"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

Aard wrote: »

They should make it so that it's impossible for somebody to get two Leap fares within one minute of each other. It would completely avoid people being overcharged.

Except that that goes against the bizarre idea that Leap Card Users should also be able to pay for accompanying passengers on their card.

The TIM seems to allow the driver to manually enter a fare via key pad and hit execute

1.40 is not a valid valid for any LEAP product

It would be interesting to get a Dublin Bus history print out from the card to see what the card recorded the charge as and indeed the to/from stage numbers

Bumblebee Man wrote: »

In relation to this; I placed the card on the reader and said €1.25 please and waited until the driver said "Go ahead" before removing the card.

My experience too. Regardless, I can't see how removing a card early (or a temporary loss of contact) could/should ever cause a cash fare to be deducted.

Dravokivich wrote: »

Charged at cash fare.

It looks like they're all charged at Leap rates to me - attached is a pic of me and two other people making a €1.40 cash / €1.25 Leap trip on Dublin Bus.

goingnowhere wrote: »

Any fare issued off a leap card is the leap fare, you could even get tickets of different values in theory.

The second and subsequent tickets issued are treated differently by the card for various auditing purposes which impact on the counters for capping.

The pay for companions idea is an excellent one and one of the few,if only,parts of this sorry saga which is worth promoting.

In the recent past I have noticed a significant amount of Husband/Wife , Boyfriend/Girlfriend trips now being made on one card particularly at weekends.

It's a great selling point TBO,and even useful to the likes of Teachers bringing class groups on outings etc.

Plus it gives the Leap discount to all fares charged to the card,but as Goingnowhere sez,only the first fare (The Cardholders) would count towards the appropriate cap.

bk: Clearly people from the NTA are listening to us here on boards (hi guys), these two issues have been constantly raised here on boards. These two problems should never have happened, they should have been working from day one.

The NTA folks may trawl through Boards,but in this case the "Instant Top-Up" has been on the T's & C's right from the get-go with a committment to introduce in the future.

HOWEVER...If we are seeing unexplained errors with Leap vs Cash fare issues then it may well cause potential customers to balk at allowing the same Leapcard direct access to their bank-account via Direct Debit.

(d) The Authority will set a minimum Travel Credit balance (the “threshold”) from time to time. With Auto Top-Up, when a Leap Card customer’s Travel Credit balance falls below the threshold, the Leap Card will be automatically reloaded with Leap Card customer’s pre-selected reload value (the “reload value”), and simultaneously an instruction will automatically be sent to debit the reload value from the Account. The initial threshold is set at €15.00.

(e) During the application for Auto Top-Up, Leap Card customers may designate a reload value (e.g. €20.00, €30.00, €40.00 or €50.00). The Leap Card customer may not change the reload value once Auto Top-Up has been enabled.

Those are quite substantial reload values to have locked yourself into and with this in mind the absolute integrity of the basic system is definitely a pre-requesite.

12 years on,this stuff should never have made it to the Platform,this is what spending €40 million on various consultants,experts and soothsayers was meant to avoid !!

This entire issue has the capability to sink Leapcard if it's not addressed NOW.

The card will be valid on all commuter Bus Eireann services to/from Dublin, i.e. all routes in the 100 number range

Bumblebee Man wrote: »

Same happened to me yesterday. Wasn't sure yesterday until I double checked my account. Shouldn't seem possible?

Can you ask a driver to print a statement for you?

foggy_lad wrote: »

Even before they can add weekly/monthly/yearly tickets or even travel90 tickets!

Nobody said that. You mightn't like the project, but there is no need to make stuff up.

Bumblebee Man wrote: »

I wasn't paying much attention at the time so didn't really notice it until i checked my account history online.

I assumed I'd be charged at the lowest fare anyway as the bus would've been nearing the end of the route €1.25/€1.40 was the max I was going to be charged.

It's only 15c at the end of the day but will be keeping a closer eye on it in future.

Potentially 15c x 50,000 x ???

You can get a printed statement for the last 5 transactions.

The-Rigger wrote: »

So the 1.90's I've been charged aren't even a leap fare, the leap fare is 1.95?

Exactly,Rigger....this is what now makes me suspect a programming error in the TIM's,similar to what caused the remote validator to deduct €2.40 in the week immediately after Christmas while the actual fare was €2.20.

This issue really does cut to the heart of the entire programme,as if the NTA cannot stand over the integrity of Leapcard in this respect,then few,if any,sensible persons will grant them the power of Direct Debit over their bank accounts.

markpb wrote: »

If Dublin Bus program their ticket machines wrong, I don't see how you can blame the NTA. The card is designed to allow operators to deduct whatever amount they want - If DBs machines charge the wrong amount, there's nothing Leap or the NTA can do.

All quite correct assuming the error (If any) is in the T.I.M System and not perhaps the actual programme itself or the HP back-end operation.

I do not have enough information to give anything other than opinion,which I presume is your own position Markpb ?

As I'm not I.T.qualified I will refrain from ascribing blame,if thats what we need,but I have no hesitation in describing the seriousness of a problem with symptoms such as these.

On the other side I have had no fare category problems at all,with my major copncerns remaining the delay on Card presentation and the lack of audible advice of Fare Deduction...fix these and I'm good to go...:D

Victor wrote: »

The manifestation of the problem appears to be on the bus, the back office system is merely recording what happened.

