First Jack O'Connor, now David Begg - are the unions scared of FG

Lockstep · 20-02-2011 2:14pm

ftnbase wrote: »

There are not too many Unions coming out to support FF, FG or SF.

The Unions were Labourites until they got on the Bertie Bandwagon for their own sake - there is no money left for the junkets so they are retrenching back to their roots in the hope that Gilmore and Labour will give them more handouts for their support.

Lest we forget many members of the old Workers Party (now Labour) were trade union officials.

Nothing changes.

Which unions are coming out in favour of Labour? Apart from SIPTU and IMPACT (who are both affiliated to Labour).

Permabear · 20-02-2011 2:21pm

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Lockstep · 20-02-2011 2:25pm

Permabear wrote: »

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Labour are still on a fair surge right now!
THey've dipped a bit in the polls but are still well, well above the 10% that they got in 2007, or even the 14% they got in 2009.

Permabear · 20-02-2011 2:32pm

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ftnbase · 20-02-2011 2:33pm

Lockstep wrote: »

Which unions are coming out in favour of Labour? Apart from SIPTU and IMPACT (who are both affiliated to Labour).

What about ICTU's Mr. Begg? ICTU represent more that SIPTU/IMPACT.

Lockstep · 20-02-2011 2:37pm

Permabear wrote: »

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As they're still polling over 20%? They havn't seen numbers like this since the Spring Tide.

ftnbase wrote: »

What about ICTU's Mr. Begg? ICTU represent more that SIPTU/IMPACT.

Is he backing Labour for the election?
I fully agree that ICTU represent more than SIPTU and IMPACT. Which is why I'll ask again which unions are backing Labour, apart from the ones who are already affiliated to them.

liveline · 20-02-2011 2:49pm

Lockstep wrote: »

As they're still polling over 20%? They havn't seen numbers like this since the Spring Tide.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0930/1224279988420.html

33% in September

A significant decline I would say

Lockstep · 20-02-2011 2:51pm

Yes, it is indeed a decline but it is still a very high level of support for Labour, they're currently polling over double what they got in 2007.

Permabear · 20-02-2011 3:11pm

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Lockstep · 20-02-2011 3:22pm

Permabear wrote: »

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Whereas today's Millward Brown Poll puts them on 20% and Tuesday's poll puts them on 23%.

Their vote has been fluctuating between 17% and 24% since the start of the month.

Permabear · 20-02-2011 3:29pm

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blue_steel · 20-02-2011 3:31pm

Permabear wrote: »

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Yeah because those disenfranchised former PD voters were always gonna turn to Labour weren't they

Whatever happens Labour are now the second biggest party in the state. Add to that a surging SF support and half a dozen ULA tds and a left wing government isn't far away.
Gilmore should go into opposition after the election and force FG to do a deal with FF. This will finally destroy the pretence that there is any difference between them, force an eventual amalgamation and lead to a right / left political divide like any normal country.

Lockstep · 20-02-2011 3:33pm

Permabear wrote: »

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Permabear wrote: »

But I would note that Red C had the most accurate pre-election polls in 2007. And they have Labour on 17 percent and trending downwards—which, given Gilmore's poor debate showings and the apparent backfiring of the unions' endorsement, seems pretty accurate to me. No way will Labour get 23 percent of the vote now.

The aggregate of polls puts Labour's support on around 19 and a half %, including their poll from this Thursday also had them on 17%. Not exactly trending downward.

Gilmore's debate showings weren't poor, he did well, as did all the other leaders. However, Gilmore went in with high expectations on him.
He did especially well in the TG4 debate. Did you see it?

Permabear · 20-02-2011 3:38pm

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liveline · 20-02-2011 3:41pm

blue_steel wrote: »

Yeah because those disenfranchised former PD voters were always gonna turn to Labour weren't they

Isn't Mae Sexton running for Labour?

blue_steel · 20-02-2011 3:45pm

Permabear wrote: »

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Never say never. If you seriously think that Ireland, alone from every country in Europe, will never have a socialist government you are deluding yourself.

