I'll end up not being qualified to teach Maths!

    I know the TC changes their minds depending on what they ate that morning, but does anyone know anyone who got their engineering degrees from Trinity (BA BAI) who was accepted by the Teaching Council for Maths/Applied Maths? My maths courses in college were entitled 'engineering mathematics' which, again from reading, might help a bit.

    Thanks for the help.


  • #88
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    Potential Teacher wrote: »
    Hi guys,

    Just hijacking this thread if that's OK! I'm an engineer looking to go back to do the PGDE in September 2011. I e-mailed the TC about possible getting qualified to teach Physics or Technical Drawing but apparently they won't give me pointers until I submit an assessment (which I can't do until I get the HDip). So, well, from reading the horror stories here I'm afraid that I'll end up not being qualified to teach Maths!

    I know the TC changes their minds depending on what they ate that morning, but does anyone know anyone who got their engineering degrees from Trinity (BA BAI) who was accepted by the Teaching Council for Maths/Applied Maths? My maths courses in college were entitled 'engineering mathematics' which, again from reading, might help a bit.

    Thanks for the help.

    You can apply to have your undergraduate degree assessed for eligibility to teach a subject at any time.

    You need to fill out this form:

    http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/_fileupload/TC_AppForms/PPQA-01PostPrimaryQualificationsAssessmentForm_21884810.pdf

    and pay €200 to have them assess one subject, and €75 for any additional subjects. They require lots of documentation along with the form such as: parchment, transcripts, the syllabus of the course from the years you did it(with descriptions of each module and the hours spent on each module in lectures/labs/tutorials).


  • #89
    pathway33
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭pathway33


    Potential Teacher wrote: »
    Hi guys,

    Just hijacking this thread if that's OK! I'm an engineer looking to go back to do the PGDE in September 2011. I e-mailed the TC about possible getting qualified to teach Physics or Technical Drawing but apparently they won't give me pointers until I submit an assessment (which I can't do until I get the HDip). So, well, from reading the horror stories here I'm afraid that I'll end up not being qualified to teach Maths!

    I know the TC changes their minds depending on what they ate that morning, but does anyone know anyone who got their engineering degrees from Trinity (BA BAI) who was accepted by the Teaching Council for Maths/Applied Maths? My maths courses in college were entitled 'engineering mathematics' which, again from reading, might help a bit.

    Thanks for the help.

    The trinity BAI is on the approved list to teach maths and applied maths
    http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/_fileupload/TC_Publications/Autoquals_updated_16th_April_2010_59583648.pdf page 34


  • #90
    clartharlear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 489 ✭✭clartharlear


    pathway33 wrote: »
    The trinity BAI is on the approved list to teach maths and applied maths
    http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/_fileupload/TC_Publications/Autoquals_updated_16th_April_2010_59583648.pdf page 34
    We know well at this stage that the approved list means nothing! It's the special conditions that matter - 30% of ALL modules taken in the final three years (first year of a 4 year degree doesn't count) have to have mathematics in the title. (e.g. a maths-heavy subject like control doesn't count)

    It might help if you didn't graduate from your degree recently. That approved list is from the dept of education, from before the TC's time. I think that might have been my loophole.


  • Advertisement
  • #91
    awny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 286 ✭✭awny


    clartharlear wrote: »
    30% of ALL modules taken in the final three years (first year of a 4 year degree doesn't count) have to have mathematics in the title. (e.g. a maths-heavy subject like control doesn't count)

    They dont necessarily have to have Maths in their title. I have a BSc an Mathematical Sciences but I had to have my degree assessed as the TC said I couldnt teach Maths...in the end I got approved to teach Maths and Applied Maths. Below are the modules I studied im my last 3 years of my degree, not much Maths in their titles.
    • Linear Analysis
    • Probability Theory
    • Vector Analysis
    • Ordinary Differential Equations
    • Object Orientated Programming
    • Intro to Numerical Analysis
    • Operations Research 1
    • Theoretical Mechanics
    • Partial Differential Equations
    • Numerical Computation
    • Statistical Inference
    • Stochastic Processes
    • Advanced Data Analysis
    • Linear Algebra 2
    • Numerical Partial Differential Equations
    • Operations Research 2
    • Experimental Design
    • Applied Analysis
    • Fundamentals of Financial Maths
    • Time Series Analysis
    • Advanced Data Modelling
    • Quality Control
    • Theory of Statistical Finance
    So if you have modules like these youll be in with a good chance of getting your degree recognised for Maths.


  • #92
    clartharlear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 489 ✭✭clartharlear


    OK, I might have been exaggerating slightly for the effect of showing what idiots the TC are, but it was really unnecessary when they couldn't tell that someone with a degree in MATHEMATICAL science could teach maths. ffs

    I have to step out of this thread again. I am generally an extremely calm person, but thoughts of the TC give me the rage.