I would point my finger at whoever is programming / checking the TIMs (aka ETMs).

It's whatiffery for sure,but in the absence of any formal response from DB/NTA/HP I'm posing the ?...what if the programme as delivered to DB for installation onto its Wayfarer system is buggy..?

From my lofty perspective,it's looking as if the vast majority of the ITS budget has been spent over the past 12 years on ......well we don't really know do we ?

Thus,at the most important point in proceedings,the actual public launch,we appear to have €1.99 left in the kitty to fund actual responses to operational problems.

There is something scarily cheap'n nasty about the entire LeapCard brand image...It simply does not grab you and draw you in....even down to the colour and logo...It's largely impossible to spot a LeapCard agent from a distance as the watery green and white colouring does not stand out from the other window brand embellishments.....contrast that with DB's own Hi-Viz Yella n Black which is recognisable in the gloom or clutter of the retail environment.

Much of LeapCard's potential for succes hinges on Public Acceptance of it's merits.

At the moment,these merits are more potential than actual,with ease of Top-Up being one of the most desirable.

However,the public awareness of security issues surrounding Bank Account details will mean the same public will not be too keen to expose their finances to potential error ridden automated transactions initiated by a LeapCard system of somewhat shaky mathematical prowess.

If LeapCard customers are seeing an all too regular automated overcharge a lá €1.90/€1.70 then they cannot be blamed if they are reluctant to give Mr LeapCard direct access to their own Bank Accounts...can they ?

It's really a quite pathetic display of Senior Governmental figures,Engineers,Accountants,Planners,Senior Civil-Servants deciding to embark on a huge game-changing project 12 years ago whilst having ZERO interest in the actual,on-the-ground operational realities of Public Transport-Irish Style.

The huge amount of debate we now see on Boards and elsewhere is/was totally avoidable had the ITIB begun re-writing the alphabet at the letter "A" rather than flipping on to "Z" and hoping for the best.

Right now,if the Bus problems are to be addressed in a rapid and all-encompassing manner then Flat-BusFare is the only way....any other fix will eventually cost everybody a bomb !

foggy_lad wrote: »

The public will soon tire of ringing leap customer care and being directed to Dublin bus who will tell them there is no €1.40 leap fare, when they go looking for a refund of the overcharges. How long was it before Dublin bus put their hands up to the previous incidents were there was mistakes programming machines?

If the NTA and Dublin bus can mess up a few fares on so many customer accounts how could they ever be allowed access to customers bank details?

They spent millions scheming up unbreakable security for leap accounts including some like weekly/monthly top-up limits that make it unworkable for many, but neglected to protect customers from the thief within!

A couple of issues raised here,in true Foggy_Lad style...

Firstly,nobody has put their hands up to anything,as far as the official version goes,the LeapCard introduction is progressing just swimmingly,thank you very much Foggy....

Secondly,in the absence of any form of supportive evidence I would suggest the use of terms such as "Thief" may well be unsustainable,as well as a tad unfair on ordinary staff tasked with operating a possibly unstable system....speaking for myself,I most certainly would not have superimposed LeapCard on to the current Dublin Bus system in it's current mode.....does this make me a "Thief" my Foggy friend? ....pause before answering this one ...;)

AlekSmart wrote: »

I do not have enough information to give anything other than opinion,which I presume is your own position Markpb ?

Nope, I have no more information than you but a quick look at the project to date shows that Dublin Bus are by far an away the poorest part of the team. Yes, they have the most complicated system for legacy reasons but take a look at the list:

- complicated fare structure made more complicated by the double matrix of walk-on fares and two different ways of paying with Leap onboard
- poor user experience when using the drivers ticket machine
- poor or no staff training
- one definite instance of ticket machine misconfiguration
- one possible case of ticket machine misconfiguration
- poor refund system to deal with the last two problems

No-one but Dublin Bus can be blamed for any item on the list. The inability to collect online purchased tickets on board is also Dublin Buses fault but that one can be partly excused, the project was still in its infancy when the new machines were bought.

Rightly or wrongly, the aims of the project were to built a system which integrates the tickets for each of the existing operators. It doesn't take control from DB, it doesn't tell DB how to operate or what tickets to sell, it just provides a new mechanism for customers to carry their tickets or cash. Therefore if there's a problem with Leap on Dublin Bus, the fault lies almost entirely with Dublin Bus.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Joe Duffy uses leap card on RTE photocopier! How is the photocopier able to read details off the leap card??

It can't.

Lapin wrote: »

By the way, a question. Is there daily price capping with the Leap?

Not yet, but it will happen.

foggy_lad wrote: »

He accidentally placed his leap card on the reader instead of the rte supplied photocopier card on the rte photocopier and it read his name off the card and allowed him use the photocopier!

I presume he actually presented the machine with his wallet full of cards and it read the correct one. How would the card know his name? One would be more worried about RTÉ's security if this happened.

foggy_lad wrote: »

No, that is another feature that is on the coming soon list.

I don't think anyone has brought up being overcharged by Dublin bus drivers validators yet on liveline.

Correct Foggy,but that's probably due to only a miniscule number of the 50,000 + Leapcard users actually having encountered this issue,with quite possibly neither of them actually able to Talk-to-Joe today,,?