Permabear · 20-02-2011 3:47pm

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gerryo777 · 20-02-2011 3:58pm

A prime example of unions messing things up is if you look at aer lingus & ryanair.
One is a company that even in a recession is making good profits, expanding its market, has one of the most modern fleets in the airline industry and is not bogged down by disputes, the other is aer lingus!!
Thank you jack oconnor & david begg for making my mind up about who I'll vote for next friday, up until last week it was going to be my local labour man but now, no chance! Not saying that it'll be FG but defo not FF or labour!

Permabear · 20-02-2011 3:59pm

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Permabear · 20-02-2011 4:06pm

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blue_steel · 20-02-2011 4:12pm

Permabear wrote: »

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Yes we will. FF are a spent force, exposed as the self-serving parasites they are. The grey vote will get them over the line in a few rural constituencies but lack of transfers will relegate them to sub 20 seats and relegated to bit players in the next Dail. Labour are the second biggest party in the state, just check the numbers in those polls you espouse so much.

blue_steel · 20-02-2011 4:14pm

Permabear wrote: »

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Things change. Electorates mature.

Permabear · 20-02-2011 4:18pm

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Permabear · 20-02-2011 4:21pm

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blue_steel · 20-02-2011 4:25pm

Permabear wrote: »

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No flip-flopping between two populist parties whose only difference is what side their grandads fought on in a civil war a hundred years ago is a sign of an immature electorate.

Permabear · 20-02-2011 4:31pm

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blue_steel · 20-02-2011 4:35pm

Permabear wrote: »

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And when exactly was The Wealth of Nations written again? Now where's that pot and kettle cartoon gone...

Permabear · 20-02-2011 4:39pm

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blue_steel · 20-02-2011 5:04pm

Permabear wrote: »

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And who, apart from RBB, is a Trotskyite? I thought we were talking about the Labour party here. Lets just see how the results pan out. I still maintain Labour will finish with more seats than FF.

ftnbase · 20-02-2011 5:15pm

blue_steel wrote: »

And who, apart from RBB, is a Trotskyite? I thought we were talking about the Labour party here. Lets just see how the results pan out. I still maintain Labour will finish with more seats than FF.

Agree with blue-steel that Labour will will get more seats than FF - unless there will be a late surge for FF (from 15% to 17%!!!!!). But why is Labour's measure of sucess based on it's comparison with other parties rather than its own goals - or is the problem that it does not have any goals?

liveline · 20-02-2011 6:01pm

blue_steel wrote: »

No flip-flopping between two populist parties whose only difference is what side their grandads fought on in a civil war a hundred years ago is a sign of an immature electorate.

I agree with this but the reality is there is no viable alternative. We need a new political party that is centre-right on economic policy and liberal on social policy. There is a strong appetite for this, particularly in Dublin.

Black Bloc · 20-02-2011 9:23pm

It is not called socialism in Ireland but as good as - the state's share of economic activity is 60%. During the UK elections last year even the UK Labour party there had to admit that government expenditure was too great at approximately 53% of GNP. The Croke Park deal with push up state involvement in the economy and it is only sustainable through higher taxes which in turn will depress private sector spending, etc. Gilmore and Burton don't have a difficulty tax those earning over a 100K to pay for the Croke Park deal. Maybe they should think about not paying tribunal costs as well. Smoked salmon socialism, don't you love it.

jank · 20-02-2011 11:30pm

blue_steel wrote: »

And when exactly was The Wealth of Nations written again? Now where's that pot and kettle cartoon gone...

The wealth of Nations provided a blue print for free market economics.

The latest polls show the meltdown for Labour. Come one Jack, one more outburst and you will push FG over the line!