  • #93
    millix
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭millix


    I heard back after approx 11 weeks. BE elec degree does not meet etc etc, for either maths or applied maths. Must do further study to close gap ....

    can apply for second independent assessment at further cost of 75 per subject

    so clartharlear's case appears to be the exception

    interesting to hear of any other applicants

    M


  • #94
    awny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 286 ✭✭awny


    mine took 16 weeks, that was earlier this year!


  • #95
    clartharlear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 489 ✭✭clartharlear


    millix wrote: »
    I heard back after approx 11 weeks. BE elec degree does not meet etc etc, for either maths or applied maths. Must do further study to close gap ....

    can apply for second independent assessment at further cost of 75 per subject

    so clartharlear's case appears to be the exception

    interesting to hear of any other applicants

    M
    the word exception implies there is a rule, rather than random ****witted incompetence.

    the key word arbitrary, i'd say.


  • #96
    Sean Mac Giolla Iasachta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭Sean Mac Giolla Iasachta


    I am not personally happy about the situation described here, as it looks as though one of my career options (as a recently unemployed engineer) is harder to get into than I expected.

    However, when I examine my conscience, I realise that ability in mathematics is not sufficient for a job in teaching. If Maths is as important as everyone says it is, then we need quality teachers, and there must be standards.

    If the criterion for admission to the teaching profession (as a maths teacher) was that your degree should have the word maths in the title, what would that produce???

    Engineers Ireland imposes similar restrictions. If you have an IEI-accredited degree, you are OK. If not, however well qualified you are (in Physics, say), and however well respected as a practising professional, they will be after you to jump additional hurdles to get your CEng.

    It is hard to see what else the bureaucrats can do. They can't just let anybody in, on their own say-so.

    One possibility: let Eng Ireland get accreditation for a conversion course for engineers, producing qualified maths teachers. <mod>Insult removed.</mod>


  • Advertisement
  • #97
    millix
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭millix


    not sure what you're trying to say here, and your last sentence makes me reach for the "ignore" button

    M
    Sean Mac Giolla Iasachta wrote: »
    I am not personally happy about the situation described here, as it looks as though one of my career options (as a recently unemployed engineer) is harder to get into than I expected.

    However, when I examine my conscience, I realise that ability in mathematics is not sufficient for a job in teaching. If Maths is as important as everyone says it is, then we need quality teachers, and there must be standards.

    If the criterion for admission to the teaching profession (as a maths teacher) was that your degree should have the word maths in the title, what would that produce???

    Engineers Ireland imposes similar restrictions. If you have an IEI-accredited degree, you are OK. If not, however well qualified you are (in Physics, say), and however well respected as a practising professional, they will be after you to jump additional hurdles to get your CEng.

    It is hard to see what else the bureaucrats can do. They can't just let anybody in, on their own say-so.

    One possibility: let Eng Ireland get accreditation for a conversion course for engineers, producing qualified maths teachers. <mod edit>


  • #98
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,263 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    millix wrote: »
    not sure what you're trying to say here, and your last sentence makes me reach for the "ignore" button

    M

    Agreed.
    However low a person's posting record is, insulting other members will not be tolerated.
    Please read the charter.
    Consider this a warning, Sean Mac Giolla Iasachta.


  • #99
    monkeerina
    Registered Users Posts: 77 ✭✭monkeerina


    Anyone know of anyone who did the above course and was okayed by the Teaching Council? Coz I've a place next year but def not wasting my time if I'm just going to be told I can't teach next year...I'll do a dip now this year and get that out of the way first!
    Any advice would be much appreciated....


  • #100
    Curveball
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭Curveball


    Hi Guys,

    I have read through all the posts in this form. Yes indeed we are been left in limbo land with regards eligibility for accreditation.

    We can apply alright and get our primary degree assessed for what subjects we intend on been eligible to teach.

    We are all banging our heads off the wall wondering how and why the teaching council cannot post a list of what degree is accreditated to teach whatever subject.

    It really is baffling and extremely irritating.

    I too have secured and accepted a place for the pgde in NUIG starting Sept 3rd this year. My primary degree is a BE Civil Degree from Nuig. Can anyone tell what subjects that accredits me to teach without me going through the whole hulabuloo, cost and annoyance of submitting an application to find out.

    During my time as a civil engineer I have also practiced in depth 3d design and I am also proficient in the use of drafting software. Surely one would think that I would have the ability and know how and relevant backgroung to teach tech drawing.

    If anyone else is in a similar position as me I would like to hear from you.

    Thanks


  • #101
    TheDriver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,575 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    Curveball wrote: »
    During my time as a civil engineer I have also practiced in depth 3d design and I am also proficient in the use of drafting software. Surely one would think that I would have the ability and know how and relevant backgroung to teach tech drawing.

    Can't help you about your subjects but I would like to add that experience in a subject matters squat unfortunately much the same as someone from the Gaeltacht can't teach Irish. Its down to criteria for each subject and whether you have fulfilled it.


  • Advertisement
Advertisement