Permabear · 20-02-2011 11:42pm

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CDfm · 21-02-2011 12:23am

I hate to quote Eoghan Harris - but he had a summary of Fintan O'Toole's book

Eoghan Harris: Public-sector wealth can only lead to private decay

Sunday November 07 2010

ENOUGH is enough. That's the title of Fintan O'Toole's book of aspirations for a new Ireland. Like my mother's aspirations -- Sweet Heart of Jesus, I place all my trust in Thee -- its pious platitudes are attempts to escape the problems of the real world.
Fintan sets out five aspirations; security, equality, education, health, citizenship. I could make a wish-list too. But I would feel a fraud if I failed to point out -- as Fintan fails --that all ambitions are hot air unless we cut public-sector pay and pensions back to 2003 levels.
The book sidles past this fundamental problem as if it were peripheral. The index does not even have an entry on it. No "public sector: scandal of" or even "reform of". It's like a book on Northern Ireland that never mentions religion.
Let me put a bush in that gap. The burden of public pay and pensions is the elephant in the room, the fattest of the fat cats, the problem that transcends all problems. As generalities are the enemy of good politics, let me explain why, using one euro, 100 cents, for clarity.
Out of every 100 cents it spends, the State spends 30 cents on public-service pay and pensions. Out of every 100 cents it takes in tax, it spends 60 on public-sector pay and pensions. The forthcoming Budget is fundamentally about wiping up whatever is little is left after the public-sector fat cats have finished their big bowl of cream.
The Budget will ask the poor, the sick and the old to pay for the paid, pensioned and the permanently employed. This is a scandal. The Government could find the €6bn it needs by simply cutting back public pay and pensions to 2003 levels. No tax hikes, no tormenting of old-age pensioners, no picking the pockets of the poor.
So why doesn't it do it? Because the political and media classes are afraid of the public sector. Last week the Dail and RTE were delighted to debate any distraction -- McDaid, Moriarty, Merkel -- anything except talk about the enormous elephant in the room, which is eating most of our resources.
Let me prove that. Mary Harney cannot cut into the 70 per cent of her health budget because it is marked for the pay and pensions. Mary Coughlan cannot cut into the 90 per cent of her education budget that is marked for teacher pay and pensions. Both will have to cut into the little that is left.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/eoghan-harris/eoghan-harris-publicsector-wealth-can-only-lead-to-private-decay-2410689.html

Some social partners !!!!!!!!

blue_steel · 26-02-2011 12:30pm

Permabear wrote: »

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Guess we are seeing today alright. Enjoy oblivion

CDfm · 26-02-2011 12:47pm

blue_steel wrote: »

Guess we are seeing today alright. Enjoy oblivion

Well we are going to see.

It is not just today.

Fine Gael have thrown down a marker that they are going to tackle the problems.

If it goes into coallition with Labour then deals with the Unions etc and the Coallition will be done behind closed doors.

The Electorate will have been duped because we already know the outcome.

AFAIK - nobody has voted for a FG/Labour Coallition.

tomo536 · 26-02-2011 1:15pm

Rookster wrote: »

Cop on! Prison officers are screwing the system big time. With overtime (which they all seem to be on) their earnings are well over 100k per annum.A nurse ( best paid in the world) working in St James's on a saturday night will get a week off in return for working a week of nights. The firemen who are also cleaning up (as was reported recently) should not be in the job if he is affected by fatal road crashes. Plenty of other guys will do it.
Yes, poor public service!

Im not here to pick up for the public service,but i just want to make couple of points,firstly im a firefighter and am sick to death of people saying we are on astronomical wages.There are a few of my friends who are on a three day week who are taking home more pay than what im on,with their wages and what they get off the dole.I work a lot of unsocialable hours and the likes of christmas,which i have not had off for fifteen years.So you tell me what the hell is wrong with this country when someone works a three day week and gets more than people who are working a full week.You also made comment about nurses which is totally wrong,as far as i can remember they work a full week of nights then they have a week off.The prisoner officers are earning good wages on overtime but if you dont have enough staff you have to bring them in on overtime.And for your very flippant remark about the guy dealing with fatal car crashes,if he does not like it get someone else to do it.I will tell you now i am 28 years a firefighter and some of the grusome deaths you come across,no training can prepare you for them,and not everyone can deal with these situations.By the way what do you work at?

tomo536 · 26-02-2011 1:22pm

Nelson Muntz wrote: »

The unions & PS defenders love to hide behind front line workers when discussing the cost of the PS.

Do they think the general population is stupid? No one is saying get rid of nurses or guards or firemen. It is the 3000 people in the HSE that don't even know what their job is & 3000 people in the HSE HR dept that should be trimmed down.

Despite what the beardies tell you, there are plenty of useless admin staff in the PS that serve no purpose.

The fire service could be trimmed,there are too many chiefs not enough indians

CDfm · 26-02-2011 1:34pm

I work in Sales and work unsociable hours and my income is substatialy lower than it was and costs higher etc.

At least one of my friends working in sales commited suicide since the recession started as his gas was cut off and mortgage was in arrears. The house was a very modest semi-d.

I knew 5 or 6 others who are recession suicides/ unexplained deaths and it was a cluster. The unifying factor was private sector workers who were broke.

So when I see nurses or firefighters or teachers complain I do not have any sympathy because they are so well off.

@tomo536 If a person is too sensitive or squeamish to be a firefighter then they are in the wrong job. There are loads of people who are not squeamish. Its what you get paid for and it is in the job description. I would not expect a vegan to be an abattoir butcher.

th3 s1aught3r · 26-02-2011 1:38pm

Cannot understand why so many voted for Labour when they are in bed with the public sector unions

tomo536 · 26-02-2011 1:44pm

CDfm wrote: »

I work in Sales and work unsociable hours and my income is substatialy lower than it was and costs higher etc.

At least one of my friends working in sales commited suicide since the recession started as his gas was cut off and mortgage was in arrears. The house was a very modest semi-d.

I knew 5 or 6 others who are recession suicides/ unexplained deaths and it was a cluster. The unifying factor was private sector workers who were broke.

So when I see nurses or firefighters or teachers complain I do not have any sympathy because they are so well off.

@tomo536 If a person is too sensitive or squeamish to be a firefighter then they are in the wrong job. There are loads of people who are not squeamish. Its what you get paid for and it is in the job description. I would not expect a vegan to be an abattoir butcher.

Im not squeamish but there have been lot of incidents i have attended that have affected me when i thought they would not.Also i can tell you im not well off on the wages i earn.There has also afew firefighters who have commited suicide over last few years

CDfm · 26-02-2011 2:30pm

tomo536 wrote: »

Im not squeamish but there have been lot of incidents i have attended that have affected me when i thought they would not.Also i can tell you im not well off on the wages i earn.There has also afew firefighters who have commited suicide over last few years

It isnt the glamour job as is portrayed in the media.

Where I grew up -as with the lifeboat -it was voluntary.

You have to be very robust to deal with those situations and they are not for everybody. As I have gotten older I have no problems with those things in real life- asI can switch off - but I just cant watch them on telly.!!!

Because modern life is so sanitised - death & disease for younger people is very shocking -whereas I saw my first body pulled out of the quays at age 9.

loike · 26-02-2011 2:52pm

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

Cannot understand why so many voted for Labour when they are in bed with the public sector unions

public sector workers who want what is best for them?

CDfm · 26-02-2011 4:18pm

loike wrote: »

public sector workers who want what is best for them?

the public service workers want the most money for a mediocre service.

We pump in 50% more money into the Health Service then we should have for a country of our size.

The reality is for the money we are paying for the Health Service we should have a free of charge NHS and thats what we should have with none of this Dutch Insurance crap.

First Jack O'Connor, now David Begg - are the unions scared of FG

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